Style Procs will be affected by Base Weapon Speed

As a result from the class based discussions following the style changes we're going to make the base weapon speed affect the style proc damage.

Rational:
Certain style procs are seen as dealing too much damage, primarily when combined with fast weapons. Even today the base weapon speed affects pretty much all melee proc rates except style procs which have a 100% proc rate and hence are not affected.

Implementation:
This will include an adjustment of the current delves, the end result should be that the current style proc values are achieved at a certain speed that we still have to determine. Weapons that are faster than that speed will deal less damage than today and slower weapons will deal more.
To keep with the other weapon speed related effects on proc rates, we'll use a weapon speed of 3.5 as the baseline.

Please note that 3.5 will not (necessarily) be the speed to get the damage numbers you see today. In cases where we want a slower speed to achieve the current numbers the delve will be reduced accordingly. E. g. if we choose 5.0 as the speed at which we want the vw to deal the same proc damage as he does today, the delve would become: 198 / 5.0 * 3.5 = 138.6.

Other:
Not entirely related to this change but since we're going to mess with the style proc delves anyways: friar style proc scaling will use dex instead of strength, however, the delve will be adjusted downwards accordingly.

Alternative:
Given that most styles will see a nominal delve reduction we might do a test with the old weapon speed ignoring mechanic and new delves.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:39 PM by Noashakra

What about the thane parry proc, it's already huge damage with a slow 2H, will it get boosted as well or will it see a small nerf?
Otherwise, I am not against the idea, it's a nerf in the range of 25/30% for the fast scythe of a VW.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:06 PM by skipari

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 8:39 PM
What about the thane parry proc, it's already huge damage with a slow 2H, will it get boosted as well or will it see a small nerf?
Otherwise, I am not against the idea, it's a nerf in the range of 25/30% for the fast scythe of a VW.

Like the thane probably switching from s/b to 2h in this chain, also VWs can switch from fast to slow for the proc style itself. That said, i hope those "dual use" proc values get beforehand adjusted to for a slow weapon basically.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:23 PM by Noashakra

Thane don't usually switch to 1h because it's not an anytime and they are just queuing the reactive on parry to their positional or anytimer.
And it's already super OP as it is with a 5.7 (dragon dot hammer).
We don't need the proc to make even more damage as it does with a 5.7 atm, actually it needs a nerf.

Tue 6 Jul 2021 10:24 PM by Forlornhope

This include levi? I'd suggest not including Levi in this change since it hasn't actually changed from how it was before the style changes.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 3:12 AM by Lawdawg

This should be done on an individual class basis and not blanket. If VW is the problem, address the blizz blade damage. A blanket would mess up levi, and the current thane procs, which finally make thane dps somewhat viable.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:02 PM by inoeth

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:23 PM
Thane don't usually switch to 1h because it's not an anytime and they are just queuing the reactive on parry to their positional or anytimer.
And it's already super OP as it is with a 5.7 (dragon dot hammer).
We don't need the proc to make even more damage as it does with a 5.7 atm, actually it needs a nerf.

dragonstorm is 5.8

Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:30 PM by labra

I'd like to make another suggestion to the style proc scaling system.
This suggestion is an incentive to get 50 in weaponline and can help you manage with friar proc damage (and maybe thane, I don't play this class that much).

My suggestion is to adjust base proc value according to how much points are invested in weaponlike.
I'll take into consideration only base weapon points, no comp so for instance 50 staff isn't 39+11 staff (base+from gear).

Base proc damage is 100% when you have 50 into the weaponline where the proc is.
Every point under 50 reduce the damage per 2%.

I'll take friar as example and level 29 style, with a 175 dd proc.
50 staff: 175 damage
39 staff: 136.5 damage
29 staff: 101.5 damage

This way hybrid friar do less damage than a melee one, wich is more accurate since no the same points invested

Wed 7 Jul 2021 3:51 PM by

gruenesschaf

labra wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Jul 2021 2:30 PM
I'd like to make another suggestion to the style proc scaling system.
This suggestion is an incentive to get 50 in weaponline and can help you manage with friar proc damage (and maybe thane, I don't play this class that much).

My suggestion is to adjust base proc value according to how much points are invested in weaponlike.
I'll take into consideration only base weapon points, no comp so for instance 50 staff isn't 39+11 staff (base+from gear).

Base proc damage is 100% when you have 50 into the weaponline where the proc is.
Every point under 50 reduce the damage per 2%.

I'll take friar as example and level 29 style, with a 175 dd proc.
50 staff: 175 damage
39 staff: 136.5 damage
29 staff: 101.5 damage

This way hybrid friar do less damage than a melee one, wich is more accurate since no the same points invested

While that would work for blizzard blade and friar, it doesn't apply to many of the style procs that are part of the 44+ styles. At the same time, the currently observed values, which are in most cases done by 50 weapon people, are considered too high too.

Wed 7 Jul 2021 3:58 PM by labra

I agree, some procs need to be lowered still, but I believe it could be some kind of "reward" to go full 50 in a weaponline

Wed 7 Jul 2021 4:54 PM by Centenario

I think it should also be implemented Spell damage according to cast speed, thanks!

Wed 7 Jul 2021 5:36 PM by Magesty

So now, instead of just abusing side styles with 3.0 speed weapons being made mandatory for a bunch of classes, we can add weapon swapping for the proc hits to the mix. Not that most people weren't already doing that for final proc style in a stun anyways.

Perhaps, and please don't think I'm crazy, the problem is with DD procs themselves? It's almost like their consistently problematic state is a result of them spawning from the Mythic/EA/Shitsword primordial soup of lazy design:

"Hey, we need to buff these melee classes, and we have nearly infinite design space to come up with creative ways to add class flavor and interesting mechanics. Good thing there is so much class variety in DAoC, it's one of the things that our player base really loves and that separates us from other MMORPGs. I read something on the VN boards about Reavers getting a DoT proc that also steals life. Seems thematically appropriate, and it wouldn't be too hard to balance appropriately if we kept the values proportional to already existing procs."

"True, but If we just do DD procs we can reuse already existing values and that requires no effort. They seem to be... working... and it means we don't have to think about it. As for animations and sound effects, just pick whatever-- No one even notices those things."

"You had me at 'no effort'. DD procs it is! Well, after our daily drive down the street to the 7/11 for some 44 oz. Slurpees and roller dogs."

Why not change some of the DD procs to be mechanics that don't reward spamming in the same way, like DoTs or stat/abs/af debuffs? I assume the Phx dev team has the ability to implement countless design options that aren't DD procs. It wouldn't be very difficult to approximate power values for a given proc if the goal is to keep "balance" the same way it is now.

In addition, Reavers need to have the new Leviathan graphic and sound effect implemented, and the Friar procs should probably not look like life/powertaps when the core theme of the class is "holy warrior".

Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:11 PM by Bradekes

Is there any way to tie the dmg of followup DD style proc to the weapon speed of the previous swing instead of the current weapon speed? That would eliminate swapping for higher dd dmg.

Example 3.0 speed weapon used for grasping roots, then 3.0 speed dd on conflagration followup even if weapon swapped before conflagration hit so weapon dmg would spike but not dd dmg.

Thu 8 Jul 2021 4:42 AM by Nephamael

Why not change some of the DD procs to be mechanics that don't reward spamming in the same way, like DoTs or stat/abs/af debuffs? I assume the Phx dev team has the ability to implement countless design options that aren't DD procs. It wouldn't be very difficult to approximate power values for a given proc if the goal is to keep "balance" the same way it is now.

While i agree with a creative approach i fear for the "classic" feel.
I think a weapon speed based balancing of DD procs can keep VW and Reaver as classic as possible but in a more balanced way.

I think especially the new styles (VW frontal chain/reaver anytime procstyle) could have more creative effects tho.