Balance self damage debuffs. Eldritch and RM vs Wizard

Right now the wizard earth line allows them to have the top debuff for their own damage in the same line.
They can top matter debuff for a matter based bolt and matter based DoT...all in the Earth spec line.
Having debuff and dmg in the same spec line is something a bit over the top. Every other debuff caster has debuffs for a damage type they either do not have or in another line so they can not top spec both the debuff and damage. The earth wizard does not have this restriction.

To fix this imbalance I suggest that making one of the Eldritch bolts match the damage type they can debuff for in the void line or allow them to debuff for their lower delve void spec DD. And the same for RMs. If being able to have top debuff and top dmg spell in the same spec line is going to exist, at least one caster from each realm should be able to do it.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 2:05 PM by Spiegal

Yes to balance realm, this has been sayed multiple time and that change was biased. Self debuff in the same line is too op.

To be honest, I would much prefer that they change the matter debuff than changing other realms classes.
Wiz will still be a top tier class for zerg without that debuff.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 7:42 PM by ExcretusMaximus

What Wizard takes the time to debuff a target before applying a DoT?

If they had a nuke you might have a point, but they don't, unless you count the AE one, and debuffing for that isn't all that great.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:52 AM by Spiegal

It's not a single Dot...
It's the bolt, the double dot (aoe and single), the aoe snare.

And guess what,
They still get that 50 debuff or their secondary DD either cold or Heat no matter the spec. Cmon now...

Fri 7 Aug 2020 4:18 AM by gotwqqd

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:52 AM
It's not a single Dot...
It's the bolt, the double dot (aoe and single), the aoe snare.

And guess what,
They still get that 50 debuff or their secondary DD either cold or Heat no matter the spec. Cmon now...

And yet it’s still one of the least played caster classes of all realms

Fri 7 Aug 2020 11:57 AM by Centenario

Remove stun from hib casters, you can slam from range and DD from range, too OP!

Fri 7 Aug 2020 12:50 PM by Siouxsie

Runemaster (Runecarving: 48)
Can debuff: 50% Cold, Heat, Matter (Vex of Ice debuff listeing in charplanner says 8 seconds.. not 15.. is this a typo?)
Baseline Cold nuke ("Obsidian Strike": 179.5 dd)
ALL the damage types in the Runecarving line are "Energy" type.
The Heat and Matter debuffs don't help the Runemaster at all.

Wizard (Earth Magic: 48)
Dreams of the Wastes - 50% matter debuff - duration 15 seconds (they also get heat and cold debuffs)
Lava's Fury (Spec Bolt) - 309.4 dd - Matter damage
Sheet of Magma (DoT) - 73 dd Matter damage per tick
Molten Ocean (AoE Damage + speed decrease) - 134 dd Matter
Flaming Rocks (Major) - (Baseline Bolt) - 239 dd Heat
Iceblast (Major) - (Baseline DD) - 179.5
Fiery Maelstrom (Major) - (Baseline DD) - 171.8 dd Heat

All of the damage types a wizard can deal (Matter, Heat, Cold) they can debuff if they spec 48 Earth Magic.
(includes the baseline DD spells in Fire and
So Earth Wizard can not online debuff their own Earth spec damage, they can debuff their own baseline bolt/DD heat and cold)

Eldritch (49 Void)
Has 50% Body, Spirit, Energy debuff (15 seconds)
All void spec damage lines are Cold except for GTAOE (which is Energy)
Baseline DD is Heat damage
So the only damage a void eldritch can debuff that they also deal is the GTAOE which is difficult to place and time

However hib casters are more than balanced because they have baseline stun.

Drop Runemaster 50% heat debuff and make it a 50% energy debuff. Right now they have to run with a 49 or 50 Dark spec Spiritmaster to achieve the same utility.

Earth Wizards being able to debuff all their own damage is really unbalanced.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 12:50 PM by Spiegal

And yet it’s still one of the least played caster classes of all realms

How can you tell?

And what's the point? Nerf class that is being used too much and OP class that are less played?

So the only damage a void eldritch can debuff that they also deal is the GTAOE which is difficult to place and time

It's the Enchanter that has the self heat debuff and it's also 8 sec. This is intended.
So Caster from Hyb and Mid have their self debuff to 8 sec while Alb has all 3 self debuff to 15 sec.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 1:14 PM by Siouxsie

Debuff capabilities per realm & class:

Alb:

Heat, Cold, Matter - Earth wizard
Heat, Cold, Matter - Body Sorc
Body, Spirit, Energy - Spirit Cabalist

Hib:

Body, Spirit, Energy debuff - Void Eldritch
Matter, Cold, Heat debuff - Mana Enchanter

Mid:

Heat, Matter, Cold debuff - Runecarving Runemaster
Body, Spirit, Energy debuff - Dark Spiritmaster

OK so.. earth wizards get the same debuff line as body sorcs. Awesome. So Albion has an extra class that can debuff and debuff all its own damage lines.

Anyone else find this bizarre? Why was this decision made?

Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:22 PM by

gruenesschaf

The wizard was pretty useless without any buffs and even still is not really popular. The given buffs still seem appropriate and there is no need to mirror it.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 3:44 PM by joshisanonymous

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:22 PM
The wizard was pretty useless without any buffs and even still is not really popular. The given buffs still seem appropriate and there is no need to mirror it.

I agree that they needed a buff to make them desirable in RvR, and I think the debuffs go really well with the theme of the class being high damage with little utility. If anything, I could see the NS being removed before the debuffs for reasons of theme (I know most people here don't care about themes or immersion or silly things like that, but this is still an RPG). I'm not much concerned either way, though.

I'm surprised by this thread in general actually. If anything, the preponderance of high damage GTAoEs coming from Alb feels like it imbalances RvR far more than debuffs (or NS for that matter). Since the focus is on debuffs, though, it reads to me as someone wanting buffs to RMs and Elds more so than someone having lots of bad experiences with Wizard debuffs.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 6:28 PM by omicidi

Eldritch is the deadliest caster in the game:

Debuffs
NS
Disease

If anything the eldritch needs a nerf.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 6:45 PM by Spiegal

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:22 PM
The wizard was pretty useless without any buffs and even still is not really popular. The given buffs still seem appropriate and there is no need to mirror it.

Isn't the purpose to balance RvR and not trying to elevate a class to FOTM?
What is the aim on this server?

Fri 7 Aug 2020 7:22 PM by

gruenesschaf

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 6:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:22 PM
The wizard was pretty useless without any buffs and even still is not really popular. The given buffs still seem appropriate and there is no need to mirror it.

Isn't the purpose to balance RvR and not trying to elevate a class to FOTM?
What is the aim on this server?

Balance does not mean mirroring everything otherwise alb and hib would have celerity.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 7:31 PM by The Skies Asunder

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 7:22 PM
Spiegal wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 6:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Aug 2020 2:22 PM
The wizard was pretty useless without any buffs and even still is not really popular. The given buffs still seem appropriate and there is no need to mirror it.

Isn't the purpose to balance RvR and not trying to elevate a class to FOTM?
What is the aim on this server?

Balance does not mean mirroring everything otherwise alb and hib would have celerity.

A real shame that they don't haha. I loved me some Warden/Paladin celerity chants on Live.

On topic though, I don't see the issue with Wizard here. They have very little utility, and the debuff makes sense thematically. I still think they are one of the weaker casters in the game overall. Eldy is much better IMO, and has no self debuff worth anything.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 8:35 PM by Spiegal

Balance does not mean mirroring everything otherwise alb and hib would have celerity.

Or Hyb and Mid with bolt range mezz, or Alb and Mid with Base line stun, That's irrelevant.

My suggestion is to not have the debuff associated to the damage type in the same line.

Fri 7 Aug 2020 9:25 PM by Tyrlaan

First of all WIzards needed a boost to be a playable class. They got some of the changes from live and the extra resist debuffs.

They are not the same kind of debuff caster of their realm (like Enchanters and RMs are) because Alb has base cold DD and base body LT casters and Wizards usually only debuff for their own class (i.e. themselves, other Wizards, the odd non-Air-Theurgist not pumping out pets like they should, or the Levi proc), Their resist debuffs are 15sec duration where they have been reduced to 8 seconds on the other debuff casters. But they are also much less likely to be used in an assist scenario. Even an Earth Wizard with all its utility is never going to replace a Cabby in a group (pet, disease, debuffs) which also has synergy with the Sorc(s) and Minstrel(s) who just add even more utility and pets.

Wizards have other strengths (AoE, GTAE) which basically just scream "zerg".

Also an Earth Wizard will either debuff for their cold or fire base DD, or matter debuff for their bolt or DoT. The former are secondary specs well below 50 composite spec, the latter is one bolt on a RUT and damage over time, hardly capable of dropping somebody quickly after a resist debuff. The single and AoE DoT don´t stack btw. they are both spec DoTs.

RMs, Elds and Enchs all work in 8mans and in zergs. RMs and Elds can easily at least (sub)spec GTAE when going zerg spec. Elds and Enchs also offer great casters assists (after a baseline stun) and double PBAE for defense where the other realms are severely lacking. They also get better RAs than Wizards and RMs IMO (all Hib casters get good zerg specs and RAs, Static Tempest, Negative Maelstrom and Ichor are much better than Volcanic Pillar and Decimation Trap, both very underwhelming).

If anything there could be a case for RMs to get something as they are kinda like an Earth Wizard but with a subspec NS, subspec (AoE) snare nukes, either a specced DA and spec nukes or debuff nukes with some AoE damage - no pet, very underwhelming RAs . And Mid is lacking in the zerg class department - thus not attracting the players who would, thus very tank-heavy etc. pp. Hibs don´t need anything, not even Void Elds. It´s the easymode of Hib casters why they are that strong in zergs and siege.

TL;DR as long as I don´t see lots of Alb caster groups running on Earth Wizard debuffs, I don´t see a problem.