Archers need dodger! - Phoenix Freeshard

With the toys the archers don't have, and lack of old ras. The archers need help! No pd, ap, or dodger to help soak up damage in melee.
Give them back dodger!
They have no detection range to use their bow against assassins.
Shield and evade massively decrease their bow damage.
They lack the defense to hold their own in a melee engagement.
In the end archers are only good at adding fights!
With this ra set they got phase shift and forceful zephyr. Along with their rr5 they could kite and use their bow to hurt assassins that jumped them.

Dodger on archers wouldn't change much for anything but a 1v1.
Most if not all solo archers would pay 10 ra points to get to evade 5. (At the same evade as friars)

In the end it won't do much of anything to the game but make archers a little more viable in 1v1 and hopefully a little less likely to add or zerg.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:06 PM by Dimir

Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:39 PM
With the toys the archers don't have, and lack of old ras. The archers need help! No pd, ap, or dodger to help soak up damage in melee.
Give them back dodger!
They have no detection range to use their bow against assassins.
Shield and evade massively decrease their bow damage.
They lack the defense to hold their own in a melee engagement.
In the end archers are only good at adding fights!
With this ra set they got phase shift and forceful zephyr. Along with their rr5 they could kite and use their bow to hurt assassins that jumped them.

Dodger on archers wouldn't change much for anything but a 1v1.
Most if not all solo archers would pay 10 ra points to get to evade 5. (At the same evade as friars)

In the end it won't do much of anything to the game but make archers a little more viable in 1v1 and hopefully a little less likely to add or zerg.

The nicest way I can say this is that I disagree. You get better armor, access to IP, some additional toys (Buffs, Pet, Slam) all on top of your ranged DPS - you are not suppose to be able to 1v1 every class in the game. Find a common route people run and shoot them, there are plenty of opportunities to do so, and trust me it's far safer than trying to be down there at the person worrying about the next person coming.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:11 PM by Niget

Dimir wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:39 PM
With the toys the archers don't have, and lack of old ras. The archers need help! No pd, ap, or dodger to help soak up damage in melee.
Give them back dodger!
They have no detection range to use their bow against assassins.
Shield and evade massively decrease their bow damage.
They lack the defense to hold their own in a melee engagement.
In the end archers are only good at adding fights!
With this ra set they got phase shift and forceful zephyr. Along with their rr5 they could kite and use their bow to hurt assassins that jumped them.

Dodger on archers wouldn't change much for anything but a 1v1.
Most if not all solo archers would pay 10 ra points to get to evade 5. (At the same evade as friars)

In the end it won't do much of anything to the game but make archers a little more viable in 1v1 and hopefully a little less likely to add or zerg.

The nicest way I can say this is that I disagree. You get better armor, access to IP, some additional toys (Buffs, Pet, Slam) all on top of your ranged DPS - you are not suppose to be able to 1v1 every class in the game. Find a common route people run and shoot them, there are plenty of opportunities to do so, and trust me it's far safer than trying to be down there at the person worrying about the next person coming.

Pet, slam, and buffs (though be them small) are ok.
But my point is that they had those ras for a reason back when they where set up like this.
The reason is that most fights on an archer ends in melee.
Every archer I have talked to has said that if you encounter an assassin you are just dead.
I'm not asking for god mode. Just a chance to do something.
Ip is a strong ability but Ip 5 shouldn't be required just to win a fight.
Against envenom and detect hidden archer toys are nothing.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:12 PM by Niget

Dimir wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 6:39 PM
With the toys the archers don't have, and lack of old ras. The archers need help! No pd, ap, or dodger to help soak up damage in melee.
Give them back dodger!
They have no detection range to use their bow against assassins.
Shield and evade massively decrease their bow damage.
They lack the defense to hold their own in a melee engagement.
In the end archers are only good at adding fights!
With this ra set they got phase shift and forceful zephyr. Along with their rr5 they could kite and use their bow to hurt assassins that jumped them.

Dodger on archers wouldn't change much for anything but a 1v1.
Most if not all solo archers would pay 10 ra points to get to evade 5. (At the same evade as friars)

In the end it won't do much of anything to the game but make archers a little more viable in 1v1 and hopefully a little less likely to add or zerg.

The nicest way I can say this is that I disagree. You get better armor, access to IP, some additional toys (Buffs, Pet, Slam) all on top of your ranged DPS - you are not suppose to be able to 1v1 every class in the game. Find a common route people run and shoot them, there are plenty of opportunities to do so, and trust me it's far safer than trying to be down there at the person worrying about the next person coming.

Pet, slam, and buffs (though be them small) are ok.
But my point is that they had those ras for a reason back when they where set up like this.
The reason is that most fights on an archer ends in melee.
Every archer I have talked to has said that if you encounter an assassin you are just dead.
I'm not asking for god mode. Just a chance to do something.
Ip is a strong ability but Ip 5 shouldn't be required just to win a fight.
Against envenom and detect hidden archer toys are nothing.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:18 PM by Dimir

You can blame the OP status of Envenom (at least if you fight me) on /switch. I begged the staff in PMs and Suggestions to remove /switch before launch because it's so broken (and please show me a casual who will carry 12 extra weapons and swap their main hand before every attack to re-poison) but they wanted to keep it. If I encounter plenty of classes I am just dead, why should your counter not be an assassin?

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:21 PM by florin

Duuuude stop asking for the nerf hammer

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:23 PM by Quik

florin wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
Duuuude stop asking for the nerf hammer

Seriously, envenom is WAY OP here with /switch the way it is.

Not sure any class comes out on top of a fight with a stealthier with envenom anymore, even BD's drop like flies now and they used to be the antistealther.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:30 PM by florin

It’s made it easier but using 10 weapons and manually switching from inventory has been a thing for always.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:50 PM by Quik

Yes it has...but Envenom os stupidly overdone and something needs done to tone it down.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:09 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:50 PM
Yes it has...but Envenom os stupidly overdone and something needs done to tone it down.

As far as I can tell, this was oversight by Mythic regarding envenom; you could poison infinite weapons, including group mates. Imo, envenom should be more along the lines: Proc every 15s, only on currently equipped weapons (main hand, offhand, ranged). So at best, 3 weapons with 3 envenoms.

While this would be way more balanced, I wonder how receptive other assassins would be to it.

That being said, I totally disagree with the topic at hand that archers need more dodge, and the core rationale behind it--namely that archers should be more powerful than assassins in melee. Already, archers are very competitive in melee (slam, pet + spear, dual-wield + side-stun).

Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:27 PM by Quik

Well to the dodger part...

IMHO archers should not beat an assassin in melee combat...just like an assassin should never beat an archer if the archer get his shots going first...

The problem is the stealth radius...an assassin will almost always find the archer first taking the range out of it.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:12 PM by Niget

I think this is being mistaken.
I in no way want archers to be stronger in melee than assassins. In the other hand it should not be as one sided as it is now.
Dodger will only close the gap a little bit.
My encounters with assassins have been me getting totally rocked.
I caught an infant at range. About 1500 units.
I shot him to 20% before he got to me and he still ripped my face off. Not 1 evade on my end.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:43 PM by florin

Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
I think this is being mistaken.
I in no way want archers to be stronger in melee than assassins. In the other hand it should not be as one sided as it is now.
Dodger will only close the gap a little bit.
My encounters with assassins have been me getting totally rocked.
I caught an infant at range. About 1500 units.
I shot him to 20% before he got to me and he still ripped my face off. Not 1 evade on my end.

You’re not going to evade much on a 50 spec weapon /dw /cs. What’s your bow at? Seems like you’re hybrid so not doing great bow damage or melee. Are you buffed and templated?

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:48 PM by florin

One change is see for archer is 100% stealthed for first shot and crithsot being able to hit during combat, running, mezzos etc.. make the archer a better archer not a better meleer

Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:57 PM by Niget

florin wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:43 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
I think this is being mistaken.
I in no way want archers to be stronger in melee than assassins. In the other hand it should not be as one sided as it is now.
Dodger will only close the gap a little bit.
My encounters with assassins have been me getting totally rocked.
I caught an infant at range. About 1500 units.
I shot him to 20% before he got to me and he still ripped my face off. Not 1 evade on my end.

You’re not going to evade much on a 50 spec weapon /dw /cs. What’s your bow at? Seems like you’re hybrid so not doing great bow damage or melee. Are you buffed and templated?

My bow is 37 To comp. Yes hybrid.
He had a 40% arrow evade rate. According to combat log.
Not fully temped but close. Full stats and melee resists.
So if my main damage can be avoided like that without a shield. Why is everyone against a return of dodger? Would that not be fair.
Also all yellow pf buffs filled in with pots.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:12 AM by Isavyr

Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:57 PM
So if my main damage can be avoided like that without a shield. Why is everyone against a return of dodger? Would that not be fair.

You're distressed about a 40% dodge rate--imagine a 75% dodge rate. This is the dodger I remember--it made assassins totally overpowered. Giving it selectively between classes ruins the balance between them--elevating the archer over the assassin, for example. Most archers don't realize how strong they already are with IP. And sorry to say, but why should a ranged class have possibility of becoming melee-dominant over a strictly melee class? It doesn't make any sense.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:24 AM by Niget

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:12 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 11:57 PM
So if my main damage can be avoided like that without a shield. Why is everyone against a return of dodger? Would that not be fair.

You're distressed about a 40% dodge rate--imagine a 75% dodge rate. This is the dodger I remember--it made assassins totally overpowered. Giving it selectively between classes ruins the balance between them--elevating the archer over the assassin, for example. Most archers don't realize how strong they already are with IP. And sorry to say, but why should a ranged class have possibility of becoming melee-dominant over a strictly melee class? It doesn't make any sense.

Oh I remember 75% evade rates. But evade is capped here correct? 50%
Dodger on an archer would not make them melee dominant. They would need dodger 8 to get evade 7.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 1:01 AM by Niget

If we can't agree that dodger would be nessisary.
How about raising the evade?
Evade 5 would add 10%. Dodger 4
Dodger and pd where a big part of those classes at this patch. Neither should be taken away without something in return.

Tue 5 Feb 2019 7:19 AM by inoeth

i cant hear anymore this "ip is so strong, archers dont need dodger" ip is an active ra while evade is passive, that means you have that always! and not just every 15 min... see the difference?