Adjustment of all speed classes to 204%

Since phoenix gms are interested on bringing more variation on setups and char options by the custom change like effected by cure nearsight, maybe an adjustment of all speed classes to 204% speed would make this even more perfect and bring way more options for classes and way more playstyles on 1v1/2v2/8v8 or zerg.

Hib : Bard(43music)/Warden(44nurt)/Ench(baseline)
Mid: Healer(aug44)/Skald(43Bs)/Rm(baseline)
Alb: Sorc(baseline)/Minstrel(43instrument)/Theu(baseline)

Apart from giving more classes speed you also effect that chars who had other chant/songs couldnt be used will be now available to them. As an Example a bard using resistance song / skald resistance song or minstrel ablative armor.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 2:32 AM by Niix

kpax wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Sep 2018 1:45 AM
Since phoenix gms are interested on bringing more variation on setups and char options by the custom change like effected by cure nearsight, maybe an adjustment of all speed classes to 204% speed would make this even more perfect and bring way more options for classes and way more playstyles on 1v1/2v2/8v8 or zerg.

Hib : Bard(43music)/Warden(44nurt)/Ench(baseline)
Mid: Healer(aug44)/Skald(43Bs)/Rm(baseline)
Alb: Sorc(baseline)/Minstrel(43instrument)/Theu(baseline)

Apart from giving more classes speed you also effect that chars who had other chant/songs couldnt be used will be now available to them. As an Example a bard using resistance song / skald resistance song or minstrel ablative armor.

If you do that then you dump on Skalds, they will just not be built into groups ever... alb and hib will still run a bard/minstrel so it doesn't really matter for them, would allow minstrels not to twist though and then there will be 100000 red pets everywhere.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 3:17 AM by kpax

Honestly Skald for tank setups still not replacable if u think about the Fury of gods, and skald could be option for resist song and aug coud go lower on skill. So imo i dont agree with you. This would be rly unique change which gives so many new options in combination with other classes what were not available before. At least a vote by all players on this suggestion can be helpfull to see opinion of all players.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 3:21 AM by kpax

Honestly imo skald or minstrel beeing able to replaced bring all the option of the unloved chars like pala/friar/warden/thane ingame

Overall it brings way more advance than disadvance imo

Sun 23 Sep 2018 3:33 AM by Smilo

I think its a great idea but yeah skalds will hate you for this.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 6:21 AM by Pendalith

i hear mention of fury of the gods but have you tested it to see the dmg it adds ^^

Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:06 PM by Dis

maybe add some mezz/root/deroot/mls/cls/speedwarps on every supp for more action...guys come on, are u serious?

Sun 23 Sep 2018 1:20 PM by Ganaka

Handing out more speed just makes it easier on melee classes and harder on cloth-caster classes. As if more HP and higher AF doesn't also skew the outcome...

If the speed classes were to be changed, I would prefer to nerf the max speed down to caster speed.

I'd also give caster speed to all cloth-wearing casters. It seems odd to me that some casters get it (Theurgist) while others do not (Wizard), when both classes are Elementalists.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 4:28 PM by vulna

I agree with this 100%. Bumping all forms of speed up to speed 5 was one of the best things Broadsword ever did for the live servers.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 4:58 PM by aso

as they said before, they dont want smallman here, only 8man, skald minst, stealthers

Sun 23 Sep 2018 4:58 PM by schreon

Isn't this what beta is ideal for? Just try it for a week or two and see how it plays out.

If the effects turn out to be as bad as some other posters assume, that can still be reverted. What counts is the state of the game at release. So having experimented a lot during beta can only be positive ... imho.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 5:35 PM by defiasbandit

Why not try it? it would help a lot of classes possibly.

Sun 23 Sep 2018 6:02 PM by Sayuri

nice idea +1

Mon 24 Sep 2018 2:42 AM by Niix

As mid it would buff mid hybrid group and caster group cuz you wouldn’t put a skald in ever

Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:10 AM by Ceen

Awesome idea.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:38 AM by Kaziera

Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:10 AM
Awesome idea.

Yea. Like. Not.

Class diversity was alwas daoc strong point. Dont change that.

You can make a point of more easy grp build, but imo it creates more Problems than it solves, like classes becoming obsolete like skald and mins. Yes mins. I would always pic a 2nd (body)sorc over a mins. Also it reduces player interaction. Because when you are less reliant on that bard or that skald, you might just not look for that random player from outside of your playerbubble. So no social bonds are formed. That would be so sad.

Lets please dont take the meta and rip it apart. Lets tweak it carefully so the game stays the one we all love.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 6:46 AM by defiasbandit

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 5:38 AM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:10 AM
Awesome idea.

Yea. Like. Not.

Class diversity was alwas daoc strong point. Dont change that.

You can make a point of more easy grp build, but imo it creates more Problems than it solves, like classes becoming obsolete like skald and mins. Yes mins. I would always pic a 2nd (body)sorc over a mins. Also it reduces player interaction. Because when you are less reliant on that bard or that skald, you might just not look for that random player from outside of your playerbubble. So no social bonds are formed. That would be so sad.

Lets please dont take the meta and rip it apart. Lets tweak it carefully so the game stays the one we all love.

I agree. I don't think its a necessary change, but might be interesting to test out of curiosity.

Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:27 PM by Ganaka

So I created a bonedancer, wizard and then a runemaster. The lack of caster speed is glaring and just makes Wizard and bonedancer feel gimpy. I just have to ask…

Why don’t all cloth wearing casters get caster speed? What was the reasoning behind giving it to the runemaster and not the wizard?

I know I know, it’s a 20 year old game...

Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:53 PM by Aincrad

And this is exactly why all speed classes should not have their speed adjusted to 204%. It is just a slippery slope and everyone will be asking for more customizations because of it. Just keep it as it is please.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:01 AM by Takii

Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:27 PM
So I created a bonedancer, wizard and then a runemaster. The lack of caster speed is glaring and just makes Wizard and bonedancer feel gimpy. I just have to ask…

Why don’t all cloth wearing casters get caster speed? What was the reasoning behind giving it to the runemaster and not the wizard?

I know I know, it’s a 20 year old game...

Because it's a game designed to be played with 7 other people. That comes with its share of pros and cons, one of the cons being that depending on the class you pick, you may have significantly more cons than another class when it comes to soloing but you also bring a lot more to a group (like speed).

This kind of thing is core to the design and can't just be changed at will.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 7:02 AM by schreon

204% speed is vital in the current state of RvR with tasks and domination mode. Giving more classes 204% speed would greatly ease group building, especially considering smallman and duos. Hence, giving more classes 204% speed would most likely foster easy RvR action.

IMHO, it is a thing that defenitely is worth trying during beta. Also, it is nothing exotic, as this is already a reality on the official servers. As I already said, if it actually turns out that no one picks up a skald / minstrel anymore, that change could be easily reverted. Especially considering that the effort of implementing this is basically editing the values of 4 skills, which I suspect takes only a few minutes of developer time.

Although I doubt skalds / minstrels would suffer very much. Maybe the number of skalds/minstrels gets smaller a bit. In the face of the current class distribution, that would actually be a healthy thing in my book.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:31 PM by defiasbandit

Takii wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:27 PM
So I created a bonedancer, wizard and then a runemaster. The lack of caster speed is glaring and just makes Wizard and bonedancer feel gimpy. I just have to ask…

Why don’t all cloth wearing casters get caster speed? What was the reasoning behind giving it to the runemaster and not the wizard?

I know I know, it’s a 20 year old game...

Because it's a game designed to be played with 7 other people. That comes with its share of pros and cons, one of the cons being that depending on the class you pick, you may have significantly more cons than another class when it comes to soloing but you also bring a lot more to a group (like speed).

This kind of thing is core to the design and can't just be changed at will.

Yeah well designing the game around 8 man groups was mythics biggest mistake.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:36 PM by Kralin

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:31 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Sep 2018 7:27 PM
So I created a bonedancer, wizard and then a runemaster. The lack of caster speed is glaring and just makes Wizard and bonedancer feel gimpy. I just have to ask…

Why don’t all cloth wearing casters get caster speed? What was the reasoning behind giving it to the runemaster and not the wizard?

I know I know, it’s a 20 year old game...

Because it's a game designed to be played with 7 other people. That comes with its share of pros and cons, one of the cons being that depending on the class you pick, you may have significantly more cons than another class when it comes to soloing but you also bring a lot more to a group (like speed).

This kind of thing is core to the design and can't just be changed at will.

Yeah well designing the game around 8 man groups was mythics biggest mistake.

I don't think it was a mistake. It's the reason this game has appeal for many people still playing it. If the game was balanced with mirrored classes across the realms, it wouldn't be special and we would have moved on once the game's graphics became fairly obsolete (compared with newer MMOs).

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:44 PM by defiasbandit

Kralin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:36 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:31 PM
Takii wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 1:01 AM
Because it's a game designed to be played with 7 other people. That comes with its share of pros and cons, one of the cons being that depending on the class you pick, you may have significantly more cons than another class when it comes to soloing but you also bring a lot more to a group (like speed).

This kind of thing is core to the design and can't just be changed at will.

Yeah well designing the game around 8 man groups was mythics biggest mistake.

I don't think it was a mistake. It's the reason this game has appeal for many people still playing it. If the game was balanced with mirrored classes across the realms, it wouldn't be special and we would have moved on once the game's graphics became fairly obsolete (compared with newer MMOs).

The group cap should have been 5 in rvr while 8 in pve. DAOC visuals are some of the best tbh.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:56 PM by Takii

This server is not called "Phoenix - The server where we make DAoC what some people think it should have been in 2018".

If core design pillars of this game are not to your liking, this may not be the game for you.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 5:58 PM by rubaduck

The only time I would say this is appropriate is if you put the speed in a spec line, and not as base line. Other then that it's a rediculous idea if you ask me.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:39 PM by defiasbandit

The real issue is that the 204% speed classes are overpowered. Bards and minstrels are the best small man and full group classes. They are pretty much essential. Skalds are not too shabby either.

I get that playing them in 8 man can have a high skill cap, but their amount of utility in small man situations is only magnified.

However they are the speed classes, and should therefore be the only ones with 204%.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:47 PM by Kaziera

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:39 PM
The real issue is that the 204% speed classes are overpowered. Bards and minstrels are the best small man and full group classes. They are pretty much essential. Skalds are not too shabby either.

I get that playing them in 8 man can have a high skill cap, but their amount of utility in small man situations is only magnified.

However they are the speed classes, and should therefore be the only ones with 204%.

Defiasbandit, 2018: NERF ALL THE THINGS!

Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:49 PM by defiasbandit

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:47 PM
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:39 PM
The real issue is that the 204% speed classes are overpowered. Bards and minstrels are the best small man and full group classes. They are pretty much essential. Skalds are not too shabby either.

I get that playing them in 8 man can have a high skill cap, but their amount of utility in small man situations is only magnified.

However they are the speed classes, and should therefore be the only ones with 204%.

Defiasbandit, 2018: NERF ALL THE THINGS!

Let us be clear. I do not want classes to get extra abilities such as movement speed or cc or anything. No way.

I was just pointing out that the 204% speed classes are powerful classes and can be tricky for balance partly due to their instacasts. I am not calling for any specific nerfs.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 6:51 PM by Kaziera

im kidding m8

Wed 26 Sep 2018 8:20 PM by Hector

Please for the love of god no.

DAoC is intended to make it so that each class is unique. The more you hand out the more live-like this becomes. That's not classic, gtfo

Wed 26 Sep 2018 9:35 PM by vulna

To the players saying no, did you play on the official servers when Broadsword introduced this change? Because it had a very positive effect on all types of RvR. The only group impacted negatively was, unfortunately, Skalds.

Wed 26 Sep 2018 9:36 PM by Niix

vulna wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 9:35 PM
To the players saying no, did you play on the official servers when Broadsword introduced this change? Because it had a very positive effect on all types of RvR. The only group impacted negatively was, unfortunately, Skalds.

Give thanes 204% speed along with skalds and then you will see a mix of thanes and skalds ;>

Wed 26 Sep 2018 10:05 PM by vulna

Just to clarify something, Broadsword didn't include Warden/RM/Theurg like it is proposed in the original post. Enchanters, Sorcs, and Healers all got the boost. And in the case of Healers, their speed was moved to baseline Pac. I would settle for leaving it in Aug spec, and choosing to either run yellow speed at 189% or spec 44 Aug to get speed 5.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 6:07 AM by schreon

Hector wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Sep 2018 8:20 PM
Please for the love of god no.

DAoC is intended to make it so that each class is unique. The more you hand out the more live-like this becomes. That's not classic, gtfo

Quoting from the playphoenix.wiki landing page:

We aim for a general patch level 1.65 with many custom additions to accommodate the player style of today but keeping the classic flair.

So, who should "gtfo" ?

For me personally, the "classic flair" means that there aren't 10 hotbars filled with crap for each character and people don't run around with stupid morphs etc, and we got old frontiers and old RAs. Details like giving everyone 204% speed is not hurting that "classic flair" at all. IMHO, this would clearly be a "custom addition" that accomodates the player style of today.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 6:42 AM by Terrorsauce

Its a great idea and a great change. Frontiers is to big for the basic runspeed you get. People run in zergs because they need to attach themselves to a Bard, mini, or skald to run around effectively. Giving more classes speed means people wont have to group with a zerg.

Scenario: Your a mentalist. You log in. You have a buddy thats a chanter. He is on too. You both want tto rvr. There is a zerg running around they could easily join and get that bard speed.

The way it is now they have to join the zerg to be effective. The way OPs idea works is that now they can choose to go out as a duo and survive/be effective. This means that instead of 8+ people including that chanter and ment running through emain with impunity, you get a chanter/mentalist duo running into emain. Thats a pretty fun fight if your a stealther or another duo doing the same. However people dont do that right now because you get shit on by the zerg.

I dont understand why people dont get that lack of speed versus how big the frontiers are and with the tasks rotating and changing as they do effects peoples decision rather or not they will leave the portal keep. SPEED IS A HUGE FACTOR IN THIS GAME. If you make it available to more classes more options arise.

People want to complain about the zerg when the obvious fix is right in front of your face. They added runspeed pots in live and what happened? Classes ran around as solo and duos that never did before. Why? Because they were mobile and could compete. Camelot unchained, every class has a travel form. The entire BG scenarios is a giant zerg right? Not true. The ones that know how to use travel form will break off and have small awesome skirmishes that are really fun. without travel form you cant break away from the zerg fast enough.

This is a great server and RvR tasks are a great idea. But you have to give more classes speed or find a way to give speed to more people. It will break the zerg.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 8:10 AM by Kaziera

While you have a point concerning the size of the frontier, i think ppl can solve this problem alone. The xp is so easy that its just not a big deal roll a speedclass-alt. I did it. All it took was 3 evenings.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 9:31 AM by Terrorsauce

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 8:10 AM
While you have a point concerning the size of the frontier, i think ppl can solve this problem alone. The xp is so easy that its just not a big deal roll a speedclass-alt. I did it. All it took was 3 evenings.

This is not even a realistic option. Just saying,

"If you want speed, roll a speed class."

Is such a """EDITED """answer because it does not solve the core problem. The core issue is that people zerg and DO NOT choose to play specific classes because of how important runspeed is in the frontiers. Basically your saying the ment should roll bard instead. Which leads to a very stale and binary game like we see now. You cant have it both ways. You cant make rotating tasks and expect people not to zerg without giving them speed.

The bar is set at 204% runspeed in the frontiers. If you have anything less you are dead. You cant run from the zerg, they get you every time. This discourages any small man activity without one of the 3 runspeed 5 classes per realm. That leads to less variety and less over all pvp because people wont leave the portal keeps without their primary taxi.

Realm speed doesnt cut it. You can get to point A, maybe. But after you engage in one fight in the frontiers guess who has no more speed. Guess who is dead to the next zerg that rolls by? You are. Its time to stop being ridiculous by standing by 1.65 like statues. More runspeed means more variety and less zerg. Its time to wake up and get serious about this issue.

If a zerg runs at 204% runspeed why would anyone or anything venture out into the frontiers without stealth, 204% runspeed of their own, or in a zerg? Anything else and you are easy RP. It shouldnt be that binary in this game. Its lame, not fun, and if you just gave more classes speed it would solve a lot of issue and create more variety.

But we all want to be stupid and stand by some patch that was dropped in 2004 because we had a good time with friends when we were 13. You seek social nostalgia, not 1.65. Its time to make this game better. Why do the same thing that has failed over and over?

Thu 27 Sep 2018 1:01 PM by Kaziera

Terrorsauce wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 9:31 AM
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 8:10 AM
While you have a point concerning the size of the frontier, i think ppl can solve this problem alone. The xp is so easy that its just not a big deal roll a speedclass-alt. I did it. All it took was 3 evenings.

This is not even a realistic option. Just saying,

"If you want speed, roll a speed class."

Is such a brainlet answer because it does not solve the core problem. The core issue is that people zerg and DO NOT choose to play specific classes because of how important runspeed is in the frontiers. Basically your saying the ment should roll bard instead. Which leads to a very stale and binary game like we see now. You cant have it both ways. You cant make rotating tasks and expect people not to zerg without giving them speed.

The bar is set at 204% runspeed in the frontiers. If you have anything less you are dead. You cant run from the zerg, they get you every time. This discourages any small man activity without one of the 3 runspeed 5 classes per realm. That leads to less variety and less over all pvp because people wont leave the portal keeps without their primary taxi.

Realm speed doesnt cut it. You can get to point A, maybe. But after you engage in one fight in the frontiers guess who has no more speed. Guess who is dead to the next zerg that rolls by? You are. Its time to stop being ridiculous by standing by 1.65 like statues. More runspeed means more variety and less zerg. Its time to wake up and get serious about this issue.

If a zerg runs at 204% runspeed why would anyone or anything venture out into the frontiers without stealth, 204% runspeed of their own, or in a zerg? Anything else and you are easy RP. It shouldnt be that binary in this game. Its lame, not fun, and if you just gave more classes speed it would solve a lot of issue and create more variety.

But we all want to be stupid and stand by some patch that was dropped in 2004 because we had a good time with friends when we were 13. You seek social nostalgia, not 1.65. Its time to make this game better. Why do the same thing that has failed over and over?

No. Thats NOT the Problem. The problem is that ppl nowadays expect EVRYTHING to go their way.

I like my duo as ench and ment, so i insist speed gets buffed

I call bullshit here. If i can adapt, others can too. And you just recieved a report for calling my comment brainlet.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 1:31 PM by Anasth

Ok , if you want ti solo roll a speed class or stealth...or ...wait! Roll a minstrel we need more!

Thu 27 Sep 2018 1:39 PM by Kaziera

Nobody was talking about solo here. Oh wait. Lets give all classes 204 speed. And endo. And buffs. And...... oh. Wait. No.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 5:41 PM by

Uthred

i know, many will hate me for this, but as I have said a million times before, we will not change any speed things.

If you want speed in rvr, there are hastners and/or different classes, which offer different varities of speed. It is one of the best things in Daoc, that not all classes are the same and that you have differences between them.

Thu 27 Sep 2018 6:52 PM by Aincrad

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 5:41 PM
i know, many will hate me for this, but as I have said a million times before, we will not change any speed things.

If you want speed in rvr, there are hastners and/or different classes, which offer different varities of speed. It is one of the best things in Daoc, that not all classes are the same and that you have differences between them.

awesome, that is great news. Thank you!!

Thu 27 Sep 2018 7:48 PM by vulna

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 5:41 PM
It is one of the best things in Daoc, that not all classes are the same and that you have differences between them.

I don't disagree, it definitely is one of the best things about DAoC. However, giving speed 5 to a second class in each realm(Sorc, Heal, Ench,) is a long long way from making all classes the same. I acknowledge it is a step in that direction, albeit a very small step, but easily outweighed by the positive effect it has on roaming RvR of all types(smallman, fg, even zerg).

Thu 27 Sep 2018 8:39 PM by Zansobar

vulna wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 7:48 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Sep 2018 5:41 PM
It is one of the best things in Daoc, that not all classes are the same and that you have differences between them.

I don't disagree, it definitely is one of the best things about DAoC. However, giving speed 5 to a second class in each realm(Sorc, Heal, Ench,) is a long long way from making all classes the same. I acknowledge it is a step in that direction, albeit a very small step, but easily outweighed by the positive effect it has on roaming RvR of all types(smallman, fg, even zerg).

I propose instead of the existing caster speed classes getting speed 5 give it to underplayed hybrids, such as, Paladin, Friar, Champion, Thane etc.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 4:56 AM by Kaziera

Its not going to happen.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 8:10 PM by Terrorsauce

You gave all light tanks det.

You gave us endo 3 pots.

Those things made other classes less unique. Stop acting like your pure to 1.65. Its not. Its time to make this game great again by giving players more speed options to move around the frontiers. Dont let brainlets sway you because they are old and cant think anymore. Giving 204% runspeed to the other speed classes doesnt take anything away from minstrel, skald, or especially the bard. If you think those classes are speed taxis you probably dont know what your talking about. It would be equivalent to say...giving light tanks det....oh wait...

Rotating RvR tasks change the meta a lot. Unless you just want the mass suicide meta to continue its best to figure out ways to get people moving around the frontiers better. Which means speed of some type. It doesnt take away from the game or anyone or ruin anything to give people more mobility.

THE CREATOR OF THE GAME HIMSELF HAS SAID THIS ONE FACTOR IN DAOC WAS A MAJJOR FLAW THAT MADE THE GAME VERY STALE. Which is why in CU you will notice every class has a travel stance. Why? To break zerg. Does it work? Yep.
But you guys want to some how have it both ways. Rotating RvR tasks and complain about zergs rolling around. K.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:24 PM by defiasbandit

The real issue is that the speed classes are overpowered. Bards and minstrils are almost needed in any group size and it is not just because of their 204% speed.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:27 PM by Aincrad

This thread has already been answered. Deal with it. No need to continue to complain and whine about it.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:48 PM by schreon

In the face of a very unsatisfying "no" without further arguments, it is no wonder people continue debating. Terrorsauces' post might appear a bit furious, but I totally agree with its' content. As a proponent of sane custom changes, it is not comprehensible that this change is refused so steadfastly, only with a reference to the goal to not make classes too much equal. Terrorsauce is right that this argument appears to be very questionable in face of all the other custom changes (which all have a great effect on RvR and the overall feel on this server!).

I can understand all skepticism in this matter. But I cannot understand why this can't just be tested during beta. What is to lose? Is anyone afraid people might like this change?

Sat 29 Sep 2018 12:16 AM by Takii

Please enlighten us and provide an example of a custom change on this server that affects class balance and group composition even a fraction as much as giving speed 5 to a bunch of new classes would?

There are not enough people playing on this server in its current state to properly test a change like this, especially since the repercussions are more long term (some classes becoming unwanted in RvR, etc).

Sat 29 Sep 2018 10:12 AM by schreon

I don't understand the argument of population size. Especially when population is low (like during beta), the effects should be positive. It is so super apparent that the following would improve instantly:

- waiting time for building PUGs will be reduced, because you have less key classes you absolutely have to wait for
- 8v8 setup diversity would be increased
- more options when assembling small groups and duos -> more smalls and duos roaming everywhere
- fewer people who actually don't like playing a bard, playing a bard anyway because someone has to do it
- potentially the zergs split up a bit more

I think the potential positive effects are clear. Now let's compare the situation to the endu debate.

There are whole threads about endurance pots stealing the paladins' show. The endu-pot case is even more drastic in the context of "making classes too equal", as the pots basically mean "give yellow endurance self-buff to ALL classes (for exchange of some gold)". I am not saying this is a bad thing, what I am trying to say is that it seems very spurious to use this argument in order to protect the speed monopoly of bard/minstrel/skald, but at the same time ignore that argument when it comes to paladins (and also bards/shamans, but they got extra stuff that keeps them being useful).

Can someone explain to me in a friendly, understandable and consistent way why giving a endu4-selfbuff to everyone is accepted, but giving speed5 to classes who already have weaker forms of speed is rejected?

The only reasoning I can come up with is that endu5 is still reserved to bard/paladin/shaman and you "only" get up to endu4 from pots. If you look at this naively you could think that this is somewhat equivalent to giving everyone a weak form of speed (hastener and the low speed versions), but reserve speed5 to the speedclasses. However, if you really draw this analogy, you would have to delete Tireless, Long Wind realm abilities as well as instant endu pots in order to make this comparable. The problem is that endurance is very binary: either you can permasprint or not. Either you have a positive endurance balance, then you can keep styling while sprinting, or not. You can even drink instant endu potions while styling. So upgrading from endu4 to endu5 is worth almost nothing. On the other hand, speed5 is key to mitigate zergs / larger groups. If you have anything below speed5 (-> speed6), you can no longer decide to not fight. Hence, the difference between speedX and speed5 is extreme, whereas the difference between having endu4 and endu5 is negligible.

Is this what the reasoning is? If not, I am honestly interested in a proper explanation how the endu-pot case is different from the speed case. I don't want to start a flame war here or anything, I just don't get it (yet). Also, I think it is important to state here again that I am of course grateful that the Devs and GMs give us their services for free, please don't mistake my enthusiasm and excitement in this matter as disrespectful.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:39 PM by Takii

The effect being different in a low population vs a high population setting is specifically why testing this change now would yield misleading results.

Sat 29 Sep 2018 2:57 PM by isocleas2

I don't see why you'd ever run a skald if Rm/Aug healer have speed 5. Can't think of a single situation I wouldn't prefer another light tank or healer over it.

Fri 12 Oct 2018 9:44 PM by Terrorsauce

schreon wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 9:48 PM
In the face of a very unsatisfying "no" without further arguments, it is no wonder people continue debating. Terrorsauces' post might appear a bit furious, but I totally agree with its' content. As a proponent of sane custom changes, it is not comprehensible that this change is refused so steadfastly, only with a reference to the goal to not make classes too much equal. Terrorsauce is right that this argument appears to be very questionable in face of all the other custom changes (which all have a great effect on RvR and the overall feel on this server!).

I can understand all skepticism in this matter. But I cannot understand why this can't just be tested during beta. What is to lose? Is anyone afraid people might like this change?

The reason is because the devs and the 3 players vocal about it are 8 manners. They want to force you into an 8 man group to pvp. They gave horses and speed pots in live and people played those classes still. Again this is nothing more than 8 mans trying to keep smaller groups from running the same speed without the designated class. Which can be done fine right now. If your forced to play 1 of the three classes its ok you can get away. But if your not, ITS SUPER BAD AND WRONG GRRRR! This is literally the thought process of 99% of the 8 man boomer autists here. Again, anything that can potentially stop people from being forced to group up into a 8 man will be cried about. Thats just who these brainlets are. They cant get people to naturally play their play style so they try to force you into it.

Let me ask you. What is the difference between a Misntrel, Sorc, and Merc in a group, or a sorc, merc, and cabilist on horses. NOTHING BUT INCREASED VARIETY.

Whats the only down side? None. In the 8 mans mind they think it makes it harder for them to catch imaginary solos and small mans without speed 6. But in reality those people dont leave the keep. So basically there is no down side other than 8 mans stifling the server variety for their own bias and play style. Which will only hurt the server late in life.

The way I see it with the brainlet decisions and blatant bias towards 8 mans, feather drops, and XP rates, this server will be fun for about 3-4 months then die because only 40 8 manners will be playing. Its like the developers took their 8 man arena buddies and asked them what direction the server should go. Its not like we havnt done this 4-5 times before.

Same shit, same server, same time line. Another DAoc Server with potential ruined by a type of player that has a population of 40 people.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 12:05 AM by defiasbandit

Hastener speed for every class. Make 3-4 classes with 204% speed per realm. You are right. Too many players here are stuck in 2002 with their nostalgia goggles strapped to their skulls wondering why DAOC is dead and why DAOC private servers fail. Get players into the action faster.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 12:06 AM by isocleas2

So because some players prefer to not radically alter the server they're only interested in 8mans? Your obsession over this is frankly disturbing, instead of engaging in reasonable debate over a controversial idea you instead prefer to just flame your way out.

Don't let the door hit ya

Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:49 AM by Tree

At first I thought that was stupid. I mean really, as a Hib you have to have a bard in your party, because thats just how it is done since the beginning of time. Then I thought "Huh, but do you really?"
Maybe thats a good change and would certainly help out smaller groups.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 6:58 AM by rubaduck

Tree wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:49 AM
At first I thought that was stupid. I mean really, as a Hib you have to have a bard in your party, because thats just how it is done since the beginning of time. Then I thought "Huh, but do you really?"
Maybe thats a good change and would certainly help out smaller groups.

Bard is there for speed of course, but the primary reason you bring a bard is CC. If you would give other classes on hib 204% speed, you'd still need a bard for CC which then makes it redundant. I'm of course thinking about smallmen and 8 man here, not solo.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 2:53 PM by Niix

Skald would be only class affected by this change, luckily skalds are still a crazy good solo class and have a valuable spot in tank groups... I’m not sure it is better than putting in another savage tbh but you would still see them played... alb and hib would still field lots of minstrels/bards.

I get the reservations but personally I don’t really care, it would be nice to see more comp options in mid when running caster groups and not plugging a skald for no reason but speed ZzZzz

Sat 13 Oct 2018 10:45 PM by Tree

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 6:58 AM
Tree wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Oct 2018 5:49 AM
At first I thought that was stupid. I mean really, as a Hib you have to have a bard in your party, because thats just how it is done since the beginning of time. Then I thought "Huh, but do you really?"
Maybe thats a good change and would certainly help out smaller groups.

Bard is there for speed of course, but the primary reason you bring a bard is CC. If you would give other classes on hib 204% speed, you'd still need a bard for CC which then makes it redundant. I'm of course thinking about smallmen and 8 man here, not solo.

Granted in 8vs8 you must have the CC also. Smallman however you could do without mezz, maybe try to work with stun, root, snare or NS instead. Without speed and thus the ability to choose your fights you are fodder.
So yeah in RvR always bring speed 6.

Sat 13 Oct 2018 10:52 PM by Kaziera

Not going to happen.