Animist re-imagined [RVR] - Phoenix Freeshard

The animist is mostly a cheesy camping class, and I applaud the devs for doing a wonderful job in curbing their many undesirable behaviors in RvR. For example, no longer can they place shrooms on the milegate structure, have unlimited shrooms in an area, or assault keep parapets with shrooms. However, the class has many wonderful abilities and speclines that go unused in RvR because they were never optimized.

PART I: MILD CHANGES

Many of the animist's support spells have unnecessarily long-cast time in order to cast a spell that's short-range, and static to the location its placed. I recommend that these support spells get shorter cast time in order to make them possible in open-field RvR. I see zero downside, as these spells are strictly supportive in nature (and relatively mild in effect).

SUPPORT SPELLS
12% resistance turrets. 5s to create turret, casts 15s resist buff within 350 radius - recommend reduce summon time to 2.5s
25% ablative turrets. 5s to create turret, casts 10m 1-time use ablative to targets within 1000 units - recommend reduce summon time to 2.5s, increase cast range to 1500
5-25% melee absorb, lasts 15s, 3.0s to cast. This Verdant spell requires specialization, but sees little use due to its long cast-time. Strangely enough, the offensive melee ABS debuff has a 2.0s cast time, but the defensive abs buff has a 3.0s cast time. Recommend reducing summon time to 2.0s

PRIMARY PET
The animist gets one controllable pet, which also has a special attack. The verdant spec pet applies a ranged low-damage taunting DD, the arborial spec applies a high damage DD, and the creeping spec pet applies a medium-damage snare DD. You can only use one at any given time, and these pets are not baseline, but require specialization. They have a 1k attack range, as all animist pets do (take note, Albs/Mids!). This is a good counterbalance as the Fire and Forget (FnF) shrooms would be overpowered if they had 1500 range. However, for this special pet to see utility in open-field, I propose two changes:
1) The 5s summon time decreased to 2.5s
2) The 1000 range boosted to 1500 range

PART II: SEVERE CHANGES

The FnF shrooms are the most, and probably only, controversial part of the Animist class. The animist sets up their shrooms, waits for enemies to round a corner, and then watches as the FnF shrooms unload on the enemy--once visible to the enemy, the shrooms will finish their cast, even if the enemy is around the corner. (All pets behave this way, including necromancer).

This behavior is cheesy as it encourages camping and exploiting only the slightest unawareness of the enemy, to which they are disproportionately punishing--more so than any other class in the game. There is a cost to this strategy, which is that the animist needs to be stationary and consume all their mana in only summoning FnF shrooms. This does not appear to be good gameplay design, and I propose to attack this in several ways:

1) Limit the FnF pets to six (6) maximum (this number may need adjustment)
2) A sight reduction in the FnF shroom's effective hitpoints (they are damage, not tanks--currently require too high investment of enemy to remove)

These two features are a significant nerf to both the RvR and PvE effectiveness of the class. I think there should be a counterbalance to these changes:
1) All shrooms decay HP over time, such that after 2m, they die. Currently they die at end of 2m, regardless.
2) The controllable pet (only one can exist at any time) prevents decay to shrooms within 1000 range. This keeps them alive, as long as the primary grovekeeper, if you will, is alive.
3) Slightly reduce the summoning cast-time of the DD shroom (5.0 -> 4.0 seconds perhaps--would probably need iteration)

These changes will ensure the Animist can still perform decently with their static grove, but no more instant kills, nor will it require an overly high investment of enemy resources to counter. Meanwhile, animists will gain more versatility, become more fun (imo), and also become better RVR teammates.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:51 AM by rubaduck

Phoenix devs has done a lot to curb animist farming, and I actually agree with the changes they've done just because they have always been a thorn in players side. There are fantastic videos of old times shroom camps that melted zergs, and while I agree that it is still possible to do that, one class alone should not be the solution to do it. They have a shroom cap in place, 14 fnf pets plus a main pet. The main pet can be cast regardless of the shroom cap, and the FnF cap is shared among all the animists in that area. I don't think lowering this cap will bring any change, but will cause a lot more frustration because a fight has to go on for a very long time for an animist to hit the shroom cap, and also will cost a lot of mana + mana regenerating abilities. They also did great with the no-shroom-zones. Probably bums out a lot of people, but it is just fair.

Animists however should not be a class that a player should choose for RvR because they want to deal "tons'o'damage", but should be picked as a support. We run an animist for support, and he's quite good at creating zones which I think is the best purpose for an animist in RvR. If you ever been in a 8 man group, and been on voicecom you are probably familiar with the terms "PUUUSH!" or "PUUUUUULL!" which are the generic terms coined for the more cheesy ATTACK!! and RETREAT!!!. Animists are very good at creating these situations, and are played as supports to force these conditions. A lazy animist will just pile up their shrooms and be a happy camper, but any CC'er knows how easy it is to just CC them all and leave them be, which is why you often find fairy rings of FnF in RvR and that tells you that the animist player is a support player creating a barrier for a fight to either PULL back to or PUSH through. The pets are also very good at clearing pets from enemy team, and they can also place tanglers to CC with roots in both a push and a pull. If you're coming from old skool live, animists are not viewed as the same here. They are viable in caster groups as fantastic supports but the player needs to take that mindset and don't get greedy... unless there's room for it.

In regards of their specs, the resistance turret isn't really that big of deal. It does help, but the numbers aren't very attractive. Also, playing around with these numbers can cause more harm then good. Arb spec are generally thought of as a great spec for rvr, as you get less variance on the lifesteal, and the FnF turrets deal more stable damage. Creep is not bad either, and can be combined with arb to get more out of the situation you want the animist to play in. Verd however is a pure pve spec, and requires so much micromanagement in pvp that it wouldn't be attractive to change to be honest.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:28 AM by Tree

I have mixed feelings about the animist on Phoenix. Coming from Uthgard there are a few things I obviously like better here, namely no 50% RP steal from fnf and of course making verdant a viable line to play at least in PvE. However the shroom cap and restrictions on placing shrooms I find rather annoying.

The way it is now animist has the following problem: You absolutely want a verdant animist in any 8man PvE group, but they are only okayish in solo PvE and useless in zerg PvE and all RvR. Creep animist is is great solo PvE, okayish in 8man PvE, okayish in solo RvR (if you stay stationary) and useless in zerg PvE and zerg RvR. Arborial is great in 8man RvR and okayish at everything else.

So seriously, youd want a different specc for most of the things you do in this game, but there are no free respeccs. You kinda have to stick to one profession and live with the fact that you are great at one thing and pretty much cant do anything else.

And then there are a few more little quirks. First of all I dont believe fnf turrets are tanky enough. Its too easy to remove them, apart from the fact that in RvR you can just mezz them and be done with it.
The agro transfer of fnf shrooms to the main pet was a nice idea and helps a lot if you are verdant. If you are creep and want to solo, it sucks balls, because your main pet will take all the damage and once it dies transfer the agro to the animist. That is not enjoyable at all and severely limits the solo capabilities of creep. Most times I run without any main pet, just because I dont want it to get focused down all the time.

Please reimagine the shroom cap. 15 is fine for one single animist, but it makes having more than one animist in any group, zerg, area completely redundant.

One solution would be for the server to check how many animists are in one area and adjust the shroomcap accordingly. Eg 10+5 for any animist close by, so for instance 3 animists create a cap of 25.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:27 PM by Isavyr

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:51 AM
Also, playing around with these numbers can cause more harm then good. Arb spec are generally thought of as a great spec for rvr, as you get less variance on the lifesteal, and the FnF turrets deal more stable damage. Creep is not bad either, and can be combined with arb to get more out of the situation you want the animist to play in. Verd however is a pure pve spec, and requires so much micromanagement in pvp that it wouldn't be attractive to change to be honest.

Essentially you write that Arb is PVP spec, and it's dangerous to slightly boost the others. My premise was that all specs should be somewhat viable, and that it's not dangerous with the examples I provided. I respect that if you think only one spec should be RvR for that character, that's your opinion, though I disagree. But dangerous--maybe you could illustrate how the specific ideas I wrote would be dangerous. Simply stating its dangerous without any example or explanation doesn't drive the discussion forward.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:32 PM by Isavyr

Tree wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 9:28 AM
And then there are a few more little quirks. First of all I dont believe fnf turrets are tanky enough. Its too easy to remove them, apart from the fact that in RvR you can just mezz them and be done with it.
The agro transfer of fnf shrooms to the main pet was a nice idea and helps a lot if you are verdant. If you are creep and want to solo, it sucks balls, because your main pet will take all the damage and once it dies transfer the agro to the animist. That is not enjoyable at all and severely limits the solo capabilities of creep. Most times I run without any main pet, just because I dont want it to get focused down all the time.

Please reimagine the shroom cap. 15 is fine for one single animist, but it makes having more than one animist in any group, zerg, area completely redundant.

One solution would be for the server to check how many animists are in one area and adjust the shroomcap accordingly. Eg 10+5 for any animist close by, so for instance 3 animists create a cap of 25.

Hi Tree, thanks for the response. I had two questions:

1) How much time/mana should a caster spend to remove the shrooms? Currently the most efficient way to destroy shrooms is for animist to cast only one clump, and then enemy AOE them. Even then, it takes around 5 casts. If you separate them, it becomes more mana intensive to destroy the shrooms than to create them. Where do you think that create vs destroy cost should be?

2) Why 15 shrooms? 15 is enough to do the 1-shot behavior I mentioned. I don't mind this personally--I do very well with this mechanic. But looking at the big picture, it seems quite bad design; its very volatile, and punishes players disproprotionaly for small "mistake" (entering LoS for but a split second, without mezzing shrooms). Do you think this 1-shotting should a thing? Should there be counterplay? For example, shrooms no longer land attack if enemy returns behind LOS?

Regarding the FnF aggro design: I really think this was a great change. However, I disagree that an animist should be tanking with their DD shrooms (in PvE)--this doesn't seem logical. If the primary pet cannot survive a battle between the supporting shroom's damage, the animist's heals, maybe the animist had no business attacking that mob? Certainly most other classes aren't capable of doing the same thing.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:42 PM by rubaduck

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:27 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 1:51 AM
Also, playing around with these numbers can cause more harm then good. Arb spec are generally thought of as a great spec for rvr, as you get less variance on the lifesteal, and the FnF turrets deal more stable damage. Creep is not bad either, and can be combined with arb to get more out of the situation you want the animist to play in. Verd however is a pure pve spec, and requires so much micromanagement in pvp that it wouldn't be attractive to change to be honest.

Essentially you write that Arb is PVP spec, and it's dangerous to slightly boost the others. My premise was that all specs should be somewhat viable, and that it's not dangerous with the examples I provided. I respect that if you think only one spec should be RvR for that character, that's your opinion, though I disagree. But dangerous--maybe you could illustrate how the specific ideas I wrote would be dangerous. Simply stating its dangerous without any example or explanation doesn't drive the discussion forward.

No creeping is also good for rvr, and a combination of arb and creep can be good if the group you're running wants that broad support.

Verd however is in it's core not a good PVP spec out of very obvious reasons. The only thing it brings is the table is bladeturn, and that role is done better by a warden 1000%.

So to illustrate why changing verd spec to me more "pvp" friendly.

- The changes can literally blow up pve in hibernia even more.

Leave verd alone as it is, it is finally working again. Focus on improving creep and arb for pvp.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:48 PM by Isavyr

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:42 PM
No creeping is also good for rvr, and a combination of arb and creep can be good if the group you're running wants that broad support.

Verd however is in it's core not a good PVP spec out of very obvious reasons. The only thing it brings is the table is bladeturn, and that role is done better by a warden 1000%.

So to illustrate why changing verd spec to me more "pvp" friendly.

- The changes can literally blow up pve in hibernia even more.

Again, you're giving zero explanation. Just stating something doesn't make it so. You think a 2.5s RESIST shroom is going to blow up PVE? Or a 2.0s absorb buff will DESTROY hibernia? Explain how, please. In my view, it makes near no difference in PVE--only in RvR, where cast-time is significant, and this spec is consequently ignored. My point to my original post wasn't to improve animist's overall--arb is already great, and FnF shroom camping very strong regardless of the chosen spec.

I agree with you that creeping is OK, though it's strange that specializing in creeping doesn't reduce the variation in FnF shroom damage.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:53 PM by Tree

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:32 PM
Hi Tree, thanks for the response. I had two questions:

1) How much time/mana should a caster spend to remove the shrooms? Currently the most efficient way to destroy shrooms is for animist to cast only one clump, and then enemy AOE them. Even then, it takes around 5 casts. If you separate them, it becomes more mana intensive to destroy the shrooms than to create them. Where do you think that create vs destroy cost should be?

2) Why 15 shrooms? 15 is enough to do the 1-shot behavior I mentioned. I don't mind this personally--I do very well with this mechanic. But looking at the big picture, it seems quite bad design; its very volatile, and punishes players disproprotionaly for small "mistake" (entering LoS for but a split second, without mezzing shrooms). Do you think this 1-shotting should a thing? Should there be counterplay? For example, shrooms no longer land attack if enemy returns behind LOS?

Regarding the FnF aggro design: I really think this was a great change. However, I disagree that an animist should be tanking with their DD shrooms (in PvE)--this doesn't seem logical. If the primary pet cannot survive a battle between the supporting shroom's damage, the animist's heals, maybe the animist had no business attacking that mob? Certainly most other classes aren't capable of doing the same thing.

1) You cant put a number on it. Its rather a matter of what your class is supposed to do and can do when an average player plays the class and an expert plays it to its full potential. As an animist in RvR the best job you can do is area denial, your description of push / pull is quite accurate. An average player can neither play push / pull on an animist nor can an average enemy player deal with the area denial and push / pull of an expert animist in an enemy group.
An animist can have a huge impact in the right constellation and Im not surprised some people call them OP. But it all comes down to understanding how shrooms work and adapt gameplay to it.
The most efficent way to deal with animists is either mezz their shrooms or if they are in the open and spread, dont go near them alone. Otherwise If you bomb a stack you are quite mana efficent. If you nuke single shrooms you dont know how to play and deserve to die.

2) Why any number at all? Staff decided the right way to deal with peoples complaints is to restrict the number of shrooms an animist can summon. Could be any other number, but personally Im fine with 15, if I am alone. Most times you dont play alone and together with other animists this number severely limits or rather gimps your gameplay, espacially if you are creep specc.
Yes I believe 1-shooting an enemy should be possible, because when you play solo that laying of traps for other single players is pretty much the only thing you are really good at. And in groups thats even more true, because to create an insta-kill trap you not only commit your mana but also your groups position to a certain position, all while being at risk of having your entire mana countered by a single AoE mezz.
On a technical side I believe no pet should finish casts after loosing LoS, but at 1.65 animist also had his L50 fnf turret cast instantly, so there is that.

Thats obviously all very simplistic and everyone who ever played an animist can fill pages of anecdotes how other players outplayed them or fell victim through bad gameplay. There is no right and wrong answer and looking at the forums that runs true for all classes and balance in this game.

What I want is an animist that feels true to its original design.

The 15 global shroom limit certainly is nowhere near the original class design and defeats its purpose as soon as 2 animists play together in the same group, zerg, area. This should be addressed.
The way the three specc lines are all situational for only one very specific sort of gameplay and make all other sorts of gameplay unviable is a huge problem. I cant buy a respecc stone every time I switch from solo PvE to group PvE to group RvR and so on. Sure other classes can also benefit from respeccing for a very specific role, but those arent mutualy exclusive. Like I said every PvE group in Hibernia wants an animist, but he has to be verdant, but as verdant you have zero place in RvR.

Regarding the fnf agro behaviour. Sure some people might like it, for grouping as verdant its actually nice. All else, its bad. I dont understand your argument otherwise, apart from it messing with original class design and you liking it.
A good solution would be to make the verdant pet draw all agro from damage the animist causes. Arbo and creep pets on the other hand dont draw agro from other animist dmg sources but only create their own agro.

We could probably argue all day and not come to terms, because your goal is clearly the opposite of mine. You want to reimagine the animist as a completely new class, I just want to play it the way it was introduced back in the day. Minor adjustments to appease the crowds are okay, but not at the sacrifice of an entire class and its design philosophy.
And I can see no valid argument to do that with the animist. If we start here we could also change minstrels or zerkers completely, because some people dont like them and yeah... why not?

Sat 9 Feb 2019 7:22 PM by Isavyr

Tree wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 6:53 PM
1) The most efficent way to deal with animists is either mezz their shrooms or if they are in the open and spread, don't go near them alone. Otherwise If you bomb a stack you are quite mana-efficent. If you nuke single shrooms, you don't know how to play and deserve to die.

2) Yes I believe 1-shooting an enemy should be possible, because when you play solo that laying of traps for other single players is pretty much the only thing you are really good at. And in groups thats even more true, because to create an insta-kill trap you not only commit your mana but also your groups position to a certain position, all while being at risk of having your entire mana countered by a single AoE mezz.

We could probably argue all day and not come to terms, because your goal is clearly the opposite of mine. You want to reimagine the animist as a completely new class, I just want to play it the way it was introduced back in the day. Minor adjustments to appease the crowds are okay, but not at the sacrifice of an entire class and its design philosophy.
And I can see no valid argument to do that with the animist. If we start here we could also change minstrels or zerkers completely, because some people dont like them and yeah... why not?

Some good points, Tree.

1) I agree regarding the mezz-- an AOE Mezz is perhaps too effective on shrooms, as it often nullifies them for the remainder of the shroom's life (my change to their duration would somewhat fix that, at least). An AOE mezz is one-cast, and always better range than all shrooms. This is partly why I believe the primary shroom should have longer range, to improve the odds of the animist without it being a 1-ability counter. However, in my experience, most classes devote more mana to destroying them through damage, than it costs to summon them, which doesn't seem reasonable.

2) Maybe we do just disagree here, and fair enough if so. I think that the original design was a huge blight in gameplay, and the animist is much better for everyone (including Hibernians) where it's at currently.

Regarding my MILD CHANGES, I think they could be implemented without any significant disturbance (or redefining the class), thereby giving the animist more choice in specs.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:12 PM by rubaduck

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:48 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 4:42 PM
No creeping is also good for rvr, and a combination of arb and creep can be good if the group you're running wants that broad support.

Verd however is in it's core not a good PVP spec out of very obvious reasons. The only thing it brings is the table is bladeturn, and that role is done better by a warden 1000%.

So to illustrate why changing verd spec to me more "pvp" friendly.

- The changes can literally blow up pve in hibernia even more.

Again, you're giving zero explanation. Just stating something doesn't make it so. You think a 2.5s RESIST shroom is going to blow up PVE? Or a 2.0s absorb buff will DESTROY hibernia? Explain how, please. In my view, it makes near no difference in PVE--only in RvR, where cast-time is significant, and this spec is consequently ignored. My point to my original post wasn't to improve animist's overall--arb is already great, and FnF shroom camping very strong regardless of the chosen spec.

I agree with you that creeping is OK, though it's strange that specializing in creeping doesn't reduce the variation in FnF shroom damage.

But you can't base a class around support utility like that, and it will never be a "winning" point unless it gives you more offense. Verd spec is all about the tank pet, it is fundamentally about it. How do you implement that fundamental mechanic to rvr, without breaking pve? The support utility is a bonus around it, it doesn't hold up on its own. If they keep verd as it is, and work on making creep and arb better (together or alone) I am more then enough happy.

Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:45 PM by Isavyr

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
Verd spec is all about the tank pet, it is fundamentally about it. How do you implement that fundamental mechanic to rvr, without breaking pve? The support utility is a bonus around it, it doesn't hold up on its own. If they keep verd as it is, and work on making creep and arb better (together or alone) I am more then enough happy.

Well, you're repeating that claims --that it's dangerous, but you still haven't elaborated. So after three posts asking for an elaboration, and receiving none, I think it's safe to dismiss this claim, or at least agree to disagree.

I will point out that none of the verdant specialization abilities are pet-only, nor is there any documentation from Mythic stating the spec is only about the pet, nor does it logically make sense that the specialization would be solely based around the pet, as every ability, including the baselines, of Verdant are focused on general defense, not strictly supporting the shroom. I don't know where you get that idea that, because something is meta in PVE, that's all the spec is intended for.

Sun 10 Feb 2019 12:26 AM by rubaduck

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:45 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
Verd spec is all about the tank pet, it is fundamentally about it. How do you implement that fundamental mechanic to rvr, without breaking pve? The support utility is a bonus around it, it doesn't hold up on its own. If they keep verd as it is, and work on making creep and arb better (together or alone) I am more then enough happy.

Well, you're repeating that claims --that it's dangerous, but you still haven't elaborated. So after three posts asking for an elaboration, and receiving none, I think it's safe to dismiss this claim, or at least agree to disagree.

I will point out that none of the verdant specialization abilities are pet-only, nor is there any documentation from Mythic stating the spec is only about the pet, nor does it logically make sense that the specialization would be solely based around the pet, as every ability, including the baselines, of Verdant are focused on general defense, not strictly supporting the shroom. I don't know where you get that idea that, because something is meta in PVE, that's all the spec is intended for.

My first thoughts will be that they lack mobility. The pet needs to be mobile for verd to be able to use their main damage spell that is unique to that spec line. So what happens if you give the pet mobility? Well, no need for a puller in pve any more, so nightshade, blademaster, hero, bard, ranger, , just send the pet around and soak up the mobs. leave any unwanted classes out, and break pve even more then what it is now.

What about changing the pet aoe spell to affect other targets then your verd pet, like say a FnF pet? Again, you create the same kind of problem, you break pve because any pet can pull any mobs, keep the aggro safe, and leave all the unwanted group members out of groups. This is breaking pve.

These are the first things that always comes to mind with verd spec, it is so fundamentally flawed, yet so powerful in pve that it won't traverse well in to pvp.