At Launch - Please think through your PvE decision - You're going to lose a lot of people

This is a 17 year old game. We've all leveled a hundred characters, so that we could RvR. There is no enjoyment or satisfaction in getting to 50. 50 is the beginning of fun. If you wipe the server and force people to level to 50, yet again, you will lose a lot of people that just don't want to do that yet again. Live multiple times. Uthgard. Live. other Free shards. Live. Uthgard. Phoenix. This is where I want to be. From what I'm hearing, this is where a lot of people want to be. But, we've spent 9 months in beta, leveled, did crafting, helped our friends level, and had fun RvR'ing.

I'll say this again, if you choose the path you're going to take, you will lose a LOT of people between months 2-5, just like other Freeshards. You can alter things at 50 like PvE dungeon raids, that can be used as a mechanism for RvR gear. Nobody cares about levels 1-35 or 40. It's just a big waste of time and has nothing to do with the end game of this game, 17 years later.

I have an idea - this isn't just about complaining.

Idea 1: You won't like this one
Do not wipe the server. Leave it i50. Wipe the gear, the money, all inventory.
Allow cross-realming after 1 hour time.

Idea 2: Battleground Progression - People love the battlegrounds. They will level out and RP out as is now. It's just part of the journey to 50.
Give everyone i35 at launch. Free set of crap gear. Basic stuff - no +'s.
Give big XP bonus in the battlegrounds from 35-50. Make this the focal for xping.
35-39, 40-44, 45-49 BGs. XP cannot be turned off. RPs cannot be turned off.
Give frontiers xp bonus like now and group bonus for frontiers like now. Give xp bonus for dungeons (all dungeons).
XP items are back to how they were before nerfing them. If i'm collecting XP items for my 2nd toon or my friend, what's wrong with that? I'm investing the time to do so, and it does take time.

I hope the staff seriously considers the path you're taking. I honestly cannot think of a good reason why you would want people to level their toons up. There is NO value to that. You may say, but it helps us get people invested in our server. I don't believe that. Has your population dropped off since i50? I doubt it. I know that North American primetime RvR has improved dramatically since i50. What does the data tell you? Remove opinions for a moment regarding that.

Why fix what's not broken?

Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:24 PM by Magesty

Without some amount of effort/time involved in leveling up and templating characters the average person is going to quickly lose interest in the server for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in threads just like this one since the beta opened.

If you consider a server with the current Phoenix population and gameplay to be “not broken” I don’t know what to tell you except perhaps you should consider a different genre of game.

Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:39 PM by imissswg

Seems to be there has been a significant drop off in pop since i50. Your ideas will kill the server even faster.

--Idea #1: is D.O.A. You might as well go back to whatever DAoC server you were last on.

--Idea #2: last I looked they don't have BGs past the 30-34 one, and AFAIK they don't plan to add them, which is a shame IMO., since Molvik was my favorite.

Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:44 PM by Ganaka

IMHO... Although everyone complained about the speed of PVE leveling, most of the people making the most noise about PVE leveling were playing stealthers and couldn't get PVE groups. Stealthers that could get PVE groups, due to leadership qualities or guild mates, didn't complain nearly as much.

Fri 2 Nov 2018 11:40 PM by Falken

Go find a more casual friendly game if you do not like it. They have made the PvE quite friendly to all play styles, classes who don't get grouped frequently can get groups due to social bonus, eggs and task items allow people to solo level while LFG or unable to find a group due to off hours or whatever, and overall have decreased the xp time to 50, so that casuals can hit it in a relatively decent time frame (projected 48h is their aim), plus you have quick travel to nearly every area of the game, so even if you are going to xp across the world you have access to porters which save you LOADS of time. Compound these factors by the fact that you can stay stat capped all the way 1-50 due to quality ROG drops that keep you in blue+ gear nearly all of your leveling experience. Everything about this server screams casual friendly, just to be clear that isn't interpreted as instant gratification, because that is no good for anybody in this scenario.

If you do not require people to work for what they really want, then they just don't appreciate it and this will only encourage people to cheat and steal because there was no time investment made to get where they really want to be.

You sound like an entitled snowflake, maybe DAOC just isn't a game for you. I suggest WoW, I hear they basically hand you everything for just logging in and paying that sub.

Nobody will miss you, this server will be very busy come launch. The only reason it has had a spiral downward in population is because people are simply waiting for the non wiped content to begin. We all entered into the beta knowing it would be wiped, if you didn't then you are just delusional.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 12:17 AM by Takii

You're making an incredible amount of assumptions about what people want, based entirely on your playstyle and not on reality. The whole "nobody wants to level to 50" bullshit has been disproven so many times its laughable. Exactly none of the i50 shards have ever even remotely come close to being considered a success for a reason.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:41 AM by Cadebrennus

PvE is where people learn to play their classes and how to play their class in synergy with others. Of course, then it's a new learning curve for RvR, but that initial growing pain of PvE is essential.

Stealthers were mentioned a few times in the posts above mine. I put it to the community here to group Stealthers more often in PvE and show them how to contribute to the group as a whole. I put it to the Stealther community to stop soloing in PvE and learn to work with others.

Learn from PvE. Apply and make adjustments for RvR. Learn to work as a team.

Sat 3 Nov 2018 5:18 PM by Armsmancer

Correct me if I'm wrong but out of all the private servers out there Phoenix has the fastest pve and leveling around. Crafting too.

If this is a deal breaker for you I have bad news for you, you're playing the wrong game. There's plenty of folks that like PvE and crafting, even if you refuse to count them.

Also, you aren't the first person to suggest this and have it shot down, and it is even worse now because we see what the dip in population has done to i50 so now you don't even have "potential" numbers on your side.

So mostly in conclusion - Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us. At best you could do a poll or something but we all know you won't, we're just supposed to believe statements like more will play here with i50.

If you start removing the things, even inconvenient things, from a classic it is no longer that classic game with all of its charms, but with flaws and all is what makes it what it was. Adding QoL doesn't really do much on a large scale, but removing an entire element like PvE is going to be a bridge too far, and the latest numbers bear that out.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:43 PM by garrith

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:24 PM
Without some amount of effort/time involved in leveling up and templating characters the average person is going to quickly lose interest in the server for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in threads just like this one since the beta opened.

If you consider a server with the current Phoenix population and gameplay to be “not broken” I don’t know what to tell you except perhaps you should consider a different genre of game.

What data do you have to support your "average person is going to quickly lose interest" statement? The average person is now 40-50 and has no interest in spending hours, ad nauseum. As any of your friends.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:44 PM by garrith

imissswg wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:39 PM
Seems to be there has been a significant drop off in pop since i50. Your ideas will kill the server even faster.

--Idea #1: is D.O.A. You might as well go back to whatever DAoC server you were last on.

--Idea #2: last I looked they don't have BGs past the 30-34 one, and AFAIK they don't plan to add them, which is a shame IMO., since Molvik was my favorite.

The Drop since i50 is not significant nor is that accurate. Go review the data. N/A primetime has more players.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:45 PM by garrith

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:44 PM
IMHO... Although everyone complained about the speed of PVE leveling, most of the people making the most noise about PVE leveling were playing stealthers and couldn't get PVE groups. Stealthers that could get PVE groups, due to leadership qualities or guild mates, didn't complain nearly as much.

Stealthers were getting groups as well. My statements are about wasted time leveling. A very high percent of people playing this server are old school players. Ask your friends if they want to spend 1 minute leveling again. The obvious answer is no, because it's a waste of time.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:50 PM by garrith

Falken wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 11:40 PM
Go find a more casual friendly game if you do not like it. They have made the PvE quite friendly to all play styles, classes who don't get grouped frequently can get groups due to social bonus, eggs and task items allow people to solo level while LFG or unable to find a group due to off hours or whatever, and overall have decreased the xp time to 50, so that casuals can hit it in a relatively decent time frame (projected 48h is their aim), plus you have quick travel to nearly every area of the game, so even if you are going to xp across the world you have access to porters which save you LOADS of time. Compound these factors by the fact that you can stay stat capped all the way 1-50 due to quality ROG drops that keep you in blue+ gear nearly all of your leveling experience. Everything about this server screams casual friendly, just to be clear that isn't interpreted as instant gratification, because that is no good for anybody in this scenario.

If you do not require people to work for what they really want, then they just don't appreciate it and this will only encourage people to cheat and steal because there was no time investment made to get where they really want to be.

You sound like an entitled snowflake, maybe DAOC just isn't a game for you. I suggest WoW, I hear they basically hand you everything for just logging in and paying that sub.

Nobody will miss you, this server will be very busy come launch. The only reason it has had a spiral downward in population is because people are simply waiting for the non wiped content to begin. We all entered into the beta knowing it would be wiped, if you didn't then you are just delusional.

I've played this game for 17 years with thousands of hours invested. This isn't about "casual". This is about wasting time that adds no value. Your first paragraph is supporting their changes vs. focusing on my objectives - removing wasted days of time that has nothing to do with the end game.

Regarding cheating - you have no data to support your argument that i50 or i35 increases cheating and stealing. What does stealing even mean?

I'm a snowflake? Haha. Screw you. Don't attack me because I bring up an argument suggesting that the devs are making a bad decision. Again, "nobody will miss you" is ridiculous. I'm offering my insight based on what people say who are grouping with me, which is a very diverse set of addicts and casuals.

Your response was littered with ridiculousness that lack data and reverted to attacks. Grow up.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:51 PM by garrith

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:41 AM
PvE is where people learn to play their classes and how to play their class in synergy with others. Of course, then it's a new learning curve for RvR, but that initial growing pain of PvE is essential.

Stealthers were mentioned a few times in the posts above mine. I put it to the community here to group Stealthers more often in PvE and show them how to contribute to the group as a whole. I put it to the Stealther community to stop soloing in PvE and learn to work with others.

Learn from PvE. Apply and make adjustments for RvR. Learn to work as a team.

What percent of people are playing a completely new type of class where PvE is helping them learn their new class? What data do you have to support this argument?

I don't follow your next 2 paragraphs. Learn to PvE? What does that mean? We've all PvE for hundreds and thousands of hours. It's a means to an end without a valid reason for that in 2018.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:55 PM by garrith

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 5:18 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but out of all the private servers out there Phoenix has the fastest pve and leveling around. Crafting too.

If this is a deal breaker for you I have bad news for you, you're playing the wrong game. There's plenty of folks that like PvE and crafting, even if you refuse to count them.

Also, you aren't the first person to suggest this and have it shot down, and it is even worse now because we see what the dip in population has done to i50 so now you don't even have "potential" numbers on your side.

So mostly in conclusion - Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us. At best you could do a poll or something but we all know you won't, we're just supposed to believe statements like more will play here with i50.

If you start removing the things, even inconvenient things, from a classic it is no longer that classic game with all of its charms, but with flaws and all is what makes it what it was. Adding QoL doesn't really do much on a large scale, but removing an entire element like PvE is going to be a bridge too far, and the latest numbers bear that out.

You're missing the point. There are "plenty of folks that like PvE"? Ok, then go start at level 1 and pve. If we offered i20, i30, i40, what percent of those people would /level versus starting at level 1? I'm going to bet you that if the devs looked at their data from beta, less than 5% of the total population started at level 1 versus taking the instant levels. If they love PvE so much, why didn't a majority of the population take that route?

There isn't a dip in population for i50. NA primetime has been better. Maybe the dip has occurred recently, but I don't believe there's data to support why.

My recommendation is based on feedback from MANY people I group with across 8mans to zergers to casuals. This isn't only my voice. I am speaking for myself, but I'm also offering advice and feedback.

The latest numbers do not bear out anything. Your data is flawed because we don't have insight into why things are happening or not. Your conflating beta arguments.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 5:31 PM by Cadebrennus

garrith wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:51 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 7:41 AM
PvE is where people learn to play their classes and how to play their class in synergy with others. Of course, then it's a new learning curve for RvR, but that initial growing pain of PvE is essential.

Stealthers were mentioned a few times in the posts above mine. I put it to the community here to group Stealthers more often in PvE and show them how to contribute to the group as a whole. I put it to the Stealther community to stop soloing in PvE and learn to work with others.

Learn from PvE. Apply and make adjustments for RvR. Learn to work as a team.

What percent of people are playing a completely new type of class where PvE is helping them learn their new class? What data do you have to support this argument?

I don't follow your next 2 paragraphs. Learn to PvE? What does that mean? We've all PvE for hundreds and thousands of hours. It's a means to an end without a valid reason for that in 2018.

Try grouping with a Stealther in RvR and see if they know how to have a support role in RvR. Then ask them how often they've grouped with Visi classes in PvE. You'll find your answer there. Only by grouping with Visi classes in a low-key environment (like PvE) can they figure out how they're actually supposed to contribute to a group. Or don't. Just keep rapid-firing responses without actually considering other people's point of view. It seems to be working for you lol.

Sun 4 Nov 2018 11:08 PM by Magesty

garrith wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:43 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 9:24 PM
Without some amount of effort/time involved in leveling up and templating characters the average person is going to quickly lose interest in the server for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in threads just like this one since the beta opened.

If you consider a server with the current Phoenix population and gameplay to be “not broken” I don’t know what to tell you except perhaps you should consider a different genre of game.

What data do you have to support your "average person is going to quickly lose interest" statement? The average person is now 40-50 and has no interest in spending hours, ad nauseum. As any of your friends.

Ah yes, "data", the new-age battle cry of pseudo-intellectual neocons. DAoC isn't some geo-political issue that affects millions of people and has been poured over endlessly by statisticians and PHDs for the past decade-- It's a seventeen year old computer game with a cult following. There isn't exactly a cornucopia of data-driven resources to draw from. In fact, there are basically none.

Let's also point out the irony of asking me for "data" to support my claims when you have failed to provide anything of substance to back up your "arguments" and "rebuttals" outside of of anecdotal statements and appeals to emotion. I've seen anti-vaxxers on Oprah vomit out more cogent points.

Ignoring the fact that the type of change you are proposing is simply never going to happen on Phoenix, and has already been discussed on a number of threads, let's introduce some compelling "data".

1) Many instant fifty servers have been created throughout DoL's existence and they have all failed, Most of them rarely attracted more than 50 players at a time. Often they had less than 20.

2) The beta population for Phoenix declined rapidly after /level 30 was implemented. Even if it has stayed steady between /level 40 and /level 50 (which I strongly doubt is the case) a large quantity of people stopped playing almost immediately after any /leveling was introduced.

3) The game play in an instant 50 environment is inherently limited. Action existing only in Emain will appeal to a smaller amount of players than a full server experience would.

4) Games that have meaningful progression and player investment are going to retain players at a higher rate. Implementing something like permanent i50 drastically reduces both progression and player investment.

When I read through this thread I see someone who is out of touch with the rest of the player base. Someone so stricken with shortsightedness that they fail to recognize that the thousands of people that are going to play this server at launch are going to do so for a variety of reasons. One of which is to group up and level their characters.

Without i50 you will still eventually get to the stage of the game that you want to enjoy, however if it is implemented it effectively disables the 90% of the game that others might enjoy.

Oh yeah, and I asked my friends about your idea like you suggested-- "It's horrible".

Mon 5 Nov 2018 8:46 AM by Sei

Pve has Always been the "entry ticket of rvr" , meaning that once you complete it you re done of pve to fully commit to rvr untill next Addon, unlike other games where pve grinding is nearly endless (weither we talk about Diablo or wow).

You Can go pve if you like it np but you cant compare daoc with other games with a linear progression curve as some people are arguing here. The only thing that IS close to it on daoc is the RA system. Appart from RA/ realm rank, you Can clearly see that daoc goal was to get people at the same level of Gear in rvr

That s true that at some point you Can go for suboptimal SC and improve it later, but especially in classic you wont have a big difference. On Phoenix i feel that getting item buff will be the most important thing.

Entry ticket :

Classic : lv50+SC

Toa : ml + New SC with artifact and toa items bonus

Darkness rising : CL + New SC with class weapon

Labyrinthe : New sc etc

Mon 5 Nov 2018 11:49 AM by relvinian

This is NOT a PVP game. PVP requires PVE, because-- money sink.

Also, i50 breaks everything, just like it would in real life. If everything was free then nobody would work. Then Venezuela. My regards to anyone from there. Hope things get better for you.

When the game launches-- money, farm toons, and CRAFTERS are going to be GOD, not your instant 50 stealther.

When the game launches, I'm not even sure how it will go. Will there be tasks? Will keep takes be possible? Will DF be open to all? Will DF items get procs?

I have NO IDEA what will happen on this server at launch except there will be lots of people and they will be competing for advantage.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 4:10 PM by phixion

Nah.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 4:49 PM by imissswg

garrith wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:44 PM
imissswg wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:39 PM
Seems to be there has been a significant drop off in pop since i50. Your ideas will kill the server even faster.

--Idea #1: is D.O.A. You might as well go back to whatever DAoC server you were last on.

--Idea #2: last I looked they don't have BGs past the 30-34 one, and AFAIK they don't plan to add them, which is a shame IMO., since Molvik was my favorite.

The Drop since i50 is not significant nor is that accurate. Go review the data. N/A primetime has more players.

LOL There are currently less than 100 people on (95 to be exact). There were easily 3x that a few weeks ago this time of day. Everyone I talk to agrees there are far fewer people on since i50.

Mon 5 Nov 2018 8:19 PM by Sepplord

it's not ONLY because of i50 though...

it's also because the wipe is now closing in and we even know exactly when it will happen

People tend to do a lot of stuff because of the rewards that they get to keep....be that XP, item, money or realmpoints

that's not the case anymore, so fewer people are online doing it

Tue 6 Nov 2018 8:48 AM by Sei

imissswg wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 4:49 PM
garrith wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:44 PM
imissswg wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 10:39 PM
Seems to be there has been a significant drop off in pop since i50. Your ideas will kill the server even faster.

--Idea #1: is D.O.A. You might as well go back to whatever DAoC server you were last on.

--Idea #2: last I looked they don't have BGs past the 30-34 one, and AFAIK they don't plan to add them, which is a shame IMO., since Molvik was my favorite.

The Drop since i50 is not significant nor is that accurate. Go review the data. N/A primetime has more players.

LOL There are currently less than 100 people on (95 to be exact). There were easily 3x that a few weeks ago this time of day. Everyone I talk to agrees there are far fewer people on since i50.

Having played before and during i50, i m confident to Say the rvr quality is better since i50 during Peak Time, and you have no issue finding grps to fight.

Before it was not rare to have whole evening with 0 grp of one realm roaming but just a zerg

Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:32 AM by Kaziera

This might shock you, but if phoenix has no pve, i will not play it.

After a long and maybe stressfull day at work, annoying kids and a load od housework, usually 2h of farming with some friends, pleasant talk and a beer are much more relaxing than 2hrs of primetime rvr.

Of course i love rvr. More than 50 percent of my playtime are rvr. But without the low intensity occupation in pve, daoc would not be the whole package

Tue 6 Nov 2018 10:31 PM by Armsmancer

garrith wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:55 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Nov 2018 5:18 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but out of all the private servers out there Phoenix has the fastest pve and leveling around. Crafting too.

If this is a deal breaker for you I have bad news for you, you're playing the wrong game. There's plenty of folks that like PvE and crafting, even if you refuse to count them.

Also, you aren't the first person to suggest this and have it shot down, and it is even worse now because we see what the dip in population has done to i50 so now you don't even have "potential" numbers on your side.

So mostly in conclusion - Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us. At best you could do a poll or something but we all know you won't, we're just supposed to believe statements like more will play here with i50.

If you start removing the things, even inconvenient things, from a classic it is no longer that classic game with all of its charms, but with flaws and all is what makes it what it was. Adding QoL doesn't really do much on a large scale, but removing an entire element like PvE is going to be a bridge too far, and the latest numbers bear that out.

You're missing the point. There are "plenty of folks that like PvE"? Ok, then go start at level 1 and pve. If we offered i20, i30, i40, what percent of those people would /level versus starting at level 1? I'm going to bet you that if the devs looked at their data from beta, less than 5% of the total population started at level 1 versus taking the instant levels. If they love PvE so much, why didn't a majority of the population take that route?

There isn't a dip in population for i50. NA primetime has been better. Maybe the dip has occurred recently, but I don't believe there's data to support why.

My recommendation is based on feedback from MANY people I group with across 8mans to zergers to casuals. This isn't only my voice. I am speaking for myself, but I'm also offering advice and feedback.

The latest numbers do not bear out anything. Your data is flawed because we don't have insight into why things are happening or not. Your conflating beta arguments.

A lot of this is self evident, like how before there was i40 everyone levelled up plenty of mains and alts just like the old days. If the beta just started with i50 from the get-go I wouldn't have bothered testing at all. It is built-in that PVE is in the game and always has been, the only time that is lifted is because of testing like this. I really don't understand why it is hard to comprehend that PVE is part of this game and it always has been.

Loading the argument with "well if we gave everyone the option of lv 1/20/30/40/50" isn't helping your case any because it is a hypothetical that doesn't address the current situation and plan for the server. Even if I was to respond with "in your universe where this takes place, yes, most will probably go i50 if everyone else is." That doesn't mean anything though because you have a built in assumption this server will not be just like every other i50 one out there in the history of Dawn of Light and be a derelict wasteland.

The most popular influxes of private servers, Uthgard/Genesis/Origins were popular and they included PVE. You have all of your work ahead to show that "let's do a server like that with i50 and expect the same exact popularity, and ignore the other servers still sitting there with 0 -3 players and have existed for years."

Plus the burden of "you gonna lose players" hasn't been met because your source is your butt, you got no idea even within some very liberal error margins what we should expect to see with or without i50 in players because you've presented nothing but your nostradamus predictions. You actually could be right, but you've given us no good reason to believe you. When Origins launched their servers busted because they had over 1500 people coming and there was hype. If you could please show me any i50 servers that not only were popular when they launched but they held a steady population and you'd be light years ahead of where you are now.

Sun 11 Nov 2018 11:17 AM by Laadna

garrith wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Nov 2018 8:29 PM
This is a 17 year old game. We've all leveled a hundred characters, so that we could RvR. There is no enjoyment or satisfaction in getting to 50. 50 is the beginning of fun. If you wipe the server and force people to level to 50, yet again, you will lose a lot of people that just don't want to do that yet again. Live multiple times. Uthgard. Live. other Free shards. Live. Uthgard. Phoenix. This is where I want to be. From what I'm hearing, this is where a lot of people want to be. But, we've spent 9 months in beta, leveled, did crafting, helped our friends level, and had fun RvR'ing.

I so fucking hate when people talk about 'we' like they were in everybody's head.

You're nobody's spokesman. Speak for yourself.

I like leveling in pve before enjoying rvr activity. It gives me time to handle my character and meet people in a controlled environment. I I had to do this in rvr (no matter the level I'm starting with), it would end in a discouraging mess without any chance of social bonds. I saw that with i30. A significant minority of players were overstressed about gaining maximum rp in minimum time, they were not even particularity skilled nor did they know how to lead. They were just aggressive and wanted a full group to help them get rp.