A lesson to be learned from Uthgard

Started 22 Feb 2019
by Tree
in Suggestions
Looking over to the old grandpa of DAoC freeshards things are pretty grim. Its by all means a dead server right now.
Did it have to be? Well probably not. There was ample opportunity to change course and things might have turned out for the better.

Was it the slow XP, the lack of QoL, old RA or lack of content?

Nah I dont think so, those are all symptoms.

What really killed Uthgard was their lack of communication and interaction with their community and the resulting alienation from the players.

When they started and had 4k players trying to get onto their server the Devs probably had a natural high, god complex incoming. They thought whatever they did, people would love it. Critics were just stupid and if things evidently turned for the worse they were looking for increasingly stupid theories to explain away the problems of the server (e.g. more people will play in winter). And most of all they tried to control the discussion by belittleing players on the forums, closing threads or downright deleting commentaries they didnt like.
That is the worst recipe for desaster.

What has that to do with Phoenix? Well Phoenix is in a similar situation right now. The server flourishes, player numbers are amazing. And the progressive changes introduced to the server work very well and engage the players. There is a lot of praise to be had and that might get to ones head, just like on Uthgard.

During the last few weeks I noticed an increasing tendency of threads being closed and necessary discussions being stopped dead in their tracks. At the same time I feel like community feedback is not taken into account on important matters.

When the new relic raid system was introduced (basically over night) people had constructive criticsm. Now over a month after launch we know this criticism was well founded.
Now you introduced a new task system without consulting the community and in effect further funnel players into zerg RvR. The discussion was locked already.
There are more small examples of changes where you could have consulted the community to find a broader consensus on how Phoenix could flourish as a server.

The feedback of your community is valuable. Try to rely more on it. Try to find ways to include community feedback into a transparent decision making process. And allow room for discussion and even negative feedback on the forums.
Even though debates get heated and people sometimes hit a wrong tone of voice, they have good intentions. Everyone taking the time to voice feedback here obviously cares deeply enough about Phoenix. Dont take this as a "They dont appreciate our work", quite the contrary is true. Everyone does (probably even the annoying DDOS dude, why else would he put so much time into getting your attention? Poor lonely stalker).
Anyhow please think about it and maybe change the path of the last weeks just a little.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 12:18 AM by Isavyr
Tree wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:47 PM
Was it the slow XP, the lack of QoL, old RA or lack of content?

Nah I dont think so, those are all symptoms.

What really killed Uthgard was their lack of communication and interaction with their community and the resulting alienation from the players.

I disagree with your premise. Most of the players I know couldn't care what the level of communication was. Uthgard's vision sucked--they were inconsistent in philosophy, but primarily it took forever to reach 50, which played into any guild's viability at 50--if someone took a break from playing bard, nobody else had a bard to fill, so nobody RvR'd. Most players on Uthgard didn't even have two 50s (as shown by their own statistics) after 3 months--that's a significant problem.

That being said, more communication is always good, and if people want to discuss, what's the harm so long as they obey the rules?
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:44 AM by Anaethema
Tree wrote:
Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:47 PM
During the last few weeks I noticed an increasing tendency of threads being closed and necessary discussions being stopped dead in their tracks.

Speaking only for myself, I have locked a total of like 3 threads.. and that was because of the posts from the players getting out of control. Every time I have to edit cuss words, or personal attacks it takes about 5 minutes of my time to edit, post notes, open a PM, cut-n-paste from my notepad and then copy-n-paste a link to the thread. That is 5 minutes less I have to game.. each and every time I have to moderate something.

Now let's take the recent RvR task thread - one poster was taunting the developers so I had to delete 3-4 posts, send them a PM, make the notes and post a link in the moderators forum. (10-15 minutes)

Several other posters all started piling on the ball bandwagon taking the thread completely off topic and making nonsensical posts.

I could either 1) spend the rest of my evening cleaning up every single post - or - B) lock the thread, note my actions in the moderator forum and enjoy playing the rest of my night.

Tough decision there. I am a pretty laid back moderator and don't throw flags for marginal calls (shameless NFL plug) so if you all can be civil and keep the posts on topic, I promise to let the discussions follow their natural course. If, however 4+ posters take it upon themselves to act immature and derail the thread, I can GUARANTEE you I am going to save myself a lot of time and effort and just lock the thread.

I am purely reactive. If the posters keep things on topic and somewhat civil, I am willing to let them discuss things to their hearts content.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:06 AM by teiloh
Often, players give terrible feedback and the most pushy and whiny are the loudest.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:14 PM by cuuchulain79
I don't agree with the OP. It's too much of a simplified Pollyanna viewpoint.

As your point, "Even though debates get heated and people sometimes hit a wrong tone of voice, they have good intentions." I don't know how much time you've spent in the real world, but being an absolute jerk to people and then expecting they "please remember my hostility comes from a place of concern"...well that doesn't really work does it?

You skate over what breeds so much negativity, and then say it's up to the staff to "listen." Rubbish....
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:19 PM by Quik
Most threads are locked because of attacks or the fact it has already been addressed numerous times.

The dev's also constantly talk to players here and do take a lot of input to heart. I have had them add ideas I have mentioned into the game within days, and other times I have been told outright no.

Uth died because of the slow lvling and lousy staff.

And if you want to compare, Uth last half its population in like a month while Pheonix has grown over the last almost 2 months.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:37 PM by relvinian
The OP does make a good point about communication and, yes, in fact, Uthgard did die because they ignored their players input and told them if you do not like it go pound sand. That is not what I'm seeing here on this server from the devs.

I can have fun on the new task system, and you can to. You only need to do that stuff you like.

The main thing which is missing for me is incentives to take or defend keeps. The other thing which seems to be missing to me is a little bit of the old time DAOC story.

I would like these changes to be a little more explainable. For example, dominate is sort of explainable, but the football left me cold.

BTW, dominate can mean just that, if you can control even one flag you can get some pretty decent rps from that.

Another thing to learn from uthgard, and the op got that right too, is that some of the ones making the most suggestions, some of the quote whiners, those are probably some of the ones who really care about the server and want it to succeed.

Personally i just want to play daoc and be able to play my idea of a fun game. I think the best possible server is the server which is the most inclusive server, which allows various players to play their idea of the best daoc game. So you need to include viability for solo, small man, pug, 8 man, visible, invisible, l337, casual, and even newbs.

Not all will succeed, whatever that means, but all should at least not have more work than fun and have more fun than annoyance.

That was not the case with uthgard and people just got fed up.

1. Communication good.
2. Tell better stories.
3. There is wisdom in the masses, if one issue becomes repeated over and over by lots of players, you may not need to change it but you should listen to them, and maybe tweak things or explain yourselves as devs.
4. Devs are kind of like parents or bosses, there is the mistaken idea that they are perfect rather than ordinary flawed human beings, and that can lead to resentment. They are trying. I'm impressed by the server and their work.

I bet that was TLDR and just my opinion.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:55 PM by defiasbandit
relvinian wrote:
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:37 PM
The OP does make a good point about communication and, yes, in fact, Uthgard did die because they ignored their players input and told them if you do not like it go pound sand. That is not what I'm seeing here on this server from the devs.

I can have fun on the new task system, and you can to. You only need to do that stuff you like.

The main thing which is missing for me is incentives to take or defend keeps. The other thing which seems to be missing to me is a little bit of the old time DAOC story.

I would like these changes to be a little more explainable. For example, dominate is sort of explainable, but the football left me cold.

BTW, dominate can mean just that, if you can control even one flag you can get some pretty decent rps from that.

Another thing to learn from uthgard, and the op got that right too, is that some of the ones making the most suggestions, some of the quote whiners, those are probably some of the ones who really care about the server and want it to succeed.

Personally i just want to play daoc and be able to play my idea of a fun game. I think the best possible server is the server which is the most inclusive server, which allows various players to play their idea of the best daoc game. So you need to include viability for solo, small man, pug, 8 man, visible, invisible, l337, casual, and even newbs.

Not all will succeed, whatever that means, but all should at least not have more work than fun and have more fun than annoyance.

That was not the case with uthgard and people just got fed up.

1. Communication good.
2. Tell better stories.
3. There is wisdom in the masses, if one issue becomes repeated over and over by lots of players, you may not need to change it but you should listen to them, and maybe tweak things or explain yourselves as devs.
4. Devs are kind of like parents or bosses, there is the mistaken idea that they are perfect rather than ordinary flawed human beings, and that can lead to resentment. They are trying. I'm impressed by the server and their work.

I bet that was TLDR and just my opinion.

The new realm task system is about telling better stories. It is just a work in progress.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:57 PM by cuuchulain79
Quik wrote:
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
Uth last half its population in like a month while Pheonix has grown over the last almost 2 months.

https://unixgeek.com/uthgard.html

No need to make up numbers. Unless 'like a month' is half a year.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:27 PM by Quik
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:57 PM
Quik wrote:
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
Uth last half its population in like a month while Pheonix has grown over the last almost 2 months.

https://unixgeek.com/uthgard.html

No need to make up numbers. Unless 'like a month' is half a year.

LOL even your graph shows Uth losing 1k players within a month and another 500 a month later...

Pheonix GREW 1k players within a month...

Go ahead and try to prove your point again though...
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:19 PM by cuuchulain79
My point (that your first statement is wrong, and that there is a website to reference) is made already.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled Uthgard bashing, but now with more accuracy.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:42 PM by Quik
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:19 PM
My point (that your first statement is wrong, and that there is a website to reference) is made already.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled Uthgard bashing, but now with more accuracy.

I have rarely ever bashed Uthgard. I have bashed the Dev's but only 1 in particular who really went out of his way to irritate people.

And my point was simply that Uthgard LOST population while this server is GAINING population...I am more than happy to admit I exaggerated just because playing Uthgard it felt like the population loss was a lot more abrupt.

Regardless 1500 people gone in 2 months is an insane loss
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