Adjust PA to new Hp - Phoenix Freeshard

Its kinda joke when u make on a caster 350 pa.

at least u should double dmg to come closer to reality

i

Tue 7 Jan 2020 6:40 PM by chryso

Double seems a bit much. After all, they did not double the hit points.

Tue 7 Jan 2020 7:08 PM by vxr

Double? I don't want to live in your reality lol

Tue 7 Jan 2020 11:44 PM by shintacki

Increase damage to bolt spells too. And Levi for reavers, and crit shot for archers, and valewalker style procs...

See the problem? Yeah the HP boosts had the wide reaching effects of being a nerf to any class that relies on burst damage but I don’t think the devs care. And I don’t think you can change one class without changing the rest and then what was the point of the changes to begin with?

Wed 8 Jan 2020 12:17 AM by Loki

Only on Phoenix, casters can walk out with full hp after PA+CD.

Fri 10 Jan 2020 4:41 AM by Eckso

Simple fix, spec higher in Crit. I perf for 500-600 at 50 spec ^_^

Sun 12 Jan 2020 10:31 PM by easytoremember

shintacki wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Jan 2020 11:44 PM
Increase damage to bolt spells too. And Levi for reavers, and crit shot for archers, and valewalker style procs...

See the problem?

no all those things sound good

Fri 17 Jan 2020 8:43 PM by Siouxsie

No. Just remove Enervating (weaponskill / con debuff) poison from game.

Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:30 PM by Cadebrennus

Remove PD from Casters. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:13 PM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:30 PM
Remove PD from Casters. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

pd is def not the problem lol. pa dmg is just bad in general. it was bad before the hp update.

shoutout to cade chiming in on shit he knows nothing about, because he doesnt play on this server.

Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:30 PM
Remove PD from Casters. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

pd is def not the problem lol. pa dmg is just bad in general. it was bad before the hp update.

shoutout to cade chiming in on shit he knows nothing about, because he doesnt play on this server.

lol it's still funny to see trolls like you still doing troll things.

Sat 18 Jan 2020 7:02 AM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:30 PM
Remove PD from Casters. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

pd is def not the problem lol. pa dmg is just bad in general. it was bad before the hp update.

shoutout to cade chiming in on shit he knows nothing about, because he doesnt play on this server.

lol it's still funny to see trolls like you still doing troll things.

funny to see clueless ppl still suggesting fixes without knowing the root of the problem, super helpful and very insightful lol.

Sat 18 Jan 2020 8:45 AM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 7:02 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:13 PM
pd is def not the problem lol. pa dmg is just bad in general. it was bad before the hp update.

shoutout to cade chiming in on shit he knows nothing about, because he doesnt play on this server.

lol it's still funny to see trolls like you still doing troll things.

funny to see clueless ppl still suggesting fixes without knowing the root of the problem, super helpful and very insightful lol.

If I'm clueless and it's a bad suggestion then point out where it's wrong and make a better suggestion, instead of just going for direct and meaningless personal attacks.

Sat 18 Jan 2020 5:47 PM by sylvynyr

Casters have around 1800hp IIRC templated, so even perfing for 600 seems skewed toward caster survivability. Not to mention pretty much everyone also gets SpecAF buff.

Example:
NS, RR3, 44+13CS, 3.1spd 99qual Blade, 228str (40+15 starting + 15 tertiary + 75 gear + 83 potbuff)

Out of 17 PAs recently logged:
Average damage of 302
Low 246 (3L8 Pally)
High 389 (4L2 Sorc)
Essentially all targets with 26% resists (+racials)

****Damage modifiers ranged from a low of 790 up to a high of 1249.... out of 3000 (cap).
Maxing @ 41.6% of cap

Cap damage should be 938
-243+CS*18+UnstyledCap = -243+57*18+155 = ~938 cap (on live it would be ~743)
938/3000*1249 = ~389 (same as max hit)
938/3000*790 = ~246 (same as min hit)

The issue doesn't necessarily seem to exist with PA damage directly, but rather the difficulty of assassins to increase their weapon stat high enough, especially at lower RR levels, to improve their damage modifier. Pot buffs just don't seem to do it. And yes, I recognize Bladeshades are even tougher since both Elf and Keen start with low str and that Pierce might be a better choice given all other server factors, plus the recent armor vuln change further reducing melee damage by 5% for some situations.

These challenges were overcome on Live with TOA bonuses and buffbots.
Again, PA damage is already improved on this server at high CS spec (still sucks at low spec eg. Thid where BS2 outdamages PA).
The underlying issue seems to be more related to the challenge of improving weapon stats while running solo/stealth with pot buffs instead of player based conc buffs/grouping while keeping highRR/group RvR balanced.

Sat 18 Jan 2020 10:29 PM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 8:45 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 7:02 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Jan 2020 11:19 PM
lol it's still funny to see trolls like you still doing troll things.

funny to see clueless ppl still suggesting fixes without knowing the root of the problem, super helpful and very insightful lol.

If I'm clueless and it's a bad suggestion then point out where it's wrong and make a better suggestion, instead of just going for direct and meaningless personal attacks.

if youll refer to the portion where i said PA dmg is bad in general, it was bad before the update. there are many posts in this forum about the pa dmg formula and the problems with it. you just come in and latch onto some remark undacover makes about casters and pa, then you just chime out nerf pd. pd is not the problem here. pa dmg is bad on everyone, not just the ppl with pd.

Sun 19 Jan 2020 12:25 AM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 10:29 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 8:45 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 7:02 AM
funny to see clueless ppl still suggesting fixes without knowing the root of the problem, super helpful and very insightful lol.

If I'm clueless and it's a bad suggestion then point out where it's wrong and make a better suggestion, instead of just going for direct and meaningless personal attacks.

if youll refer to the portion where i said PA dmg is bad in general, it was bad before the update. there are many posts in this forum about the pa dmg formula and the problems with it. you just come in and latch onto some remark undacover makes about casters and pa, then you just chime out nerf pd. pd is not the problem here. pa dmg is bad on everyone, not just the ppl with pd.

Perhaps suggest incremental changes then, like removing PD from Casters, which causes problems for Assassins, Archers, and Tanks alike? It's a common problem. Look at common solutions, rather than a solution which benefits only one type of class.

Sun 19 Jan 2020 1:01 AM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 12:25 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 10:29 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 8:45 AM
If I'm clueless and it's a bad suggestion then point out where it's wrong and make a better suggestion, instead of just going for direct and meaningless personal attacks.

if youll refer to the portion where i said PA dmg is bad in general, it was bad before the update. there are many posts in this forum about the pa dmg formula and the problems with it. you just come in and latch onto some remark undacover makes about casters and pa, then you just chime out nerf pd. pd is not the problem here. pa dmg is bad on everyone, not just the ppl with pd.

Perhaps suggest incremental changes then, like removing PD from Casters, which causes problems for Assassins, Archers, and Tanks alike? It's a common problem. Look at common solutions, rather than a solution which benefits only one type of class.

so let me get this straight. youre proposing to nerf pd in order to fix pa?

PA DMG IS BAD ON EVERYONE, NOT JUST PPL WITH PD. lol cade youre a joke at this point lol.

Sun 19 Jan 2020 1:24 AM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 1:01 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 12:25 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 10:29 PM
if youll refer to the portion where i said PA dmg is bad in general, it was bad before the update. there are many posts in this forum about the pa dmg formula and the problems with it. you just come in and latch onto some remark undacover makes about casters and pa, then you just chime out nerf pd. pd is not the problem here. pa dmg is bad on everyone, not just the ppl with pd.

Perhaps suggest incremental changes then, like removing PD from Casters, which causes problems for Assassins, Archers, and Tanks alike? It's a common problem. Look at common solutions, rather than a solution which benefits only one type of class.

so let me get this straight. youre proposing to nerf pd in order to fix pa?

PA DMG IS BAD ON EVERYONE, NOT JUST PPL WITH PD. lol cade youre a joke at this point lol.

You keep suggesting to help only one class instead of helping many. Let's start with what's good for everyone, then go from there.

Sun 19 Jan 2020 2:26 AM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 1:24 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 1:01 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Jan 2020 12:25 AM
Perhaps suggest incremental changes then, like removing PD from Casters, which causes problems for Assassins, Archers, and Tanks alike? It's a common problem. Look at common solutions, rather than a solution which benefits only one type of class.

so let me get this straight. youre proposing to nerf pd in order to fix pa?

PA DMG IS BAD ON EVERYONE, NOT JUST PPL WITH PD. lol cade youre a joke at this point lol.

You keep suggesting to help only one class instead of helping many. Let's start with what's good for everyone, then go from there.

this is quite literally a thread specifically about one class archetype (once again cade is totally off subject and lacks context). also pd isnt even that broken for solos imo (with some classes). i think the problem with pd is when you have heals involved (like bds, or a dedicated healer). in effect the pd makes the hp you have far more valuable and if you have a way of replenishing it, then it gets a bit absurd (bds with melee trains on them and it doesnt matter is dumb.)

but to assume that pd is the reason PA isnt good is just flat out wrong, most of the ppl i fight dont even have pd and my pa is still garb. when i do come across a caster with pd, it really doesnt matter. moc casting is far more valuable to them than pd lol.

your fix does nothing, just like most of your fixes imo.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 7:43 AM by Taniquetil

Removing PD = massive effect on all gameplay, including 8v8. Not gonna happen.

Boosting PA damage modifiers to be in line with new HP pools on server. Makes more sense.

Pd would also affect every hit, whereas PA boost would affect 1 style with 2 prerequisites that is supposed to deal massive damage on inc but at the moment hit’s for less than a con debuff making it essentially a complete waste of time

This RR4 enchanter was able to survive PA+Con debuff + 2 part follow up chain and 2x 2 part side chains.

That takes longer than the duration of a 7 sec CD stun. That’s just wrong on so many levels of the game. For ref this is on a RR7, 44CS spec Thrust Inf.

Inb4 ‘yeah but you killed him’ If you think PA should do less damage to a rr4 caster than a condebuff with...someone can verify...but quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies... its a bit silly.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:45 AM by Dragonn

just roll back the hp change! and gg

Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:51 PM by Lipsi

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 7:43 AM
Inb4 ‘yeah but you killed him’ If you think PA should do less damage to a rr4 caster than a condebuff with...someone can verify...but quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies... its a bit silly.

Casters don't have 1700 to 1800 hp, this is just false.
The real figures -> Elf caster rr5 fully templated without toughness / increased constitution :
- unbuffed : 1184
- buffed with combined forces : 1486

You can debuff con on top of this If i am right (might not because i don't play a stealther myself) Str/con + WS/con to totally negate the combined forces and even more.

You got unlucky with few crits and of low values (given your high crit rate)
You got unlucky with one resist (may be the poison constit debuff? )
You got unlucky with no weapon procs
Target got lucky with certainly some reactive heals.

In normal conditions it would have taken an average PA+4 swings +/- 1 (from the odds)

And finally, you'd do the same damage to a RR1 through RR10 caster unless they spec in physical defense- which isn't really worth it on that particular fight nor against any caster fight vs stealther (high rr caster would have to spend much needed RA points to get an extra 1 or 2 second survivability on a fight that would require them to burn Purge/QC/heal pot/heart to get the slighest chance that is, if QC mezz isn't resisted and you don't have your own purge up nor vanish).

So do you think, PA + 4 swings is too much to kill a caster regardless of his rank... it's a bit silly. (sounds like stealthers are too used to PA+1 swing lvl sub-40 cloth wearers not templated, and assume it should be the same against any opponent, but hey, they also have the privilege to choose their targets and which fight they engage into, and always keep the option to retreat with vanish).
And how "every caster" just get away from PA with full life remains a mystery to me.

What i agree on, is that it would be best to revert the HP buff. From the caster point of view, i can tell you i'd rather loose those extra 250 hp and be able to fight again solo against light melees, rather than have this hp pool to survive one extra swing once ennemy is already on melee range with CC immunity and QC burnt.

Some more reading :

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 8 Dec 2019 9:09 AM
Let me give an example that many people seem to have in mind when it comes to pa damage "from back then" and then take it so it matches our environment:

Assume toa just came out a couple days ago, everyone is doing their toa stuff but you're in the frontier as an infiltrator, still in your full cap SI template and fully bb buffed, for this example you have a pa cap damage of exactly 1000.

Along comes an oceanus random caster, about 800 hp and let's say 12% resist and entirely unbufffed except for self af and absorb, against this target you would hit around 65% of your cap making the average pa damage about 654 (with variance 549 - 763).

A day later the same caster comes back but this time with the sc finished, the oceanus random caster evolved to a caster, you're now looking at 960hp and 26% resists, your pa will hit for 550 (with variance 462 - 641)

A day later the same caster now found some 75 spec af charge, now it's 498 (419 - 582)

Now let's replace the 75 spec af charge with our 50 from potion buffs, it's 514 (432 - 600).

Now let's remove your bb and replace it with potion buffs, now it's 445 (374 - 519).

This is what you're looking at, bbs don't exist here and oceanus randoms are basically as rare as unicorns, virtually everyone you encounter is in sc and potion buffed which includes spec af.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:00 PM by Amser

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:51 PM
You can debuff con on top of this If i am right (might not because i don't play a stealther myself) Str/con + WS/con to totally negate the combined forces and even more.

This was "fixed" months ago. They no longer stack.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:12 PM by gromet12

Taniquetil wrote: Removing PD = massive effect on all gameplay, including 8v8. Not gonna happen.

Boosting PA damage modifiers to be in line with new HP pools on server. Makes more sense.

Pd would also affect every hit, whereas PA boost would affect 1 style with 2 prerequisites that is supposed to deal massive damage on inc but at the moment hit’s for less than a con debuff making it essentially a complete waste of time

This RR4 enchanter was able to survive PA+Con debuff + 2 part follow up chain and 2x 2 part side chains.

That takes longer than the duration of a 7 sec CD stun. That’s just wrong on so many levels of the game. For ref this is on a RR7, 44CS spec Thrust Inf.

Inb4 ‘yeah but you killed him’ If you think PA should do less damage to a rr4 caster than a condebuff with...someone can verify...but quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies... its a bit silly.

More dmg than what an archers critical shot would do, plus all those additional abilities sins have (followup stun, debuffs, snares, disease, DOTs). If we are not addressing PD and Spec AF on everyone; then your dmg is higher than I would expect as rr6 hunter on a caster

Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:13 PM by Taniquetil

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:51 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 7:43 AM
Inb4 ‘yeah but you killed him’ If you think PA should do less damage to a rr4 caster than a condebuff with...someone can verify...but quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies... its a bit silly.

Casters don't have 1700 to 1800 hp, this is just false.
I didn't say they had that much HP. I said "Quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies"

For that, in terms of game balance you really should be balancing to high end play, not low end. Catering to low end players kills games, it gives mid levels nothing to look to improve upon, bores high end players, and just creates a mudpit.

Re Condebuff, that's always my first mainhand poison, so no resist. the 26% resist rate is actually just the STR debuff in my rotation that's more force of habit than anything.

But PA and Str/Con dont stack, so basically it means that my PA a lot of the time is just straight up as effective as just whiffing unstyled at someone. <aka pointless> I've even posted videos of PA'ing people, and being Pa'd by people and being on 100% health still because of the con debuff being more effective than PA. It's silly.

And finally, you'd do the same damage to a RR1 through RR10 caster unless they spec in physical defense

my point here was that at RR4 PD was unlikely, but realistically PD is actually very strong, go fight a PD5+ BD/SM/Sorc with MoC or similar as a melee.

And how "every caster" just get away from PA with full life remains a mystery to me.

I dont understand this, unless it's shorthand for the fact that i said PA is less effective than a con debuff? Which it is. Which imo is the real, key issue, especially when coupled with Ablative buffs.

What i agree on, is that it would be best to revert the HP buff.
Agreed but unlikely

Some more reading :
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 8 Dec 2019 9:09 AM
This is what you're looking at, bbs don't exist here and oceanus randoms are basically as rare as unicorns, virtually everyone you encounter is in sc and potion buffed which includes spec af.
So why are we balancing in exactly the same way as a different server where Buffbots dont Exist, ToA doesnt exist, and everyone is SC pot buffed including spec AF. Surely we should balance for the server we're playing on?

The Key issue here is an assassin should be able to get a markedly quick kill and escape a situation, that's literally their gameplay objective, here a kill vs their squishiest, juciest opponent who merrily jog's in a straight line, takes 10+ sec to kill, doesnt feel right as the eye of Sauron of the coast guards/zergs/patrollers will turn and mow you down. and tbh even if you dont PA them it takes exactly the same amount of time making PA a tool of minimal net benefit. You can just be pretty damn sure you're gonna have to purge their CC.

Kinda feels like a chanter heat debuffing someone and then DD'ing for the same damage. decorative at best.

BS1 or BS2 are flat out better vs tanks, for a multitude of reasons right now. Seems silly.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:33 PM by Lipsi

Taniquetil,
i understand your point, i simply point out that the 10 seconds fight you are referring to, or even a 7 second fight, is just not the norm.
Any caster you will fight will have 1500hp and more probably under 1100hp or even 1000hp after debuff. Be the con debuff stacks or not between PA, str/con and /or WS/con i have no idea, as i mentionned i don't play stealther, but my point was that it doesnt take 1700 damage to kill a caster. Unless he is healed. A lot.

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 18 Jan 2020 5:47 PM
Casters have around 1800hp IIRC templated

Nor do they have 1800hp unless may be we are talking of shar, half-ogr and norsemen ? or with +155 from buffs ? But not with +83 from potions.

Any normal fight without external help and heals would likely last under 5 seconds. Not mentionning all the casters that do not have a lifetap.

my point here was that at RR4 PD was unlikely, but realistically PD is actually very strong, go fight a PD5+ BD/SM/Sorc with MoC or similar as a melee.

Problem you'd have with PD5 BD/SM/Sorc isn't about PD. Go fight a BD/SM/Sorc with MoC as a caster works too in your sentence. It is all about MOC+lifetap.
Indeed, PD5 gives 10% of physical resistance, so an extra 0.5 swing survival. RM/Eld/Ment with MoC even with PD wouldn't fit your example for instance.

And it takes RR7L4 to get PD9+MOC5, 8L4 to add purge 2, 8L8 for Master of focus 3, and then you can "start" leveling your character damage and casting speed. You would get a very low performing caster for such a high rank, and even can only unleash your "potential" every 10 minutes.
I'm sure by 8L8 any stealther can get enough tools to avoid that fight or retreat from it (Purge, vanish, IP3, etc) and can come back 30 seconds later to finish it, without being annoyed by MOC

Specifically about PA, it still pierces BT and is an opening from stealth to a 7s physical stun + the 380-520 damage. It's hard to raly your cause (not yours specifically but i'm talking here of all stealthers) when you call that unworthy compared to an unstyled hit. Tho i understand it is natural to wish the best for the toon/archetype you play, but i think your request is biaised from a stealther point of view, and if you played a caster, you'd realize this is not an issue (as i told, i'd gladly loose those extra 250hp that were added on caster if light melee toons revert to original HP pool too).

My comment you didn't understant was a reaction to another post of this thread.

Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Jan 2020 12:17 AM
Only on Phoenix, casters can walk out with full hp after PA+CD.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 5:11 PM by Isavyr

What, exactly, is the complaint? That an assassin might need to purge vs a caster? Do they really expect such brainless gameplay as 1-shot abilities? Vs caster, assassin always guaranteed win?

I'd rather see assassins get tools that allow them to fight in all types of RvR instead of the brainless ganking that 90% of stealth players choose.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:31 PM by Riac

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:12 PM
Taniquetil wrote: Removing PD = massive effect on all gameplay, including 8v8. Not gonna happen.

Boosting PA damage modifiers to be in line with new HP pools on server. Makes more sense.

Pd would also affect every hit, whereas PA boost would affect 1 style with 2 prerequisites that is supposed to deal massive damage on inc but at the moment hit’s for less than a con debuff making it essentially a complete waste of time

This RR4 enchanter was able to survive PA+Con debuff + 2 part follow up chain and 2x 2 part side chains.

That takes longer than the duration of a 7 sec CD stun. That’s just wrong on so many levels of the game. For ref this is on a RR7, 44CS spec Thrust Inf.

Inb4 ‘yeah but you killed him’ If you think PA should do less damage to a rr4 caster than a condebuff with...someone can verify...but quickmaths says 1700hp that one needs to chew through before he dies... its a bit silly.

More dmg than what an archers critical shot would do, plus all those additional abilities sins have (followup stun, debuffs, snares, disease, DOTs). If we are not addressing PD and Spec AF on everyone; then your dmg is higher than I would expect as rr6 hunter on a caster

comparing a shot that you can perform from a huge range to one that you have to be up in their face to execute is apples to oranges (not to mention that next shot is already in the air and your lame ass group mates are also shooting.

pls get out of here with that archer trash. also, archers get alot of those things you mentioned; like, stuns, debuffs, snares, and dots.

also, it seems like tani and the other guy are off on a tangent. im pretty sure no one in here (aside from cade lol but hes doesnt know shit) actually thinks pd is the problem.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:54 PM by Taniquetil

Well made points

Nice debate tbh, thanks Lipsi.

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 3:33 PM
Taniquetil,
i understand your point, i simply point out that the 10 seconds fight you are referring to, or even a 7 second fight, is just not the norm.
Nor do they have 1800hp unless may be we are talking of shar, half-ogr and norsemen ? or with +155 from buffs ? But not with +83 from potions.
Actually does really feel more and more like the norm lately if I'm honest, as anyone half decent runs around with all the bonus tools and double heals, so you are figuratively fighting a caster with 1700-1800HP or however many you want to call it, that the fight length has increased to a duration that facilitates adding/zerging/coastguarding, which is not great.

Problem you'd have with PD5 BD/SM/Sorc isn't about PD. Go fight a BD/SM/Sorc with MoC as a caster works too in your sentence. It is all about MOC+lifetap.
Indeed, PD5 gives 10% of physical resistance, so an extra 0.5 swing survival. RM/Eld/Ment with MoC even with PD wouldn't fit your example for instance.
Yeah fair, maybe a bad example from me, but the fight would still be plenty tough if PA did a bit more damage, so the fact that once a small investment is made it nullifies any PA opener to being less effective than the con debuff feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth. fwiw, I still do ok vs most, but once you see a rr8+ SM/BD. Just not even worth touching tbh.. that feels like another topic though, and realistically a challenge is good, because if a soloer attacks a BD/SM with a CHANCE of winning, then great, otherwise the SM/BD whatever is just gonna get assjammed all the time by 2 or 3 or 4 and have less fun themselves

Specifically about PA, it still pierces BT and is an opening from stealth to a 7s physical stun + the 380-520 damage. It's hard to raly your cause (not yours specifically but i'm talking here of all stealthers) when you call that unworthy compared to an unstyled hit.

So slightly, conflating here, yes of course the stun is good, however with short timers you kinda have to expect a purge on that so the PA does the same as a con debuff, making something like Ice Storm more powerful as an opener and BS1/2 really the king due to immunity timers. Realistically in top tier stealther game, it's expected.

I made the point a while back, but realistically, with purge up, I know i can eat a PA and still comfortably win a fight, that's not right, I don't want that. See video here fight at 6min36 sec: https://youtu.be/6uekQdzynBA?t=392
Here i eat a PA (running unstealthed, and still walk through the opponent, and grimsters is a good player), I don't want that. I fucked up there, I was pissing about sprinting over a bridge unstealthed. I should be at a severe disadvantage there, but instead quite the opposite is true, I know that 9 times out of 10 i'll win that fight despite me being the one who ate the PA. That's my big issue with it :/

My comment you didn't understant was a reaction to another post of this thread.
Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Jan 2020 12:17 AM
Only on Phoenix, casters can walk out with full hp after PA+CD.
Lol. Biting my tongue. I'll leave that for the stealther thread

Wed 29 Jan 2020 8:07 PM by sylvynyr

Just FYI

My 50 Lurikeen Mentalist has 1686hp Druid buffed to 253 Con

40 base Con
+ 75 gear
+ 138 from Red Con and Yellow Str/Con buffs
+200hp gear

For comparison, here's a night from a few weeks ago of PAs on my NS with 44+13 CS pot buffed including a MASSIVE (o_O) 389 damage perf against a Sorc...

[20:12:20] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+384)
[20:12:20] You attack Khaosield with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 294 (-165) damage! (Damage Modifier: 943)
Warrior - Level 50 - Realm Rank 2L9 - Kobold Isen Vakten

[20:20:46] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+354)
[20:20:46] You attack Eagless with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 305 (-118) damage! (Damage Modifier: 979)
Mercenary - Level 50 - Realm Rank 6L5 - Highlander Phoenix Knight

[20:41:25] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+354)
[20:41:25] You attack Cougarakus with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 301 (-122) damage! (Damage Modifier: 966)
Cleric - Level 50 - Realm Rank 8L5 - Briton Unicorn Knight

[20:20:56] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+322)
[20:20:56] You attack Shenmue with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 277 (-107) damage! (Damage Modifier: 891)
Reaver - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L8 - Saracen Gryphon Knight

[20:33:12] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+439)
[20:33:12] You attack Rokttar with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 373 (-152) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1198)
Infiltrator - Level 50 - Realm Rank 3L9 - Briton Myrmidon

[20:34:27] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+354)
[20:34:27] You attack Rickybobbi with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 305 (-118) damage! (Damage Modifier: 979)
Minstrel - Level 50 - Realm Rank 7L4 - Highlander Alerion Knight

[21:51:19] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+440)
[21:51:19] You attack Xillix with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 379 (-147) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1215)
Infiltrator - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L8 - Saracen Gryphon Knight

[21:57:23] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+439)
[21:57:23] You attack Reianx with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 389 (-136) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1249)
Sorcerer - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L2 - Inconnu Gryphon Knight

[22:07:56] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+311)
[22:07:56] You attack the abomination with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 264 (-107) damage! (Damage Modifier: 849)

[22:19:11] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+312)
[22:19:11] You attack Uunnee with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 265 (-108) damage! (Damage Modifier: 852)
Cleric - Level 50 - Realm Rank 10L2 - Briton Dragon Knight

[23:01:40] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+309)
[23:01:40] You attack Pandorax with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 263 (-107) damage! (Damage Modifier: 844)
Cleric - Level 50 - Realm Rank 9L1 - Briton Lion Knight

[23:09:29] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+353)
[23:09:29] You attack the abomination with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 300 (-122) damage! (Damage Modifier: 965)

[23:20:13] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+359)
[23:20:13] You attack Armetes with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 305 (-124) damage! (Damage Modifier: 978)
Mercenary - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L4 - Half Ogre Gryphon Knight

[23:27:22] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+267)
[23:27:22] A barrier absorbs 73 damage of your attack!
[23:27:22] You attack Adakan with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 173 (-73) damage! (Damage Modifier: 790)
Paladin - Level 50 - Realm Rank 3L8 - Highlander Myrmidon

[23:28:51] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+359)
[23:28:51] You attack Armetes with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 305 (-124) damage! (Damage Modifier: 978)
Mercenary - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L4 - Half Ogre Gryphon Knight

[23:29:17] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+343)
[23:29:17] You attack Strikedown with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 295 (-114) damage! (Damage Modifier: 949)
Mercenary - Level 50 - Realm Rank 5L1 - Highlander Eagle Knight

[23:32:43] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+319)
[23:32:43] You attack Gordylabrute with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 275 (-106) damage! (Damage Modifier: 885)
Armsman - Level 50 - Realm Rank 5L6 - Highlander Eagle Knight

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:31 PM by Pao

Ridiculous... sins are strong enough....

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:40 PM by Riac

tbh, i kinda like that pa sucks (im talking about in a sin vs sin fight, since those are the ppl im wanting to fight and actively hunting. despite what everyone else thinks). it sucks to start a fight extremely behind because you ate a pa from another sin, especially when the EU sins can see NA sins MUCH EARLIER.
it just hurts when fighting tanks and blue con aboms. i think a PA should WRECK a blue con abom (esp considering they get to uninterupt LT the hp back, w/o disease doing anything at all)
when you pa a tank, he just leisurely turns around and slams you, then proceeds to fucking wreck you, esp if its a dual wielder ( i dont even pop on them unless they are sub r4 or i know they dont slam, and im 9l6 lol). the only real way to beat tough tanks is to just swap poisons like a crazy person to keep them dotted and fully debuffed at all times. if you can get s/c and str poison on him before he slams you, you might have a decent shot.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:42 PM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:40 PM
tbh, i kinda like that pa sucks (im talking about in a sin vs sin fight, since those are the ppl im wanting to fight and actively hunting. despite what everyone else thinks). it sucks to start a fight extremely behind because you ate a pa from another sin, especially when the EU sins can see NA sins MUCH EARLIER.
it just hurts when fighting tanks and blue con aboms. i think a PA should WRECK a blue con abom (esp considering they get to uninterupt LT the hp back, w/o disease doing anything at all)
when you pa a tank, he just leisurely turns around and slams you, then proceeds to fucking wreck you, esp if its a dual wielder ( i dont even pop on them unless they are sub r4 or i know they dont slam, and im 9l6 lol). the only real way to beat tough tanks is to just swap poisons like a crazy person to keep them dotted and fully debuffed at all times. if you can get s/c and str poison on him before he slams you, you might have a decent shot.

RPS

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:46 PM by Lipsi

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 8:07 PM
Just FYI

For comparison, here's a night from a few weeks ago of PAs on my NS with 44+13 CS pot buffed including a MASSIVE (o_O) 389 damage perf against a Sorc...

[21:57:23] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+439)
[21:57:23] You attack Reianx with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 389 (-136) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1249)
Sorcerer - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L2 - Inconnu Gryphon Knight

Why do you compare your HP with red druid buffs as a mentalist with the PA you did with a low rank NS with potion buffs against a probably better buffed sorcerer ?
Just FYI as a mentalist you'd have 1486HP with potions buff. I just got PA by a RR11 SB for 1000 damage (Damage modifier around 1400 ) : 600 PA+310 crit + 57 left hand +23 crit left hand, mentalist fully temped full cap. That gives some perspective of what a high RR assassin can deal as damage and how fast they can kill a RR5 caster.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:49 PM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:40 PM
tbh, i kinda like that pa sucks (im talking about in a sin vs sin fight, since those are the ppl im wanting to fight and actively hunting. despite what everyone else thinks). it sucks to start a fight extremely behind because you ate a pa from another sin, especially when the EU sins can see NA sins MUCH EARLIER.
it just hurts when fighting tanks and blue con aboms. i think a PA should WRECK a blue con abom (esp considering they get to uninterupt LT the hp back, w/o disease doing anything at all)
when you pa a tank, he just leisurely turns around and slams you, then proceeds to fucking wreck you, esp if its a dual wielder ( i dont even pop on them unless they are sub r4 or i know they dont slam, and im 9l6 lol). the only real way to beat tough tanks is to just swap poisons like a crazy person to keep them dotted and fully debuffed at all times. if you can get s/c and str poison on him before he slams you, you might have a decent shot.
RPS

rps?

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:52 PM by Riac

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:46 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 8:07 PM
Just FYI

For comparison, here's a night from a few weeks ago of PAs on my NS with 44+13 CS pot buffed including a MASSIVE (o_O) 389 damage perf against a Sorc...

[21:57:23] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+439)
[21:57:23] You attack Reianx with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 389 (-136) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1249)
Sorcerer - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L2 - Inconnu Gryphon Knight

Why do you compare your HP with red druid buffs as a mentalist with the PA you did with a low rank NS with potion buffs against a probably better buffed sorcerer ?
Just FYI as a mentalist you'd have 1486HP with potions buff. I just got PA by a RR11 SB for 1000 damage (Damage modifier around 1400 ) : 600 PA+310 crit + 57 left hand +23 crit left hand, mentalist fully temped full cap. That gives some perspective of what a high RR assassin can deal as damage and how fast they can kill a RR5 caster.

what sb did this? i played almost all the way to rr9 as 44 cs and ive never seen a PA this monster on a temped char (where was your abs charge?). every now and then you get some 500s on some weak casters, but ive never gotten any 600s. might wanna SS something that amazing next time.
which sb was this?

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:53 PM by Lipsi

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:40 PM
when you pa a tank, he just leisurely turns around and slams you, then proceeds to fucking wreck you, esp if its a dual wielder ( i dont even pop on them unless they are sub r4 or i know they dont slam, and im 9l6 lol). the only real way to beat tough tanks is to just swap poisons like a crazy person to keep them dotted and fully debuffed at all times. if you can get s/c and str poison on him before he slams you, you might have a decent shot.

Why do you assume an assassin should stand a chance against a tank ? It's a bit like trying to solo a necromancer as a bard ^^ some classes are not supposed to be able to win over others.

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:52 PM
what sb did this? i played almost all the way to rr9 as 44 cs and ive never seen a PA this monster on a temped char (where was your abs charge?). every now and then you get some 500s on some weak casters, but ive never gotten any 600s. might wanna SS something that amazing next time.
which sb was this?

Mixalis.
I don't intend to run full time abs charge, what's the point to get a 150hp buffer that won't be a game changer and lock heart/chunk for 2 minutes every 10 minutes.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:59 PM by Riac

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:53 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:40 PM
when you pa a tank, he just leisurely turns around and slams you, then proceeds to fucking wreck you, esp if its a dual wielder ( i dont even pop on them unless they are sub r4 or i know they dont slam, and im 9l6 lol). the only real way to beat tough tanks is to just swap poisons like a crazy person to keep them dotted and fully debuffed at all times. if you can get s/c and str poison on him before he slams you, you might have a decent shot.

Why do you assume an assassin should stand a chance against a tank ? It's a bit like trying to solo a necromancer as a bard ^^ some classes are not supposed to be able to win over others.

well if youll notice the section where i talk about NOT popping on these sorts of ppl, that would indicate that i dont expect to beat them. gg reading.
however, i do feel like there is an argument to be made that im r9 and they are not, therefore i should have a bit higher chance at winning that fight than i otherwise would if we were equal rank or if the differential wasnt as severe as r9 vs r5or 6.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 11:13 PM by Riac

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:53 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:52 PM
what sb did this? i played almost all the way to rr9 as 44 cs and ive never seen a PA this monster on a temped char (where was your abs charge?). every now and then you get some 500s on some weak casters, but ive never gotten any 600s. might wanna SS something that amazing next time.
which sb was this?

Mixalis.
I don't intend to run full time abs charge, what's the point to get a 150hp buffer that won't be a game changer and lock heart/chunk for 2 minutes every 10 minutes.

i guess you can do w/e you want, but when ppl like tani comment on casters w/ 1700 hp, they are including that abs charge. thats an additional 150 on top of your 1486 hp, not to mention the legion heal that almost always shows up as well.

Thu 30 Jan 2020 12:51 AM by sylvynyr

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:46 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 8:07 PM
Just FYI

For comparison, here's a night from a few weeks ago of PAs on my NS with 44+13 CS pot buffed including a MASSIVE (o_O) 389 damage perf against a Sorc...

[21:57:23] You perform your Perforate Artery perfectly! (+439)
[21:57:23] You attack Reianx with your shimmering arcanite crescent sword and hit for 389 (-136) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1249)
Sorcerer - Level 50 - Realm Rank 4L2 - Inconnu Gryphon Knight

Why do you compare your HP with red druid buffs as a mentalist with the PA you did with a low rank NS with potion buffs against a probably better buffed sorcerer ?
Just FYI as a mentalist you'd have 1486HP with potions buff. I just got PA by a RR11 SB for 1000 damage (Damage modifier around 1400 ) : 600 PA+310 crit + 57 left hand +23 crit left hand, mentalist fully temped full cap. That gives some perspective of what a high RR assassin can deal as damage and how fast they can kill a RR5 caster.

Maybe because casters get groups with actual buffing classes and stealthers pretty much have to solo or group with other stealthers relying pretty much solely on pot buffs so its a realistic expectation of RvR a majority of the time?

Maybe its because my experience that PA, a single use per fight front positional melee range opener style that requires stealth, does on average less than arrows or spells? PA probably has the most restrictive requirements to execute in the entire game for any class and yet is barely on par with anytime repeatable ranged damage.

Also, crits are irrelevant, everyone crits and taking into account it caps at 50% in RvR... but let's take a moment to realize that a RR11 SB perfed for only 600.... that in itself is rather disheartening and probably contributes in no small fashion as to why there are so many stealther groups running around.

Thu 30 Jan 2020 10:06 AM by Cadebrennus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 5:11 PM
What, exactly, is the complaint? That an assassin might need to purge vs a caster? Do they really expect such brainless gameplay as 1-shot abilities? Vs caster, assassin always guaranteed win?

I'd rather see assassins get tools that allow them to fight in all types of RvR instead of the brainless ganking that 90% of stealth players choose.

Many Assassin players don't expect this or want this, but the loudest whiners in here, do want this. They want to be able to kill anything 100% of the time without much skill or planning involved. There are people like this on every server, regardless of what kind of PvP game it is. It was people like this that endlessly whined on Live and hastened the downfall of that server as well. I hope it doesn't happen here, but the whiners who want to win without any effort are also very loud on this server.

Thu 6 Feb 2020 12:44 AM by sylvynyr

Perfed a solo blue con abomination pet for 254 damage with a whopping damage mod of 801 out of 3000 with combined forces buffs.

The abomination had a damage mod of 1835.

Seems balanced.