Keep Doors and Pets - Phoenix Freeshard

This change will go live on Friday or Saturday.

As a workaround for pets ignoring doors, all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed. This will likely take a couple iterations to get right, hence expect some weirdness when it's first implemented.

This will only cover nf keeps and towers and the way it technically works is: keeps that are in combat will have all their relevant doors check if an npcs is within 512 locs of them and if the npc is behind them, meaning effectively if it's within 256 locs behind them / on the inner side.
For towers, the upper postern door will only do this check until the tower gate is open.
For keeps all doors will do that until the outer door is open then only those connected to the central keep will do this check.

It's quite likely that some issues will be found where the door position does not match the shown position, this could for example lead to pets being killed that want to attack the door. It could also be the case that some doors are the other way around meaning npcs on the inside would be ignored but on the outside killed. Fixing those issues would take a reboot and unless there are real show stopper in it we'll gather the issues over the whole day and then do one update the next day.

EDIT:
In the initial implementation pets won't be killed but moved to their owner

Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:53 PM by Lynee

Does this also block shrooms being set on roofs/in lord rooms/on oil levels when line of sight is possible to a ground target? Asking because the mechanism of setting is different from any other pet.
Else - probably a good solution, saves people from mass pulling guards accidentally, too.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:55 PM by

gruenesschaf

Lynee wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:53 PM
Does this also block shrooms being set on roofs/in lord rooms/on oil levels when line of sight is possible to a ground target? Asking because the mechanism of setting is different from any other pet.

Placing shrooms within these 256 locs would cause them to get killed but they are not really the target of this change. The main reason are just the normal summoned pets, especially in combination with group heal / juggernaut.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:57 PM by Runental

Bravo Phoenix Staff. 👍

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:07 PM by DMXTRON

Nice change! Quick question. What would happen in the case of a tower trap? Let's say a bg runs into a tower and then that tower gets capped. Will all the pets die? Will there be a way to check if the pet owner is also behind the door?

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:13 PM by romulus

Hi!
While I understand that this is a solution to the pet problem, I hope it won't be the last word on the subject. I think auto-killing the pet is not a great solution. Setting pets on enemies that are around doors is going to be a no-go anymore since they can be insta-killed too easily now.
There should be some ability for the pet owner to retract their pet before it is nuked.
-- Like maybe instead of an insta-kill, perhaps give a warning in the log that the pet will die in 3s unless it returns from behind the door (Similar to the grace period afforded Necros when the pet goes beyond the tether distance).
-- Alternatively, maybe apply a fixed 33% DMG tick to the pet, giving some time before it completely dies. The pet will still be damaged, but at least the owner has a chance to disengage before it is totally killed.
-- Another thought, perhaps the pet could be insta-passivated and unable to be ordered to attack until it is returned back through the door. All the while it would be subjected to enemy attacks and still drawing guards.
I just think that given the time needed to summon and buff a pet, that insta-losing it because it chased an enemy through a door is a bit too far in the other direction.
:hugs:

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:17 PM by Freedomcall

This is a good start

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:24 PM by Shamissa

This change also include Necromancer pet i hope? because if you are only talking about chanter, bone dancer and spirit master here, than i guess we are going to have issues , you might wanna think before you change is my 2cents.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:25 PM by Giasah

"all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed."

On the one hand side I can understand why some players complain.. but on the other side when I understand your description correctly.. this change also would count for necromancer.. (or does his pet count as a shade and the player himself and so the necros are not affected from this change?)

Otherwise:
You wanna tell us, that if someone hit a necro pet by a cast and the pet is on defense and running to this caster.. it will automatically die behind a door and so the necro will stand with 5% of life in front of the door.. cannot do anything without his pet.. because there is no cast, which the necromancer can do without any pet (should they use their staff with 5% of life?)
So if you wanna change there something, then in reason of fairness you should consider the impacts on necros (if you offer that such a class exist in daoc like the original game did as well).
Furthermore: In the past there were already quite some changes when people announced necros would be too strong (e.g. reducing the distance between a necro and his pet). Understandable. But this regulation doesn`t seem to be fair that people can cast now by a keep or tower fight on a necro, but the necro cannot do anything against it.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:32 PM by Simon73

Giasah wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:25 PM
"all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed."

On the one hand side I can understand why some players complain.. but on the other side when I understand your description correctly.. this change also would count for necromancer.. (or does his pet count as a shade and the player himself and so the necros are not affected from this change?)

Otherwise:
You wanna tell us, that if someone hit a necro pet by a cast and the pet is on defense and running to this caster.. it will automatically die behind a door and so the necro will stand with 5% of life in front of the door.. cannot do anything without his pet.. because there is no cast, which the necromancer can do without any pet (should they use their staff with 5% of life?)
So if you wanna change there something, then in reason of fairness you should consider the impacts on necros (if you offer that such a class exist in daoc like the original game did as well).
Furthermore: In the past there were already quite some changes when people announced necros would be too strong (e.g. reducing the distance between a necro and his pet). Understandable. But this regulation doesn`t seem to be fair that people can cast now by a keep or tower fight on a necro, but the necro cannot do anything against it.

You know there is a button for passive or stay, yes?
Do you know that is considered a bug and abuse that pet enters a keep with door closed?

Damn, poor necro.

abuse
/əˈbjuːz/
1.
use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:33 PM by Runental

Giasah wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:25 PM
"all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed."

On the one hand side I can understand why some players complain.. but on the other side when I understand your description correctly.. this change also would count for necromancer.. (or does his pet count as a shade and the player himself and so the necros are not affected from this change?)

Otherwise:
You wanna tell us, that if someone hit a necro pet by a cast and the pet is on defense and running to this caster.. it will automatically die behind a door and so the necro will stand with 5% of life in front of the door.. cannot do anything without his pet.. because there is no cast, which the necromancer can do without any pet (should they use their staff with 5% of life?)
So if you wanna change there something, then in reason of fairness you should consider the impacts on necros (if you offer that such a class exist in daoc like the original game did as well).
Furthermore: In the past there were already quite some changes when people announced necros would be too strong (e.g. reducing the distance between a necro and his pet). Understandable. But this regulation doesn`t seem to be fair that people can cast now by a keep or tower fight on a necro, but the necro cannot do anything against it.

LOL?
He can still do whatever he wants, but send the pet trough CLOSED doors, which is never intended.
Use other abilitys to defeat yourself/group/BG and pet passiv.... Pets bugged into keeps now for 2 years, change the easy win playstyle, and you'll have nothing to worry about.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:41 PM by DJ2000

Ty Phoenix Staff. Going in the right direction with this one.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:55 PM by Slyver

Giasah wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:25 PM
"all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed."

On the one hand side I can understand why some players complain.. but on the other side when I understand your description correctly.. this change also would count for necromancer.. (or does his pet count as a shade and the player himself and so the necros are not affected from this change?)

Otherwise:
You wanna tell us, that if someone hit a necro pet by a cast and the pet is on defense and running to this caster.. it will automatically die behind a door and so the necro will stand with 5% of life in front of the door.. cannot do anything without his pet.. because there is no cast, which the necromancer can do without any pet (should they use their staff with 5% of life?)
So if you wanna change there something, then in reason of fairness you should consider the impacts on necros (if you offer that such a class exist in daoc like the original game did as well).
Furthermore: In the past there were already quite some changes when people announced necros would be too strong (e.g. reducing the distance between a necro and his pet). Understandable. But this regulation doesn`t seem to be fair that people can cast now by a keep or tower fight on a necro, but the necro cannot do anything against it.

Are you joking ? Set your pet on passive and use a quickcast would be an option.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 7:08 PM by Tifex

Question regarding this interaction with contested towers/keeps. If you enter a contested tower/keep and it is taken by an enemy realm are you now going to lose your pets because you are inside an enemy tower/keep now?

Thu 21 Jan 2021 7:15 PM by Sepplord

Sounds good

Too bad that means pets that lag through when sent to attack the door will be killed, but overall still better than the status quo.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 7:48 PM by Tyrlaan

romulus wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 6:13 PM
Hi!
While I understand that this is a solution to the pet problem, I hope it won't be the last word on the subject. I think auto-killing the pet is not a great solution. Setting pets on enemies that are around doors is going to be a no-go anymore since they can be insta-killed too easily now.
There should be some ability for the pet owner to retract their pet before it is nuked.
-- Like maybe instead of an insta-kill, perhaps give a warning in the log that the pet will die in 3s unless it returns from behind the door (Similar to the grace period afforded Necros when the pet goes beyond the tether distance).
-- Alternatively, maybe apply a fixed 33% DMG tick to the pet, giving some time before it completely dies. The pet will still be damaged, but at least the owner has a chance to disengage before it is totally killed.
-- Another thought, perhaps the pet could be insta-passivated and unable to be ordered to attack until it is returned back through the door. All the while it would be subjected to enemy attacks and still drawing guards.
I just think that given the time needed to summon and buff a pet, that insta-losing it because it chased an enemy through a door is a bit too far in the other direction.
:hugs:

This. While there was abuse with pets sent into keeps/towers, now we gonna see people abuse the port through the doors to insta-kill pets (which in many cases, especially necros and BDs, can be quite a loss both in time and power to re-summon and re-buff).

Just put the pet(s) passive until it has returned to the owner or their movement speed/cast range to zero until their target has popped out of the door again.

Thu 21 Jan 2021 9:24 PM by Ceen

Tifex wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 7:08 PM
Question regarding this interaction with contested towers/keeps. If you enter a contested tower/keep and it is taken by an enemy realm are you now going to lose your pets because you are inside an enemy tower/keep now?

Also interested in this one ^^

Thu 21 Jan 2021 9:46 PM by gotwqqd

I’d hope it’s more of a timer before losing pet.
Maybe 6-8 seconds

I don’t think a caster should be penalized when he has a pet on an enemy that can instantly transport through a door with a click

There needs to be some time to put on passive

Thu 21 Jan 2021 11:15 PM by DJ2000

*Scratches bewildered his head*

Druid, Mentalist and Enchanter.
Spiritmaster, Bonedancer and Hunter
Sorcerer, Minstrel, Theurgh, Cabalist and Necromancer.

Out of those above the only ones that might be afraid to lose their Pets are Necromancer, Spiritmaster and Bonedancer.
Minstrel, Sorcerer and Mentalist don't care that much, but would rather not, as they cba to get another one.
Druid, Enchanter, Theurgh, Cabalist and Hunter couldn't care less about losing their Pets during a Tower/Keep fight. No they don't.

So how or when would this be of an issue?
You see someone in front of the Door and you send your pet(s) instantly after them? Really?
Is it that you cba to set the Pet to passive during a Tower Fight anymore? I guess these ppl are prolly the cause of this issue in the first place.

There is no reason to send a Pet on someone inside a tower or keep. There NEVER was.
Unless you, to 100%, willingly abused the pet pathing in bad faith.
In that case shame on you.

The only "real" problem is during Tower/Keep fights when you are inside and the possession changes, and you belong to the enemy Realm.
Other than that, it is still possible for the Defenders to abuse the fact that the enemy can't send their Pets through the Front Gate and yet they, as Defenders, still can. I would like to see some solution for that as well. This has to be "cleared" both ways.
Also the Postern Doors seem to not be "included" in this change.
As gruenes said, there might be some nasty stuff occurring until its all ironed out.

But in any other case, i have no sympathy for anyone complaining about potentially losing his Pet.
(Can't wait to see the first guys figuring out how to send the pet in, without making it go in through the Gate)

Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:05 AM by xboxone

Y'all really gonna go so low that your allowing Thurg to keep unlimited pets trolling through doors of keeps but can't send an SM pet to counter it? What a complete joke.. recommend rethinking your troll logic.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:49 AM by Hedien

The benefits clearly outweigh the minor, avoidable potential issues.
Great change.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:07 AM by Jingo NZ

Forcing the pets to go "passive" and "follow" would be ideal. Better than insta pet death.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:12 AM by Delegator

Does this apply to defender pets going outside as well?

Fri 22 Jan 2021 5:07 AM by Trisha2019

I think the issue here is mostly these necro's ... they ruined this for the rest of us! Always camping their pet inside the door then bringing it out quick casting. So if anyone wants to complain.. complain to those necros! I think this is an amazing dev team! Great work... Now to PLEASE fix the Oil bug that kills You if you are inside the main tower and they drop Oil?

Fri 22 Jan 2021 7:05 AM by Sepplord

Trisha2019 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 5:07 AM
I think the issue here is mostly these necro's ... they ruined this for the rest of us! Always camping their pet inside the door then bringing it out quick casting. So if anyone wants to complain.. complain to those necros! I think this is an amazing dev team! Great work... Now to PLEASE fix the Oil bug that kills You if you are inside the main tower and they drop Oil?

Could you explain what you mean with "ruined this for the rest"?
What is the "this" you are referring to.

And no, defenders porting out with pets is not the reason for this change, and i doubt this will kill defender-pets too (at least i don't believe that is the intention). What this is supposed to "ruin" is attackers sending their pets inside to attack defenders

Fri 22 Jan 2021 7:10 AM by Sepplord

xboxone wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:05 AM
Y'all really gonna go so low that your allowing Thurg to keep unlimited pets trolling through doors of keeps but can't send an SM pet to counter it? What a complete joke.. recommend rethinking your troll logic.

How does a SM pet sent thorugh a door "counter" theurgpets?
so much for troll logic...

Theurg-"pets" are casted, every pet needs to be casted upon a target. Just like a bolt flies to someone after being casted, even if that person leaves LOS, the theurg pet runs towards them. To "counter" that you break LOS during the cast. You don't send your own pet that travels down the stairs, across the room, through the door and then out to the theurg to start ruppting him after 15seconds. You just take a step to the side/back and break LOS

Fri 22 Jan 2021 7:19 AM by Johny Rousquille

More than two years to fix this problem, your modifications I have to laugh, basically you've been messing with Midgard's head all this time.

it's all a shambles and everyone's happy.

Personally, I would be ashamed to make this change, it shows that Midgard was not being helped.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 7:20 AM by dbeattie71

Trisha2019 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 5:07 AM
I think the issue here is mostly these necro's ... they ruined this for the rest of us! Always camping their pet inside the door then bringing it out quick casting. So if anyone wants to complain.. complain to those necros! I think this is an amazing dev team! Great work... Now to PLEASE fix the Oil bug that kills You if you are inside the main tower and they drop Oil?

I thought it was the gazillion BD pets coming through doors.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 8:00 AM by gotwqqd

Jingo NZ wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:07 AM
Forcing the pets to go "passive" and "follow" would be ideal. Better than insta pet death.

great idea

Fri 22 Jan 2021 11:48 AM by

gruenesschaf

The initial implementation that will go live today will not kill the pets but move them to their owner instead.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:20 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 11:48 AM
The initial implementation that will go live today will not kill the pets but move them to their owner instead.

Nice change

Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:41 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 11:48 AM
The initial implementation that will go live today will not kill the pets but move them to their owner instead.

I do not dislike this, as it sounds similar to the "tether" approach i once suggested, but how does this work with Theurgh pets?

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:44 PM
As a workaround for pets ignoring doors, all player pets (except animist bomber and theurgist pets) will die when they are behind a door that should be closed. ....In the initial implementation pets won't be killed but moved to their owner

Gotcha', ok.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:56 PM by

Uthred

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Jan 2021 5:44 PM
As a workaround for pets ignoring doors, all player pets(except animist bomber and theurgist pets) ...

Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:04 PM by Delegator

xboxone wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 12:05 AM
Y'all really gonna go so low that your allowing Thurg to keep unlimited pets trolling through doors of keeps but can't send an SM pet to counter it? What a complete joke.. recommend rethinking your troll logic.

This shows complete ignorance of both the issue being solved and of how theurgists (and animists) work. Both theurgists and animists require line of sight to cast pets, just like any targeted spell. They can’t send their pets into a keep just because they get hit by a gtae or siege weapon. All you have to do to avoid a theurgists is the same thing you do to avoid being bolted or nuked or hit with arrows.

So, wise up and actually try to understand the problem being solved.

Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:31 PM by utaz

lmao someone died while solo camping tower to drop their nm or twf and cried HARD.
hey how about removing insane RP bonus to solos dropping twf on a zerg in a tower, killing nothing, doing nothing.

Sat 23 Jan 2021 12:11 AM by daytonchambers

As much as I despise pets rampaging behind keep walls and being spam-healed out of LoS, an insta-death may be a tad excessive. I mentioned in a post ages ago about the topic that Lords should be able to 1-shot pets behind closed doors but this takes that concept even further.

What if pets suffered the same damage-to-stunned state that players get/got when they attempt to dive underwater?

This would achieve the same result of snuffing out pet damage behind closed doors while at the same time giving the pet owner a chance to call their pet back once it's traveled to far.

Just a thought

Sat 23 Jan 2021 12:32 AM by daytonchambers

utaz wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:31 PM
lmao someone died while solo camping tower to drop their nm or twf and cried HARD.
hey how about removing insane RP bonus to solos dropping twf on a zerg in a tower, killing nothing, doing nothing.

This is an issue that has been asked about for well over a year on this server, and has been talked about far, far more than by just one player who "died while solo camping tower to drop their nm or twf and cried HARD." Pets behind closed doors that get spam-healed from outside the keep have been a cancer on this server since it launched.

Also you mentioned TWF twice. Funny how you call out others for crying while you yourself have tears in your eyes over an RA

Sat 23 Jan 2021 6:55 PM by Astaa

Another excellent change. Thank you.

Mon 25 Jan 2021 8:38 AM by Simon73

utaz wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Jan 2021 1:31 PM
lmao someone died while solo camping tower to drop their nm or twf and cried HARD.
hey how about removing insane RP bonus to solos dropping twf on a zerg in a tower, killing nothing, doing nothing.

Twf on zerg now it's useless.... probably if you are lucky you get one kill, not more.
I wish i started using warden earlier when TWF hit two floors

Sat 30 Jan 2021 3:54 PM by Frostburn

This change does not seem to effect Ellyl pets ?

Have seen them and the charmed levians inside towers yesterday....

Mon 8 Feb 2021 10:30 PM by gotwqqd

Seems that, at least during the event, necro s were exploiting this mechanic hard.
As soon as the pet was low on health the shade moved so as the pet snapped to him before death.
Maybe it’s time that they occupy the same avatar.

Is there really much issue? Except maybe Los two different ways?

Tue 9 Feb 2021 10:49 AM by Tool73

Frostburn wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 3:54 PM
This change does not seem to effect Ellyl pets ?

Have seen them and the charmed levians inside towers yesterday....

cabalist pets also not affected....again....so lets call it what it is, only MIDGARD pets cant enter keeps....and chanterpets.

Tue 9 Feb 2021 1:07 PM by easytoremember

Tool73 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Feb 2021 10:49 AM
Frostburn wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 3:54 PM
This change does not seem to effect Ellyl pets ?

Have seen them and the charmed levians inside towers yesterday....

cabalist pets also not affected....again....so lets call it what it is, only MIDGARD pets cant enter keeps....and chanterpets.

If the mechanism moving pets to owner is similar to the CK's porting players to setup from the event then the problem is Cabalist pets with tracker buff running across the volume between ticks. I assume the Minstrel pets had speed5 and did the same thing. In the case you get a pet on you, run to the closed door in question

Tue 9 Feb 2021 5:10 PM by Astaa

Tool73 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Feb 2021 10:49 AM
Frostburn wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 3:54 PM
This change does not seem to effect Ellyl pets ?

Have seen them and the charmed levians inside towers yesterday....

cabalist pets also not affected....again....so lets call it what it is, only MIDGARD pets cant enter keeps....and chanterpets.

BD archer pets still shoot through doors and walls though

Thu 1 Apr 2021 7:17 PM by Wakanidoo

2 months+ later: cabalist pets still not affected, i saw sevaral time simulacrum hitting me at the palintone top of tower while albs where still in the ram breaking the door.
Is this happening: the palin hits the caba and the simulacrum being in protect mode, by itself goes through the door to protect the caba ? Should not happen, im out of sight inside the tower.