AHK

Started 9 Jun 2021
by Terrowen111
in Suggestions
As someone who plays solo/smalls/8mans exclusively. I would absolutely love to see the reduction in AHK players in this game. It takes any skill out of RvR and makes competition almost impossible when you have 5 RM blasting you instantly, or 6 archers, or even solo assassin classes instantly putting all poisons on at once. Click button win fight. Just seems op to me. And please. Correct me if I'm wrong
Wed 9 Jun 2021 3:45 PM by easytoremember
I agree when it comes to pulse hotkeys. Normally it is impossible to keep casting 6 resists on top of 2-4 other pulses and have any room for styles/spells between your QB or your fingers. Manually clicking a line of them cripples your turning & targeting.

Because people run these pulses on 1 key anyone of that class not doing so is gimp by default. Bringing the gimps to the level of AHK makes AHK users too strong, and lowering AHK to the level of the gimps makes the gimps too weak.

In the same sense Minstrel AHK charm was too strong but mechanically nerfing the charm deleted the gap between AHK and non-AHK user in that respect.


On the topic of poison swap, if they are integrating multiple weapon swaps into 1 bind then I'd say that is too strong as well. (eg clicking the same button multiple times cycles through inventory slots- meaning after each swing you press the macro twice to swap both weapons to fresh poisons)
Wed 9 Jun 2021 4:44 PM by Noashakra
Terrowen111 wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 3:23 PM
As someone who plays solo/smalls/8mans exclusively. I would absolutely love to see the reduction in AHK players in this game. It takes any skill out of RvR and makes competition almost impossible when you have 5 RM blasting you instantly, or 6 archers, or even solo assassin classes instantly putting all poisons on at once. Click button win fight. Just seems op to me. And please. Correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong, I switch my poisons with the /switch macro and not AHK. Using AHK to switch poisons would be stupid and fuck up your DPS with the resist/purge etc. Do you think you can bind sometimes 10 to 16 weapons to a few keys? It's proof you don't know how it works. Also how do you put "instantly" poisons when you need to swing you weapons to apply?
You don't need AHK on most mages too BTW, It's usefull on classes like bards, healer or sorc, but RM? Nope. Same with archers lol, there are no reason to use AHK. assist and bow are 2 keys lol.
Where AHK is useful for example : tanks to switch the right kind of weapon for the right styles. Even with that, it makes you usually miss the first style because of how the imputs are queued.
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:14 PM by bculpepper
Terrowen111 wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 3:23 PM
...when you have 5 RM blasting you instantly, or 6 archers, or even solo assassin classes instantly putting all poisons on at once....

The 3 examples you gave have nothing to do with AHK. I don't think any of those scenarios use AHK - or at the least AHK would not help. For example I play an assassin and my weapon swaps are all qbind from F1 - F6 and I know from memory which poison is which key.

But to the overall point this is what I think. Some people believe this is a game of keyboard skill. Some think its a game of strategy. If you believe its a game of keyboard skill then you don't like AHK because it takes that away. Take a Skald for example. Having to rapidly click 8 buttons to twist spells - plus hit the 2 DD buttons when it comes up. I suppose a keyboard warrior would be better at that than an old man. AHK would equalize the good keyboard clickers and the not so good. I see it as a game of -mostly- strategy. When do I twist? when do I use both DD vs save one to interrupt? I see the fun more in the planning and using the correct skills at the right time rather than having agile fingers to rapidly click things.

In any case AHK is not an unfair advantage given that its a free program that anyone can use.
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:17 PM by skipari
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 4:44 PM
You are wrong, I switch my poisons with the /switch macro and not AHK. Using AHK to switch poisons would be stupid and fuck up your DPS with the resist/purge etc. Do you think you can bind sometimes 10 to 16 weapons to a few keys? It's proof you don't know how it works. Also how do you put "instantly" poisons when you need to swing you weapons to apply?
You don't need AHK on most mages too BTW, It's usefull on classes like bards, healer or sorc, but RM? Nope. Same with archers lol, there are no reason to use AHK. assist and bow are 2 keys lol.
Where AHK is useful for example : tanks to switch the right kind of weapon for the right styles. Even with that, it makes you usually miss the first style because of how the imputs are queued.

It is perfectly possible to make AHK inputs reliable, important there is the order of the abilities on your hotbar since the daoc client seems to have some internal order in which simultaneus keypresses are processed. Also even as RM/Archer it can be useful to just bind /face + /assist together, maybe even with the nuke itself, because why not, some miliseconds less.
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:22 PM by Astaa
Just ban it and roll all chants into one.
Wed 9 Jun 2021 9:49 PM by Noashakra
skipari wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:17 PM
Noashakra wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 4:44 PM
You are wrong, I switch my poisons with the /switch macro and not AHK. Using AHK to switch poisons would be stupid and fuck up your DPS with the resist/purge etc. Do you think you can bind sometimes 10 to 16 weapons to a few keys? It's proof you don't know how it works. Also how do you put "instantly" poisons when you need to swing you weapons to apply?
You don't need AHK on most mages too BTW, It's usefull on classes like bards, healer or sorc, but RM? Nope. Same with archers lol, there are no reason to use AHK. assist and bow are 2 keys lol.
Where AHK is useful for example : tanks to switch the right kind of weapon for the right styles. Even with that, it makes you usually miss the first style because of how the imputs are queued.

It is perfectly possible to make AHK inputs reliable, important there is the order of the abilities on your hotbar since the daoc client seems to have some internal order in which simultaneus keypresses are processed. Also even as RM/Archer it can be useful to just bind /face + /assist together, maybe even with the nuke itself, because why not, some miliseconds less.

it's not possible to make them 100% reliable if you use positionals on the first hit.
i dare you to face+cast on the same bind with AHK and see the result, it's a nightmare to queue spells.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:26 AM by inoeth
Astaa wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:22 PM
Just ban it and roll all chants into one.

"Heavenly Medley" ;D
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:30 AM by Centenario
You are not allowed to have any Setkeydelay, any wait and and repeat.
I have trouble even with Paladin to use the chant correctly.
Would have to have character specific keybind to make it work.
Set each chant on unused 1tap keys like yuioplkjhg and then use a simple

;twistingchants
XBUTTON1::
Send yuioi
return

;twistingelementalresists
XBUTTON2::
Send plk
return

;twistingmindresists
XBUTTON3::
Send jhg
return

3 buttons is still too much
I'd prefer they raise the value of the triple resist to 20, and remove the single resist, then we can add the resists to the regular twisting without it being too many button presses.
Also make it easier for skald/bard

So you'd use 1 button to cast:
smallheal
dmgadd
AF
resistmind
resistelemental

Another big issue is the cooldown.
I found that if I would put the abilities on my bar and do the classiclike twisting, it would be much more smooth.
you leave around 0.75second between each keypress and you can continuously cast without seeing the cooldown, if the spells are put in a good order.
It was like heal/endo/dmgadd/af/endo/heal and you would just never stop pressing your keys while still moving and using styles.
It was quite hard but the visual effect and pro effect was nice. For sure the main issue is the noise. ^^

Would be nice to remove the twisting noise.
Have it on one button.
Continuously cast each spell in a row with a .75sec delay and casting all 5 spells listed above.
Without requiring AHK just as a dev simplify the whole mechanical aspect, while still keeping the class theme and old school twisting feel.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 1:40 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Astaa wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:22 PM
Just ban it and roll all chants into one.

They allow it because so many hardware options come with macro capability these days and if they disallowed AHK then the people with those hardware options would gain an even greater advantage.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 2:42 PM by Sepplord
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 1:40 PM
Astaa wrote:
Wed 9 Jun 2021 6:22 PM
Just ban it and roll all chants into one.

They allow it because so many hardware options come with macro capability these days and if they disallowed AHK then the people with those hardware options would gain an even greater advantage.

They can't distinguish between someone using AHK and someone using their keyboards software package. It's not like the hardware is mechanically creating a macro-effect. It's just that they have some AHK-like program built into their drivers. It's all automation software.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 2:53 PM by Centenario
Any hardware is managed by a software (driver) and so is third party program.
AHK is no different from a mouse or keyboard with extra available programmable keys.

If i use a logitech or razer mouse, I can rebind keys, etc... thats exactly the same thing as AHK.
Except if you use AHK against the phoenix rules (with delays/etc...) which can also be done with some keyboard and mouse programs nowadays, they just do the same as AHK.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 3:59 PM by omicidi
There’s nothing wrong with AHK. It’s a free program that you can download and use.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:15 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 2:42 PM
They can't distinguish between someone using AHK and someone using their keyboards software package. It's not like the hardware is mechanically creating a macro-effect. It's just that they have some AHK-like program built into their drivers. It's all automation software.

I was giving the reason Greu gave for allowing AHK. I don't give a damn about how either works or how pedantic someone wants to be about it.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 5:17 PM by Magesty
I've read and understood the Devs' arguments for making AHK officially legal-- the proliferation of programmable hardware, the many clunky mechanics in the game, and the decline of an aging player base's ability to effectively use their extremities as they slide faster and faster through time towards their inevitable death. Essentially, as I understand the argument, it would become nearly impossible to police every case of macro use since the tech has become prolific, so instead they said "fuck it" and made it legal with the stipulation that no delays may be used.

How policing the use of delays is any easier than policing macro use in general is something I fail to grasp, and I think points to a fairly gaping hole in the logic behind the decision to allow AHK use in the first place.

Let's be honest about the current state of things. Pandora's Box has been opened and now the vast majority of the player base uses some sort of macroing. How many use delays? Personally, I suspect a large portion of them do. If you want to be competitive there is little reason not to. Just don't release a video that clearly shows macros that break the rules and you are home free.

I play a Reaver without using any form of AHK, and, as with many other classes, it is pretty obvious that I am at a huge disadvantage compared to someone playing the same class that does. There are simply too many keys (two dots, two LTs, three pulses, RAs, charges, pots, on top of a fairly large useable style library) and much potential min-maxing with weapon proc/damage type and shield swapping (small shield/large shield/procs). If I obsessed over eking out every last drop of potential, as most of the competitive player base seems to, I am obligated to not only AHK a large portion of my character's kit to effectively min-max, but also to reduce my total key strokes and thus allow myself to focus on abusing positional styles. I don't mind being at a disadvantage and occasionally losing fights I might've otherwise won if I was using AHK and abusing positionals, so this isn't the thrust of my argument. I don't find that way of playing to be enjoyable, and I can still be competitive to a personally acceptable level without it. The point is to show that it provides a very tangible benefit, and thus many players who might not have otherwise are going to feel obligated to use AHK to be able to match up against their opponents who do.

So we have a situation in which any player who is seriously concerned about min maxing is using AHK because the other good players are doing the same, and no real way to determine if someone is using an "illegal" macro.

The difference between standard play and AHK use, depending on the class, can be pretty obvious after some observation, but the difference between delayed AHK and "legal" AHK use is not nearly so clear.

So, imagine a Phoenix where AHK use was never made legal, and instead an effort was made to reduce the mechanics like Paladin chants that clearly require a macro to use effectively. As with Live servers in the past, the vast majority of the player base would simply follow the rules as the pressure to compete effectively as well as the need to adapt for garbage mechanics would be removed. As the competitive pressure would be relatively diminished most people would just play the game the way they always have. The small percentage of players that are willing to cheat to win would still be cheating, no doubt, but it would not only be more obvious to the observer, it would be an additional order of magnitude greater in terms of degeneracy. That is to say, adding delays to an already legal AHK is a much smaller step than going from not using any sort of macro to using it. Plus all them cheaters wouldn't be able to post shitty YouTube highlight videos with terrible music to attain the recognition they crave.

But now macro use is endemic to Phoenix. The Box has been opened and it is almost impossible to shut. The choice has been made to force most competitive players to use AHK or an equivalent, and hoping it will go away is just wishful thinking.

I hope other players enjoy having to use it, and I'm glad that I don't feel compelled to the way that some might.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 6:22 PM by Zonartica
It always makes me laugh to see people complaining about ahk believing that everything is automated and that we should not switch ourselves by pressing a button for each poison.

I personally use 12 buttons for the switch of my poisons.

Brainstorm
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:50 PM by Kurbsen
this thread is dumb. its 2021 macro and hotkeys used in every game lmao
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:17 PM by Magesty
Kurbsen wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:50 PM
this thread is dumb. its 2021 macro and hotkeys used in every game lmao

What games do you play that allow AHK use?

Basically every single game I'm familiar with-- WoW, LoL, OSRS, FFXIV, Apex Legends, HoTS, etc. either actively ban users running AHK or explicitly state in their ToS that it is illegal to use scripting of any kind.

Because, you know, players actually playing the game is relevant to the user experience.
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM by Riac
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press?? shoulda hit up some mop wow. I guess it's not too surprising considering the guy kicked this off with archers and RMs as his example. i'm not even sure what AHK would even do for those two classes. both of those classes put together have less keybinds than a sin or cc/supp class.
if anything AHK just allows you to bind your abilities like most modern games? correct me if im wrong, but is it even possible to make keybinds like alt+z or crtl+z in daoc?
it also allows the use of the F1-f6, which is very nice, especially if you play one of those classes with a ton of buttons. (like reaver lmao)
tbh though most of the ppl in this game are clickers, the amount of DAoC videos ive seen with ppl clicking very crucial abilities is pretty cringe, no wonder they think the ppl with keybinded abilities are automated gods lol.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 12:03 AM by Kurbsen
Magesty wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:17 PM
Kurbsen wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 8:50 PM
this thread is dumb. its 2021 macro and hotkeys used in every game lmao

What games do you play that allow AHK use?

Basically every single game I'm familiar with-- WoW, LoL, OSRS, FFXIV, Apex Legends, HoTS, etc. either actively ban users running AHK or explicitly state in their ToS that it is illegal to use scripting of any kind.

Because, you know, players actually playing the game is relevant to the user experience.

lol there is literally a macro system for scripting in wow.. also not every AHK file is a script..most things done with it is just remapping keys.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:48 AM by easytoremember
Riac wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press??
Reaver (20), or 18 when DAs are redundant
aura1 aura2 aura3
aura1b aura2b aura3b
siphon siphonb dot
DA DAb
slam numb
levi sidetap anytimer python
Guard
TWF+gt macro(s)

Any class with multiple pulse spells suffers from this problem of the pulses needing to be on easy-to-reach keys that you don't have enough of.

By comparison a Thane (11) has his
iDD iaoeDD
Nuke aoeNuke
slam numb
-asr anytimer snare
Guard
ST

VW (11)
iSnare iDoT
lifetap
Cele
frontstyle sidestun-followup-followup2 backstun arb
Ichor

Champion (13)
d/q s/c haste iDD iSnare
slam numb
anytimer backstun-followup snare reactive
Guard
ST
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:53 AM by Irkeno
Magesty wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 9:17 PM
Basically every single game I'm familiar with-- WoW, LoL, OSRS, FFXIV, Apex Legends, HoTS, etc. either actively ban users running AHK or explicitly state in their ToS that it is illegal to use scripting of any kind.

Because, you know, players actually playing the game is relevant to the user experience.

World of Warcraft (your very first reference)


/yawn

Oh and FYI this is far more powerful than AHK as it allows legal conditions and IF functions in game for WoW. It's absolutely massive...

AHK essentially helps you figure out ways to make the game commands more ergonomic for you. They do not give you some hellbent edge over others who do not want to/refuse to use them. Would an ingame system to do this stuff help? Sure. Is that high on the Devs list? Probably not.

But blaming your losses on others use of AHK is an awful scapegoat at best, as all it is is admitting that you're either
1- Making errors in your gameplay (which means someone who's ergonomically arranged their toolbar to reduce their error input has been able to capitalise on)
2- Dont understand the legal limitations of AHK and as such just carte blanche it as cheating.

Or in many cases even worse than that i've seen people berating /qbind and calling that AHK/cheating because they dont know where the buttons are.

This is a massive yawn and if you're crying at AHK then you're basically admitting you're not playing the game optimally yourself.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:02 AM by Irkeno
Riac wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press??

Probably one of the biggest banks of buttons in the game. Pachealer runs away with it but....

3x Useable and distinct anytimers
4part block
3part parry
5 Shield styles/basic styles Numb, slam, disable, stun, paralyse
Levi
2x Sidechain
+1sidechain if you're sub blade for peel
Asp
3Auras
3Sub Auras
2 DD
2 Dot
2 DA
Guard
Engage

34 Prior to RAs/Weaponswaps/Different damage types and End/heal pots. (These all carry across most classes so no point counting)
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:07 AM by Magesty
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:53 AM
World of Warcraft (your very first reference)

I played a Druid on classic WoW. I'm very familiar with the macro system.

Now, if you actually read what I wrote, I explicitly said AHK use. While WoW's macro system is undoubtedly very useful, proper scripting is a different beast.

Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:53 AM
But blaming your losses on others use of AHK is an awful scapegoat at best, as all it is is admitting that you're either
1- Making errors in your gameplay (which means someone who's ergonomically arranged their toolbar to reduce their error input has been able to capitalise on)
2- Dont understand the legal limitations of AHK and as such just carte blanche it as cheating.

Or in many cases even worse than that i've seen people berating /qbind and calling that AHK/cheating because they dont know where the buttons are.

This is a massive yawn and if you're crying at AHK then you're basically admitting you're not playing the game optimally yourself.

Perhaps I didn't write my post very well, because you are essentially arguing against something I wasn't even trying to say.

1) I am not playing optimally. I'm aware of this and quite OK with it. I don't feel pressured to use AHK the way that many might (perhaps you are one of these people, given how your entire post seems to be projecting concern about gameplay outcomes onto me). I lose plenty due to my own incompetence. Sometimes, I lose track of my stun timers. Sometimes, I can't tell which way a tiny Lurikeen is facing after I've stunned it and my first style is an indigo instead of a levi. I don't think I'm a bad player, but I'm certainly not the best.
2) I am capable of using AHK., and I understand the rules around its use. I'm also aware of what can be done with the program if someone is creative.

My ability as or success as a player was not my main point. I used my character simply because it is the example I am most familiar with. That paragraph was laying the ground work for the idea I was trying to explore with my post: allowing AHK is a clear invitation for people to leverage its full capabilities whether it is against the rules or not, and there is almost no way to tell definitively if it is being used legally. A better approach may have been to just modify the game mechanics that truly require it, and disallow its use. I genuinely hope it is helping some people enjoy the game more, but I'd need convincing to believe allowing it was, on total, the right decision.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:19 AM by Adwaenyth
Magesty wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:07 AM
My ability as or success as a player was not my main point. I used my character simply because it is the example I am most familiar with. That paragraph was simply laying the ground work for the idea I was trying to explore with my post: allowing AHK is a clear invitation for people to leverage its full capabilities whether it is against the rules or not, and there is almost no way to tell definitively if it is being used legally. A better approach may have been to just modify the game mechanics that truly require it, and disallow its use. I genuinely hope it is helping some people enjoy the game more, but I'd need convincing to believe allowing it was, on total, the right decision.

My mouse and keyboard are fully programmable. May I not use my mouse or keyboard then simply because it can be used to macro the game illegally? That would be the same logic applied to those devices.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:41 AM by Ceen
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:02 AM
Riac wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press??

Probably one of the biggest banks of buttons in the game. Pachealer runs away with it but....

3x Useable and distinct anytimers
4part block
3part parry
5 Shield styles/basic styles Numb, slam, disable, stun, paralyse
Levi
2x Sidechain
+1sidechain if you're sub blade for peel
Asp
3Auras
3Sub Auras
2 DD
2 Dot
2 DA
Guard
Engage

34 Prior to RAs/Weaponswaps/Different damage types and End/heal pots. (These all carry across most classes so no point counting)
Meanwhile I use slam, snare and levi on my reaver and win.
This is no rant about Levi, I would play the same on most characters.
Rather focus on the important stuff do that perfectly and ignore the minor stuff.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:00 AM by Noashakra
Ceen wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:41 AM
Meanwhile I use slam, snare and levi on my reaver and win.
This is no rant about Levi, I would play the same on most characters.
Rather focus on the important stuff do that perfectly and ignore the minor stuff.

And this is why there is a such a gap between good players and average players. Yarna is so much ahead of bad players like Whipcrack and co.
Because the average player don't care about min maxing.

And then you have those players telling you that assassins are too OP because they can't kill them if they purge their slam lmao.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:01 PM by Magesty
Adwaenyth wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:19 AM
My mouse and keyboard are fully programmable. May I not use my mouse or keyboard then simply because it can be used to macro the game illegally? That would be the same logic applied to those devices.

You can use a modern mouse and keyboard without programming them to do anything unique. Programmable keypads have existed since the early 2000s, and so has easily accessible macro software. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say— Are you just reiterating the devs’ initial stance? I’m aware of the reasons they gave for allowing the use of macros.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:27 PM by Irkeno
Ceen wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:41 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:02 AM
Riac wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press??

Probably one of the biggest banks of buttons in the game. Pachealer runs away with it but....

3x Useable and distinct anytimers
4part block
3part parry
5 Shield styles/basic styles Numb, slam, disable, stun, paralyse
Levi
2x Sidechain
+1sidechain if you're sub blade for peel
Asp
3Auras
3Sub Auras
2 DD
2 Dot
2 DA
Guard
Engage

34 Prior to RAs/Weaponswaps/Different damage types and End/heal pots. (These all carry across most classes so no point counting)
Meanwhile I use slam, snare and levi on my reaver and win.
This is no rant about Levi, I would play the same on most characters.
Rather focus on the important stuff do that perfectly and ignore the minor stuff.

I’m sure you beat people who don’t have purge up, and that’s great and all, buy then again a broken clock is right twice a day, doesn’t mean you should listen to it.

Go fight the two or three reavers on the server who use their class fully and you’ll notice how much room for improvement there is.

Yarna, Schwippy, Nubrina. Let us know how you get on.

Offtopic enough I think.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:35 PM by Irkeno
Magesty wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:07 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:53 AM
World of Warcraft (your very first reference)

I played a Druid on classic WoW. I'm very familiar with the macro system.

Now, if you actually read what I wrote, I explicitly said AHK use. While WoW's macro system is undoubtedly very useful, proper scripting is a different beast.

Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 1:53 AM
But blaming your losses on others use of AHK is an awful scapegoat at best, as all it is is admitting that you're either
1- Making errors in your gameplay (which means someone who's ergonomically arranged their toolbar to reduce their error input has been able to capitalise on)
2- Dont understand the legal limitations of AHK and as such just carte blanche it as cheating.

Or in many cases even worse than that i've seen people berating /qbind and calling that AHK/cheating because they dont know where the buttons are.

This is a massive yawn and if you're crying at AHK then you're basically admitting you're not playing the game optimally yourself.

Perhaps I didn't write my post very well, because you are essentially arguing against something I wasn't even trying to say.

1) I am not playing optimally. I'm aware of this and quite OK with it. I don't feel pressured to use AHK the way that many might (perhaps you are one of these people, given how your entire post seems to be projecting concern about gameplay outcomes onto me). I lose plenty due to my own incompetence. Sometimes, I lose track of my stun timers. Sometimes, I can't tell which way a tiny Lurikeen is facing after I've stunned it and my first style is an indigo instead of a levi. I don't think I'm a bad player, but I'm certainly not the best.
2) I am capable of using AHK., and I understand the rules around its use. I'm also aware of what can be done with the program if someone is creative.

My ability as or success as a player was not my main point. I used my character simply because it is the example I am most familiar with. That paragraph was laying the ground work for the idea I was trying to explore with my post: allowing AHK is a clear invitation for people to leverage its full capabilities whether it is against the rules or not, and there is almost no way to tell definitively if it is being used legally. A better approach may have been to just modify the game mechanics that truly require it, and disallow its use. I genuinely hope it is helping some people enjoy the game more, but I'd need convincing to believe allowing it was, on total, the right decision.

Legal use of AHK on DAOC is 10x weaker than the WOW system. If you think someone is using a script which breaks the rules, then definitely report them, and in that case I fully support you. But I’m talking about capabilities within the rules.

Far less impactful than people cry about it being.

1 button = multiple sends. No delays, conditions or repeats.

If you can explain to me the kind of proper scripting, and im not being facetious here, that you’re talking about that is legal, yet deserves your dissaproval please do explain it, as honestly to my understanding of whats legal and doable, perhaps I’m missing something which makes you unhappy and I’m more than happy to be made aware of the issue.

But as i see it, the following on 1 button is hardly gamechanging:

Parts of a chain
Switch to 2h+style or 1h
Face+cast (although personally dont even think thsts always a good thing)
Chants on one button

Maybe I’m misunderstanding it’s legal capabilities though as I said. Please let me know.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:44 PM by Magesty
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:35 PM
If you can explain to me the kind of proper scripting, and im not being facetious here, that you’re talking about that is legal, yet deserves your dissaproval please do explain it, as honestly to my understanding of whats legal and doable, perhaps I’m missing something which makes you unhappy and I’m more than happy to be made aware of the issue.

But as i see it, the following on 1 button is hardly gamechanging:

Parts of a chain
Switch to 2h+style or 1h
Face+cast (although personally dont even think thsts always a good thing)
Chants on one button

Maybe I’m misunderstanding it’s legal capabilities though as I said. Please let me know.

I agree completely that when used within its legal capabilities it isn't really a big deal. On some classes it is basically useless compared to just using the normal interface. Obviously on some others (like the Reaver) it can give you a bit of an edge-- I really don't think not using it is affecting more than 1-5% of my solo fights (I use all keys on the left side of the keyboard to TGB + cntr and alt modifiers so it's not like I'm playing like the dude above), but that is more than enough motivation for most of the player base to run it.

When you dig into what the program is actually capable of that falls outside of what is allowed by the server rules it is pretty remarkable. Obviously, I'm very far from being an expert on the topic.

We all know about adding delays. I suspect a decent portion of the player base does this, whether they know it is illegal or not, even if it is just to make their chant macros operate more smoothly.

But, as an example of really utilizing the program, you can also have AHK search for certain colored pixels in an area of your screen and then have it perform certain commands. If I played a demezz class I could create a script to press a key and have AHK search my mini group bar for pixels that match the color of text on mezzed characters (whatever it is... Light blue?), select them, face, and cast demezz. So a task that previously required some amount of cognition followed by several key strokes is now one button. Obviously there are some potential issues with this example, but imagine what else you can do if you choose to use just the pixel location feature creatively.

This is just one example, and I'm far from an expert on the program. It is impressively robust.

The point I was making in my original post is that by explicitly allowing the use of something like AHK you are inviting players to take advantage of what it has to offer, even if that is as small as using delays. If there was simply a blanket ban on any sort of automation coupled with a reduction in mechanics that require it, I believe you'd have far fewer people breaking rules over all. That was really the main point of my post. I think the game can be, and has been, played adequately without AHK for a very long time, and inviting its use is asking for exploitation. It feels like a poor decision.

Ultimately, I accept that my point is a matter of opinion as it can't be proven definitively one way or the other, but I think there is something to it and decided it was worth sharing. Plus, it is entirely moot as 80%+ of the player base is currently using AHK.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:59 PM by Ceen
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:27 PM
Ceen wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:41 AM
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 2:02 AM
Riac wrote:
Thu 10 Jun 2021 10:53 PM
lol you think a reaver has too many buttons to press??

Probably one of the biggest banks of buttons in the game. Pachealer runs away with it but....

3x Useable and distinct anytimers
4part block
3part parry
5 Shield styles/basic styles Numb, slam, disable, stun, paralyse
Levi
2x Sidechain
+1sidechain if you're sub blade for peel
Asp
3Auras
3Sub Auras
2 DD
2 Dot
2 DA
Guard
Engage

34 Prior to RAs/Weaponswaps/Different damage types and End/heal pots. (These all carry across most classes so no point counting)
Meanwhile I use slam, snare and levi on my reaver and win.
This is no rant about Levi, I would play the same on most characters.
Rather focus on the important stuff do that perfectly and ignore the minor stuff.

I’m sure you beat people who don’t have purge up, and that’s great and all, buy then again a broken clock is right twice a day, doesn’t mean you should listen to it.

Go fight the two or three reavers on the server who use their class fully and you’ll notice how much room for improvement there is.

Yarna, Schwippy, Nubrina. Let us know how you get on.

Offtopic enough I think.
1vs1 is decided by side arc / back arc strafe not by your quickbar.
As soon as you enter a group all your reactionary micro management is way outplayed by focusing on pan camera, strafe and communication.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:54 PM by Noashakra
Ceen wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:59 PM
1vs1 is decided by side arc / back arc strafe not by your quickbar.
As soon as you enter a group all your reactionary micro management is way outplayed by focusing on pan camera, strafe and communication.

it's the difference between B/C and A/S tier players but ok
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM by Irkeno
Ceen wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:59 PM
1vs1 is decided by side arc / back arc strafe not by your quickbar.
As soon as you enter a group all your reactionary micro management is way outplayed by focusing on pan camera, strafe and communication.

If you think theyre not managing their strafing AND landing block/parry/aura/taps/changing weaps/shields all within that fight window…youve already lost before you enter the ring.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:07 PM by Irkeno
Magesty wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 5:44 PM
Irkeno wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 4:35 PM
If you can explain to me the kind of proper scripting, and im not being facetious here, that you’re talking about that is legal, yet deserves your dissaproval please do explain it, as honestly to my understanding of whats legal and doable, perhaps I’m missing something which makes you unhappy and I’m more than happy to be made aware of the issue.

But as i see it, the following on 1 button is hardly gamechanging:

Parts of a chain
Switch to 2h+style or 1h
Face+cast (although personally dont even think thsts always a good thing)
Chants on one button

Maybe I’m misunderstanding it’s legal capabilities though as I said. Please let me know.

I agree completely that when used within its legal capabilities it isn't really a big deal. On some classes it is basically useless compared to just using the normal interface. Obviously on some others (like the Reaver) it can give you a bit of an edge-- I really don't think not using it is affecting more than 1-5% of my solo fights (I use all keys on the left side of the keyboard to TGB + cntr and alt modifiers so it's not like I'm playing like the dude above), but that is more than enough motivation for most of the player base to run it.

When you dig into what the program is actually capable of that falls outside of what is allowed by the server rules it is pretty remarkable. Obviously, I'm very far from being an expert on the topic.

We all know about adding delays. I suspect a decent portion of the player base does this, whether they know it is illegal or not, even if it is just to make their chant macros operate more smoothly.

But, as an example of really utilizing the program, you can also have AHK search for certain colored pixels in an area of your screen and then have it perform certain commands. If I played a demezz class I could create a script to press a key and have AHK search my mini group bar for pixels that match the color of text on mezzed characters (whatever it is... Light blue?), select them, face, and cast demezz. So a task that previously required some amount of cognition followed by several key strokes is now one button. Obviously there are some potential issues with this example, but imagine what else you can do if you choose to use just the pixel location feature creatively.

This is just one example, and I'm far from an expert on the program. It is impressively robust.

The point I was making in my original post is that by explicitly allowing the use of something like AHK you are inviting players to take advantage of what it has to offer, even if that is as small as using delays. If there was simply a blanket ban on any sort of automation coupled with a reduction in mechanics that require it, I believe you'd have far fewer people breaking rules over all. That was really the main point of my post. I think the game can be, and has been, played adequately without AHK for a very long time, and inviting its use is asking for exploitation. It feels like a poor decision.

Ultimately, I accept that my point is a matter of opinion as it can't be proven definitively one way or the other, but I think there is something to it and decided it was worth sharing. Plus, it is entirely moot as 80%+ of the player base is currently using AHK.

So yeah at this point you’re just talking about cheating.

Theres a term for that pixel thing, someone said it once, on screen recognition or something? But honestly at that point yes thats just cheating outright and completely different to what theyve legally allowed. And honestly at that point, yes im sure a few gamers are code literate enough to do that but not a huge majority, I’d wager the devs have some form of tracking in place to monitor delays/timers/loops or things like this. Think ive seen some bans for it.

But essentially. Legal use of Ahk, you’re ok with?
The fact that it gives some dirty buggers a grey area to cheat is what you’d want to ban?

I fully agree with banning cheats but the general idea of ahk improves upon archaic game mechanics. I’d liken it to throwing a grenade in an FPS… you dont need to press 1 button to swap to grenade then another to throw, that would be annoying. You just do it by pressing 1 button. Better game design.

I genuinely think ahk use will probably drop a lot anyway given the styles drop to 2 part chains only. But I’m only considering ‘legal use’ as cheating and misuse/bannable offenses are things the gm’s deal with, not us discussing fugazi’s on the forums.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:15 PM by Astaa
I'm sorry but using AHK is a genuine advantage over those that refuse to use 3rd party software to play DAOC, otherwise nobody would use it.

If you can't win without AHK then you just aren't good enough, and that's not some sort of elitist claim, it's just what it is. DAOC is DAOC, with all its clunkiness.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:05 PM by Irkeno
Astaa wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:15 PM
I'm sorry but using AHK is a genuine advantage over those that refuse to use 3rd party software to play DAOC, otherwise nobody would use it.

If you can't win without AHK then you just aren't good enough, and that's not some sort of elitist claim, it's just what it is. DAOC is DAOC, with all its clunkiness.

Ive used ahk on 30% of my toons for convenience. The other 70% of the time I have never complained about an opponent ahk’ing as an unfair advantage. I have definitely complained about the insanely annoying noise of a macro spamming resist chant spamming skald though 😂 and then you collect the rps and all is forgiven.
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