Keep Changes - Phoenix Freeshard

Some time ago we said we’d look further into the keeps and what could be done to make raiding them more appealing, the purpose of these changes is not to make keeps the end all be all of RvR but at the same time keeps should not be just nice decoration that's practically pointless and people who like the keep warfare style should have a reason to pursue them.

These changes will be introduced in one of the next updates. Depending on the ingame reaction to those changes they'll be adjusted or even removed if they completely miss their mark.

There are 2 major goals:
1) We do not want 2 opposing realm BGs circle raiding keeps without ever interacting with each other, to that end the changes will not include direct bonuses to taking undefended keeps

2) We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare. One of the changes has the danger of making that happen and as such is something we will monitor and the primary reason for mentioning the potential removal of a change in the beginning.

General changes
- Keep door health will be adjusted
- Guards will have their level scaling reduced, only level 10 keeps will have purple guards
- Guards have their health halved and therefore then the same hp as normal mobs of the same level. This does not affect keep lords.
- There will be more guard spawn points in and around keeps
- Guards will respawn faster, to the point where it might actually happen while a raid is going on

Incentives:
1) Increasing reward for continued keep fights
The intention behind this incentive is to give people who like keep warfare a reason to form keep raid / defend bgs that attack / defend multiple keeps.

Each participation in a keep take involving enemy realm players, as indicated by the message "your efforts at keep xy haven't gone unnoticed", will have an increasing multiplier for the keep pool rp you receive. This multiplier is per character.
This pool is generated only by player death / combat in the keep region and a such not applicable to pve only keep raids. The multiplier does not "steal" rp from other participants with a lower multiplier, instead it "generates" additional rp. If your participation would give you 200 rp and your multiplier is 1.5 you will receive 300, these extra 100 rp have no effect whatsoever on the rewards of other people.
To ensure there are no misunderstandings, the tasks and keeps have and will keep their separate rp pools, this multiplier only applies to the keep rp pools.
Fighting over the keep task keep will increase the multiplier as 3 normal keep fights would do.

Until we are sure we really want to keep this feature, the multiplier will reset on every server restart, once we decided we want to have it it will either reset daily together with the personal tasks or each increase (aka participation in a keep fight) will apply for 24h.

2) Realm wide rp bonus / penalty based on keep ownership
The intention behind this incentive is to make it likely for reraids to happen and, well, just be an incentive to raid keeps and to actually defend them.

A realm owning 7 keeps has no bonus / penalty.
Each additional owned keep provides a 5% bonus, each missing / lost keep has a 5% penalty.
We will monitor the effect of this closely and, depending on what happens, potentially act quickly here. The action could be the removal of the penalty or reduction of the % or even the removal of this incentive entirely.

For the next while we will also focus on fixing bugs surrounding keep warfare and finally introduce the missing patrols, further we will also take another look at the relic system.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:58 PM by Fore29

Mid is already ~44% of the level 50 population by 10pm ET, are we trying to breach 50%? The underpopulation bonus needs to be massively increased to compensate for change #2.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:06 PM by Zayron

If the 44% thing is true then maybe more keep guards for underpopulated realms would be cool or something like that hrmm. Just thinking out loud.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:16 PM by cere2

I dig it. Let's give it a shot and see what happens. Only thing I will say is this quote "the purpose of these changes is not to make keeps the end all be all of RvR"
might not be open-minded enough about what good keep warfare does or did for daoc. I mean, there is no end all be all of Daoc. That's what makes it great. Always changing power. I am sure most of the team knows exactly what I mean.

Are you guys possibly looking into porting to at least certain keeps for defense etc?

Once again, big thanks to all on the entire phoenix team for trying to make this shard even more awesome than it is....

Ceremon

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:17 PM by keen

Bonus rp and penalties sound like zerg realm will grow bigger and bigger.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:27 PM by Ardri

This will change nothing. People will always choose the easiest way to get the most RPs. And right now the easiest way is to just go to the deathmatch task zone and collect free participation rps. As long as this is an option no one will do anything else. You need to drastically reduce these RPs or make the keep task be a stand a lone task like the previous iteration.

Another crucial point:
Relics then Keeps then Caravans; they are all tied to each other. You nerfed relics into the ground, made them impossible to keep, and then wonder why no one engages in keep warfare? This in turn makes keeps worthless, which then in turn makes caravans worthless.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:27 PM by Aervine

Zayron wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:06 PM
If the 44% thing is true then maybe more keep guards for underpopulated realms would be cool or something like that hrmm. Just thinking out loud.

This idea is pretty neat, maybe even expand it to the level/difficulty of the keep guards and amount of them is tied to the amount of keeps you own. More keeps less and/or weaker guards defending them (forces spread out) fewer keeps more/tougher guards defending those.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:35 PM by Hledjolf

Ardri wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:27 PM
This will change nothing. People will always choose the easiest way to get the most RPs. And right now the easiest way is to just go to the deathmatch task zone and collect free participation rps. As long as this is an option no one will do anything else. You need to drastically reduce these RPs or make the keep task be a stand a lone task like the previous iteration.

Another crucial point:
Relics then Keeps then Caravans; they are all tied to each other. You nerfed relics into the ground, made them impossible to keep, and then wonder why no one engages in keep warfare? This in turn makes keeps worthless, which then in turn makes caravans worthless.

Pretty much this.

Relis back in Reli keeps. Make the Reli Keep guards a must have.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:40 PM by Ownnyn

I hope this works, but i don't think it will.

So to encourage players to take/retake the keeps, you'll give bonuses/penalties for possession. Doesn't that encourage players to take empty keeps? Since its the possession that's important, not the take/defense?

I like the better rewards for fighting over keeps but its such a small number to begin with the pool modifiers would need to break x10 before their rps would really be worth while. Or get lucky with massive keep defense which are few and far between because the core mechanics of the keep system is flawed here.

I just feel like were trying to put frosting on shit and call it a cup cake.

I hope it works, truly do.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:40 PM by chryso

Number of level 50 players != number of players in rvr.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by BaldEagle

I welcome any changes to test and see how things go.

I still think the best way is to make RPs similar to how PvE mob types work. If all the action is in Emain... then its a +0% RPs bonus there, but maybe a different zone, say CG, has a 10% or such. This way maybe it will spread the action out a little more?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:45 PM by Ardri

And the 5% bonus/penalty per keep. Again, this will not change players actions. It’s like the underpop bonus. No one switches realm because of this. You just give a massive RP bonus to whichever realm is doing an SI dungeon raid.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:51 PM by Pedro

I like the changes, but the second part will need to be monitored.

I understand the reasoning behind it, to force more players/bg to take and defend, but it can also give the biggest realm, or the realm that RvR's the most will more than likely hold the most keeps the longest and get stronger with bigger RP bonus, so it will be in essence making the strong, stronger.

But I've enjoyed everything about the server and how the GM's do look at issues and act quickly to fix or try to balance (sometimes doesn't work and they revert) the server for more fun. So I have faith

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:55 PM by Waygone

Zayron wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:06 PM
If the 44% thing is true then maybe more keep guards for underpopulated realms would be cool or something like that hrmm. Just thinking out loud.

Dont think that's the answer since they're toned done to mob level difficulty. Essentially it will just give the dominating realm even more RPs with guard kill tasks..

Please DON'T do this!

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:01 PM by Ownnyn

Less and Less faith.

The solution isn't always throw out more bonuses. The keep relic system is a dynamic system balanced beyond how many rps you get for taking a keep. That system was utterly destroyed by the custom server changes. Trying to fix it with bonuses shows lack of understanding with how it was broke.

Let me phrase it this way. Keeps and Relics are...or atleast should be directly linked. A fix must take both aspects into account. Not doing so will have limited results.

To be clear...I'm not against the changes. I just don't think it will have the impact you want.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:03 PM by Sepplord

really intresting changes, the downsides/risks you have already mentioned, and promised that you are closely monitoring...so not much to add in that regard.

Regarding the discussion of population, i feel like too many people do not know about the /u command, which will show (among else) the lvl50 population IN THE FRONTIER. At least in EU primetime midgard has never been even close to being 40% afaik. Is that purely a US thing or misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the data?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:28 PM by Aervine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:03 PM
really intresting changes, the downsides/risks you have already mentioned, and promised that you are closely monitoring...so not much to add in that regard.

Regarding the discussion of population, i feel like too many people do not know about the /u command, which will show (among else) the lvl50 population IN THE FRONTIER. At least in EU primetime midgard has never been even close to being 40% afaik. Is that purely a US thing or misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the data?

During US primetime Sunday night it was ~230 mids, ~130 hibs, ~120 albs for the level 50s in frontier section of /underpop. Last night when I checked it was much more even with I believe at one time hib having the majority. I love this command to get a quick snapshot of what the action should look like honestly.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by Luluko

not a fan of the rp bonus when having keeps this will like you fear will bring a snowball effect that people which have toons in multiple realms check which realm has the most keeps before they decide on their realm this day, it should just be more feathers or bps if you add new skins it would be useful

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:47 PM by Frigzy

Very clunky way of addressing the keep warfare system imo.

One very very basic aspect has not been addressed by the way; the message you get when a keep gets taken. Just three lines of notiffication and no horn sound? If you want to make keep takes more impactful, improving the keeptake message itself is something not to be overlooked.

Other than that I agree that this looks like bad game design from the start and simply working with incentives will prove a better solution imo.

I've written an extensive post on RvR tasks in general, keep tasks included but it seems none of those ideas were considered in the least... (https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5724&p=38157#p37578)

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:54 PM by Antiloop

I remember back in the days..this game was about good team setup, and teamfight..., now all i hear on discord and ingame..is i how much RP i am grinding"...that s a shame, really a shame. This awesome game is still good, gamers aren t.
my 2 cents

Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:27 PM by Milchschnidde

I would like to see unclaimed keeps start automatic at lvl 5, to be not so easy to take..
claimed keeps start also at level 5. So hunting for Supply patrols makes more sense to lower the keep defense..
Just my thoughts about.. it

Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:51 PM by Quathan

Perhaps an increasing bonus for the time you can hold the majority of the keeps.. Like Bounty Point increased every hour and exp bonus in Darkness Falls... That may even be appealing for ppl that exp to relog their higher level toon to join their realm in defense of holding the majority keep hold.

Just a quick thought off top of my head... Anyways I love Darkness Falls so anything that would make it more appealing to hold/take is a plus in my book

Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:56 PM by Nehm

I simply don't understand why the keeps and relics can't work like real DAOC? (Besides the fact that the relic bonus is not 10%) I like the task system and some of the custom things, but the keeps and relics were so much more fun on Uthgard where there every day/night was a keep taking BG. It actually made the Realms work together, here there is atm nothing like that except groups running together to counter zerg. At the moment any self made one person guild can claim a keep, and there is no reason whatsoever to claim them. Nor to defend them; the doors of even a lvl 10 keep goes down in a few seconds with 30 trolls on it.

Make the keeps work like the real game, being able to spend guild BPs upgrading keep and wood to upgrade the doors separatly. And the guards really needs to be scripted, atm many of them stand starring into the wall (worst case here is the relic guards), and there are no patrolling guard squads etc.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:01 PM by darthenron

I just want to say how amazing this development team is, and the fact that they are even looking into enhancing the way we look at castles.

However, I’m concerned with the ‘Incentives’ listed will actually make castles become the next new zerg/task system. Where the same castles will constantly switch hands between realms to maintain a high level of activity around them.

The problems with castles are how boring they are, and how quickly a zerg can swoop in and take the lord. Sticking around to defend it is boring since an enemy zerg would just move onto the next undefended castle.

Instead of focusing on adding more ‘incentives’ of how active they are, maybe we need to focus more on making them more rewarding for holding onto?

If there is any type of reward it should be based more on defending a claimed enemy castle (where the reward goes up based on the number of enemy castles currently claimed and the higher the castle levels), and rewarding taking back castle in your realm (where the reward is reduced based on the number of your realms castles that are lost).

The idea would be that you will always want to keep your realm castles defended and claimed, and also wanting to claim and hold onto the most enemy’s castle. Maybe even rewarding people who repair doors.

Maybe if a realm is really unable to defend, its XP should be affected to help bring more people up to level 50 faster.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:09 PM by Smoover

nope - get rid of all bonuses. and have a healthy community- remove tasks . ppl will still play or even more will come back . evry1 should have his free rr5 toon by now .

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:48 PM by defiasbandit

In addition to Realm tasks, there would be 2 new tasks. Keep tasks and Relic tasks. They will give players an alternative to realm tasks.

Keep Task

Fight over keeps in a realm. The task rotates between each frontier and starts in Hibernia. Each realm is awarded an RP bonus at the end of the task based on their entire realm's performance. The realm that owns the most keeps for the longest amount of time during the task earns the biggest RP bonus. Realms with fewer players in the task earn more points for holding keeps in the task. Visible score in /task to determine who is winning.

Relic Task

Relics can only be held in Relic Keeps instead of normal keeps. Capturing an enemy relic in the task gives your realm a 10% damage bonus. The bonus lasts until the start of the next Relic task. Have new Relic tasks trigger based on the keep tasks.

Example:

The Relic Task begins. Each realm holds their 2 relics. The relic task rotates between each Frontier. The first relic task is in Hibernia. After 1 hour, Midgard captures the Hibernia Strength Relic. Midgard would receive a 10% damage bonus to melee until the start of the next realm task. The next relic task begins in Albion. Hibernia captures the Albion Stength Relic and Midgard captures the Albion Power Relic. The task in Albion ends. Midgard now has a 10% damage bonus to Magic damage. Hibernia has a 10% damage bonus to Melee. These bonuses end when the final relic task in Midgard begins. Albion then captures the Alb and Mid power relics in Midgard and recieves a 10% bonus to magic when the task ends. Hibernia captures the Midgard strength relic in Midgard and now has a 10% damage bonus to melee until the new relic task in Hibernia begins. When the final task in Midgard ends, relics are automatically reset and returned to their home relic keeps. Then the new relic task in Hibernia begins.

Have Keep and Relic tasks in between the Realm tasks. Every 3 realm tasks there is a keep task etc.. This new system focuses the relic fights in each frontier at a time, and gives a rewarding realmwide bonus. Resetting the relics after the task rotates between each frontier, will force realms to continually fight in the relic tasks.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:18 PM by Connavar

I like these changes with the guards. Sadly it doesn't solve the problem with pets going through walls and doors. Defending a keep against classes with pets is suicide as long you are not in a group with heals. You hit a bd, the pets instantly go for you and you are dead. This is NO fun. You cannot solve the pathing? ok. Then do something to instantly kill the pets when they go through a door or wall. You can make damage walls or spawn elite guards which go for the pets and despawn when the door is breached. Its up to you to make keep fights fun but at the moment its not fun.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Prometheus

I like the change regarding the guard's health, as it was even yellow guards would be a problem so I wouldn't even attempt fighting at a keep.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:28 PM by antiflagdan

I am okay with babysteps. I do not think this will cause a shift in RvR on its own, but I am super glad they are working on this.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:29 PM by Budikah

The issue for me isn't the rewards per se, it's the horrible design of OF keeps. They aren't fun to defend in the slightest. The LoS/murderholes are pretty awful, which makes the entire experience a bit of a bore regardless of rewards.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:51 PM by cere2

Just wondering but /rw map mine always shows hib relic keeps on fire. Is this working for anyone else? Also I never see any under siege status on the map? Maybe /rw is just broken for now?

Just to note, I am not sure how hard it would be for keeps to be altered?
But right now we can't port to any keep, which means no one will be there to defend anyhow. And if groups are close to the area of the keep that is under attack, currently there's only 1 way in? Only have run around in like 3 keeps since I came over so not sure on this.
How difficult would it be to either
1.) allow porting to supply line keeps - perhaps this would conflict with the existing ports to flags...no enemy within 4k units etc...
2.) alter supply line keeps to have side entrances?

It might be that in order to really test this out they may need to consider temporary removal of current task system for a couple days, implement porting to the supply line keeps etc.
We shall see how the incentives work out, its kind of test mode at this point so I am sure they will be keeping a close eye on things. I just hope we "might" get some epic keep take/defense battles in the near future.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:56 PM by kmark101

Can you please also put in more, different rewards but rp? Mainly thinking about bounty points and cosmetics, some economical (like housing merchant 20% commission decrease if we own many keeps, some crafting bonuses, etc..)

I also agree with the poster who said that owning and upgrading a keep should totally cost merit points of the guild. I think it was a great system that's already in place?

My biggest concern with relic warfare was always the keep door repair part and the necessary funding for it... if relics are realm wide bonuses, then door repairs should be the same, but its currently up for guilds or individuals to finance it, I think it's a flaw in the system. But this could also be connected to keep takes/defenses, to create a realm-wide pool of resources that later on could be connected to relic keep door repairs.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:00 PM by Mac

Good initiative. I enjoy Keep and relic warfare. now I'll have an incentive to get others to focus more here as well.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:09 PM by labova

Budikah wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:29 PM
The issue for me isn't the rewards per se, it's the horrible design of OF keeps. They aren't fun to defend in the slightest. The LoS/murderholes are pretty awful, which makes the entire experience a bit of a bore regardless of rewards.

This is probably the biggest issue, and also one I think the devs cannot easily remedy. I prefer the OF maps, but the keeps are dreadful. While I applaud the devs for trying to improve the keep siege experience, I suspect there is little that can be done with the poor layout of the OF keeps.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:28 PM by Losse

Please let relics give relic bonus the moment they are taken or shortly after. I heard there is a long wait till they kick in, but not 100% sure how long.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:39 AM by Bumbles

Currently taking a keep for 300-500 rps is a huge waste of time. Until there is a RP incentive (Thousands of RPs) worth something Keeps will remain a ghost town.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:42 AM by Sharky04

This is the end. The midzerg won.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:22 AM by Lasastard

Frankly, I don't think you can fix keeps within the oF setting. It's a pure numbers game; which is why it is good they got rid of relic keeps - there are so many fundamental problems with how OF keeps work, I don't think it is solvable by incentives. The fact alone that everyone has to squeeze through a narrow gate gives defenders such a tremendous advantage; animist pets as one very important example; LOS as another.

NF with some sensible tasks, that I can see working out well (minus the sheer size, but teleports would be able to mitigate that problem). But then you are back to "nostalgia versus good gameplay", can't have both, I don't think (and I am over nostalgia^^).

That said, the changes seem reasonable given the setting we have. It's a work in progress, I'm sure.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:30 PM by waffel

Keep hills need to be flattened some, and NF keeps put in the OF keep places. I'm not sure the devs are capable of that kind of work, modifying existing zones like that. That being said, it looks like we're stuck with the terrible keep design of OF since the backlash from putting in NF will ruffle a lot of nerd's feathers.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:51 PM by Muradin

I understand some people want NF, but of is just stright up better for open world rvr, so if a downside of OF is that keeps are struggleing to be relevant, then I can live with that. I think keeps being better would make my rvr experence more enjoyable, but I know for a fact that if the keeps stayed the same, it wouldnt effect me. I would be interested to see if it would be possible to add nf keeps to OF . I have no idea if something like that is even possible, or even realistic for a team that is doing this in their spare time.

As far as the other changes, I think the devs summed it up great and im interested to see how it goes.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:03 PM by Muradin

waffel wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Keep hills need to be flattened some, and NF keeps put in the OF keep places. I'm not sure the devs are capable of that kind of work, modifying existing zones like that. That being said, it looks like we're stuck with the terrible keep design of OF since the backlash from putting in NF will ruffle a lot of nerd's feathers.

Id rather good rvr and shitty keeps then good keeps shitty rvr. I think the majority of the player base agrees with me, hence we have of. Also to be fair if you want to play with nf keeps, you can just log on live and get your fix there., where as I dont have a realistic alternative to play of.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 PM by cere2

Muradin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
waffel wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Keep hills need to be flattened some, and NF keeps put in the OF keep places. I'm not sure the devs are capable of that kind of work, modifying existing zones like that. That being said, it looks like we're stuck with the terrible keep design of OF since the backlash from putting in NF will ruffle a lot of nerd's feathers.

Id rather good rvr and shitty keeps then good keeps shitty rvr. I think the majority of the player base agrees with me, hence we have of. Also to be fair if you want to play with nf keeps, you can just log on live and get your fix there., where as I dont have a realistic alternative to play of.

Perhaps I am in the minority here but I also would like NF keeps. OF would be fine if they could implement NF keeps to OF world. Like many have said, most of us have no clue as to if that's even possible and how hard it would be. If it is possible though, oh what a wonderful world it would be!

Either way, much appreciation to all devs even considering our desires.

BTW no alternative, Live is....dead.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:47 PM by Pbuck

This is a disaster

I dont need to beta test this to understand that penalizing the weak realm with 30% less rp, will drive the remaining players away. Also 30% bonus rp to midgard when its already overcrowded ?
Also a reminder. I don't really care about keep takes . I didn't care on live, I didn't care on Uth 1 and I most certainly didn't care on Uth 2. Keeps in old frontiers are pretty much terrible, due to horrible los and lack of things to do , both for melee and casters. Penalizing me for not adhering to a specific gameplay that I ( and many others) consider terrible won't change my mind, on this. Having the option to either quit the server/game or keep raid, I will always pick the first one. If some people LIKE keep raids, all the power to them, but this has nothing to do with me. So , why am i getting a penalty?
Does the text on this msg make any sense whatsoever ? :

On the one hand, I'm getting a bonus for being in an underpop realm and at the SAME time the underpop realm who will most likely have less keeps, gets punished for lacking those keeps. I enjoyed 95% of the changes you made here, and props to you for the great server SO FAR,but this is pure nonsense and has no place in the game.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:55 PM by defiasbandit

Pbuck wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:47 PM
This is a disaster
I dont need to beta test this to understand that penalizing the weak realm with 30% less rp, will drive the remaining players away. Also 30% bonus rp to midgard when its already overcrowded ?

R.I.P. Albion.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:13 PM by Muradin

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
Muradin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
waffel wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Keep hills need to be flattened some, and NF keeps put in the OF keep places. I'm not sure the devs are capable of that kind of work, modifying existing zones like that. That being said, it looks like we're stuck with the terrible keep design of OF since the backlash from putting in NF will ruffle a lot of nerd's feathers.

Id rather good rvr and shitty keeps then good keeps shitty rvr. I think the majority of the player base agrees with me, hence we have of. Also to be fair if you want to play with nf keeps, you can just log on live and get your fix there., where as I dont have a realistic alternative to play of.

Perhaps I am in the minority here but I also would like NF keeps. OF would be fine if they could implement NF keeps to OF world. Like many have said, most of us have no clue as to if that's even possible and how hard it would be. If it is possible though, oh what a wonderful world it would be!

Either way, much appreciation to all devs even considering our desires.

BTW no alternative, Live is....dead.

So I think we are all on the same page about nf keeps in an of world, and how we love the devs. When I thought about the fact that you could play on live, i realized I guess I could play on uth, but then I said "nawww pops dead", which then lead me to realizing live is basically the same thing hahaha.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:35 PM by Pops999

"nawww pops dead"

Hey now!

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM by

gruenesschaf

What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM by defiasbandit

Why not just make a task for capturing keeps and hand out RP bonuses to the realms that capture/control the most keeps during the task.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:40 PM by defiasbandit

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM
What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.

Why take away RP from players, especially if their realm is already outnumbered.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by keen

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM
What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.

The problem is that this benefits the realm with the highest rvr population. A healthy server has 1/3 population each, this change is buffing the biggest realm and hence steers the server out of balance instead of the opposite.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:42 PM by defiasbandit

Is there any downside to playing Midgard now?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:43 PM by Pops999

All well good, but Mid is still getting stronger. While the time I played , it was -30%. Zero incentive to play.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:50 PM by

gruenesschaf

keen wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:41 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM
What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.
The problem is that this benefits the realm with the highest rvr population. A healthy server has 1/3 population each, this change is buffing the biggest realm and hence steers the server out of balance instead of the opposite.

Either keeps have some impact to the point that they are worth taking, which has the danger of making people switch over, or they have no impact and basically nobody will do keeps.

The only middle ground would be to increase the direct reward of taking keeps but then people will feel forced to do keeps for rp/h which would heavily encourage pve only keep circle raiding.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:55 PM by defiasbandit

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:41 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM
What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.
The problem is that this benefits the realm with the highest rvr population. A healthy server has 1/3 population each, this change is buffing the biggest realm and hence steers the server out of balance instead of the opposite.

Either keeps have some impact to the point that they are worth taking, which has the danger of making people switch over, or they have no impact and basically nobody will do keeps.

The only middle ground would be to increase the direct reward of taking keeps but then people will feel forced to do keeps and it would heavily encourage pve only keep circle raiding.

Direct reward is better. Why punish an entire realm with less rp gain? That discourages players from playing, instead of encouraging them to retake keeps. All this will do is widen the gap between the strongest and weakest realm.

There should be a Keep task to break up the monotony of the realm tasks. Have it rotate between each frontier. Just award each realm RP for holding/capturing keeps in the task and make it a competition. Have underpopulation bonuses for the weakest realm, so even if they lose the task, if they control a few keeps they get a bonus. That will force players to fight over them. Holding and taking keeps would contribute to the pool. The realm that contributes the most points wins the task.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:29 PM by Chamie

Possibly the worst change you´ve made so far. If you wanna force keep fights, sure I understnad reasons for that but at least make the RP bonus of having keeps way less significant than it is right now. Currently hibs have -30% RPs and mids have +30%. That is MASSIVE. 2% per keep is enough.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:30 PM by Azrael

I do not get it. You always said you want all kind of playstyles. Now you are forcing ppl to raid/def if they wanna avoid the malus. That is really ridiculous.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:41 PM by Lykurg

Chamie wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:29 PM
Possibly the worst change you´ve made so far. If you wanna force keep fights, sure I understnad reasons for that but at least make the RP bonus of having keeps way less significant than it is right now. Currently hibs have -30% RPs and mids have +30%. That is MASSIVE. 2% per keep is enough.

+1

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:41 PM by Quathan

Hope you alter the bonus/find a new way to get your goal about keep involvement done.. otherwise I'm afraid its gonna be one realm server real fast..

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:51 PM by Glenfiddich83

Quathan wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:41 PM
Hope you alter the bonus/find a new way to get your goal about keep involvement done.. otherwise I'm afraid its gonna be one realm server real fast..

Yeah. Our grp already discussing to leave our Realm and join mid.. so i can confirm your statement...

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:52 PM by dbeattie71

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:42 PM
Is there any downside to playing Midgard now?

Good time to start my shammy/skald/bd.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:00 PM by hellcon

Any able to post a screen cap of the patch notes from past week?

Thank you

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:20 PM by Amorphium

maybe introduce an xp and feather penalty along with the rp penalty, that will surely get the underpop realm out to take back keeps.

/s just in case

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:20 PM by Rasmus_np

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:38 PM
What a disaster, giving keeps some value that people actually care about makes them raid keeps.

No, it forces people to raid keeps..

Personally I find keep rading very dull, seems to be the consensus from my guild as well, but I wouldn't bother starting a roaming guild grp either, not with a potential massive 30% penalty.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:23 PM by defiasbandit

Boooooooo

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:28 PM by waffel

Currently over 200 more Mids online than Hibs. Mids also with a 20% RP bonus. I am completely shocked.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:29 PM by Riac

i dont understand why these set guild groups want to leave their under popped realm, thats just more ppl for you to farm, make a caster extend group and put the zerg on farm.

i just so happen to be midgard, but if the shoe were on the other foot i wouldnt leave. so id get -30% rps, but half the fun is killing ppl, rps is just the reward you get for doing so. that being said, 30% does seem extremely high.

how many rps do you get for killing someone in a zerg or an 8 man? 70-200? 30% of that isnt very big and is more than made up for in the freebie tasks. seems like this would penalize solos and small mans the most.

it seems to me the only reason ppl want keeps to be important is to break up the zerg. if youre in an 8 man you could just take it upon yourself to not run with the zerg. the more ppl that dont do it the smaller it will be. perhaps dont join zerg groups?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:30 PM by Connavar

Less keeps, less rp. More keeps, more rp. Or should i say, stronger realm, more rp? You made the relics useless to prevent strong realms become stronger and then you make such a big change with the keeps.

Make us able to port into the keeps. Then the people with raid the keeps without making a realm stronger. Remove the flags in the task zones. Remove the task zones and let the people decide where they want to roam.

As long you cannot give us new frontiers just think a moment which features of new frontiers you can implement here without much work.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:33 PM by Riac

Connavar wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
Less keeps, less rp. More keeps, more rp. Or should i say, stronger realm, more rp? You made the relics useless to prevent strong realms become stronger and then you make such a big change with the keeps.

Make us able to port into the keeps. Then the people with raid the keeps without making a realm stronger. Remove the flags in the task zones. Remove the task zones and let the people decide where they want to roam.

i agree the flags are a bit stupid and i dont mess with them, im an sb and just sit at amg all day. however, i do like the idea of porting into keeps much more than porting into the middle of no where flags.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:55 PM by Bumbles

OF keeps are HORRIBLE! I don't get what you GMs don't understand about that. RvRing at them is the worst, there is a reason they changed them to NF keeps. But given this is what is here and you are basically forcing people to partake in an aspect of OF that is outdated and not fun at all you could at least give a global notice(similar to relic keeps) when keeps are under attack so that people who are not in HUGE alliance with the guilds that claim them can know what is actually happening and try to defend. Just think you guys missed the mark on this one.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:57 PM by Bumbles

If they could make Old Frontiers with New Frontier style keeps all would be right in the world imo.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:58 PM by Pops999

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:29 PM
i just so happen to be midgard, but if the shoe were on the other foot i wouldnt leave. so id get -30% rps, but half the fun is killing ppl, rps is just the reward you get for doing so.

LOL. Right.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:00 PM by defiasbandit

Pops999 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:58 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:29 PM
i just so happen to be midgard, but if the shoe were on the other foot i wouldnt leave. so id get -30% rps, but half the fun is killing ppl, rps is just the reward you get for doing so.

LOL. Right.

Ahahaha

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:13 PM by Riac

laugh all you'd like, i didnt reroll once it was found out sbs are out the receiving end of the sins, and im pretty sure you know what i mean by receiving. just cuz there is increased rps is pretty irrelevant to me. i wish theyd just take the keep bonus away and turn off the tasks since thats all this shit is about. the keep warfare sucks and it always has, even with nf keeps the shit was still lame af. ppl just think this is a good alternative to the zerging, which really doesnt seem true to me. its just going to be casters and archers hitting ppl while everyone sits outside or inside. its going to be about as much fun as sitting at the mg when one of the realms zergs has it bottle necked up. the real fun is in 8 man, small man, or stealth.

would you still be here and killing ppl if there were no rps? i would, its fun imo.

and as far as ppl wanting the nf keeps in of, i think this was mentions in a prev thread and the problem with that is the keeps themselves are part of the actual map or something.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:49 PM by Bry

Pbuck wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:47 PM
This is a disaster
I dont need to beta test this to understand that penalizing the weak realm with 30% less rp, will drive the remaining players away. Also 30% bonus rp to midgard when its already overcrowded ?
Also a reminder. I don't really care about keep takes . I didn't care on live, I didn't care on Uth 1 and I most certainly didn't care on Uth 2. Keeps in old frontiers are pretty much terrible, due to horrible los and lack of things to do , both for melee and casters. Penalizing me for not adhering to a specific gameplay that I ( and many others) consider terrible won't change my mind, on this. Having the option to either quit the server/game or keep raid, I will always pick the first one. If some people LIKE keep raids, all the power to them, but this has nothing to do with me. So , why am i getting a penalty?
Does the text on this msg make any sense whatsoever ? :
On the one hand, I'm getting a bonus for being in an underpop realm and at the SAME time the underpop realm who will most likely have less keeps, gets punished for lacking those keeps. I enjoyed 95% of the changes you made here, and props to you for the great server SO FAR,but this is pure nonsense and has no place in the game.

Pbuck said it best. No reason to PENALIZE an underpopulated realm. Its already tough enough playing against the odds and numbers, but now the underpop realm also gets less reward for playing there. People are motivated by rewards. When the incentive is removed and a pentalty is added, people tend to stop doing whatever that thing is. If a realm is underpopulated, and there is no hope, people leave. They will either go to another realm or leave the game entirely.

Adding a bonus for having a certain number of keeps is fine. 5% per keep is too much. 1-2% per keep is more realistic. Having a penalty is just another way to oppress the underpop realm. Until then, time to reroll Mid. When the populations numbers are so far out of balance because of these penaltys, it'll start to make sense.

Remove the RP penalty for keeps.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:11 PM by whoelse

Penalizing underpopulated realms for not keeping up is a great way to encourage players to leave them.

bonuses should only exist for realms that are not the most populated.

penalties should only exist for the most populated realms.

-+5% per keep is far too severe.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:14 PM by Nikse

whoelse wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:11 PM
Penalizing underpopulated realms for not keeping up is a great way to encourage players to leave them.

agree,
pls revert...

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 PM by wyan69

The Negative realm points for not having your own keeps is making me NOT want to log on and play, please revert or make it so its 0% so you dont have a bonus.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:09 AM by Festers

[attachment=0]rp_bonus.PNG[/attachment]

This was taken shortly after the patch. Had 6 more kills similar to this within the next 30 mins or so - as such I missed out on approx 2.1k RPs compared to before the patch. I logged out shortly after because of this.

I can appreciate giving a bonus to a realm that has more than 7 keeps - but to punish realm for having less than 7? Not so good.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:39 AM by dante`afk

Lmao, what a bad change. You are getting punished for not zerging now? Negative RPs ???

Just wow.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:59 AM by Spewy

Negative RP is the worst idea what you never had guys like by far.

That sucks, and I am playing on Mid +30% atm.

No reason for negative realm to roam amymore.

I wasnt expecting that Pheonix became a server focused on keep’s & lords.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:40 AM by Stoertebecker

Spewy wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:59 AM
Negative RP is the worst idea what you never had guys like by far.

That sucks, and I am playing on Mid +30% atm.

No reason for negative realm to roam amymore.

I wasnt expecting that Pheonix became a server focused on keep’s & lords.

We had -35% on Mid before we were raiding keeps in Albion. If you don`t want to have Midgard such a high bonus defend your fkkn keeps.
Midgard took 4 keeps in Alb with 1,5fg, thats far from zerging, imho. No defenders tho.

There were enough ppl complaining about that keeps have no meaning, now they have and the same ppl are still complaining, just after this patch went live 10h ago.

No facepalm emote her, or?

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:53 AM by sebbo

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
We had -35% on Mid before we were raiding keeps in Albion. If you don`t want to have Midgard such a high bonus defend your fkkn keeps.
Midgard took 4 keeps in Alb with 1,5fg, thats far from zerging, imho. No defenders tho.

There were enough ppl complaining about that keeps have no meaning, now they have and the same ppl are still complaining, just after this patch went live 10h ago.

No facepalm emote her, or?

1,5 fg were taking keeps, while 3 fgs were roaming to farm possible defenders. And maybe im blind, drunk or whatever, but in hib, the guardspam said 50+ players. Maybe, still no zerg? rofl

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:56 AM by defiasbandit

Apparently, the negative bonus is gone.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:22 AM by dante`afk

All those changes just promote zerg. Again and again. No one runs around in lesser prominent areas.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:31 AM by defiasbandit

The removal of the negative bonus is good. Overall the keep changes are better. Good job phoenix,

Sat 23 Mar 2019 6:42 AM by Stoertebecker

sebbo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:53 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
We had -35% on Mid before we were raiding keeps in Albion. If you don`t want to have Midgard such a high bonus defend your fkkn keeps.
Midgard took 4 keeps in Alb with 1,5fg, thats far from zerging, imho. No defenders tho.

There were enough ppl complaining about that keeps have no meaning, now they have and the same ppl are still complaining, just after this patch went live 10h ago.

No facepalm emote her, or?

1,5 fg were taking keeps, while 3 fgs were roaming to farm possible defenders. And maybe im blind, drunk or whatever, but in hib, the guardspam said 50+ players. Maybe, still no zerg? rofl

Maybe different times? Albion wasn`t the task zone as we were raiding, so i doubt there were another 3 fg.
Problems with counting? Even 1,5 fg + 3 fg`s are not 50+

Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:09 AM by cloudbased

Let us camp in keeps we own and log in to defend them - 1.65 removed this by porting you out the instant a keep door took damage. No one liked having a group camped out in the lord room log in to an enemy controlled keep to snipe it without ever busting down the door so that was a positive aspect of the change and should remain (booted if camped in enemy controlled keep) but we should absolutely let players camp their mains, or alts in a keep.

RvR was its own reward, and attacking a keep -- especially guild controlled -- meant guaranteed battle against players in the siege to follow. It was like sending a global broadcast to those inside their realm leveling alts "Come and play!" and vice versa. This change made taking keeps a mostly snoozefest PvE experience... and an unrewarding one at that since you probably wouldn't be defending it either... easier to retake it when it was empty later than to try to get in past the zerg to actually defend it.

No other change to keeps is going to encourage keep battles the way this will.

October 8, 2003
------------------------

Players who attempt to log in near a frontier keep or relic keep that is "under attack" or owned by an enemy realm will now be moved to a "safe point". "Under attack" is defined as when the doors are actively taking damage or are completely broken open. The safe point for attackers is the portal keep of the enemy frontier they are in. The safe point for defenders is the border keep with the portal pad of the frontier they are defending.

Note that players who go linkdead near a frontier will have a 10 minute "window" during which they can log back in without being moved to the safe point.

Revert this terrible change but keep the "or owned by an enemy realm" part and you will have a great start to reviving keep battles.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 9:39 AM by Aladdin

I was never around when New Frontiers launched
If they decided to completely remodel and rework the frontiers to New Frontiers then surely that meant something was wrong?
If this is the case then can someone explain why we are playing in Old Frontiers as appose to New? If OF had inerrant problems then wouldn't it have made more sense to have NF on Phoenix?

Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:29 PM by Smufr

Aladdin wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 9:39 AM
I was never around when New Frontiers launched
If they decided to completely remodel and rework the frontiers to New Frontiers then surely that meant something was wrong?
If this is the case then can someone explain why we are playing in Old Frontiers as appose to New? If OF had inerrant problems then wouldn't it have made more sense to have NF on Phoenix?

Using that logic, why not make Phoenix current with live?

Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by Frigzy

Penalty removal was definitely necessary. It seems ok now, even though I personally feel there could be more creativity in supporting every playstyle to mesh together well.

Anyway, please

Please

Please

Add a realm wide Horn Sound and at least 6 lines of chat when a keep is taken. I've played with about 16 keeps swapping realms and noticed maybe 2 of those keeptakes in my chatlog...

Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:59 AM by Connavar

The intention is good but the results are still poor. People are now raiding empty keeps. Noone defends. Circle raiding like in warhammer. And as i already said earlier, the rp bonus makes the bigger realms stronger. With this short realm switch timer people will just switch.

Mon 25 Mar 2019 1:54 AM by Budikah

Aladdin wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 9:39 AM
I was never around when New Frontiers launched
If they decided to completely remodel and rework the frontiers to New Frontiers then surely that meant something was wrong?
If this is the case then can someone explain why we are playing in Old Frontiers as appose to New? If OF had inerrant problems then wouldn't it have made more sense to have NF on Phoenix?

I figure they went through the mental grind of trying to figure out how to make a central part of their game - keep warfare - actually fun. They likely realized that the OF Keep design is just untenable and not going to serve the purpose.

I don't have too much to say above OF vs NF in terms of size/landscape - but the keep design of OF just isn't going to get anywhere. No matter how relevant you try to make them, and how many rewards you stack up - it isn't going to solve the endless frustrations that come with them.

- Inability to effectively defend due to LoS issues.
- Attacking something while being guard spammed is obnoxious - although this depends on the tuning of said guards.
- Being shot endlessly by the keep lord with arrows through walls is everyone's favorite DAoC memory, right?
- Lack of diversity, access doors, etc.
- Lack of meaningful things to do for many players during said siege.

My more recent interactions with the keeps on the live server at least had people popping out of postern doors to combat outside defenders, people coming and going in and out, multiple angles with LoS to attackers inside that are actually somewhat advantageous to defenders, breakable walls, etc.

Until interacting with keeps becomes a fun activity, it's just going to be bribing people to sit in traffic. It's going to feel like a chore. You get a reward, which is nice, but was the act in itself enjoyable enough to seek out sans reward?

Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:25 AM by Jingo NZ

General changes:
Good changes. Could be made even better with better keep LOS and geometry, postern door, flatter keep hills but quite a lot of work.

Incentives:
1) Increasing reward for continued keep fights
OK. Might not need this once the suggestion below is implemented

2) Realm wide rp bonus / penalty based on keep ownership
Underwhelming. RP rewards will make this feel like a necessity/chore with obvious RP gain advantages to the overpopulated realm.

Here’s an alternative system that would work as an incentive 2)
Keep task system

For 4 hours one realm is the location of the Keep task

Every keep taken in this realm is worth a bonus (RP/gold/BP/feathers)

If you take a keep during the task, you get a bonus (RP/gold/BP/feathers) based on the duration that it continues to be held by your realm during the task. The bonus ramps up exponentially with time. The bonus is given when the keep is lost or at the end of the 4 hours

Everyone in your realm who has contributed to the Keep task is awarded a bonus (RP/gold/BP/feathers) at the end of the task based on realm keep ownership at the 4 hour mark (only).
After the keep task there is a 1 hour break before the rotation of the 4 hour Keep task to the next frontier.

The keep task is run concurrently to the Realm Task. EG:
12:00 Realm task invade Hibernia, Keep task invade Hibernia
1:00 Realm task invade Albion, Keep task invade Hibernia
2:00 Realm task invade Midgard, Keep task invade Hibernia
3:00 Realm task invade Hibernia, Keep task invade Hibernia
4:00 Realm task invade Albion, 1 hour Keep task break
5:00 Realm task invade Midgard, Keep task invade Midgard

The action in the 4th hour of the Keep task will be heightened with each realm rushing to secure as many keeps as possible before the task closes.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:14 PM by leb

i think malus for rp's was a good idea, at least for wake up hibernia who cry all the day for got a leader.
you should reactive this malus or to propose a vote about it.
And for me the timer of 12 hours for changing realm is too low

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:03 PM by waffel

Hibs problem isn’t leadership.

Do /serverinfo and of the top 15 classes played you’ll see at most 3 hib classes. Those classes are always:
Animist
Ranger
Nightshade

1 farming, non RvR class. 2 stealth non-group classes.

The realm isn’t ever going to get anything done with those numbers, and explains why everyone is leaving. Much easier to play overpop Mid, or Alb where you can farm 15k feathers in Sidi in an hour which makes temping way easier.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:51 PM by dbeattie71

waffel wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:03 PM
Hibs problem isn’t leadership.

Do /serverinfo and of the top 15 classes played you’ll see at most 3 hib classes. Those classes are always:
Animist
Ranger
Nightshade

1 farming, non RvR class. 2 stealth non-group classes.

The realm isn’t ever going to get anything done with those numbers, and explains why everyone is leaving. Much easier to play overpop Mid, or Alb where you can farm 15k feathers in Sidi in an hour which makes temping way easier.

15k really? No wonder feathers in hib are expensive.

Tue 9 Apr 2019 7:46 PM by jhaerik

sebbo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:53 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
We had -35% on Mid before we were raiding keeps in Albion. If you don`t want to have Midgard such a high bonus defend your fkkn keeps.
Midgard took 4 keeps in Alb with 1,5fg, thats far from zerging, imho. No defenders tho.

There were enough ppl complaining about that keeps have no meaning, now they have and the same ppl are still complaining, just after this patch went live 10h ago.

No facepalm emote her, or?

1,5 fg were taking keeps, while 3 fgs were roaming to farm possible defenders. And maybe im blind, drunk or whatever, but in hib, the guardspam said 50+ players. Maybe, still no zerg? rofl

Considering Mordred runs around nightly taking keeps with 1-2fg's and never see a soul.... yeh it's on you guys to defend.

Made 30k rp on my new shammy alt off keeps the other day and saw a total of 1 Valewalker all night.

This is WHY we need NF folks. NOONE likes OF keeps.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 1:41 PM by dudis

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 7:46 PM
This is WHY we need NF folks. NOONE likes OF keeps.

I agree that NF would be nice, but another change that could be made (if technically possible) is to use the OF relic keeps on all keep spots instead of the current ones.

The relic keeps have way better walls for defenders and it has frickin postern doors so defenders can actually get inside. Crazy right?

Wed 10 Apr 2019 2:48 PM by Boric

I think we have started to come to a point that the entire system needs to be scratched and restart from the beginning. There has been way too many band-aids in the keep/relic/task world.

Issue #1: Dev's did not want the Relics to be too strong (which would cause mass influx of players to 'winning' realm).
Resolution: Made Relics slowly scale to provide the bonus, and made the bonus much weaker.

Issue #2: **On Beta** Only a select 1 guild tested and rotated taking relics on each realm. People claimed that no one cared about Relics and one realm on Beta would hold all 6 at a time until the 1 guild switched sides to test and retake.
Resolution: Made Relics have to go in a normal keep which made re-capturing them way too easy.

Couple Issue #1 & Issue #2 and we run into the next set of issues. Now that Relics take way to long to 'power up' and are recaptured in the same day, if not in a couple hours people have stopped caring about Relics again (except for title). As a result of no one caring about relics, no one cares about keeps.

Issue #3: No one cares about keeps as they are pointless (relics are pointless) and DF has been made relatively pointless with all the other changes (XP mobs elsewhere giving huge %% bonus, SI raids for feathers ect.)
Resolution: Gave RP bonuses to realms that have more keeps (typically the realm with higher population).

This all rolls back into Issue #1 of people moving to the realm with the Bonus. I know many people who only play for 1-2 hours an evening who will check in discord the bonuses before logging in (and who have a 50 on each realm). If Albion has +30% RP, they will log on their Albion character. Even though the population may be giving the other realms a 10-20% underdog bonus to RPs, it is much easier being the 'winning' realm at the time.

There are many other items that fit in between these major issues. I think it is time to revert back to stage 1 and rethink what the end goal is.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:08 PM by Tool73

"We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare"

my first suggestion for this: maybe u should revamp shrooms unable to cast trough doors and walls or be set into courtyard/Keeptowers without any LOS.....

Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:00 AM by Sepplord

Tool73 wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
"We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare"

my first suggestion for this: maybe u should revamp shrooms unable to cast trough doors and walls or be set into courtyard/Keeptowers without any LOS.....

because hib is getting overpopulated and is dominating the Keep-taking-scene? Oo

Could you please explain how you think that your suggestion is linked with the quoted from the announcement?

Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:43 AM by Tool73

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:00 AM
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
"We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare"

my first suggestion for this: maybe u should revamp shrooms unable to cast trough doors and walls or be set into courtyard/Keeptowers without any LOS.....

because hib is getting overpopulated and is dominating the Keep-taking-scene? Oo

Could you please explain how you think that your suggestion is linked with the quoted from the announcement?

cause IF hibs are involved in keep taking or defending, they ARE dominating, thats the cause....u just simple count the raids per day hibs do not so much?

Thu 11 Apr 2019 11:18 AM by Sepplord

Tool73 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:00 AM
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
"We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare"

my first suggestion for this: maybe u should revamp shrooms unable to cast trough doors and walls or be set into courtyard/Keeptowers without any LOS.....

because hib is getting overpopulated and is dominating the Keep-taking-scene? Oo

Could you please explain how you think that your suggestion is linked with the quoted from the announcement?

cause IF hibs are involved in keep taking or defending, they ARE dominating, thats the cause....u just simple count the raids per day hibs do not so much?

You quoted a statement about population shifting/winningteamjoining and made a suggestion regarding that topic.

There is no populationshift towards hibernia because of the keep boni as far as i know, so why would the first thing to do be a change to the realm that:

a) is not seeing people joining it because how succesful it takes keeps

b) is the realm where a population shift would have the least negative impact on the server (because it is the most underpopulated one, and when shifts happen action can be taken to stop the shift)

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:28 PM by waffel

Tool73 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:00 AM
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Apr 2019 4:08 PM
"We do not want the success of one realm to snowball which would lead to a population shift (some may call it winning team joining) because of how they do in the keep warfare"

my first suggestion for this: maybe u should revamp shrooms unable to cast trough doors and walls or be set into courtyard/Keeptowers without any LOS.....

because hib is getting overpopulated and is dominating the Keep-taking-scene? Oo

Could you please explain how you think that your suggestion is linked with the quoted from the announcement?

cause IF hibs are involved in keep taking or defending, they ARE dominating, thats the cause....u just simple count the raids per day hibs do not so much?

You do know that only 1 animist can defend a keep or wall at a time, right? You can have 50 animists (which is hibs most played class day in and day out) ‘defending’ a keep and only 1 is able to make any shrooms. You do know that, right? You do know if 1 animist is casting shrooms in an area, NO OTHER animist can cast any shrooms in a 1600 radius, right?

And these shrooms have 1000 range. And require LoS to begin their cast. And the shrooms pick their targets randomly every cast.

If the 1 animist defending a keep is wrecking you then you’re flat terrible.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 4:28 PM by Menfany

waffel wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:28 PM
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 6:00 AM
because hib is getting overpopulated and is dominating the Keep-taking-scene? Oo

Could you please explain how you think that your suggestion is linked with the quoted from the announcement?

cause IF hibs are involved in keep taking or defending, they ARE dominating, thats the cause....u just simple count the raids per day hibs do not so much?

You do know that only 1 animist can defend a keep or wall at a time, right? You can have 50 animists (which is hibs most played class day in and day out) ‘defending’ a keep and only 1 is able to make any shrooms. You do know that, right? You do know if 1 animist is casting shrooms in an area, NO OTHER animist can cast any shrooms in a 1600 radius, right?

And these shrooms have 1000 range. And require LoS to begin their cast. And the shrooms pick their targets randomly every cast.

If the 1 animist defending a keep is wrecking you then you’re flat terrible.

Wrong.
We had several keep fights this week..
Shrooms dont need LoS to cast on you inside..
Shrooms can be placed on places the animist dont have LoS to..
Shrooms cast all on one target if its the only target.. which happens alot
Shrooms cast on even you are left their LoS
Shrooms can be placed in stacks and cant be erased all together at once
Shrooms have a 1000 range.. and several animists can cast them every 1600 units... guess what.. you cant avoid to get into their castrange..
Shrooms need multiple casts from pure dmg classes to get killed.. means if you are in castrange of them you cant erase them
Shrooms cast on while animist already dead
Shrooms stay longer then any other non-permanent pet
Shrooms tangler root holds you longer in place then the resistance to get rerootet lasts

Sun 14 Apr 2019 5:14 PM by Menfany

The latest change..

- the keep rp bonus is only given if a realm owns all of their own keeps

this is nearly impossible to handle.
Because its WAY easier for enemy realms to get to beno, DC or Bleed... then the "home realm".
and its impossible to motivate the whole bg.. to run through their entire home fz.. just to reraid 1 keep..
and if you are gone.. its lost within an hour again.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 10:09 PM by bamf

It was said earlier, I am just wanting to reiterate it: Add postern doors to the keeps! Maybe then people can actually attempt to go defend a keep. As it stands now, if one realm is not already camping in a keep when the attacker arrives, there will be no defense. Fighting over the postern access was always an awesome part of NF because it adds levels of complexity to the siege. Its easy to add and will make for a much more interesting siege dynamic. If it has unforeseen consequences, just take them back out.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:08 AM by Boltman

The amount of coding\artwork that would go into putting a postern into OF keeps would be huge, but they could add a "Postern Porter" NPC that works kind of like a hastener fairly easily.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 2:30 AM by bamf

Boltman wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:08 AM
The amount of coding\artwork that would go into putting a postern into OF keeps would be huge, but they could add a "Postern Porter" NPC that works kind of like a hastener fairly easily.

Nah, thats why i suggested just putting a portal like the one in the relic keeps just on the outside of wall that when you run into it, teles you to other side. Problem with clickable npc is that big ass trolls will just stand on them to keep you from being able to click to get back in.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:28 AM by Lillebror

I remember back on live i ran with a macro with enter/exit

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:08 PM by mattymc

Stop giving RP for PvE'ing keeps and PvE in general; THEN work on balancing.... too many free rps for basically doing nothing -- it's silly.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 8:45 AM by k3mra

What do you think about a buff that is bound to a keep.
Every time a keep is defended the keep gets a buff that gives every player in the keep region and for 5 Minutes (chasing down a zerg) after a sucsessfull defence 5% more rp for players killed.
That buff can stack so after 1 defence you have 5% after 5 defence you have 25% and so on...

For relics i would say make the Bonus gained by relics not fall of after a relic is picked up. But instead after it is placed in a new keep.
Maybe the you can also add that the relics give a buff to keeps. Keep get a additional level for every level the relic is: 1% relic Bonus +1 level 10% relic bonus= 10level.
Or maybe add eilte guards that can spawn when a relic is placed in the keep.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 1:36 AM by relvinian

You get multiplier for successive fights in keeps.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:35 PM by kratoxin

Menfany wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 4:28 PM
waffel wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:28 PM
Tool73 wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
cause IF hibs are involved in keep taking or defending, they ARE dominating, thats the cause....u just simple count the raids per day hibs do not so much?

You do know that only 1 animist can defend a keep or wall at a time, right? You can have 50 animists (which is hibs most played class day in and day out) ‘defending’ a keep and only 1 is able to make any shrooms. You do know that, right? You do know if 1 animist is casting shrooms in an area, NO OTHER animist can cast any shrooms in a 1600 radius, right?

And these shrooms have 1000 range. And require LoS to begin their cast. And the shrooms pick their targets randomly every cast.

If the 1 animist defending a keep is wrecking you then you’re flat terrible.
Wrong.
We had several keep fights this week..
Shrooms dont need LoS to cast on you inside..
Shrooms can be placed on places the animist dont have LoS to..
Shrooms cast all on one target if its the only target.. which happens alot
Shrooms cast on even you are left their LoS
Shrooms can be placed in stacks and cant be erased all together at once
Shrooms have a 1000 range.. and several animists can cast them every 1600 units... guess what.. you cant avoid to get into their castrange..
Shrooms need multiple casts from pure dmg classes to get killed.. means if you are in castrange of them you cant erase them
Shrooms cast on while animist already dead
Shrooms stay longer then any other non-permanent pet
Shrooms tangler root holds you longer in place then the resistance to get rerootet lasts

wow guess what that sounds like live servers atm, gl on that. only way to fix animist is just reduce pet limit other than that you can't fix any of this.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 9:47 PM by Vkejai

increase power costs