[Q2 2020] Minstrel / Pet Charm

This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

The exact details are still up in the air on this one and it's likely that this will see a couple tests. The goal is to remove the macro requirement, thereby lowering the bar to entry, and also to lower the ceiling as well.

The only thing so far that is definitely happening is that charm will be able to run concurrently with all other pulse spells. This will remove the need for macros.

As for the other part of the change, we're still discussing it and are not entirely sure yet on how exactly to best achieve the goal. Possible options include making charm have a cast time and be uninterruptible, adding a cooldown and similar things.
In general, our goal here for lowering the ceiling would be that high level pets should have some downside (or be straight up impossible) and that there should also be some counter to the CC removal, not an easy counter but some actual counter with coordination.

EDIT: Exact changes below

1) Charm pulses can now run concurrently with other pulse spells, in practice this means minstrels can run speed or ablative or flute mezz while having an active pet without having to spam charm in-between
2) Minstrel charm spells will receive a 6 second cooldown
3) Manually releasing a pulse charmed pet (e. g. via the Release button on the pet window) will now also cancel the charm pulse. This also applies to mentalists.

While working on 3, the way pulse charmed pet releasing works, a bug was found that could sometimes lead to inconsistent behavior of the pet afterwards. Technically the pet release for pulse charmed pets is now only done via expiring the charm effect and no longer via expiring the charm effect as well as also explicitly releasing it, due to some timing issues the latter could sometimes lead to unexpected behavior.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:03 PM by Tubby

wow. :/ the bard and minstrel changes are gonna get some backlash lol

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:04 PM by joy

Have it co-exist like sorc charm?

Have the mechanics work like menta charm?
(This also lowers the max pet level, doesn't entirely remove the cc breaks, but there should not be a situation where menta is better then minst in this regard.)

There is already a counter to the CC removal, it just needs co-ordination to pull of,
but if the minst got purge up, the counter is nullified.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:11 PM by Arkiluth

Against the idea of CC breaks for minstrel and mentalists. I am for the idea of not charming purple or maybe red pets.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:15 PM by Nefcait

it is easily possible to play minstrel without macros wtf

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:16 PM by Isavyr

joy wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:04 PM
There is already a counter to the CC removal, it just needs co-ordination to pull of,
but if the minst got purge up, the counter is nullified.

Exactly. It requires a high amount of coordination for an effect that's easily countered by 1-button. There's no upside to this bad system.

Pets simply shouldn't lose CC when they're released, minstrel or otherwise. They ought to be CCable, and groupmates work with you in breaking the effect (drop pet, groupmate must attack, OR groupmate must cast demezz). The mechanics of these released pets is good otherwise. It introduces a desirable element to both minstrels and mentalists being able to break their own and groupmates mezzes and roots.

I also favor the idea of the minstrel charm being like mentalists (largely fire and forget). This will greatly increase the classes playability both from a competitive and enjoyment perspective. I like them both having access to unique, high level pets, too.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:21 PM by Arkiluth

I agree. Mentalist and Minstrels should not lose their ability to break CC. Fire and forget seems like a nice approach, and limiting high high of a mob they can charm would be useful.

I fear devs may be breaking a very important class that has been out since the launch of DAOC if minstrels lose their ability to break charm.

Do minstrels need a nerf? Sure. Nerf how high of a pet they can get. Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also dont need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority, while nerfing those who are exceptionally skilled.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:25 PM by Razur Ur

after release the pet breaking the cc is not the problem if the mob get a charm immunity after release from minstrel/menta. I think this is the
best solution after charm release the pet to give a immunity cham for 10 second.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:27 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:21 PM
I agree. Mentalist and Minstrels should not lose their ability to break CC. Fire and forget seems like a nice approach, and limiting high high of a mob they can charm would be useful.

I fear devs may be breaking a very important class that has been out since the launch of DAOC if minstrels lose their ability to break charm.

Do minstrels need a nerf? Sure. Nerf how high of a pet they can get. Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also dont need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority, while nerfing those who are exceptionally skilled.

Which do you mean? There are two break-CC mechanics in place, and they are separate.

1) Release pet--loses all CC automatically (requires no ability, timing, etc. No downside)
2) Release pet--attack owner and break owner's CC. Has a downside (must be close to you, will hurt you)

I'm all for #2. But I think #1 needs to be overhauled. Could introduce cast timer, charm immunity, or simply eliminate it losing CC on itself automatically.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:30 PM by bubbablue75

Having the freedom to alt tab or walk away from the computer as a Minstrel is a really nice idea but DO NOT touch the pet mechanics. It already does not function as it does on live, on live you can charm even if you are stunned or mezzed and here you cannot. If Minstrel's cannot release their pet to cleanse cc from themselves or have some other wonky mechanic you may as well buff sorc speed instead as the 2nd best alb class just became Reaver tier.

Red pets are an essential part of the minstrel class, the others die way too easy and there's no way to fully buff it since you nerfed charges. Purple pets are dumb, no debate needed there.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:31 PM by Crix

I thought counter to cc removal was ccing pet when it was released...…….

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:36 PM by Caemma

Uhm, wait... what?
Instead of balance it you guys trying to make it "easier" to charm/maintain pets?
I'm curious about which feedback brought you into this decision(s)...

Pets should clear the aggro list everytime they get released and just run to the "charmer" with the minimun aggro.
That would allow decent CCers to actually counter the CC break meachanic that basically gives free & infinite purges to everyone with one charmed pet.

Also, another possibility would be that releasing a charmed pet would also remove the immunities to CCs other than the only current active CCs.
Give it a try, imho.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:40 PM by Nauglamir

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:36 PM
Pets should clear the aggro list everytime they get released and just run to the "charmer" with the minimun aggro.
That would allow decent CCers to actually counter the CC break meachanic that basically gives free & infinite purges to everyone with one charmed pet.

That's exactly what happens.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:50 PM by Caemma

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:40 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:36 PM
Pets should clear the aggro list everytime they get released and just run to the "charmer" with the minimun aggro.
That would allow decent CCers to actually counter the CC break meachanic that basically gives free & infinite purges to everyone with one charmed pet.

That's exactly what *SHOULD* happens.

Fixed it for you :=)

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:54 PM by Nauglamir

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:50 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:40 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:36 PM
Pets should clear the aggro list everytime they get released and just run to the "charmer" with the minimun aggro.
That would allow decent CCers to actually counter the CC break meachanic that basically gives free & infinite purges to everyone with one charmed pet.

That's exactly what *SHOULD* happens.
Fixed it for you :=)

Ah, now I get you - sorry.
Would be quite a nerf for Hibernia and Albion

Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:59 PM by Caemma

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:54 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:50 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:40 PM
That's exactly what *SHOULD* happens.
Fixed it for you :=)

Ah, now I get you - sorry.
Would be quite a nerf for Hibernia and Albion

A "nerf" to what it is now on Phoenix? Yes.
(I've also doubts about how it is now (aka: not clearing the aggro/immunities) - would love to see an old video that shows this mechanics if anyone has!)

But it would not change the gameplay in the most part, but rather add a small window accessible to good CCers to counter this "silly" mechanic by using their "skill" instead of a plain nerf.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:02 PM by Loki

Funny how the whole "macros with delays are not allowed" became "we're gonna make it so that you don't need one"

Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:09 PM by Nauglamir

Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 5:02 PM
Funny how the whole "macros with delays are not allowed" became "we're gonna make it so that you don't need one"

Don't get why they are allowed at all.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:27 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 4:27 PM
Which do you mean? There are two break-CC mechanics in place, and they are separate.

1) Release pet--loses all CC automatically (requires no ability, timing, etc. No downside)
2) Release pet--attack owner and break owner's CC. Has a downside (must be close to you, will hurt you)

I'm all for #2. But I think #1 needs to be overhauled. Could introduce cast timer, charm immunity, or simply eliminate it losing CC on itself automatically.

#2

Against CC immunity because then essentially your enemy has a pet, which would be broken.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:32 PM by Arkiluth

My understanding of these changes are as follows:

1. Currently, the minstrel class is one of the few classes in DAOC that require lots of button smashing and micromanagement to be effective. In the hands of a GOOD minstrel player who knows how to micro manage and multitask well, the minstrel is VERY much powerful.

2. Currently, players who (trying to be respectful here) not as skilled, do not see high success stories when fighting enemies of similar or higher skill rating.

So, devs are trying to make the minstrel class EASIER to play for the mainstream, in exchange of having the minstrel class be VERY powerful for a select few (I can think of about 4 Minstrels on this server that fits that category).

I do believe the Minstrel class needs some tweaking, but its more towards purple or red pets. I don't believe immunity timers for released pets is a good idea (it will kill the class, essentially giving your enemy a pet to assist them when they are NOT a pet class). Nerf how high a mob minstrels can use as opposed to breaking their basic mechanics.

P.S - I don't believe making The Minstrel class easier to play a good solution. It's a class that takes skill. Its a class that shows why some RR4 Minstrels can take out RR8''s 1v1, and why some RR8 Minstrel's lose 1v1's vs RR4's. The Minstrel Class is NOT a mindless character. Can we keep it that way? Does DAOC really need more mindless classes?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:39 PM by Prometheus

Whatever change you make I would like to see the same mechanic applied to all realms.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:44 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 6:32 PM
I don't believe making The Minstrel class easier to play a good solution. It's a class that takes skill. Its a class that shows why some RR4 Minstrels can take out RR8''s 1v1, and why some RR8 Minstrel's lose 1v1's vs RR4's. The Minstrel Class is NOT a mindless character. Can we keep it that way?

The difficulty in playing a minstrel is much beyond just the twisting, which any minstrel player knows becomes assigned to muscle memory, even if it's a small mental load. The awareness, the breaking of CC of their groupmates, push and pulling of pet, the quick switching between instruments and weapon--these things exist regardless of whether the charm is easy to maintain. There is still a huge skill ceiling that will exist regardless because the mechanics are inherently sluggish--we don't need to be concerned.

I think I agree with you regarding charm immunity. I think the easiest, and most balanced approach, is simply ridding the pet of its ability to drop all CC upon release.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:13 PM by bigne88

Why all of this?
Cant even fix shrooms hitting behind the walls...
Pet breaking CC is already counterable.

Pet damage already nerfed. what else?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM by Lucifeur

Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:59 PM by Dimley

This is going to go down the wrong path with the nurfing. And going to make alot of ppl stop playing on a game that is already hard to get players. If it's what your trying to do then I'll start looking for a different game. That's how things started going down hill fast for live. And the expansions added to it.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM by Caemma

Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:17 PM by Loki

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.

Oh, I see you still have some faith in this community

Trying to get a minstrel to correctly asses the class is an illusion I have chased for months . Some of them will claim every class except solo casters can, when played correctly, kill a minstrel. All while it became a habit of running 2 minstrels per group since they are both support and a damage dealer that , with a red pet, can rival any melee out there.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:20 PM by Isavyr

Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

This is a dramatic reply. Please lay out the "counter" for me. Stun the minstrel, wait for pet charm to lapse, then mezz pet, and mezz minstrel? Surely you're joking if you think this one counter, which requires perfect timing along with several casts typically across multiple chars, which can easily be countered by a purge, is reasonable. It's not repeatable and burns through multiple immunities. Gamebreaking is the word that comes to mind.

I think most minstrels are just too used to this handicap. Still a solid class without dropping pet CC on command.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:24 PM by Mezzosaurus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:55 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

The exact details are still up in the air on this one and it's likely that this will see a couple tests. The goal is to remove the macro requirement, thereby lowering the bar to entry, and also to lower the ceiling as well.

The only thing so far that is definitely happening is that charm will be able to run concurrently with all other pulse spells. This will remove the need for macros.

As for the other part of the change, we're still discussing it and are not entirely sure yet on how exactly to best achieve the goal. Possible options include making charm have a cast time and be uninterruptible, adding a cooldown and similar things.
In general, our goal here for lowering the ceiling would be that high level pets should have some downside (or be straight up impossible) and that there should also be some counter to the CC removal, not an easy counter but some actual counter with coordination.

Well I guess its obvious devs all play Alb...This combined with the bard changes are ludicrous.

How about making OJ pets the maximum charm-able in conjunction with this??? That way pets can actually get cleared.
How about when pet gets released its CC timer doesnt reset??

Use your brains guys...

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:35 PM by Arkiluth

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

I cant tell if you are being serious here or are just trolling, because you're trying to squeeze any little thing to make minstrels look better than they really are. Anyone can put lists of abilities of any class together. Is this how you articulate your argument?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM by Arkiluth

Mezzosaurus wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:24 PM
How about making OJ pets the maximum charm-able in conjunction with this??? That way pets can actually get cleared.
How about when pet gets released its CC timer doesnt reset??

Use your brains guys...

I agree with orange pets. Disagree with CC timer. Minstrels and pets work with each other. It's part of the class. It's hard coded in the game to release CC other than stun.

Why not keep it simple. When minstrel purges, so does pet?

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:39 PM by Nauglamir

Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:17 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.

Oh, I see you still have some faith in this community Trying to get a minstrel to correctly asses the class is an illusion I have chased for months . Some of them will claim every class except solo casters can, when played correctly, kill a minstrel. All while it became a habit of running 2 minstrels per group since they are both support and a damage dealer that , with a red pet, can rival any melee out there.

Finally, the day where you can beat up even the last minstrel without breaking a sweat is very close - you must be in a celebration mood ^^

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:41 PM by Arkiluth

Two things:

1) Limit how high lvl a minstrel can charm a pet. No purples. No reds?
2) Keep pet CC release as is, just lower pet damage by charming up to orange.

...

Unless you can make it so that when a minstrel purges, the effect ALSO applies to the pet.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:43 PM by Mezzosaurus

Mezzosaurus wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:24 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:55 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

The exact details are still up in the air on this one and it's likely that this will see a couple tests. The goal is to remove the macro requirement, thereby lowering the bar to entry, and also to lower the ceiling as well.

The only thing so far that is definitely happening is that charm will be able to run concurrently with all other pulse spells. This will remove the need for macros.

As for the other part of the change, we're still discussing it and are not entirely sure yet on how exactly to best achieve the goal. Possible options include making charm have a cast time and be uninterruptible, adding a cooldown and similar things.
In general, our goal here for lowering the ceiling would be that high level pets should have some downside (or be straight up impossible) and that there should also be some counter to the CC removal, not an easy counter but some actual counter with coordination.

Well I guess its obvious devs all play Alb...This combined with the bard changes are ludicrous.

How about making OJ pets the maximum charm-able in conjunction with this??? That way pets can actually get cleared.
How about when pet gets released its CC timer doesnt reset??

Use your brains guys...

I forgot about Mastery of Stealth....uhhh....which patch did mini have that? yea

Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:47 PM by Caemma

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:35 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

I cant tell if you are being serious here or are just trolling, because you're trying to squeeze any little thing to make minstrels look better than they really are. Anyone can put lists of abilities of any class together. Is this how you articulate your argument?

I quoted a post, therefore my post (thus my arguments) was related to it..
I've listed what a decent minstrel can do (and sorry: I forgot he can also unmez/unroot friendly targets while being Mezzed, Stunned hehe..) cause I've read that it would become just a speedbot - clearly it isn't otherwise it wouldn't create such fuss, right?

Acknowledging a problem is the first step for a solution, imho.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:04 PM by Lucifeur

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

I'm speaking strictly regarding an 8v8 scenario, any group worth their salt will immediately shut down a minstrel with no remedy if these changes occur. You clearly are drinking if you think this is a credible argument to my previous point. By the way, keep up the window dragging on your bard, it works great.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:07 PM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:35 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

I cant tell if you are being serious here or are just trolling, because you're trying to squeeze any little thing to make minstrels look better than they really are. Anyone can put lists of abilities of any class together. Is this how you articulate your argument?

I'm assuming you're talking to the first guy, and not the second ? The guy saying skalds have "DET and dps" ?

The second guy is just mimicking his arguments. I mean, the dude said minstrels will be left with only speed after this, all this over simplification should bother you , if you're gonna try and have a fair conversation.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:08 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM
Why not keep it simple. When minstrel purges, so does pet?

No. That would be imbalanced for them to be the only pet class to have this functionality and anyway it's unnecessary.

The simplest change is pets in CC stay in CC, charmed or not. It's the simplest because the pets will follow the game mechanics that every other entity in the game follows. And better yet, the minstrel still largely maintains a lot of its effectiveness, it just requires some sacrifice by the minstrel or her teammates in order to get that effectiveness--teammates can break the uncharmed pet's mezz either via demezz or damaging the uncharmed pet (costs time, power, and maybe hurts the pet by DDing it). Even the minstrel could break their own pet out of CC by uncharming -> DDing, but that costs something, as it ought to.

I think this simple change goes far enough, but if it didn't, the developers could go one step further and not allow mezzed/stunned pets to be uncharmed because their mental state is preoccupied with another state.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:49 PM by daytonchambers

The mincer pet spell needs a cost beyond spell resist. Either the endo cost per cast needs to be brought back and/or add a power cost per cast.
A cooldown on it, which is very common on pretty much every other chant in the game, would be a reasonable adjustment as well.

The Mentalist spell which is identical in almost every way eats up to 7pp every 10s there's no reason why the mincer spell has zero of these costs nor does it have a cooldown.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:59 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:08 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:38 PM
Why not keep it simple. When minstrel purges, so does pet?

No. That would be imbalanced for them to be the only pet class to have this functionality and anyway it's unnecessary.

The simplest change is pets in CC stay in CC, charmed or not. It's the simplest because the pets will follow the game mechanics that every other entity in the game follows. And better yet, the minstrel still largely maintains a lot of its effectiveness, it just requires some sacrifice by the minstrel or her teammates in order to get that effectiveness--teammates can break the uncharmed pet's mezz either via demezz or damaging the uncharmed pet (costs time, power, and maybe hurts the pet by DDing it). Even the minstrel could break their own pet out of CC by uncharming -> DDing, but that costs something, as it ought to.

I think this simple change goes far enough, but if it didn't, the developers could go one step further and not allow mezzed/stunned pets to be uncharmed because their mental state is preoccupied with another state.

I disagree. A pet class should be able to counter pet CC. Otherwise, what's the point of being a pet class?

My argument, NOT JUST FOR MINSTRELS, is that any pet class should be able to use purge to break CC from their pets. All the while implementing the same CC mechanics as any other player in the game.

Pets are part of the player and are not PVE entities.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 10:00 PM by Arkiluth

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:49 PM
The mincer pet spell needs a cost beyond spell resist. Either the endo cost per cast needs to be brought back and/or add a power cost per cast.
A cooldown on it, which is very common on pretty much every other chant in the game, would be a reasonable adjustment as well.

The Mentalist spell which is identical in almost every way eats up to 7pp every 10s there's no reason why the mincer spell has zero of these costs nor does it have a cooldown.

The cost is deviating attention from the enemy, recharming, and getting smacked.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 10:01 PM by joshisanonymous

Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:04 PM
I'm speaking strictly regarding an 8v8 scenario, any group worth their salt will immediately shut down a minstrel with no remedy if these changes occur. You clearly are drinking if you think this is a credible argument to my previous point. By the way, keep up the window dragging on your bard, it works great.

This is a nonsense reaction. So every other class in 8v8 is a det tank other than minstrels? I mean, I don't 8v8, but I thought there was a bit more variety in Alb groups other than minstrel+tank+tank+tank+tank+tank+tank+tank.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 10:18 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:59 PM
I disagree. A pet class should be able to counter pet CC. Otherwise, what's the point of being a pet class?

My argument, NOT JUST FOR MINSTRELS, is that any pet class should be able to use purge to break CC from their pets. All the while implementing the same CC mechanics as any other player in the game.

Pets are part of the player and are not PVE entities.

Appreciate the discussion Arkiluth, even if we disagree.

Changing the pets such that they benefitted from purge would be a major gameplay shift for DAOC. Pets are just an ability, one that can be nullified, CCd, or killed. I don't think changing all pets to have purge is the right answer as it's too broad. It could possibly work for Minstrels if Minstrel were prevented from releasing the pet, but that would be yet another major shift to how Minstrel is played.

Wed 25 Mar 2020 11:05 PM by Alle

Don’t change mentalists because minstrels are overpowered.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 12:39 AM by whoelse

it is already much too easy for minstrels to charm high level pets on this server.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 1:52 AM by gotwqqd

I think skalds and Bard’s should get some mechanic to eliminate macros
Pal lies as well
Not sure how many concurrent abilities running

Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 AM by Ombrix

You don’t even need to do a big change to « balance » the minstrel.

It’s all about charme resist rate chance on pet.
I’m playing it, it’s so easy to hold a red/purple pet when you got some RRs at lv50, so i don’t even need to care about my pet but got all the benefit of a high level one.

I’m playing minstrel at Thidranki aswell ( Lankhz) and what make it even more difficult to play ? The resist rate again. A red pet is approx 60% resist chance, i can’t do whatever i wan’t cause i have to hold my charm key 40% of the fight. And when i release it to break a CC on me or my pet, i need to target my pet and hold the charm for like more than 5sec to get it back cause of the 60% resist chance ( 60% resist chance can be sometimes 4 or 5 resistes before you got your pet charmed again.

Just adjust resist rate chance in purpose of mob level ( orange/red/purple) and you got a minstrel balanced and only a good one will be abble to play with a red or purple pet.

Exemple:
- Orange = 60%
- Red = 70%
- Purple = 80%

Red/purple pet with 70-80% resist chance for the charm will force the minstrel to hold the charm key more than 50% of the fight to don’t lose it, so he will not be abble to do whatever he wan’t.

- low level mob = easier to target ennemies rupt / break cc / not much damage-hps from pet.
- higher level mob = very hard to target a ennemy/ally cause you have to target your pet all the time to charm it, so, less rupt, but more damage/hps from pet, and way more harder to cc break cause you already lost your pet often, and got lot of trubble to take it back.

That’s it 🤷🏽‍♂️ It will be way more harder, but that what a minstrel player is looking for.

Thank you for reading

( and sorry for my English level )

Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:20 AM by Caemma

Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:04 PM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 7:28 PM
Nerf pet damage, nerf pet charm... Why not just get rid of the pet entirely? It's going to be a useless class if it keeps getting knocked down, albs soon would all be running on sorc speed. It will be the easiest thing to counter in 8v8 if they can't deal with their own CC at all aside from a measly purge without DET. Skalds have DET and dps, bards have CC/Heals/Buffs/mez, minstrels will have... speed?

Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;

Yeah, definitely has only speed - for sure.

Please try to be more objective when expressing an opinion.
I'm sure not everyone can play it at an high level as someone already correctly stated, but saying that it keeps "getting knocked down" is quite silly.

Regards

I'm speaking strictly regarding an 8v8 scenario, any group worth their salt will immediately shut down a minstrel with no remedy if these changes occur. You clearly are drinking if you think this is a credible argument to my previous point. By the way, keep up the window dragging on your bard, it works great.

Rofl, moving apart from your personal accusations (just stop the QQ)...

My arguments were pretty solid, minstrels with the fixed aggro list on release (or the removal of immunities) would STILL be able to rupt 2-3 targets efficently, which is what they're made and good for.
There is nothing wrong to make available a working counter to their "infinite purges", I understand that you'll will miss/cry about it but as far as it requires skill to do so (aka timing the CCs on the pet/minstrel upon release), I don't see a problem with it.
Also being mezzed or rooted for some times is quite normal for all non-det classes (there are cures, purges, etc), I don't see why that would make minstrels simple speedbots.. rofl, r u kiddin?
And you would still be able to unmezz yourself, unroot yourself, unmezz your friends, unroot your friends, free the pet from ANY CCs, and guess what... you can also get a demez from a sorc!

So what the hell would make it a speedbot? Bah.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:31 AM by daytonchambers

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 9:59 PM
I disagree. A pet class should be able to counter pet CC. Otherwise, what's the point of being a pet class?

My argument, NOT JUST FOR MINSTRELS, is that any pet class should be able to use purge to break CC from their pets. All the while implementing the same CC mechanics as any other player in the game.

Pets are part of the player and are not PVE entities.

Minstrels already have more cc clearing tools (demez) than most full-blown pet caster classes have. The pet cc break on release is just icing on an already calorie-packed cake.

Someone aoe mezzes mincer and pet. Minstrel purges, stuns and flute mezzes the attacker. Then minstrel de-mezzes pet and sends on attacker.

This is how pretty much every other pet caster fight goes down, at least for the ones that actually have a tool for de-mezzing their pet. Why would forcing the Minstrel (and mentalist) to do the same thing be so game-breaking for their classes?

Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:34 AM by Eldoktor

Just wondering....Why is it always alb or hib NERF ? :d
The NF pets on the of bd ?
the svg DPS ?

Seems a bit more thing to nerf !

Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:08 PM by Arkiluth

Ombrix wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 2:12 AM
Exemple:
- Orange = 60%
- Red = 70%
- Purple = 80%

60% on an orange?

No.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:19 PM by Isavyr

Ok now presenting a second idea. To repeat my first:

First idea: When the charm is broken, the pet remains in prior CC. Therefore, charming/uncharming has no effect on the status effects of the pet.

Second Idea: When the charm is broken, the pet continues to lose CC, but loses all threat. Therefore, it will not attack its owner and break its owner of CC. I think it may have worked this way on Uthgard (but my memory is poor). It makes the pet formidable but the minstrel (and groupmates, if the owner is intelligent) no longer gets unlimited purges.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM by Nauglamir

First of all, there is no macro requirement, i play without. Second, you allow macro programs, if you don't want em, don't allow them - but don't use it as a reason for a class nerf because some people use em and profit by doing so. Otherwise, what's about Skalds giving 20% resi buffs and dmg add to the whole group, with 1 button, totally needs resi songs to be tuned down. Or does it?

If you wanna make it really easy for yourself, so that people overwhelmed by the class can play it and have a pet (right now, tons of bad minstrels run without one) - you can go full Electronic Arts, give em sorc permacharm next to song charm, people can pick if they want a yellow pet without effort or a higher level one with effort.

On the topic of high level pets - they got nerfed hard, purple ones are for rr10+ only and hard to get, most low rr minsts run around with orange ones, because effort. Example for op pet - lvl 58 barguest, red (you can use those from rr6 onwards) hits for 118 on your typical chain wearer, every 3.5 seconds, has +-2k hp, dies to an assist train within seconds, does not sprint, is no op caster pet without 2nd los check.

Honest question - as a class that's built around charming a companion and working with it (not sending it at the next target and forgetting it til it pulled guards), how strong/weak do you want that companion to be? An average Skald outdamages minstrel+pet already, while having much better defense.

So .. Green druid pet strong? Blue ench pet strong? Bd pet strong? Hunter pet strong? All of em are recastable and have a ton of utility

On the piggy purge - it can be countered, yet it does require thought and timing in groupplay, comparable to the timing needed to mezz both your mid healers at the same time, and way less than mezzing bard +menta+mentapet. Easier solution is to shred the pet, as groups on live did for decades, i assure you. I totally agree the functionality is a nightmare in solo play if you are a caster (one could argue that's the minstrels role, though, pretty sure Mythic didn't just implement the mechanic and forget to fix it while it was totally and utterly broken). And for Midgard, as it can act as a counter to the cc and insta overkill the realm has. Maybe that's also a reason why Menta, as 2nd demezzer of Hibernia, has the same tool, with slightly different implementation that's more suitable to caster gameplay than the front ogerish Minstrel, with different banes and boons? Marc Jacobs is no idiot.

Oh, and solo skalds could actually use it to their advantage, if they managed to put some thought into the proper timing of their easy to use insta cc.

So, just one thing - please don't completely break the class and kill the fun of mastering it because some solo players have a hard time beating it up with one hand and posted uninformed nonsense for 50 pages. Would be a shame.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:05 PM by Nauglamir

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:19 PM
Ok now presenting a second idea. To repeat my first:

First idea: When the charm is broken, the pet remains in prior CC. Therefore, charming/uncharming has no effect on the status effects of the pet.

Second Idea: When the charm is broken, the pet continues to lose CC, but loses all threat. Therefore, it will not attack its owner and break its owner of CC. I think it may have worked this way on Uthgard (but my memory is poor). It makes the pet formidable but the minstrel (and groupmates, if the owner is intelligent) no longer gets unlimited purges.

Uthgard 1 had it like in your first idea, Uthgard 2 got the version from live.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:12 PM by oldmanukko

am i missing somthing or....

IS IT GOING TO BE EASIER TO PLAY AN OVER-POWERED CLASS?!?!?!

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:19 PM by joshisanonymous

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
On the topic of high level pets - they got nerfed hard, purple ones are for rr10+ only and hard to get, most low rr minsts run around with orange ones, because effort. Example for op pet - lvl 58 barguest, red (you can use those from rr6 onwards) hits for 118 on your typical chain wearer, every 3.5 seconds, has +-2k hp, dies to an assist train within seconds, does not sprint, is no op caster pet without 2nd los check.

I don't even think the pet level is an issue, but this is nonsense. The only time I see any minstrel of any RR with a pet lower than red, it's an ellyll sage, which is one of those "op caster pet without 2nd los check" types you're talking about, isn't it? (Also, incredibly hard to see until it starts nuking you.) And are 8mans really spending time running a whole assist train on your pet? If so, what other pet in the game requires this treatment?

Nauglamir wrote: On the piggy purge - it can be countered, yet it does require thought and timing in groupplay, comparable to the timing needed to mezz both your mid healers at the same time, and way less than mezzing bard +menta+mentapet. Easier solution is to shred the pet, as groups on live did for decades, i assure you. I totally agree the functionality is a nightmare in solo play if you are a caster (one could argue that's the minstrels role, though, pretty sure Mythic didn't just implement the mechanic and forget to fix it while it was totally and utterly broken). And for Midgard, as it can act as a counter to the cc and insta overkill the realm has. Maybe that's also a reason why Menta, as 2nd demezzer oh Hinernia, has the same tool. Marc Jacobs is no idiot.

Oh, and solo skalds could actually use it to their advantage, if they managed to put some thought into the proper timing of their easy to use insta cc.

Yes, they absolutely would leave something utterly broken for years. Marc Jacobs did design a good game, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't possibly have made any mistakes. I mean, when the game came out, there was no CC immunity. How did he overlook that giant flaw?

In any case, in a group situation, sure, spend your time eating through 2000 HP on a pet. I'm sure that's why I've never watched an 8v8 video where this was done. But even if that's a good option, the issue becomes compounded as group sizes get smaller: you no longer have the option of trying to do 2000 extra damage while letting the minstrel run around free, and it becomes much harder to CC the pet for the second or two that it's been released for.

Being completely un-CCable (both pet and minstrel) is a stupid mechanic; just accept it.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:36 PM by Isavyr

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:19 PM
In any case, in a group situation, sure, spend your time eating through 2000 HP on a pet. I'm sure that's why I've never watched an 8v8 video where this was done. But even if that's a good option, the issue becomes compounded as group sizes get smaller: you no longer have the option of trying to do 2000 extra damage while letting the minstrel run around free, and it becomes much harder to CC the pet for the second or two that it's been released for.

It's not really a point anyway. Because everything dies by an assist train within seconds--minstrel pets aren't unique here--oh wait, they are. They have higher resist rate. And people who've tested red pets put the hp around 2500, which is up there with the highest HP tanks.

The fact it's easier to "shred" the pets (as Naug pointed out) speak to the silliness of minstrel design--it's easier to simply kill a pet equivalent to a player than try CC. Let me be clear--this isn't a unique counter; everything is nullified by death.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:47 PM by Nauglamir

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:19 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
On the topic of high level pets - they got nerfed hard, purple ones are for rr10+ only and hard to get, most low rr minsts run around with orange ones, because effort. Example for op pet - lvl 58 barguest, red (you can use those from rr6 onwards) hits for 118 on your typical chain wearer, every 3.5 seconds, has +-2k hp, dies to an assist train within seconds, does not sprint, is no op caster pet without 2nd los check.

I don't even think the pet level is an issue, but this is nonsense. The only time I see any minstrel of any RR with a pet lower than red, it's an ellyll sage, which is one of those "op caster pet without 2nd los check" types you're talking about, isn't it? (Also, incredibly hard to see until it starts nuking you.) And are 8mans really spending time running a whole assist train on your pet? If so, what other pet in the game requires this treatment?

Nauglamir wrote: On the piggy purge - it can be countered, yet it does require thought and timing in groupplay, comparable to the timing needed to mezz both your mid healers at the same time, and way less than mezzing bard +menta+mentapet. Easier solution is to shred the pet, as groups on live did for decades, i assure you. I totally agree the functionality is a nightmare in solo play if you are a caster (one could argue that's the minstrels role, though, pretty sure Mythic didn't just implement the mechanic and forget to fix it while it was totally and utterly broken). And for Midgard, as it can act as a counter to the cc and insta overkill the realm has. Maybe that's also a reason why Menta, as 2nd demezzer oh Hinernia, has the same tool. Marc Jacobs is no idiot.

Oh, and solo skalds could actually use it to their advantage, if they managed to put some thought into the proper timing of their easy to use insta cc.

Yes, they absolutely would leave something utterly broken for years. Marc Jacobs did design a good game, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't possibly have made any mistakes. I mean, when the game came out, there was no CC immunity. How did he overlook that giant flaw?

In any case, in a group situation, sure, spend your time eating through 2000 HP on a pet. I'm sure that's why I've never watched an 8v8 video where this was done. But even if that's a good option, the issue becomes compounded as group sizes get smaller: you no longer have the option of trying to do 2000 extra damage while letting the minstrel run around free, and it becomes much harder to CC the pet for the second or two that it's been released for.

Being completely un-CCable (both pet and minstrel) is a stupid mechanic; just accept it.

He pioneered when it came to three realms, mmorpgs, rvr and crowd control, guess that's why there was necessary evolution. Regarding how competitive groups handled minstrel, menta and all other pets (especially bd) - you seem to have no insight. Not talking bout watching a video, talking about actually doing. And that's what groups always did. Good ones. I just wanted to express that nerfing is not the only way, because one can work with the systems in place and prevail. And Minstrel/Pet are not, again, completely unccable. S like saying a det tank is completely unccable. He is not. It's just harder to control him. Now one could say that det should go, cause of how hard it is to mezz a berserker for longer than 2 seconds. But that doesn't happen, cause it's a given.

But if it's a stupid system and handling a Minstrel can't be done, I'll accept it, because you, as a player with one hand on the coffee mug, tells me to.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:53 PM by Isavyr

Nauglamir wrote: Regarding how competitive groups handled minstrel, menta and all other pets (especially bd) - you seem to have no insight. ... And that's what groups always did. Good ones. I just wanted to express that nerfing is not the only way, because one can work with the systems in place and prevail. And Minstrel/Pet are not, again, completely unccable. S like saying a det tank is completely unccable. He is not. It's just harder to control him. Now one could say that det should go, cause of how hard it is to mezz a berserker for longer than 2 seconds. But that doesn't happen, cause it's a given.

This amounts to saying that because the 35 kg has weight, its is about the same as a 25 kg weight. "It's not weightless, so it's fine!"

Edit: And no, a single target mezz will keep a stoicism tank out for eight seconds. A minstrel would be considered bad to allow their pet to be CC'd for eight seconds when all they have to do is release it.

These arguments are painful to read Naug.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:59 PM by joshisanonymous

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:47 PM
He pioneered when it came to three realms, mmorpgs, rvr and crowd control, guess that's why there was necessary evolution. Regarding how competitive groups handled minstrel, menta and all other pets (especially bd) - you seem to have no insight. Not talking bout watching a video, talking about actually doing. And that's what groups always did. Good ones. I just wanted to express that nerfing is not the only way, because one can work with the systems in place and prevail. And Minstrel/Pet are not, again, completely unccable. S like saying a det tank is completely unccable. He is not. It's just harder to control him. Now one could say that det should go, cause of how hard it is to mezz a berserker for longer than 2 seconds. But that doesn't happen, cause it's a given.

I have no insight in the sense of not having played competitive 8v8 myself, but we all know that 8v8ers are all about showing off how elite they are, so there are literally hundreds of videos available of these competitive players showing off their talents. Either none of those videos are made by good players or I've somehow overlooked all the times when they've shown how they simply running an assist train on the Barguest. (And I've, admittedly, watched way too many DAoC videos in my life.)

And yes, they are completely un-CCable. You just said it yourself that it's easier to kill a pet with 2000 HP than it is to try to CC it, and as long as the pet exists, the pet and minstrel both have unlimited purges. And comparing this to a high det tank is nonsense, as well, since that tank had to spend 22 points to get there while every freshly made minstrel is automatically un-CCable.

Nauglamir wrote: But if it's a stupid system and handling a Minstrel can't be done, I'll accept it, because you, as a player with one hand on the coffee mug, tells me to.

Don't be a douche.

Edit: Well I'll at least retract my claim that 8v8 groups don't seem to kill minstrel pets. Here's an example: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

However, there seem to be two levians running with that group, an OJ held by an RR5, and a purple held by an RR3 (in addition to a red held by an RR3 who appears to maybe be an add). It also took those Hibs a minute and a half to deal with those pets, and I'm pretty sure Dark Dawn is a good guild, right? So we're still left with a lot of absurdity here: despite being a good guild, they don't seem to even attempt to CC the pets during releases, they spend a good portion of the fight trying to deal with those pets, and the red and purple pets are both held by RR3s.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM by Nauglamir

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:59 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 4:47 PM
He pioneered when it came to three realms, mmorpgs, rvr and crowd control, guess that's why there was necessary evolution. Regarding how competitive groups handled minstrel, menta and all other pets (especially bd) - you seem to have no insight. Not talking bout watching a video, talking about actually doing. And that's what groups always did. Good ones. I just wanted to express that nerfing is not the only way, because one can work with the systems in place and prevail. And Minstrel/Pet are not, again, completely unccable. S like saying a det tank is completely unccable. He is not. It's just harder to control him. Now one could say that det should go, cause of how hard it is to mezz a berserker for longer than 2 seconds. But that doesn't happen, cause it's a given.

I have no insight in the sense of not having played competitive 8v8 myself, but we all know that 8v8ers are all about showing off how elite they are, so there are literally hundreds of videos available of these competitive players showing off their talents. Either none of those videos are made by good players or I've somehow overlooked all the times when they've shown how they simply running an assist train on the Barguest. (And I've, admittedly, watched way too many DAoC videos in my life.)

And yes, they are completely un-CCable. You just said it yourself that it's easier to kill a pet with 2000 HP than it is to try to CC it, and as long as the pet exists, the pet and minstrel both have unlimited purges. And comparing this to a high det tank is nonsense, as well, since that tank had to spend 34 points to get there while every freshly made minstrel is automatically un-CCable.

Nauglamir wrote: But if it's a stupid system and handling a Minstrel can't be done, I'll accept it, because you, as a player with one hand on the coffee mug, tells me to.

Don't be a douche.

A freshly made minstrel carries an orange pet, killed by a single tank...within slam time? 3-4 hits? But man, all good, you guys are right, the system needs to go.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:18 PM by Isavyr

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
A freshly made minstrel carries an orange pet, killed by a single tank...within slam time? 3-4 hits? But man, all good, you guys are right, the system needs to go.

1) That's an unsubstantiated claim. If I had a phoenix test server to readily use, I would show you that this is wrong. But since you made the point, it's up to you to substantiate it anyway.

2) Do you think a freshly made minstrel should have access to red pets, then? (Personally, I wouldn't care) What are you trying to say?

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:31 PM by Nauglamir

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:18 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:06 PM
A freshly made minstrel carries an orange pet, killed by a single tank...within slam time? 3-4 hits? But man, all good, you guys are right, the system needs to go.

1) That's an unsubstantiated claim. If I had a phoenix test server to readily use, I would show you that this is wrong. But since you made the point, it's up to you to substantiate it anyway.

2) Do you think a freshly made minstrel should have access to red pets, then? (Personally, I wouldn't care) What are you trying to say?

Freshly made (rr1&2) minstrel has 50% resist rate on the lowest lvl (56) red pet and will have a lot of fun with it in rvr. Not, cause it needs too much micro management in addition to playing the toon, it's hard to learn, I can hardly handle 50% in the heat of battle. So he goes probably orange. S what I see whenever I leave Beno. Low RR/New Minstrel, with an orange pet.

Answering that it takes 34 Ra points to get det while a freshly made minstrel is totally un ccable. That unccability is fragile, at start. S all i wanted to say. Orange Pet, easily killed, no piggypurge. And for the piggypurge, you need to - recognize the pet's mezzed, release pet, click pet cause you definitely loose it as a target on release, recharm (1,2,x times based on resist rate), target enemy, send pet, keep awareness of the general situation up and do the things you were doing yourself in between/next to it to not get wrecked in the meantime. So yes, purge for free, but at the cost of massive micromanagement. Free, but not soo easy, in daoc standards.

Whatever, I said what I wanted to say, will wait for what is to come

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:44 PM by Caemma

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
On the piggy purge - it can be countered, yet it does require thought and timing in groupplay, comparable to the timing needed to mezz both your mid healers at the same time, and way less than mezzing bard +menta+mentapet.

NOPE.
If it was "that simple" nobody would be here talking about it, I guess right?

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
Easier solution is to shred the pet, as groups on live did for decades, i assure you.

Saddly, YEP.

I believe you never fought a minstrel as a CC'er on either Mid or Hib.
You should try it sometimes, it would enlight you on the pain you get from fighting one during a 8v8 with the same skillpool.

CC'ing a good minstrel and the stealing/CC his pet is not as simple as on paper cause of the bigger threat level he leaves on his pet upon release and the fact that he can simple clear its CC anytime.

I would like to test the threat level myself, but mine is level 28 and I'm not currently playing on Alb.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM by Nauglamir

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:44 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
On the piggy purge - it can be countered, yet it does require thought and timing in groupplay, comparable to the timing needed to mezz both your mid healers at the same time, and way less than mezzing bard +menta+mentapet.
NOPE.
If it was "that simple" nobody would be here talking about it, I guess right?

Never said it was "that simple" - it's just doable. As it's doable to take out a Bard + Menta and steal away the Menta pet afterwards. Superhard, but doable. Very rewarding :-P

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:44 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 3:54 PM
Easier solution is to shred the pet, as groups on live did for decades, i assure you.
Saddly, YEP.

I believe you never fought a minstrel as a CC'er on either Mid or Hib.
You should try it sometimes, it would enlight you on the pain you get from fighting one during a 8v8 with the same skillpool.

CC'ing a good minstrel and the stealing/CC his pet is not as simple as on paper cause of the bigger threat level he leaves on his pet upon release and the fact that he can simple clear its CC anytime.

I would like to test the threat level myself, but mine is level 28 and I'm not currently playing on Alb.

I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall. Yet I wouldn't start crying for them to loose that ability.
On the threat level - one taunt, one dd is enough. Confusion should work too. But if you try before release, it just doesn't work

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:03 PM by Centenario

Minstrel changes:
- Minstrel can charm red pet (max) if composite music is high enough
- Minstrel charmed pet have 50% Stoicism and abandoning pet doesnt remove CC
- Minstrel charm is similar to sorc charm, but its a cast similar to necro.
- Minstrel get 2x spec points instead of 1.5
- Minstrel get access to Shield line (prot/guard/intercept) (but can only use small shields)
- Minstrel stun is changed to 2300 range Amnesia instant with 10sec CD

Possible Spec:
- 29 Stealth
- 29 Slash
- 42 Shield
- 50 Music

Becomes Off-tank like savage and gets access to det.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:04 PM by Caemma

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall. Yet I wouldn't start crying for them to loose that ability.
On the threat level - one taunt, one dd is enough. Confusion should work too. But if you try before release, it just doesn't work

Can't talk about Mentalists, I haven't fought against them yet, but I definitely can test it soon.

And no, one taunt, one DD is NOT enough.
I guess that is the key part that you're missing out, thus thinking that's just lack of skill.

I've tried to steal the pet from the minstrel that sent his pet away (very risky fyi) and a DD wasn't enough, neither 2 styles did.
On the confusion there is a good amount of uncertainty since it's hard to properly test it during a fight.

Also, it might simply be that the minstrel put the pet Passive & Here before release it so that it would make even more impossible to CC it before it attacks the owner (if you CC it, it will purge on release, if you wait for release it will be already too late).
As a minstrel you might clear out this last thing I guess, right?

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:10 PM by Centenario

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:03 PM
Minstrel changes:
- Minstrel can charm red pet (max) if composite music is high enough
- Minstrel charmed pet have 50% Stoicism and abandoning pet doesnt remove CC
- Minstrel charm is similar to sorc charm, but its a cast similar to necro.
- Minstrel get 2x spec points instead of 1.5
- Minstrel get access to Shield line (prot/guard/intercept) (but can only use small shields)
- Minstrel stun is changed to 2300 range Amnesia instant with 10sec CD

Possible Spec:
- 29 Stealth
- 29 Slash
- 42 Shield
- 50 Music

Becomes Off-tank like savage and gets access to det.

I can make another proposal more towards skald-type of minstrel:

Give minstrel the spec line: Two-Handed and give him enough points to go 43 music, 50 two-handed 30 stealth and 30 weapon.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:17 PM by Nauglamir

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:04 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall. Yet I wouldn't start crying for them to loose that ability.
On the threat level - one taunt, one dd is enough. Confusion should work too. But if you try before release, it just doesn't work

Can't talk about Mentalists, I haven't fought against them yet, but I definitely can test it soon.

And no, one taunt, one DD is NOT enough.
I guess that is the key part that you're missing out, thus thinking that's just lack of skill.

I've tried to steal the pet from the minstrel that sent his pet away (very risky fyi) and a DD wasn't enough, neither 2 styles did.
On the confusion there is a good amount of uncertainty since it's hard to properly test it during a fight.

One taunt is enough - after release.

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:04 PM
Also, it might simply be that the minstrel put the pet Passive & Here before release it so that it would make even more impossible to CC it before it attacks the owner (if you CC it, it will purge on release, if you wait for release it will be already too late).
As a minstrel you might clear out this last thing I guess, right?

That's how it works.
Pet is set on passive, it walks back, you release it, it hits you. Every Minstrel and Mentalist should do that.
As a counter, you cc the owner, cc the pet, steal the pet after release. Or simply kill the pet. Paper Daoc of the highest order, too hard for people, broken system that needs to go! :-P

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:17 PM by Isavyr

Caemma thanks for adding in. Agree with your points.

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
Never said it was "that simple" - it's just doable.

It's also beside the point--it's imbalanced, which you don't acknowledge. It requires far more skill on the enemy and an absurdly high coordination to accomplish it (and this singular "counter" is in turn countered by purge). It's far easier to kill the pet, which is the go-to tactic. It demonstrates how broken this behavior is when the go-to tactic is to kill it. This demonstrates that there is no counter to the pet.

Again, a 35 kg weight is heavier than 25 kg weight. Even if you can lift both, the 35 kg weight is heavier, no?

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall.

I've yet to see one person complain about mentalists. I don't mean to offend you but this clearly shows that you're really out of touch with both the community and the difference between the two classes.

The pet is more complementary with the minstrel, which plays enemy's backline and serves as both a rupter and DPS. Clothy mentalist serve as a DPS and don't play in the enemy's backline, limiting their effectiveness of the pet exploits. It's significantly easier to counter the mentalist than the minstrel because of their position and role.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:23 PM by Isavyr

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:10 PM
Minstrel changes:
- Minstrel can charm red pet (max) if composite music is high enough
- Minstrel charmed pet have 50% Stoicism and abandoning pet doesnt remove CC
- Minstrel charm is similar to sorc charm, but its a cast similar to necro.
- Minstrel get 2x spec points instead of 1.5
- Minstrel get access to Shield line (prot/guard/intercept) (but can only use small shields)
- Minstrel stun is changed to 2300 range Amnesia instant with 10sec CD

Possible Spec:
- 29 Stealth
- 29 Slash
- 42 Shield
- 50 Music

Becomes Off-tank like savage and gets access to det.

I can make another proposal more towards skald-type of minstrel:
Give minstrel the spec line: Two-Handed and give him enough points to go 43 music, 50 two-handed 30 stealth and 30 weapon.

I could see 75% stoicism on the pet being a viable third option to the other two ideas I suggested. To be clear, in this instance, uncharming the pet would need to clear the aggro table, therefore it could not be used to automatically break one's own (or teammates) mezz & roots. And furthermore, in this vein, dropping the pet would not clear the pet's CC either as this would be redundant with the 75% stoicism.

The other ideas are frankly outlandish. They drastically change the minstrel to be unrecognizable, and introduce further balance issues.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:33 PM by Nauglamir

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:17 PM
Caemma thanks for adding in. Agree with your points.

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
Never said it was "that simple" - it's just doable.

It's also beside the point--it's imbalanced, which you don't acknowledge. It requires far more skill on the enemy and an absurdly high coordination to accomplish it (and this singular "counter" is in turn countered by purge). It's far easier to kill the pet, which is the go-to tactic. It demonstrates how broken this behavior is when the go-to tactic is to kill it. This demonstrates that there is no counter to the pet.

Again, a 35 kg weight is heavier than 25 kg weight. Even if you can lift both, the 35 kg weight is heavier, no?

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:52 PM
I'm playing against Mentalists, they are the same. Maybe worse, cause they have a way easier job overall.

I've yet to see one person complain about mentalists. I don't mean to offend you but this clearly shows that you're really out of touch with both the community and the difference between the two classes.

The pet is more complementary with the minstrel, which plays enemy's backline and serves as both a rupter and DPS. Clothy mentalist serve as a DPS and don't play in the enemy's backline, limiting their effectiveness of the pet exploits. It's significantly easier to counter the mentalist than the minstrel because of their position and role.

Mentalist is an unccable demezzer with tremendous castspeed that can piggy purge root from a safe position and total overview over the battlefield. Them being less effective on their "pet exploit" is just not right. They just don't create that much anger as Minstrels solo a lot and a few good ones kill a lot, which leads to a lot of crying. People lost against Minstrels, they need to be nerfed. In smallmen, 8vs8 and zerg environment, Menta can "pet exploit" as good or better, I'm pretty sure about.
And your weight allegory just makes no sense. I'd think about dropping it, it's no as good as you think it is ^^

Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:58 PM by Isavyr

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:33 PM
Mentalist is an unccable demezzer with tremendous castspeed that can piggy purge root from a safe position and total overview over the battlefield. Them being less effective on their "pet exploit" is just not right. They just don't create that much anger as Minstrels solo a lot and a few good ones kill a lot, which leads to a lot of crying. People lost against Minstrels, they need to be nerfed. In smallmen,
And your weight allegory just makes no sense. I'd think about dropping it, it's no as good as you think it is ^^

Again, no talk about balance in your post--maybe that's why the weight allegory does not make sense to you. The 35 kg weight is the minstrel--it's significant heavier than the other. You may be able to lift both, but we're not primarily discussing whether you can lift it (CC it), but whether it's balanced. Maybe it should be 25 kg and 100 kg weight to make sense since you focus on the CC aspect. In this instance, you can probably lift the 100 kg weight--if you prepare and get in the right position and lift correctly. But it's obviously not balanced and the lifting isn't easily or quickly accomplished by most people anyway.

Also, you made some incorrect assumptions. Both myself and (I believe Caemma) are 8v8 player. Furthermore, I both have a minstrel and play with/against them.

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 6:33 PM
Menta can "pet exploit" as good or better, I'm pretty sure about.

No. The fetch time on a mentalist to get de-rooted/mezzed by pet is significant. The pet has to wander across the entire battlefield, unless he keeps pet to himself, in which case it's not interrupting the enemy. The minstrel plays a forward position, so he gets to do both--keep pet on players to disrupt/damage them, and be close enough to pet to self-remove CC. In short, he brings a disproportionate amount of rupting (and incidental damage) without reasonable counters.

At any rate, the charm mechanic needs to be reworked, which pertains to both classes, so unless you can comment on balance, this discussion won't be fruitful.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:16 PM by Siouxsie

* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:20 PM by Isavyr

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:16 PM
* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.

The pet already gets weakened when charmed, so this isn't an issue of examining the mob damage table so much as tweaking coefficients as necessary. To that end, what is your opinion on how much the should should be weakened when charmed? What is the target HP? What is the target DPS?

Since the minstrel cannot resummon the pet, I personally believe it needs a fairly rugged pet to compensate.

And lastly, I agree with you about class design, but I doubt Marc Jacobs designed every class personally, and anyway, it's the fault of the twisting system which was largely ignored/overlooked by Mythic as a whole. For example, take the paladin. If it was intended to have AF, DA, heal, endo and multiple resist chants up simultaneously, there would be no need for different individual chants. Yet, because they overlooked the idea of twisting (and then it became "part" of the class) there are all sorts of wonky designs; the paladin has power, yet never uses it (when twisting properly). It has the choice between running one chant permanently, yet is expected to run multiple at any given time to play most efficiently. I bring this up because the minstrel is largely the same, but the Paladin is a more obvious example of the failure of Mythic to address the chant/pulse system. Skald and a few other classes share in this nonsense, unfortunately.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:39 PM by Tyrlaan

So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:01 AM by borodino1812

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:39 PM
So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?

Are you trying to make the point that Skalds are more OP than Minstrels?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:12 AM by Tyrlaan

borodino1812 wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:01 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 10:39 PM
So where are the Skald changes? Determination (not even Live gave them Det because it´s overpowered, they opted for a mere root reduction instead) since day 1, leading the /serverinfo list as most played class on average since day 1. Yet there´s proposed changes to Minstrels and Bards only?

Speed 5/6 classes are essential on a server without speed warp. It´s better that they are popular (even though they can obviously not reach the popularity of Skalds, hint hint) than making people stop playing them because somebody thought it a good idea to nerf what makes them unique and powerful.

I haven´t even mentioned Celerity and higher hitpoints to Mid tank groups yet.

Edit: As of now there are 54 Skalds, 34 Minstrels and 33 Bards online... so what is the purpose of these nerfs?

Are you trying to make the point that Skalds are more OP than Minstrels?

Does OP matter if it´s a class that´s not dominating population? And if it was so OP as people claim why isn´t everybody and their brother playing it? Plenty of classes are strong in some context. Others are powerful in many more. We surely don´t need people to stop playing Minstrels or Bards when it´s in fact Skalds who are leading the list of classes most played by a large margin.

Also it seems the stuff the other realms cry most about is getting nerfed. So where´s Skalds, Celerity, BDs, Healers in general on the list of proposed changes QQ 2020?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 12:23 AM by Cadebrennus

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 9:16 PM
* Raise resist rates on pet charm so pet has more chance to break out of charm (it was like this on live)
* Halve the damage table, and lower hit points of the charmed pet. Ellyl champs hit for 240-260, barguests have ton of hp. Lower these stats when they get charmed.
or.. just make Ellyls and Barguests and other red/purple pets that have massive damage uncharmable. Should be easy. Go through the world build database and check the damage tables. If it's overpowered, nerf the mob or flag the mob as uncharmable.

I don't know what Marc Jacobs was smoking when he came up with the minstrel but it's got too much utility than what it should have.
An 18 year old mistake is still a mistake.

Marc Jacobs: okay, we got this game as balanced as it's going to be for a launch. Oooh, I think I'll play a Minstrel......

Fri 27 Mar 2020 6:42 AM by Corkster

Played Minstrel since game first started. My minst is my most played character on this server. His high level charm was fine on live. On this server minst has got a pile of utility compared to other classes. Ive played against him many times also.

My vote:
Max charm level 55. Having a purple or even red pet when you've got speed, sos, instant stun, 2 instant DD's, and almost uninterruptible single mez, is a bad combination.
Leave rest of the mechanics as is, but make it run along side other chants and make range on charm 1000 units. Make minst have to stay close to pet to keep it charmed.

All of us have seen minst in DF with a purple pet wrecking havoc.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 7:32 AM by Nauglamir

Corkster wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 6:42 AM
My minst is my most played character on this server. His high level charm was fine on live. On this server minst has got a pile of utility compared to other classes.

On live (where the charm was easier to maintain and the pets way more powerful) it was fine, here it is not?
Says Corkster, RR4 Bard. What's your Minstrel, actually, just curious? Sounds like a superfishy story

Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:41 AM by ajeje

casted charme , minstrel 2h .. what am i reading here ? this is the minstrel, is not easy to play, now becouse some soloers cry u nerf a class? even Caemma crying.
i did a post talking about casters dmg and HP increase but dont see many mids crying about it , while savages still eating casters.
Just put a max lvl charme .

Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM by Arkiluth

Do minstrels need a nerf? Sure why not. Nerf how high of a pet they can get. Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Leave CC breaking alone. It''s part of the class mechanics for over 20 years. The main people I see here complaining about minstrels are soloer's who don't know how to deal with the pets. Good players know how to handle minstrels.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:23 PM by jwalker

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Do minstrels need a nerf? Sure why not. Nerf how high of a pet they can get. Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Leave CC breaking alone. It''s part of the class mechanics for over 20 years. The main people I see here complaining about minstrels are soloer's who don't know how to deal with the pets. Good players know how to handle minstrels.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

For a typical solo class - what exactly a "good way" to handle a purple pet? Please enlighten us

Minstrel would still be a decent class even if they just had a orange pet using the sorc charm mechanic.

p.s. I also don't understand why some people here think a 60% resist rate pet is harder to hold than a 40% with the current system. You just make your keystroke activate charms 5x in a row then you have it for at least 10 seconds. Thanks to no endu/mana cost and keystrokes without delay allowed via macro its really simple (I used target pet macro, deactivate charm, activate, deactivate, activate, MHB chant, activate, harm, Speed, activate)

Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:52 PM by ajeje

jwalker wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:23 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Do minstrels need a nerf? Sure why not. Nerf how high of a pet they can get. Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Leave CC breaking alone. It''s part of the class mechanics for over 20 years. The main people I see here complaining about minstrels are soloer's who don't know how to deal with the pets. Good players know how to handle minstrels.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

For a typical solo class - what exactly a "good way" to handle a purple pet? Please enlighten us

Minstrel would still be a decent class even if they just had a orange pet using the sorc charm mechanic.

p.s. I also don't understand why some people here think a 60% resist rate pet is harder to hold than a 40% with the current system. You just make your keystroke activate charms 5x in a row then you have it for at least 10 seconds. Thanks to no endu/mana cost and keystrokes without delay allowed via macro its really simple (I used target pet macro, deactivate charm, activate, deactivate, activate, MHB chant, activate, harm, Speed, activate)

just put max charme lvl at 54 that is the first lvl red . good minstrels 1v1 are unbeatable , it always been , stop cry. orange pet will destroy the smallmen/8v8 action, cuz can 3 shots the orange pet mezz minstrel and byebye with no det. you should add determination and do a shitty thing. PLS dont touch the mechanics or u really going to ruin the server for a few qqing soloers.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:00 PM by Arkiluth

jwalker wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 2:23 PM
For a typical solo class - what exactly a "good way" to handle a purple pet? Please enlighten us

If it's a purple pet you're up a high RR Minstrel. And "typical" solo class is too broad to engage in proper discussion. Some solo classes are better at dealing with minstrels than others.

Game mechanics. Deal with it.

P.S- I am all for not allowing minstrels to charm purple or even red pets.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:48 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

Mashing your face against your keyboard doesn't elevate your skill. I'm surprised anyone would defend this. Should we re-implement multiple instruments too, because bards/minstrels have it too "easy" using multiple songs on a lute? How many unnecessary gates should we add or maintain in this game? This is nonsense.

Skill is in knowing your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates. It has nothing to do with unnecessary button mashing to perform an expected role.

edit: And let's be clear in your solo situation--running away from the enemy while spamming charm on a pet that demolishes your enemy is not skilled micromanagement. But this is a distraction as the problem is with minstrels overall and not strictly their solo game--too many people are trying to muddy the waters by focusing on the "whiner solos" instead of the 8-mans, which also have valid issues.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 4:53 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:48 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

Mashing your face against your keyboard doesn't elevate your skill. I'm surprised anyone would defend this. Should we re-implement multiple instruments too, because bards/minstrels have it too "easy" using multiple songs on a lute? How many unnecessary gates should we add or maintain in this game? This is nonsense.

Skill is in knowing your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates. It has nothing to do with unnecessary button mashing to perform an expected role.

edit: And let's be clear in your solo situation--running away from the enemy while spamming charm on a pet that demolishes your enemy is not skilled micromanagement. But this is a distraction as the problem is with minstrels overall and not strictly their solo game--too many people are trying to muddy the waters by focusing on the "whiner solos" instead of the 8-mans, which also have valid issues.

I still stand by my comment that the Minstrel class is one of the hardest classes to play in DAOC at the moment. Mix in all the things you mentioned, - your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates, plus the micromanagement and button smashing that Minstrels require, all sums up to total player skill.

I don't believe Devs should make Minstrels easier to play, but do agree to cap the pet level minstrels can charm. No reds/Purples for example.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:09 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 4:53 PM
I don't believe Devs should make Minstrels easier to play, but...

Why not? What is one good reason for this class being a cluster-fuck to play, while others are not?

Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:13 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:09 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 4:53 PM
I don't believe Devs should make Minstrels easier to play, but...

Why not? What is one good reason for this class being a cluster-fuck to play, while others are not?

Because there are too many mindless characters in the game as it is. In addition, the Minstrel is a STRONG class, but it is HARD to play. I prefer that than nerfing the minstrel and making it easier to play. I prefer to reward those who have the skillset as opposed to dumbing down the class as a whole.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:17 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:13 PM
Because there are too many mindless characters in the game as it is. In addition, the Minstrel is a STRONG class, but it is HARD to play. I prefer that than nerfing the minstrel and making it easier to play. I prefer to reward those who have the skillset as opposed to dumbing down the class as a whole.

Fair enough. This is a volatile type of balancing that I think is very unhealthy for games. DAOC already has so much skill involved that removing button-mashing is not going to negatively change things. No, it will likely positively change things as Albion groups run more readily because there are more Minstrels willing to play with pets.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:21 PM by Centenario

The main issue with Minstrel is to figure out if the player is playing with or without delay in macro.
Since it is difficult to verify, it is easier to make this macro playing not necessary.
So making the pet not a song has to be done.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 8:59 PM by SinfulByNature

I think Mini's pet should have a retake timer of some sort. or shouldnt not have CC insta broken. And Bard mezz range should be buffed if you take away amnesia range.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:29 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:13 PM
Because there are too many mindless characters in the game as it is. In addition, the Minstrel is a STRONG class, but it is HARD to play. I prefer that than nerfing the minstrel and making it easier to play. I prefer to reward those who have the skillset as opposed to dumbing down the class as a whole.

Fair enough. This is a volatile type of balancing that I think is very unhealthy for games. DAOC already has so much skill involved that removing button-mashing is not going to negatively change things. No, it will likely positively change things as Albion groups run more readily because there are more Minstrels willing to play with pets.

I disagree with you. Having class complexities, and micro management is a skill in itself. The Minstrel is a powerful character, in the hands of someone who has the skill set to micro manage his/her movements, clicks, and rotations.

To say thats no big deal and white wash it as "button smashing" is to not understand the complexities of the high bar it takes to be a monster on the minstrel. If you want to be a speed class, a monster in 1v1, and want a MINDLESS GAMEPLAY mechanic, you do have an option.

Skald.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:10 PM by Isavyr

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:29 PM
To say thats no big deal and white wash it as "button smashing" is to not understand the complexities of the high bar it takes to be a monster on the minstrel.

If button mashing isn't part of the high bar to be a monster minstrel, then there's no issue in removing it.

I get that you like this arbitary mechanic because it makes the class more difficult and perhaps you want to see less pet-toting minstrels around (which is what this accomplishes), but it's still arbitrary and not the cornerstone to good design. Games that promote this type of playstyle never do more than attract cult followings, which is unfortunately where this game has sat for awhile.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:43 PM by Arkiluth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 10:10 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:29 PM
To say thats no big deal and white wash it as "button smashing" is to not understand the complexities of the high bar it takes to be a monster on the minstrel.

If button mashing isn't part of the high bar to be a monster minstrel, then there's no issue in removing it.

I get that you like this arbitary mechanic because it makes the class more difficult and perhaps you want to see less pet-toting minstrels around (which is what this accomplishes), but it's still arbitrary and not the cornerstone to good design. Games that promote this type of playstyle never do more than attract cult followings, which is unfortunately where this game has sat for awhile.

I understand your concerns, but playing a minstrel at the highest caliber is a bit more complicated than "button smashing". It's the ability to fully control your character to do what you want it to do when reacting to your environment and circumstance. Throughout conventional online gaming, the more powerful classes/characters tend to be the more difficult ones to control. This holds especially true for ALL e-sports online games.

The idea to "nerf but keep things mindless" brings a level of boredom to a 20 year old game. DAOC should be rich and complex (Reason why it still has survived over 20 years), not boring and stupid. Player skill, with a complicated class, is the cornerstone of good PVP. Don't believe me? Follow any e-sports out there. We already have powerful 'easy to play' classes out there (Skald), let's not do the same with minstrels.

Nerf red or purple pets, but keep the mechanics in place. All of it.

Fri 27 Mar 2020 11:01 PM by gotwqqd

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:29 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:13 PM
Because there are too many mindless characters in the game as it is. In addition, the Minstrel is a STRONG class, but it is HARD to play. I prefer that than nerfing the minstrel and making it easier to play. I prefer to reward those who have the skillset as opposed to dumbing down the class as a whole.

Fair enough. This is a volatile type of balancing that I think is very unhealthy for games. DAOC already has so much skill involved that removing button-mashing is not going to negatively change things. No, it will likely positively change things as Albion groups run more readily because there are more Minstrels willing to play with pets.

I disagree with you. Having class complexities, and micro management is a skill in itself. The Minstrel is a powerful character, in the hands of someone who has the skill set to micro manage his/her movements, clicks, and rotations.

To say thats no big deal and white wash it as "button smashing" is to not understand the complexities of the high bar it takes to be a monster on the minstrel. If you want to be a speed class, a monster in 1v1, and want a MINDLESS GAMEPLAY mechanic, you do have an option.

Skald.

Click target
Send pet
DD,DD
Dance around

Fri 27 Mar 2020 11:10 PM by Arkiluth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 11:01 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 9:29 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 5:17 PM
Fair enough. This is a volatile type of balancing that I think is very unhealthy for games. DAOC already has so much skill involved that removing button-mashing is not going to negatively change things. No, it will likely positively change things as Albion groups run more readily because there are more Minstrels willing to play with pets.

I disagree with you. Having class complexities, and micro management is a skill in itself. The Minstrel is a powerful character, in the hands of someone who has the skill set to micro manage his/her movements, clicks, and rotations.

To say thats no big deal and white wash it as "button smashing" is to not understand the complexities of the high bar it takes to be a monster on the minstrel. If you want to be a speed class, a monster in 1v1, and want a MINDLESS GAMEPLAY mechanic, you do have an option.

Skald.
Click target
Send pet
DD,DD
Dance around

This is an example of what someone sees when they get beaten by a minstrel who uses that method of killing. Also, a soloer who does not do well against minstrels who use this method. I do not sympathize for 1v1 loses. Some classes are better vs minstrels than others. Simply put. This goes for other classes in the game as well. (I am assuming that the poster is of equal level skill set of those minstrels who dance around him, as to not imply insult).

Fri 27 Mar 2020 11:28 PM by Iuppiter

ITT: minstrels who think they're God's gift to daoc and will assure you that the class doesn't need any changes - they're just that skilled! - when in reality they're playing a class that has had bad/broken mechanics on Phoenix since day 1... and btw any AHK rube worth his salt can code a minstrel to be no more difficult to manage than a "mindless" class, that's not L337 skillz (unless you don't use AHK/macros at all, in which case you're a masochist and I tip my hat to you) - it's just an extra step that casual/social players won't put in the extra effort to do - hence fewer minstrels. I see no reason not to make the class more accessible...maybe we'd even see more alb pugs wander away from keeps @ NA times.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM by sylvynyr

Kinda seems like the Minstrel Charm mechanic (instant with no power or end cost) was meant to allow Minstrels to twist Charm and Songs by pressing each button. Add macroing software with keyboard keypress repeating aspects and you break the mechanic, overcoming the failure pulse condition allowing for higher con, higher resist rate pet consistency that was arguably never intended (remember when DAOC wouldn't even let you Alt-Tab? DAOX).

Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

Adding a Power/End cost would stop the endless spamming, but then it hurts Minstrel twisting which should not be intended. If you limit pets by level, you are effectively changing the core mechanic that also affects Mentalists and changes an underlying system, which should not be intended.

Perhaps an option to resolve the concern would be to add a minimal recast time such as 1-2 seconds, or somehow limit key press input so a button can't just be held down to spam multiple triggers per second. The former seems easier to implement and less potential for unexpected consequences elsewhere.

To repeat how seemingly "easy" it is currently to maintain Minstrel Charm:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=65604#p65604

You can hold down charm button WHILST playing your song. BTW.
Song will still activate once it completes playing and then fade for the 11 seconds or so. (11 seconds with 100% instrument)

So:
(With pet selected its as simple as)
Press Speed, Hold Charm Button Down > Loop.

My AHK Script Does the following:
When Q is pressed down:: Equip Harp, Select Pet, Play Song. (this just runs once, when q is pressed)
Whilst Q is being held down:: Spams Charm

So I basically just press and hold Q once for 4 seconds every 8 seconds.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:22 AM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM
Kinda seems like the Minstrel Charm mechanic (instant with no power or end cost) was meant to allow Minstrels to twist Charm and Songs by pressing each button. Add macroing software with keyboard keypress repeating aspects and you break the mechanic, overcoming the failure pulse condition allowing for higher con, higher resist rate pet consistency that was arguably never intended (remember when DAOC wouldn't even let you Alt-Tab? DAOX).

Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

Adding a Power/End cost would stop the endless spamming, but then it hurts Minstrel twisting which should not be intended. If you limit pets by level, you are effectively changing the core mechanic that also affects Mentalists and changes an underlying system, which should not be intended.

Perhaps an option to resolve the concern would be to add a minimal recast time such as 1-2 seconds, or somehow limit key press input so a button can't just be held down to spam multiple triggers per second. The former seems easier to implement and less potential for unexpected consequences elsewhere.

To repeat how seemingly "easy" it is currently to maintain Minstrel Charm:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=65604#p65604

You can hold down charm button WHILST playing your song. BTW.
Song will still activate once it completes playing and then fade for the 11 seconds or so. (11 seconds with 100% instrument)

So:
(With pet selected its as simple as)
Press Speed, Hold Charm Button Down > Loop.

My AHK Script Does the following:
When Q is pressed down:: Equip Harp, Select Pet, Play Song. (this just runs once, when q is pressed)
Whilst Q is being held down:: Spams Charm

So I basically just press and hold Q once for 4 seconds every 8 seconds.

If I remember correctly mentalist pulsing charm pretty much acts same way as minstrels aside from initial cast to charm. The pulses cost mana. But I thought you can hit release and a pulse will reaquire.
The issue is they cannot “force”/spam pulses so the pet is far more likely to break charm temporarily when high level

Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:48 AM by electrowilly

Sounds like people are upset with Gwed and Zigey running purple pets in DF. I am Zigey. I didn't get good at minstrel until RR6+; it's an incredibly difficult class to play well. I've taught 20+ new/low RR minstrels all my tricks and maybe 2 are still playing, the learning curve is STEEP. People are upset about losing 1v1 to a few RR8+ minstrels when most aren't in the same ballpark RR. I'm never going to beat a perfectly played RR8+ SM and RR8+ BDs are pretty damn hard. Without a red pet, forget beating most high RR players.

Yes, if I've planned the fight, my exit route, and am around pets, I'm going to kill you 1v1 and probably 2v1 if you're low RR. I also kill plenty of people 2v1 and 3v1 on my sorc and cab. Making the class easier to play by not having to manage pet charm is going to require more nerfs in the future. It's a very powerful class, but minor mistakes mean you lose, that's the balance of the class.

When played perfectly, minstrel is probably the strongest 1v1 class, but it's definitely the hardest to play perfectly. I don't use any scripts, because scripts prohibit you from being able to play perfectly, on the fly, reacting to every situation.

Cap pet charm to red pets? Sure.
Make it easier to keep charm up? You're going to suddenly have a flood of scrub minstrels who can play pretty well.

Before you complain, try to play a minstrel successfully. You will suck for months. There is no class harder to become an expert at.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:39 AM by Corkster

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 7:32 AM
Corkster wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 6:42 AM
My minst is my most played character on this server. His high level charm was fine on live. On this server minst has got a pile of utility compared to other classes.

On live (where the charm was easier to maintain and the pets way more powerful) it was fine, here it is not?
Says Corkster, RR4 Bard. What's your Minstrel, actually, just curious? Sounds like a superfishy story

Calling someone out without doing any research is just lazy.
All my characters have a similar name, go find them...

My opinion still stands. A good minstrel doesn't need a such high level pet. There should be no reason they can charm a purple or even higher red pets.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:58 AM by Loki

electrowilly wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:48 AM
Before you complain, try to play a minstrel successfully. You will suck for months.

Such a heart warming story, you sucked at your class so you decided to go and camp lowbies exping in DF ... a story as old as Phoenix .

Before you tell people to play a minstrel, try playing against one. Then you'll see how many unfair advantages and free passes you get. Capped at red pet ? It should be orange max.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:02 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:58 AM
electrowilly wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:48 AM
Before you complain, try to play a minstrel successfully. You will suck for months.

Such a heart warming story, you sucked at your class so you decided to go and camp lowbies exping in DF ... a story as old as Phoenix .

Before you tell people to play a minstrel, try playing against one. Then you'll see how many unfair advantages and free passes you get. Capped at red pet ? It should be orange max.

I will tell you one thing. You are one of the soloers who fail to beat a good minstrel and always come on the forums when you get crushed.

It takes a very long time to master a Minstrel. Zig is correct. He has taught many minstrels how to play properly, as Zig is one of the best on this server. I am one of the ones Zig taught. You say Zig sucked at his class? I've seen him pull off some amazing things due to his skill set, so your insult of how good he is it a bit of an embarrassment to your character. But let's not dive into insults shall we? Lets stick to the topic.

I respect skill, not unfounded whines.

Hi by the way.

-Skreemz

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:09 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:02 AM
I will tell you one thing. You are one of the soloers who fail to beat a good minstrel and always come on the forums when you get crushed.
-Skreemz

You dont solo long enough to pass judgement on who does what . Besides, do you have any comments on the class or are just here to whine about me knowing that if I dare reply, you'll get Cooky to ban me again ? Keep up the good buffs, my dude . It's all you have going for you, as minstrel you do not exist on this server.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:12 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:09 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:02 AM
I will tell you one thing. You are one of the soloers who fail to beat a good minstrel and always come on the forums when you get crushed.
-Skreemz

You dont solo long enough to pass judgement on who does what . Besides, do you have any comments on the class or are just here to whine about me knowing that if I dare reply, you'll get Cooky to ban me again ? Keep up the good buffs, my dude . It's all you have going for you, as minstrel you do not exist on this server.

Let's stick to the topic shall we? or are you here just to insult minstrels that crush you and cry foul? Learn from your ban. Crying and whining gets you no where.

With that said, I will agree with you on one thing. I am OK with lowering the level cap of the pets they can charm. Barring purples or even reds. See? We can agree on somethings, can't we?

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:13 AM by daytonchambers

electrowilly wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:48 AM
Sounds like people are upset with Gwed and Zigey running purple pets in DF. I am Zigey. I didn't get good at minstrel until RR6+; it's an incredibly difficult class to play well. I've taught 20+ new/low RR minstrels all my tricks and maybe 2 are still playing, the learning curve is STEEP. People are upset about losing 1v1 to a few RR8+ minstrels when most aren't in the same ballpark RR. I'm never going to beat a perfectly played RR8+ SM and RR8+ BDs are pretty damn hard. Without a red pet, forget beating most high RR players.

Yes, if I've planned the fight, my exit route, and am around pets, I'm going to kill you 1v1 and probably 2v1 if you're low RR. I also kill plenty of people 2v1 and 3v1 on my sorc and cab. Making the class easier to play by not having to manage pet charm is going to require more nerfs in the future. It's a very powerful class, but minor mistakes mean you lose, that's the balance of the class.

When played perfectly, minstrel is probably the strongest 1v1 class, but it's definitely the hardest to play perfectly. I don't use any scripts, because scripts prohibit you from being able to play perfectly, on the fly, reacting to every situation.

Cap pet charm to red pets? Sure.
Make it easier to keep charm up? You're going to suddenly have a flood of scrub minstrels who can play pretty well.

Before you complain, try to play a minstrel successfully. You will suck for months. There is no class harder to become an expert at.

You've spent your whole life in DF killing XPers. Now you come in here acting like what you do takes skill.

I hope someone keys your car IRL

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:17 AM by Arkiluth

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:13 AM
electrowilly wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:48 AM
Sounds like people are upset with Gwed and Zigey running purple pets in DF. I am Zigey. I didn't get good at minstrel until RR6+; it's an incredibly difficult class to play well. I've taught 20+ new/low RR minstrels all my tricks and maybe 2 are still playing, the learning curve is STEEP. People are upset about losing 1v1 to a few RR8+ minstrels when most aren't in the same ballpark RR. I'm never going to beat a perfectly played RR8+ SM and RR8+ BDs are pretty damn hard. Without a red pet, forget beating most high RR players.

Yes, if I've planned the fight, my exit route, and am around pets, I'm going to kill you 1v1 and probably 2v1 if you're low RR. I also kill plenty of people 2v1 and 3v1 on my sorc and cab. Making the class easier to play by not having to manage pet charm is going to require more nerfs in the future. It's a very powerful class, but minor mistakes mean you lose, that's the balance of the class.

When played perfectly, minstrel is probably the strongest 1v1 class, but it's definitely the hardest to play perfectly. I don't use any scripts, because scripts prohibit you from being able to play perfectly, on the fly, reacting to every situation.

Cap pet charm to red pets? Sure.
Make it easier to keep charm up? You're going to suddenly have a flood of scrub minstrels who can play pretty well.

Before you complain, try to play a minstrel successfully. You will suck for months. There is no class harder to become an expert at.

You've spent your whole life in DF killing XPers. Now you come in here acting like what you do takes skill.

I hope someone keys your car IRL

A misrepresentation. Zig does not kill "xp"ers in DF. Zig kills full groups of 45+ xpers. Full groups of 45+ xpers is impressive, and no easy feat and many XP grps have lvl 50's in them. Honestly, it's amazing to watch at the things he can pull off. A regular minstrel can't just go to full groups of 45+ and wipe them all. Zig uses environment, terrain, timing, etc to execute full groups, solo.

Sorry mate, I have to respect that skill. And if someone doesn't want to risk dying to PVP, they should not be lvling in DF.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:20 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:12 AM
Let's stick to the topic shall we? or are you here just to insult minstrels that crush you and cry foul? Learn from your ban. Crying and whining gets you no where.

Learn from my ban ? I called you a clown ingame in a private message, where you have the option to block me. And you are so self important that you cannot accept that what you are doing is unfair, so you called your GM buddy to have me banned for "harassment" , a word which he clearly doesn't understand. What I learned is that I should not invest time in a server where GMs abuse the rules and interpret them as they want them to, thats what I learned. You are still a cheater and people know you as one.

You dont get to barf your subtle threatening hints and then tell me to stick to the topic. I am not intimidated by your connections, I had my fun on this server and I can't be arsed to play nice with a guy who doesn't understand fair play. As for me getting owned by minstrels, ask around ... besides , stats speak for themselves. You have 800 solo kills and 900 deaths, vs my 1140/815 . Ive fought a lot of minstrels, feel free to do some research. And no one logs their chars to buff me .

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:22 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:17 AM
A misrepresentation. Zig does not kill "xp"ers in DF. Zig kills full groups of 45+ xpers. Full groups of 45+ xpers is impressive, and no easy feat and many XP grps have lvl 50's in them.

jesus , rofl ...so much for sticking to the topic I guess.

I dare say from a fg of expers , one maybe two people max have purge at all. Stay behind a wall, aoe mezz, pick them off one by one, ta-daaa

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:23 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:20 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:12 AM
Let's stick to the topic shall we? or are you here just to insult minstrels that crush you and cry foul? Learn from your ban. Crying and whining gets you no where.

Learn from my ban ? I called you a clown ingame in a private message, where you have the option to block me. And you are so self important that you cannot accept that what you are doing is unfair, so you called your GM buddy to have me banned for "harassment" , a word which he clearly doesn't understand. What I learned is that I should not invest time in a server where GMs abuse the rules and interpret them as they want them to, thats what I learned. You are still a cheater and people know you as one.

You dont get to barf your subtle threatening hints and then tell me to stick to the topic. I am not intimidated by your connections, I had my fun on this server and I can't be arsed to play nice with a guy who doesn't understand fair play. As for me getting owned by minstrels, ask around ... besides , stats speak for themselves. You have 800 solo kills and 900 deaths, vs my 1140/815 . Ive fought a lot of minstrels, feel free to do some research. And no one logs their chars to buff me .

I hope you got this out of your system. You seemed eager to vent. I'll let you have the final word, as I'd like to get back on topic.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:26 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:22 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:17 AM
A misrepresentation. Zig does not kill "xp"ers in DF. Zig kills full groups of 45+ xpers. Full groups of 45+ xpers is impressive, and no easy feat and many XP grps have lvl 50's in them.
jesus , rofl ...so much for sticking to the topic I guess.

I dare say from a fg of expers , one maybe two people max have purge at all. Stay behind a wall, aoe mezz, pick them off one by one, ta-daaa

You'd make a such highly skilled minstrel...

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:26 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:23 AM
I hope you got this out of your system. You seemed eager to vent. I'll let you have the final word, as I'd like to get back on topic.

Yeah I can see that, you're all over the topic ...you know whats funny, you have never, at any point, denied it . Even more, I have provided extensive proof that you are, indeed, a cheater ... still you're here, arrogantly acting as the better man. Such a shame really

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:27 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:26 AM
You'd make a such highly skilled minstrel...

Ohh more of the same topic, I see ... I wouldn't because I don't like hiding behind a pet, and then running off as soon as its dead and calling that a win in my book .

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:26 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:23 AM
I hope you got this out of your system. You seemed eager to vent. I'll let you have the final word, as I'd like to get back on topic.

Yeah I can see that, you're all over the topic ...you know whats funny, you have never, at any point, denied it . Even more, I have provided extensive proof that you are, indeed, a cheater ... still you're here, arrogantly acting as the better man. Such a shame really

Loki,

I suggest you do what others do who "report" cheaters. Report things to GMs. Whining and crying about a minstrel who got buffed by someone is one of the dumbest things. So you know, when I play my wizard, I buff all guild mates as they run by with dmg add and dmg shield. Guess what, others do the same. Choosing this forum to display your frustrations and whining because you can never kill me is a bit embarrassing. However, because I am the better person, I will opt to ignore your future posts.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:36 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 AM
I suggest you do what others do who "report" cheaters. Report things to GMs. Whining and crying about a minstrel who got buffed by someone is one of the dumbest things. So you know, when I play my wizard, I buff all guild mates as they run by. Guess what, others do the same. Choosing this forum to display your frustrations and whining is a bit embarrassing. However, because I am the better person, I will opt to ignore your future posts.

Oh dont worry, I did that with every proof needed. It's obvious you're well connected and will get a pass on that. Being buffed every now and then is no biggie, but not when it happens 100% of the time, no sir ... You can't trick me there

And with group buffs too. As I said, Ive fought plenty of minstrels and a few with that exact pet. None of them had bladeturn or cleric body resists.

And no I didnt chose the forums to vent, you hinted at my ban and thought I would be too afraid to comment further because you got a GM to silence me instantly. Next time, just talk about minstrels and dont do personal attacks. I'm up to the challenge, idgaf .

Btw, gj liking your own post. Thats a nice touch, really helps with your image.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:38 AM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:36 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 AM
I suggest you do what others do who "report" cheaters. Report things to GMs. Whining and crying about a minstrel who got buffed by someone is one of the dumbest things. So you know, when I play my wizard, I buff all guild mates as they run by. Guess what, others do the same. Choosing this forum to display your frustrations and whining is a bit embarrassing. However, because I am the better person, I will opt to ignore your future posts.

Oh dont worry, I did that with every proof needed. It's obvious you're well connected and will get a pass on that. Being buffed every now and then is no biggie, but not when it happens 100% of the time, no sir ... You can't trick me there And with group buffs too. As I said, Ive fought plenty of minstrels and a few with that exact pet. None of them had bladeturn or cleric body resists.

And no I didnt chose the forums to vent, you hinted at my ban and thought I would be too afraid to comment further because you got a GM to silence me instantly. Next time, just talk about minstrels and dont do personal attacks. I'm up to the challenge, idgaf .

Btw, gj liking your own post. Thats a nice touch, really helps with your image.

/golfclap.

So back on topic. Keep minstrels difficult to play, and just limit the level mob they can charm

.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:23 AM by daytonchambers

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:17 AM
A misrepresentation. Zig does not kill "xp"ers in DF. Zig kills full groups of 45+ xpers. Full groups of 45+ xpers is impressive, and no easy feat and many XP grps have lvl 50's in them. Honestly, it's amazing to watch at the things he can pull off. A regular minstrel can't just go to full groups of 45+ and wipe them all. Zig uses environment, terrain, timing, etc to execute full groups, solo.

Sorry mate, I have to respect that skill. And if someone doesn't want to risk dying to PVP, they should not be lvling in DF.

Yeah... waiting for the full pull of shredders to cast an ae mez on the grp then focusing the support toons takes a jedi-master level of skill. And the only time I've seen him pull that little stunt he wasn't alone.

See you soon Skreemz. Likely in the Gorge, doing what minstrels do best.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:58 AM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:38 AM
Keep minstrels difficult to play, and just limit the level mob they can charm .

Definitely a good idea. Hey btw, do you still meet up with your friend Dartt in the corner of Jamtland, where he keeps coming so you can kill him and farm RPs blatantly against the rules ? Or was it just that one time, when I caught him...

Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:41 AM by Nauglamir

Corkster wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:39 AM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 7:32 AM
Corkster wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 6:42 AM
My minst is my most played character on this server. His high level charm was fine on live. On this server minst has got a pile of utility compared to other classes.

On live (where the charm was easier to maintain and the pets way more powerful) it was fine, here it is not?
Says Corkster, RR4 Bard. What's your Minstrel, actually, just curious? Sounds like a superfishy story

Calling someone out without doing any research is just lazy.
All my characters have a similar name, go find them...

My opinion still stands. A good minstrel doesn't need a such high level pet. There should be no reason they can charm a purple or even higher red pets.

?

And that's basically all there is to say on the topic of crying, honesty and desired nerfing on this server. 50 pages of that crap and you made it.
Just in case I'm totally wrong with my evaluation and did you wrong here - I apologize upfront

Sat 28 Mar 2020 11:30 AM by Killaloth

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Hold my beer for a second:
- Mezz while walking & can't be amnesied: check
- Infinite purges with pet: check
- Moc demez: check
- Insta stun: check
- Chain armor: check
- Insta charm: check
- Access to purp pet: check
- Infinite pet purges by releasing it: check
- Stealth, Climb walls, MoS, SF: check, check, check, check;
- unmez/unroot friendly targets while being Mezzed, Stunned: check

Access to SOS and IP, no need to say.

At the event good minis were using multiple pets as soon as one red pet with a ton of hps was agroed by anything after release, leaving our 5 or 6 man with a couple of red pets to deal with if the fight was next to a tree full of pets = game over.

Caemma wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 8:12 PM
Pets should clear the aggro list everytime they get released and just run to the "charmer" with the minimun aggro.
That would allow decent CCers to actually counter the CC break meachanic that basically gives free & infinite purges to everyone with one charmed pet.

Also, another possibility would be that releasing a charmed pet would also remove the immunities to CCs other than the only current active CCs.

This are so far the most sensible suggestions presented before the thread switched to OT mode.

There are plenty of nasty orange pets out there, lowering the level of charmable mobs won't make such a difference, it's the CC immunity that drives people crazy.

I don't think we should make it easier to play the strongest class on the server, a lot of people would rush to the fotm class out there. Thank god you need more than 2 fingers to play a mini.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:54 PM by ajeje

welcome to phoenix. real classic experience. full custom

Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:13 PM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 4:58 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:38 AM
Keep minstrels difficult to play, and just limit the level mob they can charm .

Definitely a good idea. Hey btw, do you still meet up with your friend Dartt in the corner of Jamtland, where he keeps coming so you can kill him and farm RPs blatantly against the rules ? Or was it just that one time, when I caught him...

I don't recall the name, but I am sure it was someone who tried more than once to kill me. but only ended up eating dirt. Story sound familiar?

/bow. Your conspiracy theories are cute, and your attempt to argue or make these accusations on a public forum (instead of just reporting to GMs - you are are just full of QQ's) is very very embarrassing. One can say that I was farming you for RP's if you go look after kill spams. <3. You've gone off the deep end. Guess I made an impact on you huh.

And you do showcase the frustration some soloers have vs minstrels, which is why this discussion is taking place. Soloers who expect to kill ALL minstrels, when there will be minstrels who will just outperform you time and time again.

Glad we both agree on minstrel changes however. Keep them difficult to play, lower pet lvl they can charm.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:29 PM by Caemma

I've managed to test some of the charm mechanics for minstrel with a friend (hopefully will find a mentalist that is willing to do the same).

So far:
- In normal conditions, from what I could see: upon pet release it actually reset its aggro list with just the minstrel in it and you can aggro its pet (or CC it if not immune), for that I'm sorry that I was saying the opposite in previous post (it's hard to proper test things during a fight for several reasons)
- Any decent minstrel will never release pet before it reaches minstrel (passive / here), therefore the above case should never happen in reality, period. (and that is why I got tricked many times, as said in the above sentence)

Then, we started testing Confusion (there is still more to be done / understood):
- Charmed minstrel pets are <incredibly immune> to confusion: yes, you read it right => cast confusion on pet => no resist, and no effects on it (hey, devs? why there is such "special" immunity? *wink*)
- If minstrel release the pet, it <magically> become vulnerable to confusion! (who once said that pets act same as mobs? Well, here is the answer: No.)
- Lots of ppl said that confusion (when it lands

) should force the pet to defensive (=> can't put it passive => can't call it to you => here is our possible counter), from what we've seen that is not entirely true: it does make the pet not follow its commands, but it makes it behave as passive (the pets will run to the owner even if he tries to send it to someone or if it get hit multiple times) --> BUG? -Need more investigation
- Fun fact, if you confuse the pet (when miraculously isn't controlled by the minstrel) you have a window of around 30s (depending on your confusion duration and pet resists - haven't really counted it sry) where you can try to CC the minstrel and when he releases his pet (even if melee range) it will just walk away, making it the only possible way to counter that cheesy mechanic.

As I said, there is still more to be tested/studied about confusion - it seems a really buggy spell in here.
There are moments (we're not entirely sure yet how to trigger those) that makes the pet incredibly "angry" to its owner that even if you taunt the mob multiple times (when it's not under control of course..) it doesn't give a shit and keep hitting the minstrel (why?).

Would be nice to have some patch notes / 15 years old videos or forum threads around those years, related to minstrel charm or confusion to clarify some of those aspects cause I believe there are many legends (and many bugs that contribuited to build those...)
Also a word from Staff/Dev about "how it is working here" would be much appreciated.

Be safe, stay away from minstrels

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:41 PM by Loki

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:13 PM
Story sound familiar? /bow.

I think you're a bit confused

the one time you killed me, you were fully buffed with fresh blade turns on both you and pet and cutting 50 damage off my DDs because of that 50% body. The fact that you boast about it and praise Zigey for killing unsuspecting untemplated lowbies , proves the type of mindset you have. One day you'll realize you really have no idea how to play that class efficiently, and that you spent the time you could have used to build muscle memory on waiting up for a buddy to log his cleric so you can go out and pretend you own .

Btw, since you threatened to /dance the next time you kill me, my SB and skald have been dancing on your corpse a whole lot

enjoy it

Also, just repeating one sentence doesnt make it on topic

thought you realized it 5 posts ago

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:54 PM by joshisanonymous

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM
Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

This is probably why you don't find RR3 mentalists with red and purple pets but you can easily find RR3 minstrels with red and purple pets. (Besides the fact that mentalists are probably 45~46 light, of course, but that's hardly the issue since an RR3 minstrel should in no way be able to hold a purple pet despite being 50 instruments.)

Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:56 PM by Nauglamir

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:41 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:13 PM
Story sound familiar? /bow.

I think you're a bit confused the one time you killed me, you were fully buffed with fresh blade turns on both you and pet and cutting 50 damage off my DDs because of that 50% body. The fact that you boast about it and praise Zigey for killing unsuspecting untemplated lowbies , proves the type of mindset you have. One day you'll realize you really have no idea how to play that class efficiently, and that you spent the time you could have used to build muscle memory on waiting up for a buddy to log his cleric so you can go out and pretend you own .

Btw, since you threatened to /dance the next time you kill me, my SB and skald have been dancing on your corpse a whole lot enjoy it

Also, just repeating one sentence doesnt make it on topic thought you realized it 5 posts ago

Say no more - nerf Skald, yes? And SB, yes?
Nudgenudge!

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:06 PM by Caemma

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:54 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM
Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

This is probably why you don't find RR3 mentalists with red and purple pets but you can easily find RR3 minstrels with red and purple pets. (Besides the fact that mentalists are probably 45~46 light, of course, but that's hardly the issue since an RR3 minstrel should in no way be able to hold a purple pet despite being 50 instruments.)

Just wanted to add that also the fact that -only here- songs don't consume endurance - thus spamming them also has no drawbacks.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 PM by Arkiluth

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:41 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:13 PM
Story sound familiar? /bow.

I think you're a bit confused the one time you killed me, you were fully buffed with fresh blade turns on both you and pet and cutting 50 damage off my DDs because of that 50% body. The fact that you boast about it and praise Zigey for killing unsuspecting untemplated lowbies , proves the type of mindset you have. One day you'll realize you really have no idea how to play that class efficiently, and that you spent the time you could have used to build muscle memory on waiting up for a buddy to log his cleric so you can go out and pretend you own .

Btw, since you threatened to /dance the next time you kill me, my SB and skald have been dancing on your corpse a whole lot enjoy it

Also, just repeating one sentence doesnt make it on topic thought you realized it 5 posts ago

I don't recall losing to SB's and skalds lately. Making more stuff up? And Zig and Gwed are amazing minstrels. I respect and praise skill. I also don't recall anyone /dancing. Or maybe I just didnt care enough to pay attention? Who knows. I don't even recall who your toons are in game to be honest ^_^. All I remember is some guy flipping out at my guildies via discord because you couldn't beat me and then getting banned by a GM for your uncontrolled outbursts. Please let me know who your toons are, so I can make sure I /bow next time.

I may even ask my entire guild to buff me, just to twist your nerves even further

. lol . So you know, I honestly never cared about 1v1 etiquette. Nor have I ever claimed I am of higher or lower skill than anyone. If you happen to eat the dirt whenever you come across me, then avoid me next time.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:13 PM by yanabulgaria1

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:41 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 1:13 PM
Story sound familiar? /bow.
One day you'll realize you really have no idea how to play that class efficiently, and that you spent the time you could have used to build muscle memory on waiting up for a buddy to log his cleric so you can go out and pretend you own .

Btw, since you threatened to /dance the next time you kill me, my SB and skald have been dancing on your corpse a whole lot enjoy it

Lok,

Why, throughout all the forums, do you always bash or complain about someone who beats you? This is not the first time you do this. Who cares if someone got damage add buffs or whatever on their way out to PVP. You lost, deal with it. Don't take it personal. You're unhinged. I can see why you got a ban. You do this all the time with people on the forums.

Arkiluth,

You too. Stop feeding trolls.

---

I normally don't have an issue with minstrels because I am always in RVR BG, not solo. I can see the argument to removing purple pets for them. But, weren't minstrels already nerfed multiple times? Why more nerfs (just trying to understand). Bards don't own 1v1 like minis or skalds, so maybe bards should get 1v1 buffs ^_^.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 6:33 PM by Isavyr

yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:13 PM
I normally don't have an issue with minstrels because I am always in RVR BG, not solo. I can see the argument to removing purple pets for them. But, weren't minstrels already nerfed multiple times? Why more nerfs (just trying to understand). Bards don't own 1v1 like minis or skalds, so maybe bards should get 1v1 buffs ^_^.

I think this argument should be dismissed. The people making the arguments that pets should be further nerfed..
1) don't have any data to support their position
2) don't have any stated goal of how strong pets should be.

Without data to support where they are, or a stated goal, it's a fruitless argument. It's a pity this thread has devolved away from any types of suggestions. There are only about three to four ideas in this entire thread.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 10:08 PM by dougrighteous1

just what minstrels need. more love. as if they don't have ridiculous utility and killing and kiting power at all levels anyway.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 10:54 PM by yanabulgaria1

dougrighteous1 wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 10:08 PM
just what minstrels need. more love. as if they don't have ridiculous utility and killing and kiting power at all levels anyway.

I don't think they are buffing minstrels ^_^.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 10:56 PM by yanabulgaria1

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 6:33 PM
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 5:13 PM
I normally don't have an issue with minstrels because I am always in RVR BG, not solo. I can see the argument to removing purple pets for them. But, weren't minstrels already nerfed multiple times? Why more nerfs (just trying to understand). Bards don't own 1v1 like minis or skalds, so maybe bards should get 1v1 buffs ^_^.

I think this argument should be dismissed. The people making the arguments that pets should be further nerfed..
1) don't have any data to support their position
2) don't have any stated goal of how strong pets should be.

Without data to support where they are, or a stated goal, it's a fruitless argument. It's a pity this thread has devolved away from any types of suggestions. There are only about three to four ideas in this entire thread.

I'd like to think that a 20 year old game has the data. I agree with the majority. Limit what con pet they can get or something? I think mentalists should be left alone.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:02 PM by Siouxsie

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:54 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM
Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

This is probably why you don't find RR3 mentalists with red and purple pets but you can easily find RR3 minstrels with red and purple pets. (Besides the fact that mentalists are probably 45~46 light, of course, but that's hardly the issue since an RR3 minstrel should in no way be able to hold a purple pet despite being 50 instruments.)

The reason they can charm purple pets is the exact same reason some lvl 18 enemy toon can mezz a lvl 50.
The resists are all wrong on this server. When I asked about this, the answer was: "We wanted to give lower level
players a chance to be more involved with RVR".

Sorry, but a level 18 player should not be able to mezz a level 50 player. If you try that on a mob of the same level as a low level, you get that 99% chance to resist. Not so vs a player.

It's because of these mechanics that Minstrels are able to zoom around with red and purple pets. Even in Thidranki, minstrels can run around with red pets.

I want to know the reasoning behind a crucial breakage of the game mechanics like the above. It makes the game super lopsided.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:32 PM by bigne88

My suggestion is do like on live: give mincers a second charm spell which is castable and behave like the sorcerer one.
So, if you are lasy ass that dosent want to twist, he can have a yellow pet that cant break CC.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 3:21 PM by Nauglamir

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 2:02 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 2:54 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 12:27 AM
Comparing Minstrels and Mentalists should provide insight into how the pulse based Charm should work. The core difference is that Mentalists have a cast time and therefore cannot be spammed, but Minstrel instant cast is there because they should be able to twist chants; Mentalists have no other chants.

Charm failure condition takes a few seconds (one full pulse iirc) to effectively end the charm and requires successive tick failures to trigger, however when you can hold the button down effectively spamming the Charm at no cost or delay, you can seemingly overcome the failure scenario each second breaking the failure mechanic.

This is probably why you don't find RR3 mentalists with red and purple pets but you can easily find RR3 minstrels with red and purple pets. (Besides the fact that mentalists are probably 45~46 light, of course, but that's hardly the issue since an RR3 minstrel should in no way be able to hold a purple pet despite being 50 instruments.)

The reason they can charm purple pets is the exact same reason some lvl 18 enemy toon can mezz a lvl 50.
The resists are all wrong on this server. When I asked about this, the answer was: "We wanted to give lower level
players a chance to be more involved with RVR".

Sorry, but a level 18 player should not be able to mezz a level 50 player. If you try that on a mob of the same level as a low level, you get that 99% chance to resist. Not so vs a player.

It's because of these mechanics that Minstrels are able to zoom around with red and purple pets. Even in Thidranki, minstrels can run around with red pets.

I want to know the reasoning behind a crucial breakage of the game mechanics like the above. It makes the game super lopsided.

Again, for you.
purple pet = rr 10, as of now. Delete the possibility to charm them, no one will care, no one runs em anyways, they don't matter at all, just in your stories.
red pet on this server = lower dps than a blue ench pet due to numerous nerfs, not recastable but sturdier

And connecting the ability of a minstrel to charm purple pets with rr10 to the unbelievable fact that a lvl 18 player once mezzed you while you tried to kill him while xping is .. yeah, just totally you. That you made a fuss about that and bothered a GM is hilarious. Nerf lvl 18 players!

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:10 AM by Fk_

Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:36 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 AM
I suggest you do what others do who "report" cheaters. Report things to GMs. Whining and crying about a minstrel who got buffed by someone is one of the dumbest things. So you know, when I play my wizard, I buff all guild mates as they run by. Guess what, others do the same. Choosing this forum to display your frustrations and whining is a bit embarrassing. However, because I am the better person, I will opt to ignore your future posts.

Oh dont worry, I did that with every proof needed. It's obvious you're well connected and will get a pass on that. Being buffed every now and then is no biggie, but not when it happens 100% of the time, no sir ... You can't trick me there And with group buffs too. As I said, Ive fought plenty of minstrels and a few with that exact pet. None of them had bladeturn or cleric body resists.

And no I didnt chose the forums to vent, you hinted at my ban and thought I would be too afraid to comment further because you got a GM to silence me instantly. Next time, just talk about minstrels and dont do personal attacks. I'm up to the challenge, idgaf .

Btw, gj liking your own post. Thats a nice touch, really helps with your image.

you realise that, after disbanding from the group, the body resist will disappear instantly? (thanks tosome groups who abused that)

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:17 AM by yanabulgaria1

Fk_ wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:10 AM
Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:36 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:30 AM
I suggest you do what others do who "report" cheaters. Report things to GMs. Whining and crying about a minstrel who got buffed by someone is one of the dumbest things. So you know, when I play my wizard, I buff all guild mates as they run by. Guess what, others do the same. Choosing this forum to display your frustrations and whining is a bit embarrassing. However, because I am the better person, I will opt to ignore your future posts.

Oh dont worry, I did that with every proof needed. It's obvious you're well connected and will get a pass on that. Being buffed every now and then is no biggie, but not when it happens 100% of the time, no sir ... You can't trick me there And with group buffs too. As I said, Ive fought plenty of minstrels and a few with that exact pet. None of them had bladeturn or cleric body resists.

And no I didnt chose the forums to vent, you hinted at my ban and thought I would be too afraid to comment further because you got a GM to silence me instantly. Next time, just talk about minstrels and dont do personal attacks. I'm up to the challenge, idgaf .

Btw, gj liking your own post. Thats a nice touch, really helps with your image.

you realise that, after disbanding from the group, the body resist will disappear instantly? (thanks tosome groups who abused that)

Bard/Skald/Minstrel RA:
The Empty Mind
Type: Active
Re-use: 10 min.
Description:
Grants the user a 45 second bonus to all magical damage. Resists are increased by the percentages listed.
Effect:
+ Rank 1: 10%
+ Rank 2: 15%
+ Rank 3: 20%
+ Rank 4: 25%
+ Rank 5: 30%

Also, so... only high RR minstrels can charm purple pets right? So then why are people complaining about high RR players? All high RR players are kinda like monsters no? Does someone have a damage table of what damage pets do?

Or maybe I am wrong. Can low RR minstrels charm purple pets? If so that should be nerfed

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:27 AM by Lerox

yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:17 AM
Fk_ wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:10 AM
Loki wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Mar 2020 3:36 AM
Oh dont worry, I did that with every proof needed. It's obvious you're well connected and will get a pass on that. Being buffed every now and then is no biggie, but not when it happens 100% of the time, no sir ... You can't trick me there And with group buffs too. As I said, Ive fought plenty of minstrels and a few with that exact pet. None of them had bladeturn or cleric body resists.

And no I didnt chose the forums to vent, you hinted at my ban and thought I would be too afraid to comment further because you got a GM to silence me instantly. Next time, just talk about minstrels and dont do personal attacks. I'm up to the challenge, idgaf .

Btw, gj liking your own post. Thats a nice touch, really helps with your image.

you realise that, after disbanding from the group, the body resist will disappear instantly? (thanks tosome groups who abused that)
Minstrel RA:
The Empty Mind
Type: Active
Re-use: 10 min.
Description:
Grants the user a 45 second bonus to all magical damage. Resists are increased by the percentages listed.
Effect:
+ Rank 1: 10%
+ Rank 2: 15%
+ Rank 3: 20%
+ Rank 4: 25%
+ Rank 5: 30%

Also, so... only high RR minstrels can charm purple pets right? So then why are people complaining about high RR players? All high RR players are kinda like monsters no? Does someone have a damage table of what damage pets do?

Or maybe I am wrong. Can low RR minstrels charm purple pets? If so that should be nerfed

Basic information about the minstrel itself here: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10615
Damage table from pets on current patch to. Tested was damage to Albion chain:

And basically even lower RR could take purple pets (level 61) but it is pain in the ass and not adviceable for RvR.
Following lists represent the resist chance of the spell.

RR4/RR5:

90%

RR6/RR7:

61: 80%

90%

RR8/RR9:

61: 60%

62: 80%

90%

RR10/RR11:

61: 50%

62: 60%

63: 80%

90%

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:31 AM by yanabulgaria1

Lerox wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:27 AM
yanabulgaria1 wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:17 AM
Fk_ wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:10 AM
you realise that, after disbanding from the group, the body resist will disappear instantly? (thanks tosome groups who abused that)
Minstrel RA:
The Empty Mind
Type: Active
Re-use: 10 min.
Description:
Grants the user a 45 second bonus to all magical damage. Resists are increased by the percentages listed.
Effect:
+ Rank 1: 10%
+ Rank 2: 15%
+ Rank 3: 20%
+ Rank 4: 25%
+ Rank 5: 30%

Also, so... only high RR minstrels can charm purple pets right? So then why are people complaining about high RR players? All high RR players are kinda like monsters no? Does someone have a damage table of what damage pets do?

Or maybe I am wrong. Can low RR minstrels charm purple pets? If so that should be nerfed
Basic information about the minstrel itself here: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10615
Damage table from pets on current patch to. Tested was damage to Albion chain:

And basically even lower RR could take purple pets (level 61) but it is pain in the ass and not adviceable for RvR.
Following lists represent the resist chance of the spell.

RR4/RR5:
61: 100%/90%

RR6/RR7:
61: 80%
62: 100%/90%

RR8/RR9:
61: 60%
62: 80%
63: 100%/90%

RR10/RR11:
61: 50%
62: 60%
63: 80%
64: 100%/90%

Ok, those purples hurt. Why not raise the resistance of them? Higher risk to control?

Mon 30 Mar 2020 1:38 AM by Lerox

Well for smallman and solo they can hurt but in my opinion they don't need a further nerf.

Tue 31 Mar 2020 8:46 AM by MacPrior

Just make what Mythic did - give a possibility to run 2 chants in the same time and the matter ist solved.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:43 AM by Gorefindle

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Mar 2020 3:55 PM
This change is part of a series of changes: https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=99782

The exact details are still up in the air on this one and it's likely that this will see a couple tests. The goal is to remove the macro requirement, thereby lowering the bar to entry, and also to lower the ceiling as well.

The only thing so far that is definitely happening is that charm will be able to run concurrently with all other pulse spells. This will remove the need for macros.

As for the other part of the change, we're still discussing it and are not entirely sure yet on how exactly to best achieve the goal. Possible options include making charm have a cast time and be uninterruptible, adding a cooldown and similar things.
In general, our goal here for lowering the ceiling would be that high level pets should have some downside (or be straight up impossible) and that there should also be some counter to the CC removal, not an easy counter but some actual counter with coordination.

Absolutely terrible decision, good thing I saw this when I was level 49 on my minstrel. If the skill cap is lowered on the coolest skill cap-based class in an mmo, I most certainly will not be wasting my time here.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:02 AM by Gorefindle

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:48 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

Mashing your face against your keyboard doesn't elevate your skill. I'm surprised anyone would defend this. Should we re-implement multiple instruments too, because bards/minstrels have it too "easy" using multiple songs on a lute? How many unnecessary gates should we add or maintain in this game? This is nonsense.

Skill is in knowing your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates. It has nothing to do with unnecessary button mashing to perform an expected role.

edit: And let's be clear in your solo situation--running away from the enemy while spamming charm on a pet that demolishes your enemy is not skilled micromanagement. But this is a distraction as the problem is with minstrels overall and not strictly their solo game--too many people are trying to muddy the waters by focusing on the "whiner solos" instead of the 8-mans, which also have valid issues.

I would love all instruments to be implemented and restore the skill-cap of this class fully. The experience is already fading from the greatness that original DAOC was.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:09 AM by gotwqqd

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:02 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:48 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 1:35 PM
Leave the class as is however. The mechanics. They also don't need to be easier to play. Let player skill determine how GOOD a minstrel is, as opposed to making things easier for a majority.

Solo players who play mindless classes that doesn't require micromanagement, or high levels of skill want a MINDLESS easy win vs minstrels. Which is embarrassing.

Mashing your face against your keyboard doesn't elevate your skill. I'm surprised anyone would defend this. Should we re-implement multiple instruments too, because bards/minstrels have it too "easy" using multiple songs on a lute? How many unnecessary gates should we add or maintain in this game? This is nonsense.

Skill is in knowing your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates. It has nothing to do with unnecessary button mashing to perform an expected role.

edit: And let's be clear in your solo situation--running away from the enemy while spamming charm on a pet that demolishes your enemy is not skilled micromanagement. But this is a distraction as the problem is with minstrels overall and not strictly their solo game--too many people are trying to muddy the waters by focusing on the "whiner solos" instead of the 8-mans, which also have valid issues.

I would love all instruments to be implemented and restore the skill-cap of this class fully. The experience is already fading from the greatness that original DAOC was.

I disagree
MMORPG. Is not about having the most nimble fingers switching between many thing and/or spinning and jumping around. Twitch doesn’t belong in the genre

Sure there will be some innate things you can’t get around but DECISION should be the highest determining factor

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:17 AM by Gorefindle

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:09 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:02 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Mar 2020 3:48 PM
Mashing your face against your keyboard doesn't elevate your skill. I'm surprised anyone would defend this. Should we re-implement multiple instruments too, because bards/minstrels have it too "easy" using multiple songs on a lute? How many unnecessary gates should we add or maintain in this game? This is nonsense.

Skill is in knowing your role, your strengths, weaknesses, position, and teammates. It has nothing to do with unnecessary button mashing to perform an expected role.

edit: And let's be clear in your solo situation--running away from the enemy while spamming charm on a pet that demolishes your enemy is not skilled micromanagement. But this is a distraction as the problem is with minstrels overall and not strictly their solo game--too many people are trying to muddy the waters by focusing on the "whiner solos" instead of the 8-mans, which also have valid issues.

I would love all instruments to be implemented and restore the skill-cap of this class fully. The experience is already fading from the greatness that original DAOC was.

I disagree
MMORPG. Is not about having the most nimble fingers switching between many thing and/or spinning and jumping around. Twitch doesn’t belong in the genre

Sure there will be some innate things you can’t get around but DECISION should be the highest determining factor

If implementing all the more difficult things about the class will stop the whining I'm all for it. It just hurts to come back to daoc, be lvl 49, and find this forum post and see the class about to get ruined. I'm calling the bluff and will have no issue playing full skill-cap. Then again I came here expecting a classic-like experience. It's already far from it unfortunately. Well, at least the new mount and blade just came out.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:19 AM by gotwqqd

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:17 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:09 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:02 AM
I would love all instruments to be implemented and restore the skill-cap of this class fully. The experience is already fading from the greatness that original DAOC was.

I disagree
MMORPG. Is not about having the most nimble fingers switching between many thing and/or spinning and jumping around. Twitch doesn’t belong in the genre

Sure there will be some innate things you can’t get around but DECISION should be the highest determining factor

If implementing all the more difficult things about the class will stop the whining I'm all for it. It just hurts to come back to daoc, be lvl 49, and find this forum post and see the class about to get ruined. I'm calling the bluff and will have no issue playing full skill-cap.

The class will be far from ruined
And still likely the best all around 1v1 class

The biggest issue will be MORE will be played, leading to more whining and more nerfs?

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:21 AM by Gorefindle

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:19 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:17 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:09 AM
I disagree
MMORPG. Is not about having the most nimble fingers switching between many thing and/or spinning and jumping around. Twitch doesn’t belong in the genre

Sure there will be some innate things you can’t get around but DECISION should be the highest determining factor

If implementing all the more difficult things about the class will stop the whining I'm all for it. It just hurts to come back to daoc, be lvl 49, and find this forum post and see the class about to get ruined. I'm calling the bluff and will have no issue playing full skill-cap.
The class will be far from ruined
And still likely the best all around 1v1 class

The biggest issue will be MORE will be played, leading to more whining and more nerfs?

No, taking the skill out of the class and therefore lowering it's effectiveness when played at the highest skill level kills the class for me.
I've actually decided to just shelve this game and I'm going to check back later in the year. If the changes are garbage I will just wait for another classic server to become popular.

Too bad I was about an hour or two from 50, at least I'm not going to waste any more time.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:29 AM by sylvynyr

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:21 AM
No, taking the skill out of the class and therefore lowering it's effectiveness when played at the highest skill level kills the class for me.

Still lost at what skill it takes to hold a macro button down for four seconds, then release for four seconds for the purpose of breaking/bypassing the charm fail mechanics providing arguably unintended consistently held high-red/purp con pets at even low RR levels.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:26 AM by Nauglamir

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:21 AM
No, taking the skill out of the class and therefore lowering it's effectiveness when played at the highest skill level kills the class for me.

Still lost at what skill it takes to hold a macro button down for four seconds, then release for four seconds for the purpose of breaking/bypassing the charm fail mechanics providing arguably unintended consistently held high-red/purp con pets at even low RR levels.

You arguably didn't read the data Leroy provided. The only data provided. Or you didn't understand it. And if you did, you have no clue about the gameplay implications.
But you go on and cry about failed mechanics that lead to unintended petlevels charmed at low levels.
In short, there is no high-red and especially not purple con pet charming at low levels.

And on the macro argument, once again - they allowed it, specifically.
So that SBs can switch 2 weapons without effort, Lighttanks can use shields / different dmg types of weapons without effort, Skalds and Paladins can utilize their songs without effort and Minstrels can charm pets with a bit less effort. They made it easier for a whole lot of classes.

Just ban the damn macro usage, but don't use it as an argument for class nerfs.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AM by gotwqqd

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:26 AM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:21 AM
No, taking the skill out of the class and therefore lowering it's effectiveness when played at the highest skill level kills the class for me.

Still lost at what skill it takes to hold a macro button down for four seconds, then release for four seconds for the purpose of breaking/bypassing the charm fail mechanics providing arguably unintended consistently held high-red/purp con pets at even low RR levels.

You arguably didn't read the data Leroy provided. The only data provided. Or you didn't understand it. And if you did, you have no clue about the gameplay implications.
But you go on and cry about failed mechanics that lead to unintended petlevels charmed at low levels.
In short, there is no high-red and especially not purple con pet charming at low levels.

And on the macro argument, once again - they allowed it, specifically.
So that SBs can switch 2 weapons without effort, Lighttanks can use shields / different dmg types of weapons without effort, Skalds and Paladins can utilize their songs without effort and Minstrels can charm pets with a bit less effort. They made it easier for a whole lot of classes.

Just ban the damn macro usage, but don't use it as an argument for class nerfs.

So really your just quitting because your class was slightly nerfed.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:14 AM by Nauglamir

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:26 AM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Still lost at what skill it takes to hold a macro button down for four seconds, then release for four seconds for the purpose of breaking/bypassing the charm fail mechanics providing arguably unintended consistently held high-red/purp con pets at even low RR levels.

You arguably didn't read the data Leroy provided. The only data provided. Or you didn't understand it. And if you did, you have no clue about the gameplay implications.
But you go on and cry about failed mechanics that lead to unintended petlevels charmed at low levels.
In short, there is no high-red and especially not purple con pet charming at low levels.

And on the macro argument, once again - they allowed it, specifically.
So that SBs can switch 2 weapons without effort, Lighttanks can use shields / different dmg types of weapons without effort, Skalds and Paladins can utilize their songs without effort and Minstrels can charm pets with a bit less effort. They made it easier for a whole lot of classes.

Just ban the damn macro usage, but don't use it as an argument for class nerfs.
So really your just quitting because your class was slightly nerfed.

Apart from the fact that this is the most pointless post in this thread so far - how exactly did you deduct that, Holmes?

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:45 AM by gotwqqd

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:14 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:01 AM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:26 AM
You arguably didn't read the data Leroy provided. The only data provided. Or you didn't understand it. And if you did, you have no clue about the gameplay implications.
But you go on and cry about failed mechanics that lead to unintended petlevels charmed at low levels.
In short, there is no high-red and especially not purple con pet charming at low levels.

And on the macro argument, once again - they allowed it, specifically.
So that SBs can switch 2 weapons without effort, Lighttanks can use shields / different dmg types of weapons without effort, Skalds and Paladins can utilize their songs without effort and Minstrels can charm pets with a bit less effort. They made it easier for a whole lot of classes.

Just ban the damn macro usage, but don't use it as an argument for class nerfs.
So really your just quitting because your class was slightly nerfed.

Apart from the fact that this is the most pointless post in this thread so far - how exactly did you deduct that, Holmes?

Sorry seems like I quoted the wrong post

Wed 1 Apr 2020 8:18 AM by Lerox

Ah btw folks. Pet charming is so easy because the charm duration is bugged (or working as intended) on Phoenix.
One charm lasts 20 seconds instead for 10 seconds.

I am not sure if that is intended but since it is not an instrument skill like speed/pom/flutemezz/heal it should last 10 seconds only like it is written in the description.

Example for instruments skills; duration is longer due to it is influenced by instrument:
Speed: Duration: 6 seconds, really lasts for 12 seconds
Flute mezz: Duration: 29 seconds, really lasts for 58 seconds (no resists on target)

Instruments skills but instant and no instrument needed to use:
Abla song: Duration: 6 seconds, really lasts for 6 seconds
Charm song: Duration: 10 seconds, really lasts for 20 seconds.

That make it way easier to charm purple pets because basically you have to take care that you recharm between those 20 seconds and not 10 seconds only.
Thus it is really hard to outplay a minstrel because even in a 9 second stun he loses his pet only if he didn't recharm for 11 seconds before.

But since it will get changed it won't matter in the future.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 8:44 AM by Adolith

I think Minstrel is very strong in 1v1.

In a group oder Zerg setting, minstrel is fine imho. Why? You have to take the whole realm balance into account, not a single class.

For example, Minstrel is probably "better" than a skald in 8v8 when it comes to utility and disrupting the enemy. Clerics are super bad compared to healers and druids, lacking cc and/or pet.

DAOC is a game about groups, not about solos. Keep the feeble balance between the realms in mind!

Wed 1 Apr 2020 10:44 AM by Cadebrennus

Adolith wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 8:44 AM
I think Minstrel is very strong in 1v1.

In a group oder Zerg setting, minstrel is fine imho. Why? You have to take the whole realm balance into account, not a single class.

For example, Minstrel is probably "better" than a skald in 8v8 when it comes to utility and disrupting the enemy. Clerics are super bad compared to healers and druids, lacking cc and/or pet.

DAOC is a game about groups, not about solos. Keep the feeble balance between the realms in mind!

Regarding group or zerg play, Minstrels and Bards have similar roles as CC/interrupts, but a Bard is much easier to take down with a Tank than a Minstrel is. Minstrels are still unbalanced in group/zerg play.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:20 PM by sylvynyr

Lerox wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 8:18 AM
Ah btw folks. Pet charming is so easy because the charm duration is bugged (or working as intended) on Phoenix.
One charm lasts 20 seconds instead for 10 seconds.

I am not sure if that is intended but since it is not an instrument skill like speed/pom/flutemezz/heal it should last 10 seconds only like it is written in the description.

Example for instruments skills; duration is longer due to it is influenced by instrument:
Speed: Duration: 6 seconds, really lasts for 12 seconds
Flute mezz: Duration: 29 seconds, really lasts for 58 seconds (no resists on target)

Instruments skills but instant and no instrument needed to use:
Abla song: Duration: 6 seconds, really lasts for 6 seconds
Charm song: Duration: 10 seconds, really lasts for 20 seconds.

That make it way easier to charm purple pets because basically you have to take care that you recharm between those 20 seconds and not 10 seconds only.
Thus it is really hard to outplay a minstrel because even in a 9 second stun he loses his pet only if he didn't recharm for 11 seconds before.

But since it will get changed it won't matter in the future.

I believe, but could be wrong, that may be somewhat related to Instrument Quality...
MP = 12 second pulse
99qual = 11 second pulse
etc

or something to that effect.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:55 PM by sylvynyr

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 5:26 AM
You arguably didn't read the data Leroy provided. The only data provided. Or you didn't understand it. And if you did, you have no clue about the gameplay implications.
But you go on and cry about failed mechanics that lead to unintended petlevels charmed at low levels.
In short, there is no high-red and especially not purple con pet charming at low levels.

And on the macro argument, once again - they allowed it, specifically.
So that SBs can switch 2 weapons without effort, Lighttanks can use shields / different dmg types of weapons without effort, Skalds and Paladins can utilize their songs without effort and Minstrels can charm pets with a bit less effort. They made it easier for a whole lot of classes.

Just ban the damn macro usage, but don't use it as an argument for class nerfs.

And you can continue to cherry pick details and make (IMO) unrelated comparisons.
Using a macro to hit every chant or switching weapons != spamming charm to pass over charm fail mechanics != skill

http://stereopsis.com/keyrepeat/
My keyboard appears to repeat at 33ms intervals or 30 times per second, and while I cannot speak to what the game allows for input, I assume it is lower.
So in 4 seconds, I could theoretically get a maximum of 120 charm attempts at no cost (power, end, etc) in order to overcome the failure mechanic.
Even with a 10ms delay, that's ~93 attempts per 4 seconds.

Pretty good explanation of how Minstrel Charm works:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bardsofcamelot/jjoe-nitro-s-guide-to-minstrel-charm-t692.html

Charm Resists
=============

As you fight, your pet might resist a charm pulse. If this happens, and you don't do anything about it, the pet WILL turn on you at least long enough to have the monster loose all memory of aggression on your pet, AND your pet will forget it's attack disposition(will be set back to defensive/follow). To stop this, you need to re-assert the charm before the effect wears off. To do that, you quickly target your pet(by double-tapping F9, for example). Next, you press the charm key to CANCEL the charm effect. You will see a message in your system chat box that says "You cancel your effect." This does not actually release your pet, but rather just stops the pulse effect. The pet will still be charmed until that 9 1/2 seconds expires from the last successfull charm pulse. Remember, though, that since your pet has resisted one already, you have less than 4 1/2 left before the charm effect stops. Next, press your charm key again to re-assert charm. Since charm is a pulsing SHOUT, it will instantly apply a new pulse on your pet, restarting the 9 1/2 second timer, and the 5 second pulses. Now, it's important to watch for another resist message. If your pet resists again, you'll need to cancel the charm effect, and start it again. You might have to repeat this "doubletapping" until your pet doesn't resist any more. (Keep doing this even if your pet totally looses the charm effect and turns on you, as long as you are out of combat.) Next, you retarget your original monster, and get back to attacking it. You can do this by either clicking on it, or pressing F8 again, since odds are that it is the nearest enemy. Be careful though, in a thick fight, this might target the wrong enemy, which might break a mez or root.

IF you do this correctly, and QUICKLY, you will find you can maintain persistant control of even the most difficult to control pets. The best part is that since Charm is a SHOUT, with no recast timer, you can activate it and deactivate it again and again with no delay. It boils down to this- When you see a Charm Resist message, Target your pet, doubletap charm, check for another resist, and then retarget your enemy, and restart combat(just press a style button). If you see another resist, just doubletap charm again until you Don't see a resist. Difficult pets will resist several times in a row.

Also the formula for Charm pet levels (at least how it existed on official servers):
(inst skill * 0.33) + (character level * 0.66) = stable charm level
So you need to be at least rr10 (50+20 instruments skill) to stable hold level 56 pet (lowest red con @ 50), meaning ~95-100%.
To hold a lvl 61 (lowest purple con @ 50) pet stable (<5% resist) should/would require ~RR35

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:23 PM by Nauglamir

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 2:55 PM
Using a macro to hit every chant or switching weapons != spamming charm to pass over charm fail mechanics != skill

And you can continue to cherry pick details and make (IMO) unrelated comparisons.
Using a macro to hit every chant or switching weapons != spamming charm to pass over charm fail mechanics != skill

http://stereopsis.com/keyrepeat/
My keyboard appears to repeat at 33ms intervals or 30 times per second, and while I cannot speak to what the game allows for input, I assume it is lower.
So in 4 seconds, I could theoretically get a maximum of 120 charm attempts at no cost (power, end, etc) in order to overcome the failure mechanic.
Even with a 10ms delay, that's ~93 attempts per 4 seconds.

Phoenix QOL change : – Minstrels can only charm at most 3 times per second. This prevents minstrels from charming overly powerful creatures.

On - Off - On. Not more.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:57 PM by Gorefindle

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:29 AM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:21 AM
No, taking the skill out of the class and therefore lowering it's effectiveness when played at the highest skill level kills the class for me.

Still lost at what skill it takes to hold a macro button down for four seconds, then release for four seconds for the purpose of breaking/bypassing the charm fail mechanics providing arguably unintended consistently held high-red/purp con pets at even low RR levels.

That isn't what I do so I wouldn't know either.

Make the mechanics classic-like, don't nerf the class or do some shit perma-charm because things are not coded correctly.

For all the people who hate going against minstrels now, if you think it will be less annoying/difficult to have a ton of unskilled minstrels with perma charmed pets that are slightly less powerful, you're going to be in for an awakening. A slightly shittier horde of minstrels that is perfectly controlled is going to be a lot more difficult for you than a few people who can actually play minstrel correctly.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 4:39 PM by Isavyr

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:57 PM
For all the people who hate going against minstrels now, if you think it will be less annoying/difficult to have a ton of unskilled minstrels with perma charmed pets that are slightly less powerful, you're going to be in for an awakening. A slightly shittier horde of minstrels that is perfectly controlled is going to be a lot more difficult for you than a few people who can actually play minstrel correctly.

The difficulty of the pet isn't a problem as it's been nerfed appropriately. The problem is the class design--no real counter to minstrel, which is why they need to adjust the behavior of the pet. To re-iterate, if it were like Uthgard, dropping the pet would make the pet lose interest in its owner, and not attack its owner (as it does here). Therefore, this change would mean no more infinite purges by pet breaking minstrel's mezz/roots. They could also have CC effects remain through uncharming so that uncharming doesn't break their pet's CC. Regardless of what they do, I don't care about a horde of unskilled minstrels running around with permanent pets as almost all pet classes are difficult to kill solo anyway and aren't complaint-worthy. They simply need to be balanced with regards to CC and group-play, which they currently aren't.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:25 PM by Gorefindle

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 4:39 PM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:57 PM
For all the people who hate going against minstrels now, if you think it will be less annoying/difficult to have a ton of unskilled minstrels with perma charmed pets that are slightly less powerful, you're going to be in for an awakening. A slightly shittier horde of minstrels that is perfectly controlled is going to be a lot more difficult for you than a few people who can actually play minstrel correctly.

The difficulty of the pet isn't a problem as it's been nerfed appropriately. The problem is the class design--no real counter to minstrel, which is why they need to adjust the behavior of the pet. To re-iterate, if it were like Uthgard, dropping the pet would make the pet lose interest in its owner, and not attack its owner (as it does here). Therefore, this change would mean no more infinite purges by pet breaking minstrel's mezz/roots. They could also have CC effects remain through uncharming so that uncharming doesn't break their pet's CC. Regardless of what they do, I don't care about a horde of unskilled minstrels running around with permanent pets as almost all pet classes are difficult to kill solo anyway and aren't complaint-worthy. They simply need to be balanced with regards to CC and group-play, which they currently aren't.

Again, should make it like it was on classic. When I played a skald on classic I never even thought to cry about minstrels.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:36 PM by Isavyr

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:25 PM
Again, should make it like it was on classic. When I played a skald on classic I never even thought to cry about minstrels.

So let me get this straight--you want Minstrel to be even more powerful than now with stronger pets? And the reason you probably didn't cry is few even ran with pets and consequently didn't exploit the CC immunities that pet can provide. Here's an IGN suggestion on how to fix minstrels from January 2003:

Righteous_MLF wrote: Reduce Mana/Endurance Cost on DD shouts
* Add the ability to release a pet without it going agro unless it has been used in combat
* Fix agro Pet interrupt bug
* Add Evade III
* Allow 5 sec castable mez to be affected by dex
* Allow Minstrels to spec parry
.... (more posted)

Thronsen wrote: 5. Pets - Pet charming is so tedious and annoying few Minstrels even bother. Pets resist CONSISTENTLY regardless of con level. Each resist will break speed, erase agro, and get the pet hacking at you.

This shows how Minstrel players felt about their class--they didn't even realize the pet being aggressive upon release would break CC and be game-breaking! And others thought the pet was too tedious to run and consequently few ran with pets.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:46 PM by Killaloth

Regardless of the change implemented, please don't make the strongest class on Phoenix easier to play.

Most people like easy wins and no challenge, let's avoid a ministrel invasion in frontiers..

Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:08 PM by Gorefindle

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:36 PM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:25 PM
Again, should make it like it was on classic. When I played a skald on classic I never even thought to cry about minstrels.

So let me get this straight--you want Minstrel to be even more powerful than now with stronger pets? And the reason you probably didn't cry is few even ran with pets and consequently didn't exploit the CC immunities that pet can provide. Here's an IGN suggestion on how to fix minstrels from January 2003:

Righteous_MLF wrote: Reduce Mana/Endurance Cost on DD shouts
* Add the ability to release a pet without it going agro unless it has been used in combat
* Fix agro Pet interrupt bug
* Add Evade III
* Allow 5 sec castable mez to be affected by dex
* Allow Minstrels to spec parry
.... (more posted)

Thronsen wrote: 5. Pets - Pet charming is so tedious and annoying few Minstrels even bother. Pets resist CONSISTENTLY regardless of con level. Each resist will break speed, erase agro, and get the pet hacking at you.

This shows how Minstrel players felt about their class--they didn't even realize the pet being aggressive upon release would break CC and be game-breaking! And others thought the pet was too tedious to run and consequently few ran with pets.

Not concerned with what some random person wrote. And again, I would make it just exactly like classic if I could. I wouldn't water anything down or change mechanics 20 years after a game was released.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:16 PM by Isavyr

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:08 PM
Not concerned with what some random person wrote. And again, I would make it just exactly like classic if I could. I wouldn't water anything down or change mechanics 20 years after a game was released.

OK, fair enough. It's certainly an opinion you're entitled to, but discussion is unnecessary; you don't want any change, even if it improved the game, because its 20 years after the fact.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:21 PM by Gorefindle

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:16 PM
Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 7:08 PM
Not concerned with what some random person wrote. And again, I would make it just exactly like classic if I could. I wouldn't water anything down or change mechanics 20 years after a game was released.

OK, fair enough. It's certainly an opinion you're entitled to, but discussion is unnecessary; you don't want any change, even if it improved the game, because its 20 years after the fact.

I don't think I should have to clarify, but since you're putting words in my mouth I will. I think making bad design decisions after a game has been religiously played by so many after 20 years is a bad idea. If something is not working because it's not working how it worked during classic, then fix it. Don't go making changes that are terrible though after 20 years and destroy one of the best high skill cap classes that there has ever been in an MMO. Fix bugs fine, don't go adding nonsense.

I'm not a fan of harps either, that takes a lot of skill and planning out of the gameplay as well.

Wed 1 Apr 2020 11:17 PM by hefrocko2

did pets not sprint when chasing enemy players in classic, as well, or is that a bug/nerf here?

Thu 2 Apr 2020 1:52 PM by sylvynyr

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 3:23 PM
Phoenix QOL change : – Minstrels can only charm at most 3 times per second. This prevents minstrels from charming overly powerful creatures.

On - Off - On. Not more.

Thanks for that. Just tested and sure enough, it is working as you've pointed out; 3 triggers (on or off) per second.

[09:13:32] You cancel your effect.
[09:13:33] You cancel your effect.
[09:13:33] You cancel your effect.
[09:13:34] You cancel your effect.
[09:13:35] You cancel your effect.
[09:13:35] You cancel your effect.

Also tested charm with 99 and MP instruments which seems to indicate a 17.5 second timer (~13 second timer for 99qual) upon release/resist. The MP pulse itself would be derived at 9 seconds allowing for 27 triggers, or 13-14 recharm attempts per pulse with any success resetting the timer.

99qual
[09:18:32] You cancel your effect.
[09:18:46] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~14 seconds
[09:18:51] You cancel your effect.
[09:19:03] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~12 seconds
[09:19:29] You cancel your effect.
[09:19:43] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~14 seconds
[09:19:51] You cancel your effect.
[09:20:03] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~12 seconds

MP
[09:38:55] You cancel your effect.
[09:39:11] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~16 seconds
[09:39:23] You cancel your effect.
[09:39:42] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~19 seconds
[09:39:52] You cancel your effect.
[09:40:08] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~16 seconds
[09:42:26] You cancel your effect.
[09:42:44] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~18 seconds
[09:42:52] You cancel your effect.
[09:43:10] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~18 seconds
[09:43:12] You cancel your effect.
[09:43:31] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~19 seconds
[09:43:37] You cancel your effect.
[09:43:53] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~16 seconds
[09:43:55] You cancel your effect.
[09:44:14] You lose control of the swamp goo.
~19 seconds

Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:18 PM by Centenario

So you just press that key once every 12 seconds and you should have perfect ownership of any pet?

Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:42 PM by sylvynyr

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 2:18 PM
So you just press that key once every 12 seconds and you should have perfect ownership of any pet?

Not exactly. I believe it works out that you have 17.5 seconds to spam Charm to not be resisted which averages out to be around 27 chances to succeed and hold the pet for another 18 seconds.... I think.

And you press the key once to cancel Charm, then again to activate Charm, limited to 3 possible presses/activations per second.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:18 PM by joshisanonymous

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 3:21 PM
Again, for you.
purple pet = rr 10, as of now. Delete the possibility to charm them, no one will care, no one runs em anyways, they don't matter at all, just in your stories.
red pet on this server = lower dps than a blue ench pet due to numerous nerfs, not recastable but sturdier

In case you missed the video I posted and aren't just in denial still, here it is again: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

There are two RR3 minstrels there, one holding a purple pet and another a high red pet. Neither seems to lose control of those pets the throughout the fight. And "sturdier" is an understatement: it takes this group (which I assume everyone agrees is highly skilled) over a minute to deal with those pets, whereas it would take maybe 2.5 casts without debuffing to kill basically any non-juggernaut castable pet.

Again, I don't think the pet levels being charmed are really the problem (even though RR3s have basically never been able to manage red-purple pets on live, just as you think is the case here), it's that there's no reasonable way to lock them down, leaving them and their owners with unlimited purges. (And contrary to what you might think, CCing the pet, waiting for it to be released, then CCing it again before the minstrel has time to press charm again is not reasonable, nor is spending over a minute with your whole group trying to debuff nuke it down.)

Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:45 PM by Arkiluth

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:18 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Mar 2020 3:21 PM
Again, for you.
purple pet = rr 10, as of now. Delete the possibility to charm them, no one will care, no one runs em anyways, they don't matter at all, just in your stories.
red pet on this server = lower dps than a blue ench pet due to numerous nerfs, not recastable but sturdier

In case you missed the video I posted and aren't just in denial still, here it is again: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

There are two RR3 minstrels there, one holding a purple pet and another a high red pet. Neither seems to lose control of those pets the throughout the fight. And "sturdier" is an understatement: it takes this group (which I assume everyone agrees is highly skilled) over a minute to deal with those pets, whereas it would take maybe 2.5 casts without debuffing to kill basically any non-juggernaut castable pet.

Again, I don't think the pet levels being charmed are really the problem (even though RR3s have basically never been able to manage red-purple pets on live, just as you think is the case here), it's that there's no reasonable way to lock them down, leaving them and their owners with unlimited purges. (And contrary to what you might think, CCing the pet, waiting for it to be released, then CCing it again before the minstrel has time to press charm again is not reasonable, nor is spending over a minute with your whole group trying to debuff nuke it down.)

I saw the video and I call bullshit.

I mainly saw orange pets and low Lvl reds from higher-ranking minstrels. Where are the purples? Where is the minstrel perspective? You also failed to notice that the red pets were turning on the minstrel quite a bit.

In addition, any Minstrel worth their salt would know that at RR3 trying to maintain a red or purple pet is a sign of someone who truly does not understand their class and is spending MORE time spamming their charm, than actually being an effective minstrel. A minstrel spamming the charm and not doing much is a waste of a group slot, and this same minstrel would be massacred in a 1v1 fight. Not a good example of what the minstrel class is about, unfortunately.

For the record, I promote the idea of lowering what Lvl pets minstrels can charm, but again, your post is misleading and the video doesn't show what you are trying to prove. Your post shows the incorrect assumption from players who never played a minstrel and think Minstrels are EZ god mode.

Still... again... I do agree with the majority here that we should probably limit how high Lvl pet a minstrel can charm. I also don't believe minstrels should be made EASIER to play. it's a skill-based class, let's keep it that way and not dumb it down.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:34 PM by joshisanonymous

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:18 PM
In case you missed the video I posted and aren't just in denial still, here it is again: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

There are two RR3 minstrels there, one holding a purple pet and another a high red pet. Neither seems to lose control of those pets the throughout the fight. And "sturdier" is an understatement: it takes this group (which I assume everyone agrees is highly skilled) over a minute to deal with those pets, whereas it would take maybe 2.5 casts without debuffing to kill basically any non-juggernaut castable pet.

Again, I don't think the pet levels being charmed are really the problem (even though RR3s have basically never been able to manage red-purple pets on live, just as you think is the case here), it's that there's no reasonable way to lock them down, leaving them and their owners with unlimited purges. (And contrary to what you might think, CCing the pet, waiting for it to be released, then CCing it again before the minstrel has time to press charm again is not reasonable, nor is spending over a minute with your whole group trying to debuff nuke it down.)
I saw the video and I call bullshit.

I mainly saw orange pets and low Lvl reds from higher-ranking minstrels. Where are the purples? Where is the minstrel perspective? You also failed to notice that the red pets were turning on the minstrel quite a bit.

In addition, any Minstrel worth their salt would know that at RR3 trying to maintain a red or purple pet is a sign of someone who truly does not understand their class and is spending MORE time spamming their charm, than actually being an effective minstrel. A minstrel spamming the charm and not doing much is a waste of a group slot, and this same minstrel would be massacred in a 1v1 fight. Not a good example of what the minstrel class is about, unfortunately.

For the record, I promote the idea of lowering what Lvl pets minstrels can charm, but again, your post is misleading and the video doesn't show what you are trying to prove. Your post shows the incorrect assumption from players who never played a minstrel and think Minstrels are EZ god mode.

Still... again... I do agree with the majority here that we should probably limit how high Lvl pet a minstrel can charm. I also don't believe minstrels should be made EASIER to play. it's a skill-based class, let's keep it that way and not dumb it down.

Dude, open your damn eyes. The only "high-ranking" minstrel is the RR6, and he's holding the OJ pet (0:53). At 1:03, you can see the RR3 with the purple levian (who is, by the way, pushing the Hibs and flute mezzing while sicking that pet on an enemy, not "spending more time spamming their charm than actually being an effective minstrel"

. At 1:19 you can see the RR3 with the red levian.

Also, find me the time stamp where they're losing control of those pets. I cannot see a single example in that fight.

Simply put, you're in denial, just like every other minstrel here. I'm literally showing you video proof and you're just responding by claiming that the video proof shows the opposite.

(BTW, I had an RR6 minstrel on Live around 2005, and I used pets all the time, but not reds and absolutely not purples because they resisted too much, which doesn't seem to be an issue on Phoenix. So I'm not some rando who's never played a minstrel.)

Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:48 PM by Nauglamir

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:34 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:18 PM
In case you missed the video I posted and aren't just in denial still, here it is again: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

There are two RR3 minstrels there, one holding a purple pet and another a high red pet. Neither seems to lose control of those pets the throughout the fight. And "sturdier" is an understatement: it takes this group (which I assume everyone agrees is highly skilled) over a minute to deal with those pets, whereas it would take maybe 2.5 casts without debuffing to kill basically any non-juggernaut castable pet.

Again, I don't think the pet levels being charmed are really the problem (even though RR3s have basically never been able to manage red-purple pets on live, just as you think is the case here), it's that there's no reasonable way to lock them down, leaving them and their owners with unlimited purges. (And contrary to what you might think, CCing the pet, waiting for it to be released, then CCing it again before the minstrel has time to press charm again is not reasonable, nor is spending over a minute with your whole group trying to debuff nuke it down.)
I saw the video and I call bullshit.

I mainly saw orange pets and low Lvl reds from higher-ranking minstrels. Where are the purples? Where is the minstrel perspective? You also failed to notice that the red pets were turning on the minstrel quite a bit.

In addition, any Minstrel worth their salt would know that at RR3 trying to maintain a red or purple pet is a sign of someone who truly does not understand their class and is spending MORE time spamming their charm, than actually being an effective minstrel. A minstrel spamming the charm and not doing much is a waste of a group slot, and this same minstrel would be massacred in a 1v1 fight. Not a good example of what the minstrel class is about, unfortunately.

For the record, I promote the idea of lowering what Lvl pets minstrels can charm, but again, your post is misleading and the video doesn't show what you are trying to prove. Your post shows the incorrect assumption from players who never played a minstrel and think Minstrels are EZ god mode.

Still... again... I do agree with the majority here that we should probably limit how high Lvl pet a minstrel can charm. I also don't believe minstrels should be made EASIER to play. it's a skill-based class, let's keep it that way and not dumb it down.

Dude, open your damn eyes. The only "high-ranking" minstrel is the RR6, and he's holding the OJ pet (0:53). At 1:03, you can see the RR3 with the purple levian (who is, by the way, pushing the Hibs and flute mezzing while sicking that pet on an enemy, not "spending more time spamming their charm than actually being an effective minstrel". At 1:19 you can see the RR3 with the red levian.

Also, find me the time stamp where they're losing control of those pets. I cannot see a single example in that fight.

Simply put, you're in denial, just like every other minstrel here. I'm literally showing you video proof and you're just responding by claiming that the video proof shows the opposite.

(BTW, I had an RR6 minstrel on Live around 2005, and I used pets all the time, but not reds and absolutely not purples because they resisted too much, which doesn't seem to be an issue on Phoenix. So I'm not some rando who's never played a minstrel.)

RR4
lvl 61 pet: 100% resistrate

RR5:
lvl 61 pet: 90% resistrate

RR6+7:
lvl 61 pet: 80% resistrate

RR8+9:
lvl 61 pet: 60% resistrate

That's how it is nowadays. Your video is from August and shows a shitty Minstrel in a rvr zone that looses his purple pet 11 seconds after enemy contact - no clue how charm resist rates were back then. Right now, it's the above. And with a 100% resistrate, you can't charm a pet. You hardly can handle one with a 60% resistrate, if you wanna be any good.

Anything else you want us to know regarding the minstrel? So I can go on with full denial?

Thu 2 Apr 2020 6:00 PM by joshisanonymous

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:48 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:34 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
I saw the video and I call bullshit.

I mainly saw orange pets and low Lvl reds from higher-ranking minstrels. Where are the purples? Where is the minstrel perspective? You also failed to notice that the red pets were turning on the minstrel quite a bit.

In addition, any Minstrel worth their salt would know that at RR3 trying to maintain a red or purple pet is a sign of someone who truly does not understand their class and is spending MORE time spamming their charm, than actually being an effective minstrel. A minstrel spamming the charm and not doing much is a waste of a group slot, and this same minstrel would be massacred in a 1v1 fight. Not a good example of what the minstrel class is about, unfortunately.

For the record, I promote the idea of lowering what Lvl pets minstrels can charm, but again, your post is misleading and the video doesn't show what you are trying to prove. Your post shows the incorrect assumption from players who never played a minstrel and think Minstrels are EZ god mode.

Still... again... I do agree with the majority here that we should probably limit how high Lvl pet a minstrel can charm. I also don't believe minstrels should be made EASIER to play. it's a skill-based class, let's keep it that way and not dumb it down.

Dude, open your damn eyes. The only "high-ranking" minstrel is the RR6, and he's holding the OJ pet (0:53). At 1:03, you can see the RR3 with the purple levian (who is, by the way, pushing the Hibs and flute mezzing while sicking that pet on an enemy, not "spending more time spamming their charm than actually being an effective minstrel". At 1:19 you can see the RR3 with the red levian.

Also, find me the time stamp where they're losing control of those pets. I cannot see a single example in that fight.

Simply put, you're in denial, just like every other minstrel here. I'm literally showing you video proof and you're just responding by claiming that the video proof shows the opposite.

(BTW, I had an RR6 minstrel on Live around 2005, and I used pets all the time, but not reds and absolutely not purples because they resisted too much, which doesn't seem to be an issue on Phoenix. So I'm not some rando who's never played a minstrel.)

RR4
lvl 61 pet: 100% resistrate

RR5:
lvl 61 pet: 90% resistrate

RR6+7:
lvl 61 pet: 80% resistrate

RR8+9:
lvl 61 pet: 60% resistrate

That's how it is nowadays. Your video is from August and shows a shitty Minstrel in a rvr zone that looses his purple pet 11 seconds after enemy contact - no clue how charm resist rates were back then. Right now, it's the above. And with a 100% resistrate, you can't charm a pet. You hardly can handle one with a 60% resistrate, if you wanna be any good.

Anything else you want us to know regarding the minstrel? So I can go on with full denial?

FFS, yes you are in FULL denial.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 6:59 PM by sylvynyr

To be fair, this appears to be the timeline:

2018-8-??
The mentioned video in Old Frontiers

2018-8-27 Monday
minstrel charming for high level mobs changed

2018-9-1 Saturday
Minstrels can only charm at most 3 times per second (configurable and testing might increase / decrease that)

2019-6-25 Tuesday
The frontier has been switched over to New Frontiers

Thu 2 Apr 2020 7:23 PM by sylvynyr

But also to be fair, assuming the following are tested and valid:

13-14 recharm attempts per 9 second pulse
~6 attempts per 4 seconds (based on the previously described macro)

RR4
lvl 61 pet: 100% resistrate
Should be impossible

RR5:
lvl 61 pet: 90% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row = .9^6 = 53.1% to fail all 6 attempts, or 46.9% chance to succeed at least once

RR6+7:
lvl 61 pet: 80% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row = .8^6 = 26.2% to fail all 6 attempts, or 73.8% chance to succeed at least once

RR8+9:
lvl 61 pet: 60% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row= .6^6 = 5% to fail all 6 attempts, or 95% chance to succeed at least once

Thu 2 Apr 2020 7:31 PM by Isavyr

Denial aside, I can say from experience that RR3 charming reds is no problem without removing focus from other tasks. 60% resist rate is nothing, even without macros.

I have a third idea (these ideas could be combined with #1 or #2, but negligible by itself):

#1: Dismissing pet no longer affects pet CC. Mobs in CC remain in CC, charmed or uncharmed.
#2: Losing pet charm results in no threat. Pet goes home. Minstrel and allies are no longer automatically broken from CC by the pet and instead must engage the pet to get aggro behavior.

Additional idea:
#3: Confusion on charmed pet causes owner to lose control of it temporarily (until next pulse). This is best if Minstrel pulse becomes like the Mentalist (casted, non-spammable).

Skill-ceiling would actually go up with #1 or #2, so the minstrel lobby can no longer stand on the "but muh skill level" argument. Still a lot of creativity to be had in removing the pet's and groupmate's CC.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 7:33 PM by Centenario

If Minstrel charm is lvl 41, and I get Mastery of Focus 3 for 4 RA points.
Then it becomes lvl 50.
Then at RR3 I should have 50+11+2=63 level of spell

Thu 2 Apr 2020 8:25 PM by sylvynyr

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 7:33 PM
If Minstrel charm is lvl 41, and I get Mastery of Focus 3 for 4 RA points.
Then it becomes lvl 50.
Then at RR3 I should have 50+11+2=63 level of spell

That is definitely an interesting point. It does sound like MoF works on the first cast of the Charm spell, but has been mentioned in a relatively recent Grab Bag that MoF does NOT affect subsequent pulses. However, if spamming Charm, then all casts are considered "initial" and utilizing MoF. If so, Mentalists shafted.
https://darkageofcamelot.com/article/friday-grab-bag-08172018

Is there any available data covering Charm resist rates with and without MoF along with subsequent pulse resist rates?

Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:00 PM by Arkiluth

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:34 PM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 4:18 PM
In case you missed the video I posted and aren't just in denial still, here it is again: https://youtu.be/BiJfEy2d7W0?t=50

There are two RR3 minstrels there, one holding a purple pet and another a high red pet. Neither seems to lose control of those pets the throughout the fight. And "sturdier" is an understatement: it takes this group (which I assume everyone agrees is highly skilled) over a minute to deal with those pets, whereas it would take maybe 2.5 casts without debuffing to kill basically any non-juggernaut castable pet.

Again, I don't think the pet levels being charmed are really the problem (even though RR3s have basically never been able to manage red-purple pets on live, just as you think is the case here), it's that there's no reasonable way to lock them down, leaving them and their owners with unlimited purges. (And contrary to what you might think, CCing the pet, waiting for it to be released, then CCing it again before the minstrel has time to press charm again is not reasonable, nor is spending over a minute with your whole group trying to debuff nuke it down.)
I saw the video and I call bullshit.

I mainly saw orange pets and low Lvl reds from higher-ranking minstrels. Where are the purples? Where is the minstrel perspective? You also failed to notice that the red pets were turning on the minstrel quite a bit.

In addition, any Minstrel worth their salt would know that at RR3 trying to maintain a red or purple pet is a sign of someone who truly does not understand their class and is spending MORE time spamming their charm, than actually being an effective minstrel. A minstrel spamming the charm and not doing much is a waste of a group slot, and this same minstrel would be massacred in a 1v1 fight. Not a good example of what the minstrel class is about, unfortunately.

For the record, I promote the idea of lowering what Lvl pets minstrels can charm, but again, your post is misleading and the video doesn't show what you are trying to prove. Your post shows the incorrect assumption from players who never played a minstrel and think Minstrels are EZ god mode.

Still... again... I do agree with the majority here that we should probably limit how high Lvl pet a minstrel can charm. I also don't believe minstrels should be made EASIER to play. it's a skill-based class, let's keep it that way and not dumb it down.

Dude, open your damn eyes. The only "high-ranking" minstrel is the RR6, and he's holding the OJ pet (0:53). At 1:03, you can see the RR3 with the purple levian (who is, by the way, pushing the Hibs and flute mezzing while sicking that pet on an enemy, not "spending more time spamming their charm than actually being an effective minstrel". At 1:19 you can see the RR3 with the red levian.

Also, find me the time stamp where they're losing control of those pets. I cannot see a single example in that fight.

Simply put, you're in denial, just like every other minstrel here. I'm literally showing you video proof and you're just responding by claiming that the video proof shows the opposite.

(BTW, I had an RR6 minstrel on Live around 2005, and I used pets all the time, but not reds and absolutely not purples because they resisted too much, which doesn't seem to be an issue on Phoenix. So I'm not some rando who's never played a minstrel.)

I'm not sure if you've been reading, but I support the idea of capping what Lvl pets minstrels can get.

And again, any minstrel of low rank who plays more spamming charm than being more effective (oh so he mezzed someone, then started spamming again) is NOT minstrel skill and does NOT prove the point you are trying to make. I that say because I am only assuming you know how long a pet stays charmed after a successful tick. Again, no offense to the mini in the video, but he is a waste of a player slot in a group. And 1v1 he would be destroyed. He is not playing to his potential. And if the numbers others here are posting is true, that RR3 minstrel you speak of DID NOT charm a purple pet. To be honest, I remember trying to charm a purple at low rank and was not able to. So maybe you're just full of nonsense, trolling, and are angry about losing to a very strong 1v1 class.

My initial call of bullshit on your "facts" and "proof" still stands. Despite me agreeing to cap how high minstrel pets should be. (don't say I'm biased because for a while I have maintained the idea of keeping Minstrels difficult to play and a slight nerf to them, but what you are saying or claiming is just nonsense).

And if you think that a low RR minstrel maintaining a red pet is somehow related to class skill or class strength, then I will state it simply: You do not know how to play a minstrel and you do not understand why only an idiot would keep a red pet at low ranks and why it's to a group's disadvantage to letting their minstrel do that. You are just here to get a class (that you do not know how to beat) nerfed.

P.S - Everyone who cries about nerfing minstrels somehow had a "high RR" one "on live". Go figure, especially when the things they say or claim is incorrect and not a representation of the class.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 11:08 PM by Strikejk

Minstrels use the current pet mechanic to make the pet remove their mezz/root, will this be still possible with the new mechanic?

Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:29 AM by joshisanonymous

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:00 PM
I'm not sure if you've been reading, but I support the idea of capping what Lvl pets minstrels can get.

And again, any minstrel of low rank who plays more spamming charm than being more effective (oh so he mezzed someone, then started spamming again) is NOT minstrel skill and does NOT prove the point you are trying to make. I that say because I am only assuming you know how long a pet stays charmed after a successful tick. Again, no offense to the mini in the video, but he is a waste of a player slot in a group. And 1v1 he would be destroyed. He is not playing to his potential. And if the numbers others here are posting is true, that RR3 minstrel you speak of DID NOT charm a purple pet. To be honest, I remember trying to charm a purple at low rank and was not able to. So maybe you're just full of nonsense, trolling, and are angry about losing to a very strong 1v1 class.

My initial call of bullshit on your "facts" and "proof" still stands. Despite me agreeing to cap how high minstrel pets should be. (don't say I'm biased because for a while I have maintained the idea of keeping Minstrels difficult to play and a slight nerf to them, but what you are saying or claiming is just nonsense).

And if you think that a low RR minstrel maintaining a red pet is somehow related to class skill or class strength, then I will state it simply: You do not know how to play a minstrel and you do not understand why only an idiot would keep a red pet at low ranks and why it's to a group's disadvantage to letting their minstrel do that. You are just here to get a class (that you do not know how to beat) nerfed.

P.S - Everyone who cries about nerfing minstrels somehow had a "high RR" one "on live". Go figure, especially when the things they say or claim is incorrect and not a representation of the class.

Here's a video of my very real RR6 minstrel on Live that I took just the other day: https://youtu.be/vEaxRu0xCcA

What I'm saying is that low RR minstrels here regularly charm red and purple mobs, which Nauglamir has claimed requires being RR10 over and over again. The video shows that low RR minstrels definitely do charm red and purple pets. What's nonsense is that you're still saying that the minstrel in the video who is very clearly charming a purple pet is not actually charming a purple pet. I gave you a freaking time stamp to look at if you're too lazy to watch carefully; there's no excuse for your nonsense. Again, you're in denial.

It's like the type of people who choose to play minstrels can't accept that the class is powerful (and in some ways over the top) because then they'd have to admit that they're not simply superstar players who never lose fights. At least you yourself come close to admitting it, but your admittance is couched in all sorts of insults and denial.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:35 AM by Nauglamir

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 6:00 PM
Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:48 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 5:34 PM
Dude, open your damn eyes. The only "high-ranking" minstrel is the RR6, and he's holding the OJ pet (0:53). At 1:03, you can see the RR3 with the purple levian (who is, by the way, pushing the Hibs and flute mezzing while sicking that pet on an enemy, not "spending more time spamming their charm than actually being an effective minstrel". At 1:19 you can see the RR3 with the red levian.

Also, find me the time stamp where they're losing control of those pets. I cannot see a single example in that fight.

Simply put, you're in denial, just like every other minstrel here. I'm literally showing you video proof and you're just responding by claiming that the video proof shows the opposite.

(BTW, I had an RR6 minstrel on Live around 2005, and I used pets all the time, but not reds and absolutely not purples because they resisted too much, which doesn't seem to be an issue on Phoenix. So I'm not some rando who's never played a minstrel.)

RR4
lvl 61 pet: 100% resistrate

RR5:
lvl 61 pet: 90% resistrate

RR6+7:
lvl 61 pet: 80% resistrate

RR8+9:
lvl 61 pet: 60% resistrate

That's how it is nowadays. Your video is from August and shows a shitty Minstrel in a rvr zone that looses his purple pet 11 seconds after enemy contact - no clue how charm resist rates were back then. Right now, it's the above. And with a 100% resistrate, you can't charm a pet. You hardly can handle one with a 60% resistrate, if you wanna be any good.

Anything else you want us to know regarding the minstrel? So I can go on with full denial?

FFS, yes you are in FULL denial.

Man .. what are you talking about? Those numbers are true. You are simply wrong with what you say, for sure I don't let that stay.

And when I read that sylvynyr says that a 60% resist rate is not removing focus from other tasks, talking out of personal experience - he's either wrong as well or just way better than the rest of us. Because in solo, smallmen and grp-rvr against really good players it will potentially screw you over, as you are overburdened with other things to do and will loose your pet at some point, potentially. And you can't have that. It's past the sweet spot of what's feasible. Or, as Leroy puts it - it's a pain in the ass.

In case you regularly do 8vs8, smallmen and solo rvr on a minstrel and run with a 60%+ resistrate pet all the time, successfully, I apologize upfront, it's clearly us active minstrels that are wrong.

Finishing up - if developers decrease the petlevel that's charmable, so be it. If they dump the charm mechanic all together, life goes on.
But you guys just say things that are simply not backed up by experience or knowledge of the current environment.
And those things get stuck in people's heads. You'r a bit like Fox News - i don't think that's ok.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:42 AM by Nauglamir

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:29 AM
Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:00 PM
I'm not sure if you've been reading, but I support the idea of capping what Lvl pets minstrels can get.

And again, any minstrel of low rank who plays more spamming charm than being more effective (oh so he mezzed someone, then started spamming again) is NOT minstrel skill and does NOT prove the point you are trying to make. I that say because I am only assuming you know how long a pet stays charmed after a successful tick. Again, no offense to the mini in the video, but he is a waste of a player slot in a group. And 1v1 he would be destroyed. He is not playing to his potential. And if the numbers others here are posting is true, that RR3 minstrel you speak of DID NOT charm a purple pet. To be honest, I remember trying to charm a purple at low rank and was not able to. So maybe you're just full of nonsense, trolling, and are angry about losing to a very strong 1v1 class.

My initial call of bullshit on your "facts" and "proof" still stands. Despite me agreeing to cap how high minstrel pets should be. (don't say I'm biased because for a while I have maintained the idea of keeping Minstrels difficult to play and a slight nerf to them, but what you are saying or claiming is just nonsense).

And if you think that a low RR minstrel maintaining a red pet is somehow related to class skill or class strength, then I will state it simply: You do not know how to play a minstrel and you do not understand why only an idiot would keep a red pet at low ranks and why it's to a group's disadvantage to letting their minstrel do that. You are just here to get a class (that you do not know how to beat) nerfed.

P.S - Everyone who cries about nerfing minstrels somehow had a "high RR" one "on live". Go figure, especially when the things they say or claim is incorrect and not a representation of the class.

Here's a video of my very real RR6 minstrel on Live that I took just the other day: https://youtu.be/vEaxRu0xCcA

What I'm saying is that low RR minstrels here regularly charm red and purple mobs, which Nauglamir has claimed requires being RR10 over and over again. The video shows that low RR minstrels definitely do charm red and purple pets. What's nonsense is that you're still saying that the minstrel in the video who is very clearly charming a purple pet is not actually charming a purple pet. I gave you a freaking time stamp to look at if you're too lazy to watch carefully; there's no excuse for your nonsense. Again, you're in denial.

It's like the type of people who choose to play minstrels can't accept that the class is powerful (and in some ways over the top) because then they'd have to admit that they're not simply superstar players who never lose fights. At least you yourself come close to admitting it, but your admittance is couched in all sorts of insults and denial.

So you showing a video of a untemped rr6 Minstrel that can't charm a demon type mob on the live server - tells us what, on the topic of charming purple pets?
And your other video is of as much relevance, as it shows a fight that was done a) before the resistrates I showed you were implemented b) before the 3x/second charm rule was implemented. No relevance at all. None.

And stop your denial talk, please, we'r not at an aa meeting.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:06 AM by gotwqqd

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 7:23 PM
But also to be fair, assuming the following are tested and valid:

13-14 recharm attempts per 9 second pulse
~6 attempts per 4 seconds (based on the previously described macro)

RR4
lvl 61 pet: 100% resistrate
Should be impossible

RR5:
lvl 61 pet: 90% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row = .9^6 = 53.1% to fail all 6 attempts, or 46.9% chance to succeed at least once

RR6+7:
lvl 61 pet: 80% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row = .8^6 = 26.2% to fail all 6 attempts, or 73.8% chance to succeed at least once

RR8+9:
lvl 61 pet: 60% resistrate
Chance of failing 6 attempts in a row= .6^6 = 5% to fail all 6 attempts, or 95% chance to succeed at least once

Does this apply with Phoenix’s “fix” of long strings of resists ?
I think the probability of 6 fails in a row are much lower

Fri 3 Apr 2020 3:54 AM by joshisanonymous

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 6:59 PM
To be fair, this appears to be the timeline:

2018-8-??
The mentioned video in Old Frontiers

2018-8-27 Monday
minstrel charming for high level mobs changed

2018-9-1 Saturday
Minstrels can only charm at most 3 times per second (configurable and testing might increase / decrease that)

2019-6-25 Tuesday
The frontier has been switched over to New Frontiers

Regardless, I still regularly run into RR3 minstrels holding red pets, probably because the probability of successfully recharming during the duration of the current charm is still relatively high despite the resist rate.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 4:20 AM by joshisanonymous

Nauglamir wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 1:42 AM
So you showing a video of a untemped rr6 Minstrel that can't charm a demon type mob on the live server - tells us what, on the topic of charming purple pets?
And your other video is of as much relevance, as it shows a fight that was done a) before the resistrates I showed you were implemented b) before the 3x/second charm rule was implemented. No relevance at all. None.

And stop your denial talk, please, we'r not at an aa meeting.

If you follow along, Skreemz accused me of lying about the existence of my minstrel. FYI, that temp is from 2005, and I logged onto him for the first time in 15 years to make that video showing a bug on Phoenix that is yet another minstrel boon here: minstrels can't charm demons on Live (i.e., everything in DF) but they can here.

Nauglamir wrote: And when I read that sylvynyr says that a 60% resist rate is not removing focus from other tasks, talking out of personal experience - he's either wrong as well or just way better than the rest of us.

You can't even figure out who said what but you're the one who really knows what's going on.

Anyway, Isavyr's claim that 60% is nothing depends on what you think nothing is. Even just two attempts at recharming gives your a 74% chance of success when the resist rate is 60%.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 4:23 AM by Ceen

Leave the charm as it is.
This is not live daoc and we still have a decent amount of players.
If I interpolate we end up at broadsword level in about one year

Fri 3 Apr 2020 7:07 PM by Quik

My personal opinion for minstrel "FIX" is a couple things:

1) Make the pet charm only useable once every 10 seconds. If it succeeds they have the pet for 10 seconds, if it doesn't the pet simply loses charm and agro and tries to return to its home. No more spamming the charm button guaranteeing a purple pet just because you can mash the button 10 times. The fail rate could be the following:
Yellow - instant success
OJ - 50%
Red - 60%
purple - 90%

2) Make pet so it never breaks CC. That has been broken since day 1 of DAoC and needs to be fixed asap.

Minnie has so much freakin utility it will still be needed in every group without having an OP pet. Also, stop with the absolutely stupid argument that Minnie should be left alone for those with a higher skill ceiling. This game is about the players and players should be able to play any class they want. NO CLASS SHOULD BE DESIGNED FOR THOSE WITH BETTER SKILL. Your skill will always make you better no matter the class, but a class that is only good in the hands of a skilled player?? Damn, talk about deliberately leaving people out with less skill. Give me one valid reason why an incredibly skilled player should be the only one that can play a Minnie decently, when with just a few changes lots of people could enjoy them including those with physical issues that stop them from muscle memory classes like Minnie.

The other argument for the pet could be this:

Just limit pet to yellow and make it permanent like sorc. There is no valid reason that a Minnie should be able to charm an oj pet or above...period. It is not a pet class and personally I don't see any reason that a Minnie should have a higher con pet then a true pet class.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 9:00 PM by Isavyr

Quik wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 7:07 PM
Give me one valid reason why an incredibly skilled player should be the only one that can play a Minnie decently, when with just a few changes lots of people could enjoy them including those with physical issues that stop them from muscle memory classes like Minnie.

This argument is a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Some of the ideas in this thread would even raise the skill ceiling of minstrel (including your #2 idea!)--but none of these "keep high skill ceiling" players want these changes--contradiction much?

Fri 3 Apr 2020 9:11 PM by sylvynyr

Some other interesting information...

So patch 1.65 was released on October 8, 2003
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.65
And patch 1.66 was released on October 28, 2003
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.66

So checking the Wayback machine on October 13, 2003
https://web.archive.org/web/20031013133219/http://www.camelotherald.com:80/spells/line.php?line=950
Charm (Song)
Compels creature to fight and die for the caster. This spell has a chance (based on the caster's specialization versus the creature's level) of breaking each "tick". The level of the creature charmed is 70%-110% of the caster's level (based on the caster's specialization). Only one song can be sung at a time.

Cast - Duration - Recast
0s (Pulse) - 10s - 5s

So Charm should have a 5 second recast timer?

And Patch 1.47 specifically addressed it:
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.47
March 7, 2002
- The Minstrel charm shout was incorrectly set to have no cast timer. It has been updated to have a short (5 second) recast timer. This is to prevent an exploit whereby one could acquire a purple pet.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 3:19 PM by alex200k

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 9:11 PM
And Patch 1.47 specifically addressed it:
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.47
March 7, 2002
- The Minstrel charm shout was incorrectly set to have no cast timer. It has been updated to have a short (5 second) recast timer. This is to prevent an exploit whereby one could acquire a purple pet.

hah

Sat 4 Apr 2020 3:53 PM by MrWolf

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 9:11 PM
And Patch 1.47 specifically addressed it:
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.47
March 7, 2002
- The Minstrel charm shout was incorrectly set to have no cast timer. It has been updated to have a short (5 second) recast timer. This is to prevent an exploit whereby one could acquire a purple pet.

looool

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:06 PM by

gruenesschaf

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 9:11 PM
Cast - Duration - Recast
0s (Pulse) - 10s - 5s

So Charm should have a 5 second recast timer?

According to the patch notes yes, however, afaik this change was never done at least I never found patch notes that removed this delay while at the same time there are a multitude of primarily toa videos showing minstrels running around with level 7x minotaurs and constantly spamming charm to hold them.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:11 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sunday will see a bugfix that is not because of this change but affects pet charm: the change sometime near the end of last year that made moc no longer affect charm also made charm get the weapon quality bonus as if it were a song (100% instruments for songs = 100% more duration), this song flag will be removed tomorrow resulting in each charm application only lasting for the delve amount.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:13 PM by sylvynyr

Also as someone else pointed out, Minstrels should not be able to charm Demons (DF). Mentalist and Sorcerers should though. Searching through all patch notes from 1.46 through 1.89 makes no mention of ever adding Demons to Minstrel Charm spells unlike the specific mentions for Sorcerers and Mentalists below.

I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.

Minstrel
* 06 Captivating Melodies – Charms Humanoids.
* 13 Enchanting Melodies – Charms Humanoids and Animals.
* 20 Attracting Melodies – Charms Humanoids, Animals and Insects.
* 27 Pleasurable Melodies – Charms Humanoids, Animals, Insects and Magical Creatures.
* 34 Enticing Melodies – Charms Humanoids, Animals, Insects and Magical Creatures. (reduces resistance)
* 41 Alluring Melodies – Charms Humanoids, Animals, Insects and Magical Creatures. (reduces resistance)

Sorcerer
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.59
Sorcerer Changes
- Sorcerers can now charm any monster type. This should strengthen their Mind spec considerably, and facilitate better charming in dungeons (where many monsters are undead).

Mentalist
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.62
Mentalist Changes
- Ghostly Enemy now adds undead to the list of monster types that can be charmed, and Dream Enemy can charm any type of creature.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:33 PM by Quik

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:11 PM
Sunday will see a bugfix that is not because of this change but affects pet charm: the change sometime near the end of last year that made moc no longer affect charm also made charm get the weapon quality bonus as if it were a song (100% instruments for songs = 100% more duration), this song flag will be removed tomorrow resulting in each charm application only lasting for the delve amount.

So I'm not sure I understand...

Your change is that you are maybe cutting the duration of the minstrel charm in half? Which really means nothing because they can just spam the charm button with a macro as much as they want unless I am missing something?

No changes to the level of the pet or fail rate or anything? Doesn't really sound like a change to me of any real degree.

The 5 second rule seems like a very good idea and it was stated in the patch that it was an exploit that made it possible to spam charm, just do that change maybe?

Minnie is so over the top it seems like you are just changing a few super minor things to show you are trying to balance it, but in reality it doesn't look like there is any type of balancing being implemented.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:41 PM by

gruenesschaf

Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:33 PM
So I'm not sure I understand...

Your change is that you are maybe cutting the duration of the minstrel charm in half? Which really means nothing because they can just spam the charm button with a macro as much as they want unless I am missing something?

No changes to the level of the pet or fail rate or anything? Doesn't really sound like a change to me of any real degree.

The 5 second rule seems like a very good idea and it was stated in the patch that it was an exploit that made it possible to spam charm, just do that change maybe?

Minnie is so over the top it seems like you are just changing a few super minor things to show you are trying to balance it, but in reality it doesn't look like there is any type of balancing being implemented.

Like I said, this bugfix is unrelated to this change here and just something that was found while looking into charm.

Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:55 PM by Quik

Oh thank goodness...I thought this was the fix my bad

Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:39 PM by Ardri

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:41 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:33 PM
So I'm not sure I understand...

Your change is that you are maybe cutting the duration of the minstrel charm in half? Which really means nothing because they can just spam the charm button with a macro as much as they want unless I am missing something?

No changes to the level of the pet or fail rate or anything? Doesn't really sound like a change to me of any real degree.

The 5 second rule seems like a very good idea and it was stated in the patch that it was an exploit that made it possible to spam charm, just do that change maybe?

Minnie is so over the top it seems like you are just changing a few super minor things to show you are trying to balance it, but in reality it doesn't look like there is any type of balancing being implemented.

Like I said, this bugfix is unrelated to this change here and just something that was found while looking into charm.

So if charm is not a song...why can't i play charm and speed at the same time right now? BEFORE the "minstrel/pet charm" patch is in?

Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:45 PM by sylvynyr

Ardri wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 4:39 PM
So if charm is not a song...why can't i play charm and speed at the same time right now? BEFORE the "minstrel/pet charm" patch is in?

If I understand it correctly, Charm is a Chant similar to Skalds/Paladins who also do not receive any quality/condition duration bonuses as opposed to Songs which require instruments, all of which uses a Pulse and you can only have one Pulse active while other Pulses are fading providing overlap.

The benefit is that since Charm is a Chant, it does not require Minstrels keep an Instrument equipped allowing them to equip weapon/shield to melee fight along side their pet and maintain control.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:19 PM by iridia

I read 21 Pages and i still don't know the reason of this changes.
70% of people that are writing here arguing about that the minstrel Is UNccable if they've a pet, the minstrel Is that, yes Is unccable but not Immortal like you thought It Is.
Trying Changing the minstrel mechanics After more than 1 year of Phoenix and After 20 years of daoc in general it's incredible and i think it's not a solution.
Like GM said today minstrel bugfix Is not regarding the argument of this post, but really @gms u've to explain Better why and what fixes you put in game like you're doing with this [Q2 2020] posts.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:36 PM by Quik

iridia wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
Trying Changing the minstrel mechanics After more than 1 year of Phoenix and After 20 years of daoc in general it's incredible and i think it's not a solution.

A bug is a bug, and an exploit is an exploit regardless of how long it has been in the game.

If you truly think it is fair for any class to have a free way to get rid of CC and not even have to use purge then I get you arguing against it.

BUT if there is anything in the game, regardless how long it has been in the game, that needs to be changed then it doesn't matter if it has been on Pheonix for over a year or on live for 20 years, it still needs to be fixed.

I'm sorry if people disagree with me or get mad at me for having my own opinion, but 2 things about a minstrel SCREAM unfair advantage whether you are skilled or not:

1) There is NO WAY ANY class should be able to have a red/purple pet...EVER. OJ is too much I feel but red and purple is stupid. I don't care if it has always been this way, it is STUPID. Yellow should be the cap.

2) NO CLASS should have a free way to get rid of CC without using purge. I really don't get this argument. It has always been this way again is not a valid argument. A bug/exploit that was never fixed does not mean it shouldn't be fixed now. Someone even posted a patch msg where they state it is a bug, and the fact it didn't get fixed doesn't tell me it shouldn't, it tells me someone was incompetent and just never did it.

I am playing Albion and I STILL feel Minnie needs to be hit hard on this.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 6:49 PM by sylvynyr

iridia wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
After more than 1 year of Phoenix and After 20 years of daoc in general it's incredible and i think it's not a solution.

Well on Live Minstrel pets are permanent and capped to level 50, so not entirely sure this argument really holds any water (NOT saying this is what Phoenix should do). Also, DAOC has quite the list of patch notes from 1.06 (beta) through 1.35 (~launch) through 1.126 (live), so what argument is there about not fixing things again?
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.06
https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/patch-notes

This thread consists of facts, opinions, rants, and suggestions in order to improve the state of gameplay on Phoenix while trying to hold true to the atmosphere and sense of pre-TOA DAOC. Phoenix is an emulation of DAOC so thinking that when it released this server had everything right is pretty outrageously optimistic; there have been an enormous amount of bug fixes through its lifetime and there will most likely and hopefully continue to be more. This latest pulse length fix comes after "fixing" another bug which led to an unforeseen issue which is to be expected somewhat with such a complex asymmetric game filled with so many gameplay mechanics.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:27 PM by Gorefindle

Live is not even the same game and there's a reason most people don't play it.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:38 PM by Quik

Gorefindle wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:27 PM
Live is not even the same game and there's a reason most people don't play it.

Which in now way changes the fact that some things should still be used from live.

Common sense is a simple and easy rule to follow, the problem here is people like a class like Minstrel and cry that it isn't OP even when the evidence showing it IS OP is so obvious.

I don't want a lot of stuff live has, but I would love a few things from there and this is one of them.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:53 PM by jwalker

iridia wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
I read 21 Pages and i still don't know the reason of this changes.
70% of people that are writing here arguing about that the minstrel Is UNccable if they've a pet, the minstrel Is that, yes Is unccable but not Immortal like you thought It Is.
Trying Changing the minstrel mechanics After more than 1 year of Phoenix and After 20 years of daoc in general it's incredible and i think it's not a solution.
Like GM said today minstrel bugfix Is not regarding the argument of this post, but really @gms u've to explain Better why and what fixes you put in game like you're doing with this [Q2 2020] posts.

So you should have read that on phoenix the charm song is NOT like it was 20 years on live

in fact it is heavily wrong and therefore overperforms as have been shown in this thread. On classic live (with the patch that was the basis for phoenix) we had

charm lasts 11 seconds, pulses every 5 seconds, and has a 5 second recast, costed endurcance and could only charm humanoids, magic creatures, animals and insects. (so no demons, elements and undead)

on phoenix currentle we have
charm lasts for 20 seconds, pulses very 5 seconds and has no recast timer, doesn't cost endurance and can charm every mob

So longer, easier to use/hold higher pets, less drawback and more flexible ... yeah let's go back to the version we had for 20 years plz!

Sun 5 Apr 2020 11:24 PM by Gorefindle

Exactly, so people need to quit trying to change a class that's been fine for 20 yr.

Sun 5 Apr 2020 11:25 PM by Gorefindle

jwalker wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:53 PM
iridia wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:19 PM
I read 21 Pages and i still don't know the reason of this changes.
70% of people that are writing here arguing about that the minstrel Is UNccable if they've a pet, the minstrel Is that, yes Is unccable but not Immortal like you thought It Is.
Trying Changing the minstrel mechanics After more than 1 year of Phoenix and After 20 years of daoc in general it's incredible and i think it's not a solution.
Like GM said today minstrel bugfix Is not regarding the argument of this post, but really @gms u've to explain Better why and what fixes you put in game like you're doing with this [Q2 2020] posts.

So you should have read that on phoenix the charm song is NOT like it was 20 years on live

in fact it is heavily wrong and therefore overperforms as have been shown in this thread. On classic live (with the patch that was the basis for phoenix) we had

charm lasts 11 seconds, pulses every 5 seconds, and has a 5 second recast, costed endurcance and could only charm humanoids, magic creatures, animals and insects. (so no demons, elements and undead)

on phoenix currentle we have
charm lasts for 20 seconds, pulses very 5 seconds and has no recast timer, doesn't cost endurance and can charm every mob

So longer, easier to use/hold higher pets, less drawback and more flexible ... yeah let's go back to the version we had for 20 years plz!

I'm not personally against fixing bugs, I'm against changing how the class works, like permacharm. How lame. Also, harps are lame.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:59 AM by Caemma

WTB FIX: https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/521d1d2c-0deb-4521-9ca0-11db61ba0f61

2 years, still the same.. why?
Intended?

Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:59 AM by Swymyn

The only real problem (power imbalance) with Minstrels is them being able to insta purge their pet. You can't mez them, root them, castable snare them, or poison snare them with any success. Everyone of these cc I've seen insta-cleared somehow by the Minst. That's all that needs a change.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 12:57 PM by Caemma

Swymyn wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:59 AM
The only real problem (power imbalance) with Minstrels is them being able to insta purge their pet. You can't mez them, root them, castable snare them, or poison snare them with any success. Everyone of these cc I've seen insta-cleared somehow by the Minst. That's all that needs a change.

Fix confusion on charmed pets and you will be able to do that

Mon 6 Apr 2020 5:19 PM by sylvynyr

Swymyn wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 11:59 AM
The only real problem (power imbalance) with Minstrels is them being able to insta purge their pet. You can't mez them, root them, castable snare them, or poison snare them with any success. Everyone of these cc I've seen insta-cleared somehow by the Minst. That's all that needs a change.

Poison based snare should not be breakable outside of Purge and surviving the duration...

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:25 PM by teiloh

jwalker wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 8:53 PM
charm lasts 11 seconds, pulses every 5 seconds, and has a 5 second recast, costed endurcance and could only charm humanoids, magic creatures, animals and insects. (so no demons, elements and undead)

Endurance cost and charm limits were removed long before 1.62.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:30 PM by teiloh

Considering these huge nerfs to Minstrel pets that have gone on already, I don't think a change limiting Minstrels should be implemented unless many of these are addressed:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477&p=101639#p101639
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12432

IMO, if you're going with a perma charm, split chants and songs so that one of each can be played at a time. Then make it so pets so pets of a certain level never resist (e.g. 110% for 50+11 Instruments). In exchange, CC should maintain itself on the pet through release. Also, there shouldn't be a timer on charm because having it break your speed while traveling due to unlucky resist streaks (even on relatively low level pets) would be extremely obnoxious. If anything, make it so the resist makes the pet stall or start walking back instead of attacking the minstrel, that would "solve" the non-problem of Minstrels breaking their own CC that people are complaining about.

That said the pet is essential to the Minstrel as a class performing up to par in RvR so be careful with any changes.

Skalds should also lose Determination if release/recharm is being removed. CC reduction for them would be far too big of a relative advantage with Minstrel pet anti-CC functions limited.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:34 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Apr 2020 5:36 PM
1) There is NO WAY ANY class should be able to have a red/purple pet...EVER. OJ is too much I feel but red and purple is stupid. I don't care if it has always been this way, it is STUPID. Yellow should be the cap.

2) NO CLASS should have a free way to get rid of CC without using purge. I really don't get this argument. It has always been this way again is not a valid argument. A bug/exploit that was never fixed does not mean it shouldn't be fixed now. Someone even posted a patch msg where they state it is a bug, and the fact it didn't get fixed doesn't tell me it shouldn't, it tells me someone was incompetent and just never did it.

I am playing Albion and I STILL feel Minnie needs to be hit hard on this.

Where do your magic rules come from? A red Minstrel pet does less DPS than two bonedancer subpets and that's not even counting the commander. The Minstrel pet is strong because the rest of the class is garbage.

"2) NO CLASS should have a free way to get rid of CC without using purge."

It's balanced considering the rest of the class.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:40 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 7:07 PM
Minnie has so much freakin utility it will still be needed in every group without having an OP pet.

Just limit pet to yellow and make it permanent like sorc. There is no valid reason that a Minnie should be able to charm an oj pet or above...period. It is not a pet class and personally I don't see any reason that a Minnie should have a higher con pet then a true pet class.

On live when Sorcs got Speed 5 almost nobody grouped Minstrels again, unless they wanted SoS. They do NOT have a lot of utility. Mez and stun is not "a lot of utility." If it were, Mentalism Mentalists would be gods since they can mez better, stun better and heal to boot.

And yes, Minstrels are THE pet class, they have been defined by their pets for the longest time. They have strong pets because the rest of Instruments is mediocre at best.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:42 PM by teiloh

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Apr 2020 4:13 PM
Also as someone else pointed out, Minstrels should not be able to charm Demons (DF). Mentalist and Sorcerers should though. Searching through all patch notes from 1.46 through 1.89 makes no mention of ever adding Demons to Minstrel Charm spells unlike the specific mentions for Sorcerers and Mentalists below.

Expanding the charm list was a custom Phoenix change that was given in exchange for the level caps and charm/second limit.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:52 PM by teiloh

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 4:39 PM
The difficulty of the pet isn't a problem as it's been nerfed appropriately. The problem is the class design--no real counter to minstrel, which is why they need to adjust the behavior of the pet. To re-iterate, if it were like Uthgard, dropping the pet would make the pet lose interest in its owner, and not attack its owner (as it does here). Therefore, this change would mean no more infinite purges by pet breaking minstrel's mezz/roots. They could also have CC effects remain through uncharming so that uncharming doesn't break their pet's CC. Regardless of what they do, I don't care about a horde of unskilled minstrels running around with permanent pets as almost all pet classes are difficult to kill solo anyway and aren't complaint-worthy. They simply need to be balanced with regards to CC and group-play, which they currently aren't.

Uthgard is not relevant, this is how Minstrel pets worked on live.

Simple changes:

1. Separate songs away from chants. Bards would be able to toss up a resist chant and Minstrels could run a song and ablative if they wanted.

2. Have a percent of level cap based on total skill at which no resists are possible for charmed pet:

50+11 = 54
+13 = 55
+15 = 56
+17 = 57
+19 + 58
+21 + 59

3. CC does not drop when a pet is released

4. Pet doesn't attack owner when charm breaks, but is dazed for a few moments and walks back home later

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:56 PM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 10:44 AM
Regarding group or zerg play, Minstrels and Bards have similar roles as CC/interrupts, but a Bard is much easier to take down with a Tank than a Minstrel is. Minstrels are still unbalanced in group/zerg play.

You would know this as a RR4 Ranger, how? Lol @ minstrels being unbalanced in zerg play. Here's a hint, Bard spamming AOE Mez with some Amnesia's thrown in is about 10x as effective as a Minstrel at disrupting people in zergs.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:57 PM by Quik

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:52 PM
3. CC does not drop when a pet is released

4. Pet doesn't attack owner when charm breaks, but is dazed for a few moments and walks back home later

These 2 things are the most important and both of these would totally be fine. Free CC break is just broken for any class and no one should have it.

Charm should break the minute the Minstrel gets mezzed/stunned.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:01 PM by teiloh

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:57 PM
These 2 things are the most important and both of these would totally be fine. Free CC break is just broken for any class and no one should have it.

Charm should break the minute the Minstrel gets mezzed/stunned.

It's not free. Almost all of the power of the Instruments line is in the pet. "Free" would be stoicism, which doesn't require any sort of management or upkeep.

If the Minstrel pet suffers the limitations of a pulse charm (i.e. throttled range and losing the pet frequently) it's reasonable to give it upsides as well.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:06 PM by sylvynyr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:42 PM
Expanding the charm list was a custom Phoenix change that was given in exchange for the level caps and charm/second limit.

Reference? Also, what level caps?

teiloh wrote: And yes, Minstrels are THE pet class, they have been defined by their pets for the longest time. They have strong pets because the rest of Instruments is mediocre at best.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.46
Minstrel/Mentalist Charm Overview

The Minstrel/Mentalist charm ability does not work the way other charms work, nor is it intended to. This charm is intended not as a "pet" ability in the sense that all other pet abilities in the game are intended, but as an added ability that can be used for assistance during group or solo combat, or during emergency situations when charming a foe may work to the advantage of the group or solo player.
....
It is advised to not risk charming orange, red or purple monsters unless you believe the situation warrants this emergency action and only if you are prepared to accept the potential penalties involved with doing so.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:09 PM by teiloh

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:06 PM
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.46
Minstrel/Mentalist Charm Overview

The Minstrel/Mentalist charm ability does not work the way other charms work, nor is it intended to. This charm is intended not as a "pet" ability in the sense that all other pet abilities in the game are intended, but as an added ability that can be used for assistance during group or solo combat, or during emergency situations when charming a foe may work to the advantage of the group or solo player.
....
It is advised to not risk charming orange, red or purple monsters unless you believe the situation warrants this emergency action and only if you are prepared to accept the potential penalties involved with doing so.

1.46 was years ago. Mythic made specific changes to go along with their evolving perception of what the class should do.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:50 PM by daytonchambers

Arkiluth wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:00 PM
any minstrel of low rank who plays more spamming charm than being more effective (oh so he mezzed someone, then started spamming again) is NOT minstrel skill and does NOT prove the point you are trying to make. I that say because I am only assuming you know how long a pet stays charmed after a successful tick. Again, no offense to the mini in the video, but he is a waste of a player slot in a group. And 1v1 he would be destroyed. He is not playing to his potential. And if the numbers others here are posting is true, that RR3 minstrel you speak of DID NOT charm a purple pet. To be honest, I remember trying to charm a purple at low rank and was not able to. So maybe you're just full of nonsense, trolling, and are angry about losing to a very strong 1v1 class.

Skreems, the guy who totally doesn't cheat and run cheese classes to exploit every advantage possible.

Womp Womp

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:51 PM by Cadebrennus

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 8:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 10:44 AM
Regarding group or zerg play, Minstrels and Bards have similar roles as CC/interrupts, but a Bard is much easier to take down with a Tank than a Minstrel is. Minstrels are still unbalanced in group/zerg play.

You would know this as a RR4 Ranger, how? Lol @ minstrels being unbalanced in zerg play. Here's a hint, Bard spamming AOE Mez with some Amnesia's thrown in is about 10x as effective as a Minstrel at disrupting people in zergs.

Sure, because DAOC started with Phoenix. You do know Live existed since 2001, right? And that people have played multiple realms since then, right?

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:54 PM by daytonchambers

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:51 PM
Sure, because DAOC started with Phoenix. You do know Live existed since 2001, right? And that people have played multiple realms since then, right?

Any excuse to try and discredit someones point of view. It takes a whopping 5 seconds to click your sig link and see you in RvR doing ranger stuff before Phoenix was even a thing.

Bitches gonna bitch, tho.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:57 PM by Cadebrennus

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:51 PM
Sure, because DAOC started with Phoenix. You do know Live existed since 2001, right? And that people have played multiple realms since then, right?

Any excuse to try and discredit someones point of view. It takes a whopping 5 seconds to click your sig link and see you in RvR doing ranger stuff before Phoenix was even a thing.

Bitches gonna bitch, tho.

Thanks man. People try to discredit others whose first priority isn't Phoenix, it's life. Oh well. Let them clutch their pearls and fall into their fainting couches. The rest of us have real lives to live.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:06 PM by Quik

I don't know anyone playing but I will say this...

You do not need to be high RR to be able to do math and testing in game on various things. I know a lot of high RR players that honestly don't know crap on how to play other than how to follow the zerg, and I know players that have started fresh in an MMO and only got halfway through the game and already understand the mechanics better than the max lvl players.

I love how people just assume that only being RR4 means you must not know anything...

Again, I don't know either side but damn, you and the other guy must have a serious hard on for Cadebrennus because you follow him to every post I see him reply in.

I don't agree with him on everything, but his posts do tend to be well thought out and his ranger breakdown really hit spot on when I was researching what archer I wanted to play, so he does have a good grasp of the game. instead of just saying "YOUR ONLY RR4 GRRR GROWL ARGH!!!!" how about you just throw facts back and have a decent argument.

Everyone will disagree with someone on here about something at sometime, but I have also agreed with almost everyone here on something at sometime.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:39 PM by sylvynyr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:09 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:06 PM
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.46
Minstrel/Mentalist Charm Overview

The Minstrel/Mentalist charm ability does not work the way other charms work, nor is it intended to. This charm is intended not as a "pet" ability in the sense that all other pet abilities in the game are intended, but as an added ability that can be used for assistance during group or solo combat, or during emergency situations when charming a foe may work to the advantage of the group or solo player.
....
It is advised to not risk charming orange, red or purple monsters unless you believe the situation warrants this emergency action and only if you are prepared to accept the potential penalties involved with doing so.

1.46 was years ago. Mythic made specific changes to go along with their evolving perception of what the class should do.

1.46 and 1.65 were around 1.5 years apart, so in the context of Phoenix, relatively recent. It's also quite amusing that without any reference you purport to understand Mythic's intention that is quite literally spelled out above. To what specific changes do you refer? The calling out of an exploit to acquire purple con pets? The removal of charm flags on many many mobs and NPCs? The removal of Charm against enemy players? Increasing aggro generation by charmed healing pets? The level 50 limited charmed pets?

Most "specific changes" seem to have been made to continually reduce the effectiveness of Charm over the years.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:41 PM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 9:57 PM
Thanks man. People try to discredit others whose first priority isn't Phoenix, it's life. Oh well. Let them clutch their pearls and fall into their fainting couches. The rest of us have real lives to live.

Your live "experience" was even more limited. You don't have an argument to discredit btw, it's just more of the "WAAAAH I wants it nerfeds : (((((" with 0 substantiation or reasoning.

Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:41 PM by teiloh

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:39 PM
Most "specific changes" seem to have been made to continually reduce the effectiveness of Charm over the years.

Cherry-picking. Back in those 1.46 notes, charm was flute-cast. They made it instant, and spammable, and removed the end cost for a reason.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:45 AM by sylvynyr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Apr 2020 10:41 PM
Cherry-picking. Back in those 1.46 notes, charm was flute-cast. They made it instant, and spammable, and removed the end cost for a reason.

Actually, it was changed to remove the Instrument requirement in that same 1.46 patch that they described their intention and then in the next Patch 1.47, it was declared to have accidentally made Minstrel Charm spammable and was supposed to receive a 5 second recast to prevent an exploit (their words).

Tue 7 Apr 2020 11:12 AM by teiloh

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:45 AM
Actually, it was changed to remove the Instrument requirement in that same 1.46 patch that they described their intention and then in the next Patch 1.47, it was declared to have accidentally made Minstrel Charm spammable and was supposed to receive a 5 second recast to prevent an exploit (their words).

They removed the timer or didn't implement it for years. It's a feature, not a bug.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:43 PM by

Uthred

I cleaned up the mess a bit. Pls stop the insults and stay on topic. Thank you very much.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 1:59 PM by sylvynyr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 11:12 AM
They removed the timer or didn't implement it for years. It's a feature, not a bug.

Announce a change providing a specific reason for said change.
Result doesn't match announcement.
Sounds like a bug.

Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:30 PM by lsuchadk

This is the kind of stuff that killed the game in the first place. Stop jacking with stuff, leave it alone. Once you start going down this path, you will screw everything up. You are going to end up with a realm with no speed and that will be devastating to this server. Once Alb goes down, they will all go down. How soon we all forget what crushed the game many years ago. It was devs listening to the whining and crying, which they listened to, which resulted in more whining and crying.

IF THERE IS ANYTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED IN THIS GAME IT IS THAT ANIMISTS SHROOMS CAN CAST THROUGH WALLS!!!!! THAT IS UNBALANCED!!!!

Tue 7 Apr 2020 4:12 PM by Quik

lsuchadk wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Apr 2020 3:30 PM
This is the kind of stuff that killed the game in the first place.

This is not even remotely the kind of stuff that killed the game in the first place.

ToA + WoW is what killed this game, not any changes to a few classes.

I don't necessarily agree this needs changed like they are doing it, but plz don't act like this is the kind of thing that killed DAoC.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 4:43 AM by Aenect

Minstrels being able to charm a pet with a one-time cast sounds like a good change, rather than having to twist between speed and pet charm. I do think they should retain the ability to charm red pets, but maybe the range of pet control is slightly reduced for anything past yellow con. I think purple pets not being possible to charm is fair.

Just my two cents

Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:19 AM by Agent7

I did not read the entire thread. I do read a lot of complaints and confusion on /advice, so..
My opinion is this: The mini/menty charms were originally designed to have upkeep compared to the sorc charm. The trade off is a higher level pet. I really don't agree with the idea of this high maintenance charm because it simply introduces needless complexity. The reason why mini has become powerful is because people were able to figure out how to keep the high maintenance charm while able to do all the other stuff (songs, mez, melee). And then there's the ability to "demez/deroot" oneself. The simple solution is the just give the mini/mentys the sorc charm.
I can see people getting upset if we were to do this. I believe some of them will even quit the game. They have gotten accustomed to having the power and versatility of soloing/smallman with the mini. But it will be healthier for the server in the long run.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:31 AM by Agent7

When I said mini/mentys should just get the sorc charm, I meant to add it should have a 110% level, meaning it would have a max level of 55.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:42 AM by Razur Ur

I saw yesterday enough mintrels which handle red bargast rly good!!!

Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM by hefrocko2

most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight. For those who don't play minstrels, understand that the only 99% of minstrels can effectively play the class is by having an oj pet with a 30% or less resist rate. This let's the minstrel utilize other utilities, like melee, without focusing all their attention on keeping the pet charmed.

The minstrels that everyone is crying and whining about are the 1% who've been playing the class for 20 years and are able to hold a red/purple pet while doing other things... this is not a reason to nerf the class.

The recent "fix" to charm duration is even more reason to not nerf the class because the charm expires so rapidly it's hard for the above average player to hold a pet anymore if they also want to melee... again, don't nerf the class because 1% are exceptionally good at it.

If anything, pets need to be able to sprint again in RVR combat. Any smart player just sprints away from a pet and the minstrel will lose charm due to range... sprint needs to be restored.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 7:20 PM by Nunki

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM
most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight. For those who don't play minstrels, understand that the only 99% of minstrels can effectively play the class is by having an oj pet with a 30% or less resist rate. This let's the minstrel utilize other utilities, like melee, without focusing all their attention on keeping the pet charmed.

The minstrels that everyone is crying and whining about are the 1% who've been playing the class for 20 years and are able to hold a red/purple pet while doing other things... this is not a reason to nerf the class.

The recent "fix" to charm duration is even more reason to not nerf the class because the charm expires so rapidly it's hard for the above average player to hold a pet anymore if they also want to melee... again, don't nerf the class because 1% are exceptionally good at it.

If anything, pets need to be able to sprint again in RVR combat. Any smart player just sprints away from a pet and the minstrel will lose charm due to range... sprint needs to be restored.

Many if not most Minstrels run around with a red Barguest.
Probably due to the increased usage of AHK/macros to auto target and re-charm, which makes the whole 1% skillbased feature much easier for the average player.
This wasn't a thing back in the days.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:20 PM by Noashakra

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM
most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight.

lol you just have to spam a macro on your mouse. On live, it was another story. I never saw a ministrel lose control of his pet here. Never. The macro makes what was a challenge a few could do (keep a red/purple pet in a fight) something every average player can achieve and give them the illusion they are top players...

Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:25 PM by hefrocko2

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:20 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM
most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight.

lol you just have to spam a macro on your mouse. On live, it was another story. I never saw a ministrel lose control of his pet here. Never. The macro makes what was a challenge a few could do (keep a red/purple pet in a fight) something every average player can achieve and give them the illusion they are top players...

you obviously have never played a minstrel. You're just one of the bad players who lost a fight and wants to cry about it.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:26 PM by joshisanonymous

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM
most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight. For those who don't play minstrels, understand that the only 99% of minstrels can effectively play the class is by having an oj pet with a 30% or less resist rate. This let's the minstrel utilize other utilities, like melee, without focusing all their attention on keeping the pet charmed.

The minstrels that everyone is crying and whining about are the 1% who've been playing the class for 20 years and are able to hold a red/purple pet while doing other things... this is not a reason to nerf the class.

The recent "fix" to charm duration is even more reason to not nerf the class because the charm expires so rapidly it's hard for the above average player to hold a pet anymore if they also want to melee... again, don't nerf the class because 1% are exceptionally good at it.

If anything, pets need to be able to sprint again in RVR combat. Any smart player just sprints away from a pet and the minstrel will lose charm due to range... sprint needs to be restored.

Weird that it's so easy to find RR3sy runing with red pets then and that minstrels currently make up literally 25% of the top 100 soloers in Alb this week.

Yes, the class is more difficult to learn than most, but it's not some tiny fraction of the population that's finding success with them. And if people playing them just admitted more readily that they play a powerful solo/smallman class, their arguments might hold more weight. Instead we get denial from minstrels that the class is capable of doing anything whatsoever.

Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:27 PM by Noashakra

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:25 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:20 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 5:55 PM
most people complaining about minstrels have never played one. charming a high red/purple makes it near impossible to do anything else since the resist rate is 80-90% and people easily kite away from them making the minstrel lose the pet if they want to stay engaged in the fight.

lol you just have to spam a macro on your mouse. On live, it was another story. I never saw a ministrel lose control of his pet here. Never. The macro makes what was a challenge a few could do (keep a red/purple pet in a fight) something every average player can achieve and give them the illusion they are top players...

you obviously have never played a minstrel. You're just one of the bad players who lost a fight and wants to cry about it.

Yeah sure, and if the people who complain about the nerf would be half as good as they are, they would see no problem to have an orange pet instead of a red one.
Keep your delusion on and think you are a high skilled player, while using a spam macro to keep your precious pet.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 5:44 AM by gotwqqd

Keeping high level pets is not hard to do
As long as you know the trick, it’s rather simple.
Learn the mechanic and reap rewards

Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 5:44 AM
Keeping high level pets is not hard to do
As long as you know the trick, it’s rather simple.
Learn the mechanic and reap rewards

Another guy who doesn't play ministrel /s
Any scrub with a program can keep the red pet under control. That's why you see rr3 in DF keeping a purple pet under control with more than 90% resist farming the stairs.
That is NOT was was planned in the original game. Even high skilled ranked player were losing the control of their purple pet in fights because macros were not allowed. This was a huge drawback, it was the other side of the coin of having purple pet.
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:07 AM by teiloh

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:27 PM
Yeah sure, and if the people who complain about the nerf would be half as good as they are, they would see no problem to have an orange pet instead of a red one.
Keep your delusion on and think you are a high skilled player, while using a spam macro to keep your precious pet.

It's the principle. If we surrender to every little whine of skill-less Mids and Hibs crying about Minstrels, the server will turn into a balance trash heap quite soon.

Why do you cry and moan so much about 5% increased defenses and +3 DPS? Does the color red trigger you? Would you rather Minstrels have blue and green BD or SM pets?

Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 AM by teiloh

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

If you ever played the Minstrel class you'd know the problem with recharming in fights is having to target your pet, and then retarget your enemy, or losing it because it runs out of range/los, or because you get stunned.

No one has problems spamming a button, but it's still 10x the work of your entire class.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:10 AM by teiloh

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:26 PM
Weird that it's so easy to find RR3sy runing with red pets then and that minstrels currently make up literally 25% of the top 100 soloers in Alb this week.

Yes, the class is more difficult to learn than most, but it's not some tiny fraction of the population that's finding success with them. And if people playing them just admitted more readily that they play a powerful solo/smallman class, their arguments might hold more weight. Instead we get denial from minstrels that the class is capable of doing anything whatsoever.

Top 100 soloers as in RP per person or solo kills? Minstrels have speed, of course they're going to find lots of kills. Without looking I can guess Skalds are up there too. Nerf Skalds?

Yep, Skalds are 48/250 top soloers, 19.8%. Guess Skalds are OP too? Shadowblades are over 50%. Does that mean they're twice as OP as Minstrels?

Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:34 AM by Noashakra

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

If you ever played the Minstrel class you'd know the problem with recharming in fights is having to target your pet, and then retarget your enemy, or losing it because it runs out of range/los, or because you get stunned.

No one has problems spamming a button, but it's still 10x the work of your entire class.

Hahahaha suuure. Man it's good that you self admited that what made the ministrel have a real skill gap is gone on this server.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:08 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 5:44 AM
Keeping high level pets is not hard to do
As long as you know the trick, it’s rather simple.
Learn the mechanic and reap rewards

Another guy who doesn't play ministrel /s
Any scrub with a program can keep the red pet under control. That's why you see rr3 in DF keeping a purple pet under control with more than 90% resist farming the stairs.
That is NOT was was planned in the original game. Even high skilled ranked player were losing the control of their purple pet in fights because macros were not allowed. This was a huge drawback, it was the other side of the coin of having purple pet.
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

Are you clueless?
What part of my post contradicts anything you say)

Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:09 AM by gotwqqd

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

If you ever played the Minstrel class you'd know the problem with recharming in fights is having to target your pet, and then retarget your enemy, or losing it because it runs out of range/los, or because you get stunned.

No one has problems spamming a button, but it's still 10x the work of your entire class.

All easily done with one button macro

Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:44 AM by Nauglamir

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:09 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.

If you ever played the Minstrel class you'd know the problem with recharming in fights is having to target your pet, and then retarget your enemy, or losing it because it runs out of range/los, or because you get stunned.

No one has problems spamming a button, but it's still 10x the work of your entire class.
All easily done with one button macro

No, it's not.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 10:28 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:08 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:43 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 5:44 AM
Keeping high level pets is not hard to do
As long as you know the trick, it’s rather simple.
Learn the mechanic and reap rewards

Another guy who doesn't play ministrel /s
Any scrub with a program can keep the red pet under control. That's why you see rr3 in DF keeping a purple pet under control with more than 90% resist farming the stairs.
That is NOT was was planned in the original game. Even high skilled ranked player were losing the control of their purple pet in fights because macros were not allowed. This was a huge drawback, it was the other side of the coin of having purple pet.
The ministrel lobby will try to make you think that spamming a key is part of the high ceiling high reward mechanic of the ministrel. Make a video where you keep your red/purple pet without a macro in combat, I am waiting.
Are you clueless?
What part of my post contradicts anything you say)

I wrote /s, it was sarcam and I was actually agreeing with you.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 2:11 PM by teiloh

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:34 AM
Hahahaha suuure. Man it's good that you self admited that what made the ministrel have a real skill gap is gone on this server.

Literally no one said what you thought they were saying.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:20 PM by joshisanonymous

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:10 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:26 PM
Weird that it's so easy to find RR3sy runing with red pets then and that minstrels currently make up literally 25% of the top 100 soloers in Alb this week.

Yes, the class is more difficult to learn than most, but it's not some tiny fraction of the population that's finding success with them. And if people playing them just admitted more readily that they play a powerful solo/smallman class, their arguments might hold more weight. Instead we get denial from minstrels that the class is capable of doing anything whatsoever.

Top 100 soloers as in RP per person or solo kills? Minstrels have speed, of course they're going to find lots of kills. Without looking I can guess Skalds are up there too. Nerf Skalds?

Yep, Skalds are 48/250 top soloers, 19.8%. Guess Skalds are OP too? Shadowblades are over 50%. Does that mean they're twice as OP as Minstrels?

Man, you are so ridiculous. Nothing you just said diminishes what I said.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:32 PM by Noashakra

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:10 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Apr 2020 10:26 PM
Weird that it's so easy to find RR3sy runing with red pets then and that minstrels currently make up literally 25% of the top 100 soloers in Alb this week.

Yes, the class is more difficult to learn than most, but it's not some tiny fraction of the population that's finding success with them. And if people playing them just admitted more readily that they play a powerful solo/smallman class, their arguments might hold more weight. Instead we get denial from minstrels that the class is capable of doing anything whatsoever.

Top 100 soloers as in RP per person or solo kills? Minstrels have speed, of course they're going to find lots of kills. Without looking I can guess Skalds are up there too. Nerf Skalds?

Yep, Skalds are 48/250 top soloers, 19.8%. Guess Skalds are OP too? Shadowblades are over 50%. Does that mean they're twice as OP as Minstrels?

Man, you are so ridiculous. Nothing you just said diminishes what I said.

it's a typical case of dunning kruger effect.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:52 PM by teiloh

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:20 PM
Man, you are so ridiculous. Nothing you just said diminishes what I said.

By taking your argument apart? It literally does diminish what you said. If you think judging a class' power based on their representation of top weekly soloers within a realm, then you must also think SB and Skalds are overpowered.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:49 PM by joshisanonymous

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:52 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:20 PM
Man, you are so ridiculous. Nothing you just said diminishes what I said.

By taking your argument apart? It literally does diminish what you said. If you think judging a class' power based on their representation of top weekly soloers within a realm, then you must also think SB and Skalds are overpowered.

You're so insecure that you think when someone claims that minstrels can only be played well by a select few players and I show that tons of players are having success with them, you have to turn that into me saying that any class that people have success with is overpowered.

SBs and skalds do very well solo, and I've literally never seen an SB or skald claim otherwise. But minstrels have this inferiority complex where they insist that their class is not only not powerful but is actually underpowered, like you do. The only explanation for their overwhelming popularity and effectiveness, if we're to assume this underpowered minstrel argument, is that there are a huge number of extraordinarily talented players who all flock to this class more than any other class, which is nonsense.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 PM by teiloh

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:49 PM
You're so insecure that you think when someone claims that minstrels can only be played well by a select few players and I show that tons of players are having success with them, you have to turn that into me saying that any class that people have success with is overpowered.

SBs and skalds do very well solo, and I've literally never seen an SB or skald claim otherwise. But minstrels have this inferiority complex where they insist that their class is not only not powerful but is actually underpowered, like you do. The only explanation for their overwhelming popularity and effectiveness, if we're to assume this underpowered minstrel argument, is that there are a huge number of extraordinarily talented players who all flock to this class more than any other class, which is nonsense.

By "tons of players" you mean literally 25% of 250 players. What? A class, good or bad, can top that chart for all sorts of reasons.

I didn't say Minstrels were underpowered. I said they do shit DPS and rely on their pet. This is the truth.

Also, your precious pet nerfs aren't going to change the numbers, they can still kite you to death. I just don't believe in submitting to no skill Mids who want to play the forums and not the game.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 8:59 PM by Nunki

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 PM
Also, your precious pet nerfs aren't going to change the numbers, they can still kite you to death.

In that case, the change would be totally fine. Why discuss about it?
Obvious proof that the current Minstrel needs an even harder nerf (just according your logic).

Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:19 PM by teiloh

Nunki wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 8:59 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 PM
Also, your precious pet nerfs aren't going to change the numbers, they can still kite you to death.
In that case, the change would be totally fine. Why discuss about it?
Obvious proof that the current Minstrel needs an even harder nerf (just according your logic).

Literally any pet class can do the things you're talking about about. I guess they'll kill you about 3x faster so its less of an ordeal.

Thu 9 Apr 2020 10:26 PM by Nunki

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 9:19 PM
Nunki wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 8:59 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 7:08 PM
Also, your precious pet nerfs aren't going to change the numbers, they can still kite you to death.
In that case, the change would be totally fine. Why discuss about it?
Obvious proof that the current Minstrel needs an even harder nerf (just according your logic).

Literally any pet class can do the things you're talking about about. I guess they'll kill you about 3x faster so its less of an ordeal.

Just check the other flame thread Teiloh created because he didn't get the acknowledgement here he was seeking for.
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9477&start=20

Fri 10 Apr 2020 2:20 AM by gotwqqd

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 6:49 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 4:52 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Apr 2020 3:20 PM
Man, you are so ridiculous. Nothing you just said diminishes what I said.

By taking your argument apart? It literally does diminish what you said. If you think judging a class' power based on their representation of top weekly soloers within a realm, then you must also think SB and Skalds are overpowered.

You're so insecure that you think when someone claims that minstrels can only be played well by a select few players and I show that tons of players are having success with them, you have to turn that into me saying that any class that people have success with is overpowered.

SBs and skalds do very well solo, and I've literally never seen an SB or skald claim otherwise. But minstrels have this inferiority complex where they insist that their class is not only not powerful but is actually underpowered, like you do. The only explanation for their overwhelming popularity and effectiveness, if we're to assume this underpowered minstrel argument, is that there are a huge number of extraordinarily talented players who all flock to this class more than any other class, which is nonsense.

It’s not infer complex
They just want to skew the discussion so their massively powerful class don’t get nerfed

Fri 10 Apr 2020 11:56 AM by Noashakra

Why on live, when I played years ago, I don't even remember ragin against ministrels? Because they were few that could play the class well, and when they would win, it felt like they deserved it.
And here every 3 days, I see a new 3L with a red pet farming the relic gates with SOS ready to fire.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:12 PM by teiloh

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Apr 2020 11:56 AM
Why on live, when I played years ago, I don't even remember ragin against ministrels? Because they were few that could play the class well, and when they would win, it felt like they deserved it.
And here every 3 days, I see a new 3L with a red pet farming the relic gates with SOS ready to fire.

Stop crying about red pets. Go ahead and compare the DPS/Speed/Utility of a red pet with any baseline trash pet. Sounds like you'd prefer it if Minstrels got SM pets.

Yes, there was plenty of raging by whiners like Cadebrennus. It's been 20 years and they're still crying like slapped little girls.

Fri 10 Apr 2020 4:33 PM by

Uthred

Teiloh & Noashakra. If you dont stop your personal kindergarten, you both will get a timeout. Really sick of cleaning up here every day.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 4:11 PM by Sagz

The change did not really effect minstrels really, I have to twist a lot more, but just means Ill get carpel tunnel. The only change they should have made was the pet not attack the minstrel after the release to break CC. Everything else could have stayed the same (and yes same goes the menty pet) Any charmed pet should not attack after release just like a perma charmed pet. Problem solved.

When you try to please everyone, you will only accomplish pleasing no one.

Fri 17 Apr 2020 7:32 PM by necrolove1

I'm pretty sure the last change to Mini was not the final product. atleast i hope not, the attractiveness of mini has only gone down due to how much more you have to mash the pet charm button.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 2:14 AM by ninskrillz

necrolove1 wrote: I'm pretty sure the last change to Mini was not the final product. atleast i hope not, the attractiveness of mini has only gone down due to how much more you have to mash the pet charm button.

As someone who has played minst for the first time - its quite an annoying mechanic to have to deal with. I know I'm trash but its so meticulously bothersome it makes the whole part of the class not worth dealing with.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 9:31 AM by

gruenesschaf

The next update will include the first version of this change, depending on feedback it might be altered again:

1) Charm pulses can now run concurrently with other pulse spells, in practice this means minstrels can run speed or ablative or flute mezz while having an active pet without having to spam charm in-between
2) Minstrel charm spells will receive a 6 second cooldown
3) Manually releasing a pulse charmed pet (e. g. via the Release button on the pet window) will now also cancel the charm pulse.

While working on 3, the way pulse charmed pet releasing works, a bug was found that could sometimes lead to inconsistent behavior of the pet afterwards. Technically the pet release for pulse charmed pets is now only done via expiring the charm effect and no longer via expiring the charm effect as well as also explicitly releasing it, due to some timing issues the latter could sometimes lead to unexpected behavior.

As mentioned in the initial post, our goal with the minstrel changes are to lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players, this is done via charm running concurrently: Charming lower level mobs is now a lot easier and should be basically hassle free, higher level ones are now a bit riskier as well but depending on the minstrel RR can still be manageable.

Also as mentioned, the minstrel ceiling should be reduced a bit, this is done via the charm cd in combination with cancelling the pulse on explicit pet release:
Releasing a pet to break cc now has a window where the pet can be cc'd and the cc on the pet can then only be removed via explicitly recharming it (which now has a cooldown) and releasing it again.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 10:47 AM by Strikejk

Why a 6s cooldown on the minstrel charm? That seems like a huge nerf.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 10:53 AM by Astaa

Sounds like a learn to play issue to me.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:22 AM by Noashakra

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 10:47 AM
Why a 6s cooldown on the minstrel charm? That seems like a huge nerf.

To avoid the macro spam to keep a red/purple pet under control with no drawback.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 12:43 PM by Ashman

- explicitly releasing a pet (e. g. via the pet window release button) now also cancels the pulse charm

your "minstrel nerf" is more a mentalist nerf than anything else.

was to be expected, its a hib class after all

Sun 19 Apr 2020 2:17 PM by Razur Ur

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
As mentioned in the initial post, our goal with the minstrel changes are to lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players, this is done via charm running concurrently:

Nice joke :-D and plz let bard too twice chants use for more manageable and lower barrier to find a bard in this game!!!

Sun 19 Apr 2020 3:50 PM by necrolove1

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
The next update will include the first version of this change, depending on feedback it might be altered again:

1) Charm pulses can now run concurrently with other pulse spells, in practice this means minstrels can run speed or ablative or flute mezz while having an active pet without having to spam charm in-between
2) Minstrel charm spells will receive a 6 second cooldown
3) Manually releasing a pulse charmed pet (e. g. via the Release button on the pet window) will now also cancel the charm pulse.

While working on 3, the way pulse charmed pet releasing works, a bug was found that could sometimes lead to inconsistent behavior of the pet afterwards. Technically the pet release for pulse charmed pets is now only done via expiring the charm effect and no longer via expiring the charm effect as well as also explicitly releasing it, due to some timing issues the latter could sometimes lead to unexpected behavior.

As mentioned in the initial post, our goal with the minstrel changes are to lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players, this is done via charm running concurrently: Charming lower level mobs is now a lot easier and should be basically hassle free, higher level ones are now a bit riskier as well but depending on the minstrel RR can still be manageable.

Also as mentioned, the minstrel ceiling should be reduced a bit, this is done via the charm cd in combination with cancelling the pulse on explicit pet release:
Releasing a pet to break cc now has a window where the pet can be cc'd and the cc on the pet can then only be removed via explicitly recharming it (which now has a cooldown) and releasing it again.

I like this! Out of curiosity, why cant the pet just stay CCd after release?

Sun 19 Apr 2020 3:53 PM by Quik

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
The next update will include the first version of this change, depending on feedback it might be altered again:

1) Charm pulses can now run concurrently with other pulse spells, in practice this means minstrels can run speed or ablative or flute mezz while having an active pet without having to spam charm in-between
2) Minstrel charm spells will receive a 6 second cooldown
3) Manually releasing a pulse charmed pet (e. g. via the Release button on the pet window) will now also cancel the charm pulse.

While working on 3, the way pulse charmed pet releasing works, a bug was found that could sometimes lead to inconsistent behavior of the pet afterwards. Technically the pet release for pulse charmed pets is now only done via expiring the charm effect and no longer via expiring the charm effect as well as also explicitly releasing it, due to some timing issues the latter could sometimes lead to unexpected behavior.

As mentioned in the initial post, our goal with the minstrel changes are to lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players, this is done via charm running concurrently: Charming lower level mobs is now a lot easier and should be basically hassle free, higher level ones are now a bit riskier as well but depending on the minstrel RR can still be manageable.

Also as mentioned, the minstrel ceiling should be reduced a bit, this is done via the charm cd in combination with cancelling the pulse on explicit pet release:
Releasing a pet to break cc now has a window where the pet can be cc'd and the cc on the pet can then only be removed via explicitly recharming it (which now has a cooldown) and releasing it again.

Thanks dev's this seems like a real nice change for all involved.

Thanks for listening to our concerns on the Minstrel and being intelligent enough to see there was a problem and actually trying to do something about it.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 6:01 PM by hefrocko2

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 9:31 AM
The next update will include the first version of this change, depending on feedback it might be altered again:

1) Charm pulses can now run concurrently with other pulse spells, in practice this means minstrels can run speed or ablative or flute mezz while having an active pet without having to spam charm in-between
2) Minstrel charm spells will receive a 6 second cooldown
3) Manually releasing a pulse charmed pet (e. g. via the Release button on the pet window) will now also cancel the charm pulse.

While working on 3, the way pulse charmed pet releasing works, a bug was found that could sometimes lead to inconsistent behavior of the pet afterwards. Technically the pet release for pulse charmed pets is now only done via expiring the charm effect and no longer via expiring the charm effect as well as also explicitly releasing it, due to some timing issues the latter could sometimes lead to unexpected behavior.

As mentioned in the initial post, our goal with the minstrel changes are to lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players, this is done via charm running concurrently: Charming lower level mobs is now a lot easier and should be basically hassle free, higher level ones are now a bit riskier as well but depending on the minstrel RR can still be manageable.

Also as mentioned, the minstrel ceiling should be reduced a bit, this is done via the charm cd in combination with cancelling the pulse on explicit pet release:
Releasing a pet to break cc now has a window where the pet can be cc'd and the cc on the pet can then only be removed via explicitly recharming it (which now has a cooldown) and releasing it again.

With a 6 sec recast existing for charm, you should allow a charm tick to last 30 seconds instead of 10. This change would make the most sense if you're increasing the cast time of charm and would still prevent minstrels from spamming charm on high level pets since the 6 sec CD exists (which is ridiculous btw). This will "lower the barrier of entry for minstrel players" that you allege to be fixing, while also not interfering with your intent of blocking of people spamming charm on high level pets.

Sun 19 Apr 2020 7:23 PM by Tyrlaan

A 5sec pulse 10sec duration charm gets lost on a double resist. While making it an extra pulse that doesn´t get lost when using speed or flute mezz makes it less of a hassle, a 6sec RUT (that gives one extra chance on a double resist) is way too long IMHO. You can do the calculation how often double resists occur off base chance to resist (displayed). That´s when charm becomes worthless because it breaks speed more often than it does hold a pet.

I´m still waiting on QQ 2020 proposals to nerf the one most played (for a reason) class, the Skald. Their instant snare allows their gank groups to roll soloers or lower numbers just as often as Bard amnesia does...

Sun 19 Apr 2020 10:12 PM by Centenario

Played a minstrel today, must say its refreshing, to be able to play it correctly. I prefer not to use macro ever, good that now its gone.
Too bad I didnt get my minstrel with shield line or 2-handed minstrel :p but this is very good!

Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:02 PM by snowyr0x

So does this mean if I release my pet and it begins attacking me I only have one chance every 6 seconds to re-control it? If it get resisted on the first attempt to recontrol I now have a pet beating the crap out of me for at least 6 seconds assuming the charm doesn't get resisted a second time?

Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:18 PM by DarkDavion

A well deserved nerf! BTW I still see minstrel with red/purple pets so don't QQ too much, all know that minstrel was rly way OP

Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:49 PM by Sagz

snowyr0x wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:02 PM
So does this mean if I release my pet and it begins attacking me I only have one chance every 6 seconds to re-control it? If it get resisted on the first attempt to recontrol I now have a pet beating the crap out of me for at least 6 seconds assuming the charm doesn't get resisted a second time?

Yup. However, they should of just had the pet not attack you if released, would be no reason to release the pet, it would just be a harder, higher con pet for another group to control (yes goes for Mentalist too). That would have solved 90% of the complaints I think . As much as I enjoyed that part of it, it was OP.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:00 AM by joshisanonymous

Not sure I understand what exactly happens when the pet is released. So there's a 6 second cooldown now, and releasing also cancels the charms. Does that mean that the 6 second cooldown is triggered when releasing the pet so that there's at least a 6 second window to CC the uncontrolled pet, or does it mean that they can release and immediately recharm and the minst will only have a problem if that recharm is resisted? I'm assuming the former, since the latter doesn't really make a lot of sense.

BTW, with all the minstrels that were claiming that "all you gotta do" is CC the pet, wait for it to be released, then immediately CC it before it's recharmed again, I attempted to do just that a few times. The result was always a message saying that the pet either resisted the CC or was immune to the CC already. I have video of it, but I don't know if it matters anymore.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:50 AM by Sepplord

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 7:23 PM
Their instant snare allows their gank groups to roll soloers or lower numbers just as often as Bard amnesia does...

Yeah, that 1500range instant really is a gamechanger...not like any other of the myriad of 1500range instants doesn't do the same. Every single character in the game can break speed instant at 1500range if they choose to do so. Since you specifically complained about getting rolled by bigger numbers, there are always people with speed left after yours is broken, so the snare-component can't be the huge difference

Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:18 PM by teiloh

The chance for double resists is still too high for lower level pets, and Minstrel pets have been way overnerfed.

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:18 PM
A well deserved nerf! BTW I still see minstrel with red/purple pets so don't QQ too much, all know that minstrel was rly way OP

Its OP because its Red

That's my dissertation folks!

Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:20 PM by Sepplord

Could a minstrel explain and list in detail in which situations the new cooldown creates a risk/problem?
Someone that actually used it ingame please and without sarcasm or sidetracking to other issues.

I just want to make sure i understand the change, and am not talking about a potentially wrong interpretation of the new situation

Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:22 PM by teiloh

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:20 PM
Could explain and list in detail in which situations the cooldown creates a risk/problem?

without sarcasm or sidetracking other issues.

Basically when you're running around you have a random chance of the pet attacking you and therefore slowing your whole group down or getting you killed. You can avoid this by feathering "stay" and "follow" but that completely goes against the intent of the change which is to lower hassle and skill cap.

Simply having the pet not lose CC and not attack you would have been an elegant solution. The "problem" of red pets was never actually a real problem because despite their magical color that causes emotional reactions in some people who have complained for decades, it doesn't do any higher DPS than baseline summoned pets.

So now the Minstrel pet has to deal with a tether and recharm on significantly weakened pet.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:35 PM by Tyrlaan

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:50 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 7:23 PM
Their instant snare allows their gank groups to roll soloers or lower numbers just as often as Bard amnesia does...

Yeah, that 1500range instant really is a gamechanger...not like any other of the myriad of 1500range instants doesn't do the same. Every single character in the game can break speed instant at 1500range if they choose to do so. Since you specifically complained about getting rolled by bigger numbers, there are always people with speed left after yours is broken, so the snare-component can't be the huge difference

First of all, being snared does make a difference if you want to blow SoS after speed broken to escape.

But that was not my point at all. They obviously wanted both Alb and Hib speed classes nerfed which were hard to come by for groups already while leaving the Mid speed class alone even though it´s this class that´s a pest in RvR, leading /serverinfo most of the time ever since release. I mean it´s okay to have people want to play support classes crucial for RvR, but not selective in one realm only.

A Bard has its instant Amnesia because they have to keep range (including breaking speed early) and to interrupt at that range while getting up their songs. A Bard that´s shut down is a lost fight. And a Minstrel has their high con pet because their dps sucks otherwise which also comes at the expense of not being able to stealth. That´s DAoC balance (both on a class, 8v8 and RvR level) in a nutshell.

There´s plenty to nerf about Skalds to adjust their number down to what was Minstrels and Bards before their nerf. Start with Det (they should never have gotten it in the 1st place, Live gave root dampening only) or range/RUT on their instants. They are the close combat speed class after all, no?

Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:45 PM by hefrocko2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:20 PM
Could a minstrel explain and list in detail in which situations the new cooldown creates a risk/problem?
Someone that actually used it ingame please and without sarcasm or sidetracking to other issues.

I just want to make sure i understand the change, and am not talking about a potentially wrong interpretation of the new situation

I had a low lvl pet with 5% resist rate, should be no issue, right? Well, it resisted 1 charm pulse, I tried to re charm it and it resisted again, a 5% reists. .. It knocked me off speed because I was blocked by the 6 sec recast. No lvl 52 pet should be knocking a player off speed and getting them killed because they are waiting for a cool down for charm pulse (I wasn't even releasing it just letting charm pulse its normal way while running) . I know it won't happen often, but because this new mechanic allowed it to happen even once already is broken. The recast should be deceresed to 2 sec (which still discouraged charming high level pets) or a charm pulse should last 30 sec, so no chance a lvl 52 will double/triple resist a normal pulse sequence and knock you off speed getting you/group killed.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:03 PM by Tyrlaan

snowyr0x wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 11:02 PM
So does this mean if I release my pet and it begins attacking me I only have one chance every 6 seconds to re-control it? If it get resisted on the first attempt to recontrol I now have a pet beating the crap out of me for at least 6 seconds assuming the charm doesn't get resisted a second time?

Yes but this change aims at not needing to release your pet. All your other songs don´t stop the charm pulse. But it´s too high of a RUT, limiting the con of the pet considerably (because it´s your 2nd chance on a double resist, and if you´re missing pulses like due to being mezzed you have 1 chance every 6 seconds to re-charm or be smacked by your own pet).

They should have waited after the last change that reduced pulse duration (by it not being affected by instrument/weapon quality). That change already meant a Minstrel would get smacked by their own pet (against their will) a lot more often, especially during stuns (because charm duration would no longer be much higher than stun duration). Then a fix to the release breaking CC and voilà. Instead they messed with re-charm and thus pet con i.e. dps.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:37 PM by Noashakra

Lol a yellow pet hitting you is something every mentalist had to deal with before. We have no way to spam the charm. But now that ministrels have to do it, it's a big deal?

And no the problem with the red pet is not the dommages. It's their hitpoints. When you have two bargheists in front of you in a 8vs8 situation, and the clerics heal them, it makes it so hard to win. The fact they are red makes them resist your spells more on top.

Same in solo. An orange pet is easier to kill. It's impossible to kill a bargheists with the ministrel kitting you.

Saying dommages are the problem is the typical defection of the ministrel lobby. If it was only a 5% they would not be here telling you it's nothing.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:54 PM by Tyrlaan

But then a Light Mentalist has other means to make fromage than their pet. One has apple, the other has orange flavor.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:04 PM by Sepplord

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:35 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:50 AM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sun 19 Apr 2020 7:23 PM
Their instant snare allows their gank groups to roll soloers or lower numbers just as often as Bard amnesia does...

Yeah, that 1500range instant really is a gamechanger...not like any other of the myriad of 1500range instants doesn't do the same. Every single character in the game can break speed instant at 1500range if they choose to do so. Since you specifically complained about getting rolled by bigger numbers, there are always people with speed left after yours is broken, so the snare-component can't be the huge difference

First of all, being snared does make a difference if you want to blow SoS after speed broken to escape.

But that was not my point at all. They obviously wanted both Alb and Hib speed classes nerfed which were hard to come by for groups already while leaving the Mid speed class alone even though it´s this class that´s a pest in RvR, leading /serverinfo most of the time ever since release. I mean it´s okay to have people want to play support classes crucial for RvR, but not selective in one realm only.

A Bard has its instant Amnesia because they have to keep range (including breaking speed early) and to interrupt at that range while getting up their songs. A Bard that´s shut down is a lost fight. And a Minstrel has their high con pet because their dps sucks otherwise which also comes at the expense of not being able to stealth. That´s DAoC balance (both on a class, 8v8 and RvR level) in a nutshell.

There´s plenty to nerf about Skalds to adjust their number down to what was Minstrels and Bards before their nerf. Start with Det (they should never have gotten it in the 1st place, Live gave root dampening only) or range/RUT on their instants. They are the close combat speed class after all, no?

okay, i get where you are coming from in general (although i still don't get the snare argument...if you SoS while others are still at speed6 you aren't getting away...if others hit you too you aren't snared anymore (or they could have just meleesnared you too)) i personally don't think the bard and minstrel changes are connected though...but i understand the line of thinking. It's not unreasonable in general.

Both have different reasons for them happening and i believe the intention for the minstrels in particular was to nerf the toplevel solominstrels, while enabling casual minstrel to have a pet at all (IIRC they mentioned that some minstrels often don't even bother with a pet in a group) without having to permanently twist.

PS: i am not saying they hit that goal, i cannot gauge the new minstrelmechanic well currently

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:06 PM by Sepplord

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:54 PM
But then a Light Mentalist has other means to make fromage than their pet. One has apple, the other has orange flavor.

mhhhh....
Fromage
*insert drooling Homer Simpson*

To be fair though, the minstrel has plenty of other tools and utilities besides doing damage too.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:26 PM by Tyrlaan

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:06 PM
Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 1:54 PM
But then a Light Mentalist has other means to make fromage than their pet. One has apple, the other has orange flavor.

mhhhh....
Fromage
*insert drooling Homer Simpson*

To be fair though, the minstrel has plenty of other tools and utilities besides doing damage too.

True. That use of dommage was just too funny to pass.

A hardier pet IS more damage (and rupts) but it also cannot be replaced on the spot like other pets can.

A Minstrel without a pet still has a lot of utility but they need a (stealth) group to do dps for them. A Light Mentalist without a pet keeps both their spec nuke dps and their utility. Apples and oranges. Also, Minstrels are still more important to their realm than Mentalists (even though demezz is a scarce resource in Hib).

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:30 PM by joshisanonymous

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
I had a low lvl pet with 5% resist rate, should be no issue, right? Well, it resisted 1 charm pulse, I tried to re charm it and it resisted again, a 5% reists. .. It knocked me off speed because I was blocked by the 6 sec recast. No lvl 52 pet should be knocking a player off speed and getting them killed because they are waiting for a cool down for charm pulse (I wasn't even releasing it just letting charm pulse its normal way while running) . I know it won't happen often, but because this new mechanic allowed it to happen even once already is broken. The recast should be deceresed to 2 sec (which still discouraged charming high level pets) or a charm pulse should last 30 sec, so no chance a lvl 52 will double/triple resist a normal pulse sequence and knock you off speed getting you/group killed.

5% =/= 0%, so yes, you should lose the pet once in a blue moon if it's working correctly, and that blue moon is rarely going to coincide with a life or death situation.

If made the recast 2 seconds, then it would have no effect whatsoever on minstrels having unlimited purges for both the pet and owner because 2 seconds is effectively no window at all for CCing the released pet. As it is, they're being generous by still giving you unlimited purges with only slightly increasing the window of opportunity to counter it.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:48 PM by hefrocko2

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:30 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
I had a low lvl pet with 5% resist rate, should be no issue, right? Well, it resisted 1 charm pulse, I tried to re charm it and it resisted again, a 5% reists. .. It knocked me off speed because I was blocked by the 6 sec recast. No lvl 52 pet should be knocking a player off speed and getting them killed because they are waiting for a cool down for charm pulse (I wasn't even releasing it just letting charm pulse its normal way while running) . I know it won't happen often, but because this new mechanic allowed it to happen even once already is broken. The recast should be deceresed to 2 sec (which still discouraged charming high level pets) or a charm pulse should last 30 sec, so no chance a lvl 52 will double/triple resist a normal pulse sequence and knock you off speed getting you/group killed.

5% =/= 0%, so yes, you should lose the pet once in a blue moon if it's working correctly, and that blue moon is rarely going to coincide with a life or death situation.

If made the recast 2 seconds, then it would have no effect whatsoever on minstrels having unlimited purges for both the pet and owner because 2 seconds is effectively no window at all for CCing the released pet. As it is, they're being generous by still giving you unlimited purges with only slightly increasing the window of opportunity to counter it.

Your logic makes no sense. I was caught in rvr because a lvl 52 pet couldn't be charmed due to 2 resists. The mechanic is broken if it allows such a scenario. No one should be dropped from speed in such a situation. I understand if we're talking about a red pet, but a low orange should not be causing this. 2 sec recast would fix this, or a 30 sec pulse, and still discourage use of red pets.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:52 PM by joshisanonymous

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:48 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:30 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 12:45 PM
I had a low lvl pet with 5% resist rate, should be no issue, right? Well, it resisted 1 charm pulse, I tried to re charm it and it resisted again, a 5% reists. .. It knocked me off speed because I was blocked by the 6 sec recast. No lvl 52 pet should be knocking a player off speed and getting them killed because they are waiting for a cool down for charm pulse (I wasn't even releasing it just letting charm pulse its normal way while running) . I know it won't happen often, but because this new mechanic allowed it to happen even once already is broken. The recast should be deceresed to 2 sec (which still discouraged charming high level pets) or a charm pulse should last 30 sec, so no chance a lvl 52 will double/triple resist a normal pulse sequence and knock you off speed getting you/group killed.

5% =/= 0%, so yes, you should lose the pet once in a blue moon if it's working correctly, and that blue moon is rarely going to coincide with a life or death situation.

If made the recast 2 seconds, then it would have no effect whatsoever on minstrels having unlimited purges for both the pet and owner because 2 seconds is effectively no window at all for CCing the released pet. As it is, they're being generous by still giving you unlimited purges with only slightly increasing the window of opportunity to counter it.

Your logic makes no sense. I was caught in rvr because a lvl 52 pet couldn't be charmed due to 2 resists. The mechanic is broken if it allows such a scenario. No one should be dropped from speed in such a situation. I understand if we're talking about a red pet, but a low orange should not be causing this. 2 sec recast would fix this, or a 30 sec pulse, and still discourage use of red pets.

Dude, if you can't understand that 5 doesn't equal 0, then I don't think we can continue this conversation.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:59 PM by hefrocko2

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:52 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:48 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:30 PM
5% =/= 0%, so yes, you should lose the pet once in a blue moon if it's working correctly, and that blue moon is rarely going to coincide with a life or death situation.

If made the recast 2 seconds, then it would have no effect whatsoever on minstrels having unlimited purges for both the pet and owner because 2 seconds is effectively no window at all for CCing the released pet. As it is, they're being generous by still giving you unlimited purges with only slightly increasing the window of opportunity to counter it.

Your logic makes no sense. I was caught in rvr because a lvl 52 pet couldn't be charmed due to 2 resists. The mechanic is broken if it allows such a scenario. No one should be dropped from speed in such a situation. I understand if we're talking about a red pet, but a low orange should not be causing this. 2 sec recast would fix this, or a 30 sec pulse, and still discourage use of red pets.

Dude, if you can't understand that 5 doesn't equal 0, then I don't think we can continue this conversation.

I think you fail to comprehend the bigger picture, by your logic, Skalds should receive a 5% passive chance for speed to drop for 13 seconds to balance things out. Don't comment on a class you don't understand just because you want it nerfed. If you can't understand this, please take your leave since you have nothing to contribute to this change.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:26 PM by Sepplord

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:59 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:52 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:48 PM
Your logic makes no sense. I was caught in rvr because a lvl 52 pet couldn't be charmed due to 2 resists. The mechanic is broken if it allows such a scenario. No one should be dropped from speed in such a situation. I understand if we're talking about a red pet, but a low orange should not be causing this. 2 sec recast would fix this, or a 30 sec pulse, and still discourage use of red pets.

Dude, if you can't understand that 5 doesn't equal 0, then I don't think we can continue this conversation.

I think you fail to comprehend the bigger picture, by your logic, Skalds should receive a 5% passive chance for speed to drop for 13 seconds to balance things out. Don't comment on a class you don't understand just because you want it nerfed. If you can't understand this, please take your leave since you have nothing to contribute to this change.

The problem is that you are not communicating your argument well.

Your argument is: a lvl52pet should not have a 5% resistrate because....
The thing you said is: I used a pet with 5% resistchance. It should never resist two times in a row....

Afaik the changes happened to make higher than yellow pets a risk. Level52 is slightly higher, and comes with a slight risk. If the 5% is too high is up for debate... i personally can't gauge it fairly. But it's not the argument you made and that led to joshi "explaining it"

Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:51 PM by hefrocko2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:26 PM
hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:59 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 2:52 PM
Dude, if you can't understand that 5 doesn't equal 0, then I don't think we can continue this conversation.

I think you fail to comprehend the bigger picture, by your logic, Skalds should receive a 5% passive chance for speed to drop for 13 seconds to balance things out. Don't comment on a class you don't understand just because you want it nerfed. If you can't understand this, please take your leave since you have nothing to contribute to this change.

The problem is that you are not communicating your argument well.

Your argument is: a lvl52pet should not have a 5% resistrate because....
The thing you said is: I used a pet with 5% resistchance. It should never resist two times in a row....

Afaik the changes happened to make higher than yellow pets a risk. Level52 is slightly higher, and comes with a slight risk. If the 5% is too high is up for debate... i personally can't gauge it fairly. But it's not the argument you made and that led to joshi "explaining it"

That is not at all what I said, don't get hung up on the 5% resist rate, focus on the fact that a nerf targeting high level pets while preserving the smooth use of low levels is having undesirable consequences on low level pets (52-54 is low lvl for a minstrel considering we have no dps, a Det 9 skald will still out-dps a minst with a pet in this range). I actually said "No lvl 52 pet should be knocking a player off speed and getting them killed because they are waiting for a cool down" which means a minstrel should have the ability to recharm a lvl 52 (or anything up to 54/55) pet before it has a chance to knock us off speed. the entire point of this nerf was to restrict use of red pets and make the class more entry level focused... i doubt anyone will argue an orange pet was the target for the nerf. The recast time should be 2 sec or the charm pulse should be 30 sec to allow a player to salvage the charm of an orange pet before losing speed. I 100% agree red pets were leaning towards the OP side, and it is now impossible to hold one anyways for any length of time, but oranges were not the target of this nerf based on the dev's explanation - thus the mechanic is not working as intended. There are so many opinions on this thread from non-minstrel players who don't see how it is working in-game, that I am simply trying to point out the consequences it is having which deviate from the original intent so the devs can have informed input rather than mere opinions of people not playing the class.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 4:45 PM by Noashakra

it was the same for the mentalist, but because you could not spam the charm, you would lose the speed also once in a blue moon.
No mentalist went crying about this on forums, but now that happens to ministrels once in a blue mood with a yellow pet (and big news, this happened also on live !) it's the end of the word.
5% chances to be resisted twice is 4.75%. so yeah it's going to happend a good amount of the time. It's normal that charming a pet over 50 is harder. Risk/Reward.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 5:10 PM by Sepplord

0,05 x 0,05 = 0,0025 or 0,25%

Mon 20 Apr 2020 5:58 PM by Quik

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 3:51 PM
(52-54 is low lvl for a minstrel considering we have no dps, a Det 9 skald will still out-dps a minst with a pet in this range).

Wait, shouldn't a Skald always outdps a minstrel?

Minnie has an AoE mez that has OVER twice the range of a Skald and I am pretty sure it lasts longer but could be wrong plus they get an insta stun and you are worried that a skald one on one will outdps a Minnie??? A skald who will always spec probably at least twice as much into a weapon line as the Minnie will should seriously not be able to outdps a Minnie?

I really need to start just making up arguments on why my class needs to be better and throw logic out the window

Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:31 PM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 5:10 PM
0,05 x 0,05 = 0,0025 or 0,25%

yeah I don't remember my proba classes.
It's so low it's not even a problem.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 7:39 PM by Tyrlaan

Quik wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 5:58 PM
Minnie has an AoE mez that has OVER twice the range of a Skald and I am pretty sure it lasts longer but could be wrong plus they get an insta stun and you are worried that a skald one on one will outdps a Minnie??? A skald who will always spec probably at least twice as much into a weapon line as the Minnie will should seriously not be able to outdps a Minnie?

LOL. Instant mezz vs. 5sec cast time AoE mezz. I have yet to see a Minstrel AoE mezz win over an instant (mezz) at shorter range. And it´s basically same short duration for taking half that time to cast.

Minstrels spec 30+ into slash (the standard 50/33/30 or 50/32/31 spec) or 44 into thrust. Skalds spec twice as much into weapon? How so? And then there´s free 2h. And a superset in RA selection. If Minstrels had Det like every other stealther (and Skalds) gets on Phoenix than we could talk dps vs. utility. Both get instants to interrupt, and Skalds have their fair share of extra utility as well which is easy to twist in-between melee where Minstrels have to use songs and spells (demezz).

I mean, there´s a reason so many people play Skalds... many more than any other class. And it´s not for the challenge. And don´t fool yourself, people played all these Skalds solo, in smallman and gank groups despite complaining over the oh so OPed Minstrel or Hib smallman or gank group with instant Amnesia catching them. So let´s nerf lower population Minstrels and Bards... That´s logic only somebody who wants to remove opposition to their beloved Mid characters can understand.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 8:16 PM by Lerox

Yo boys how about stop whining about the minstrel?
The latest change is a good thing for many players since they don't have to struggle with twisting and getting annoyed by losing their pet.

If you cry about the dps of the pet because it is much lower now, I don't really get it.
For solo it doesn't really matter if you have a red or orange pet because you will kill everything if you have your ras up and even without you will be a tough enemy.
Just use your abilities to outplay players or go into kite dd play if you don't want to die and do it the easy way.

I have played solo since phoenix launch and I have 1 group and 1 solo minstrel and I can tell you that I beat rr10s with an orange pet. It is not the dps which matters that much it is how you use your pet and your abilities.

For 8v8 (which is in fact only a small community compared to the rest) it makes a difference but not too much since you can still break your cc and everything you just have a lower pet which can get killed easier and you have to take care about the 6 second timer.

The class itself just got easier with a small downside. Good for the average player bad for those who already made it work before but for those it doesn't really matter.

Since there are many minstrel players who whine about how weak the minstrel is just learn to play that class which just got easier and less skillful with the latest change so maybe you will do it now.

Sincerely
A real minstrel player

PS: To those who never played a minstrel: please leave your non-sense out of this thread and maybe start a minstrel right now to see the other side.

Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:31 PM by hefrocko2

Not sure how this turned into a skald discussion, the point the devs need to understand is there are undesirable consequences on trying to maintain a low level orange charm. Even if it works most of the time, the fact that a 6 sec recast has caused issues with low level pets means the change is not working as intended and the recast should be shortened or pulse should be lengthened. Not trying to argue for charming reds, just making sure no issues occur when charming low orange

Tue 21 Apr 2020 1:43 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
it was the same for the mentalist, but because you could not spam the charm, you would lose the speed also once in a blue moon.
No mentalist went crying about this on forums, but now that happens to ministrels once in a blue mood with a yellow pet (and big news, this happened also on live !) it's the end of the word.
5% chances to be resisted twice is 4.75%. so yeah it's going to happend a good amount of the time. It's normal that charming a pet over 50 is harder. Risk/Reward.

Your math is off
1/20 x 1/20= 1/400= .250%

But I think your number is from any two cycles
.95x.95=10% chance you get a resist then the chance of the subsequent fail is 5% so
.05x.10=4.875%

Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:08 AM by Sepplord

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:31 PM
Not sure how this turned into a skald discussion, the point the devs need to understand is there are undesirable consequences on trying to maintain a low level orange charm. Even if it works most of the time, the fact that a 6 sec recast has caused issues with low level pets means the change is not working as intended and the recast should be shortened or pulse should be lengthened. Not trying to argue for charming reds, just making sure no issues occur when charming low orange

maybe your definitiion of "low level pet" is just warped...
i doubt most daoc players think of an orange con when someone says "low level pet"

The "fix" you are constantly repeating also would make charming red pets much easier again, while you feel the need to mention that your intention is not about red pets...
to be honest, it seems you are arguing in bad faith

Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:39 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 1:43 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
it was the same for the mentalist, but because you could not spam the charm, you would lose the speed also once in a blue moon.
No mentalist went crying about this on forums, but now that happens to ministrels once in a blue mood with a yellow pet (and big news, this happened also on live !) it's the end of the word.
5% chances to be resisted twice is 4.75%. so yeah it's going to happend a good amount of the time. It's normal that charming a pet over 50 is harder. Risk/Reward.
Your math is off
1/20 x 1/20= 1/400= .250%

But I think your number is from any two cycles
.95x.95=10% chance you get a resist then the chance of the subsequent fail is 5% so
.05x.10=4.875%

Yes I was wrong, as noted before.

Otherwise, I played my menta yesterday (5L), and a lvl 50 pet had 4% resist chance. it was ALWAYS like this for us mentalist and our charm is not instant. so deal with it.

Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:46 AM by Riac

anyone that wont post their name is hiding something. im thinking if he would reveal his ign everyone would laugh and say "ok, nvm lol"

Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:47 AM by daytonchambers

hefrocko2 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 9:31 PM
Not sure how this turned into a skald discussion, the point the devs need to understand is there are undesirable consequences on trying to maintain a low level orange charm. Even if it works most of the time, the fact that a 6 sec recast has caused issues with low level pets means the change is not working as intended and the recast should be shortened or pulse should be lengthened. Not trying to argue for charming reds, just making sure no issues occur when charming low orange

Minstrel complaining that managing an orange pet now has issues.

Every Mentalist ever:

Tue 21 Apr 2020 8:35 AM by gotwqqd

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:39 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 1:43 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Apr 2020 4:45 PM
it was the same for the mentalist, but because you could not spam the charm, you would lose the speed also once in a blue moon.
No mentalist went crying about this on forums, but now that happens to ministrels once in a blue mood with a yellow pet (and big news, this happened also on live !) it's the end of the word.
5% chances to be resisted twice is 4.75%. so yeah it's going to happend a good amount of the time. It's normal that charming a pet over 50 is harder. Risk/Reward.
Your math is off
1/20 x 1/20= 1/400= .250%

But I think your number is from any two cycles
.95x.95=10% chance you get a resist then the chance of the subsequent fail is 5% so
.05x.10=4.875%

Yes I was wrong, as noted before.

Otherwise, I played my menta yesterday (5L), and a lvl 50 pet had 4% resist chance. it was ALWAYS like this for us mentalist and our charm is not instant. so deal with it.

No actually you are not wrong....because it’s not if, it’s when(and you will) fail/get resisted the subsequent chance is 5% that you fail.
It’s just a question of when.

Tue 21 Apr 2020 8:50 AM by Noashakra

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 8:35 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:39 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 1:43 AM
Your math is off
1/20 x 1/20= 1/400= .250%

But I think your number is from any two cycles
.95x.95=10% chance you get a resist then the chance of the subsequent fail is 5% so
.05x.10=4.875%

Yes I was wrong, as noted before.

Otherwise, I played my menta yesterday (5L), and a lvl 50 pet had 4% resist chance. it was ALWAYS like this for us mentalist and our charm is not instant. so deal with it.

No actually you are not wrong....because it’s not if, it’s when(and you will) fail/get resisted the subsequent chance is 5% that you fail.
It’s just a question of when.

Ah so I remebered my maths proba well

Tue 21 Apr 2020 11:03 AM by Noashakra

I can't tell you how great it is to see a bad ministrels SOSing away because he unable to do anything without a red pet !

Tue 21 Apr 2020 11:56 AM by Dunga

played my low rr( 2l7) minne and realy like it. with that rr lvl 54 pet is the max for me, 15% resist but never ( ok 1/10000 trys....) lost them bc have 3! resists in a row. u have to do nothing if u have now and than a resist. no need for recast or so.... a higher pet than lvl54 at this rr is doable but u will lost the pet uncontrolled
and if that happens you won mostly nothing. rr2 and a lvl 54 pet ( ellyl champs,sages,... templer,...) its absolut fine for me.

what i want to know is.... with rr3 what resist will have the lvl54 pet? or other way, will a lvl55 pet have 15%resist with rr3/4/5/...? for me it looks like the 15% resist is the "magic number" .

edit: rr3 lvl54 pets still at 15% resist, lvl 52 and 53 at 5% now… looking for rr4
edit2: rr4 lvl54 now 5%, lvl 55 at 15%

Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:23 PM by joshisanonymous

Maybe there are now situations where it's more reasonable to successfully CC a minstrel's pet, but I gotta say, that 6 second window is still basically meaningless in solo situations, and I'm not sure why the devs are holding onto this broken mechanic. Just make pets CCable like any other pet in the game. Minstrels have loads of tools for preventing people from CCing their pets, waiting out CC, and demezzing already without insisting that they get to keep a broken mechanic where every form of CC is broken by pressing a single button. Red pets were never as much of an issue as the fact that you had literally no way to stop those red pets.

Sat 25 Apr 2020 7:42 PM by alex200k

Has anyone mentioned the minstrels ability to break cc on their own realm mates with their charmed pet?
Send pet to friendly target and release when close, it seems to hit the target and their break cc.
Is this intended too?

Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:58 PM by teiloh

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Apr 2020 3:23 PM
Maybe there are now situations where it's more reasonable to successfully CC a minstrel's pet, but I gotta say, that 6 second window is still basically meaningless in solo situations, and I'm not sure why the devs are holding onto this broken mechanic. Just make pets CCable like any other pet in the game. Minstrels have loads of tools for preventing people from CCing their pets, waiting out CC, and demezzing already without insisting that they get to keep a broken mechanic where every form of CC is broken by pressing a single button. Red pets were never as much of an issue as the fact that you had literally no way to stop those red pets.

How am I not surprised that anti-Minstrel lobbyists and whiners would start crying literally 3 days after the nerf for even more nerfs?

Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:58 PM by teiloh

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Apr 2020 6:47 AM
Minstrel complaining that managing an orange pet now has issues.

Every Mentalist ever:

It's a lot harder to manage a pet as a melee hybrid than it is a caster.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:56 PM by joshisanonymous

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:58 PM
How am I not surprised that anti-Minstrel lobbyists and whiners would start crying literally 3 days after the nerf for even more nerfs?

You don't even play.

Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:10 PM by daytonchambers

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:58 PM
It's a lot harder to manage a pet as a melee hybrid than it is a caster.

Having played a hunter on and off since 2002... you're wrong.

Advanced pet management is difficult not matter the class controlling it. And in many cases casters have a more difficult time juggling pet aggression to keep the pet from breaking the casters own CC.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 5:39 AM by teiloh

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:10 PM
Having played a hunter on and off since 2002... you're wrong.

Advanced pet management is difficult not matter the class controlling it. And in many cases casters have a more difficult time juggling pet aggression to keep the pet from breaking the casters own CC.

Minstrels and Hunters also have CC, but the Hunter is a different story because there's no pulse to worry about. Simply put as a caster 95% of your targets are going to be in front of you in a cone, for Minstrel they're everywhere and you have to retarget tons of a times.

Casters have lots of free time to mess around with a pet.

Tue 28 Apr 2020 2:43 PM by Lerox

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 5:39 AM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:10 PM
Having played a hunter on and off since 2002... you're wrong.

Advanced pet management is difficult not matter the class controlling it. And in many cases casters have a more difficult time juggling pet aggression to keep the pet from breaking the casters own CC.

Minstrels and Hunters also have CC, but the Hunter is a different story because there's no pulse to worry about. Simply put as a caster 95% of your targets are going to be in front of you in a cone, for Minstrel they're everywhere and you have to retarget tons of a times.

Casters have lots of free time to mess around with a pet.

You do like it would super hard to take care of the pet as a minstrel.
Of course as a minstrel you have more pet management but basically you use it as a real weapon against enemies.

Casters do not really take that much care of their pets because they have many other things to watch for. Positioning, assisting, rupting, etc.
They have much more tasks than a minstrel so I am not sure if it is justified to say that casters have more free time to mess around with their pets.

Regarding to the positioning: Being inside the enemies makes it harder to obtain the overview of everything but therefor you have your team to communicate with.

Wed 29 Apr 2020 3:20 AM by teiloh

Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 2:43 PM
You do like it would super hard to take care of the pet as a minstrel.
Of course as a minstrel you have more pet management but basically you use it as a real weapon against enemies.

Casters do not really take that much care of their pets because they have many other things to watch for. Positioning, assisting, rupting, etc.
They have much more tasks than a minstrel so I am not sure if it is justified to say that casters have more free time to mess around with their pets.

Regarding to the positioning: Being inside the enemies makes it harder to obtain the overview of everything but therefor you have your team to communicate with.

For me personally, having played every pet class that's my opinion. Maybe free time wasn't the right word, but you do have a lot of "deadtime" between casts. Not hard for me to bounce pet on Cab/BD for example, and they have no tether, whereas with Minstrel it's more involved.

Sun 3 May 2020 11:37 AM by Siouxsie

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Apr 2020 5:39 AM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:10 PM
Having played a hunter on and off since 2002... you're wrong.

Advanced pet management is difficult not matter the class controlling it. And in many cases casters have a more difficult time juggling pet aggression to keep the pet from breaking the casters own CC.

Minstrels and Hunters also have CC, but the Hunter is a different story because there's no pulse to worry about. Simply put as a caster 95% of your targets are going to be in front of you in a cone, for Minstrel they're everywhere and you have to retarget tons of a times.

Casters have lots of free time to mess around with a pet.

LOL. Hunters have CC.
No they really don't.

We have a crappy 5 second stun on spear, or a 7 sec stun off evade in sword style.
I wouldn't call that CC.

Tue 5 May 2020 12:37 PM by Pao

love that it was made even easier to play mincer... no need for AHK or retarget anymore. great buff