GTAoE Changes in Keep Fights - Phoenix Freeshard

At some point in the next two weeks these changes will go live:

1) /groundassist will be removed
2) when close to a full tank (armsman, warrior, hero) in your group (close will most likely be something around 350 locs) you will not be interrupted by gtae casts while in a keep or tower area

It's possible that groundassist will make a comeback while extending the gtae rupt immunity to other classes (paladin, thane, champion), feedback will determine the setting in the end.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:24 PM by ColdHands

/groundassist has many uses beyond getting a target inside of a keep. removing it completely is short sighted

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:28 PM by Astaa

A very welcome change. Thanks.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

ColdHands wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:24 PM
/groundassist has many uses beyond getting a target inside of a keep. removing it completely is short sighted

It would be nice to list the many uses, the only other that comes to mind is that this change makes it more difficult for stealther groups to coordinate which is not necessarily an unintended side effect.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:31 PM by Seelixh

/groundassist is an essential command for keep fights because of that only the ram leader can zoom out his camera to unveil catapult positions inside a keep for the raid.
How can people now handle that after the patch? Will it be just about guessing where enemy is, aim and shoot? Or whats the reason for this?

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:42 PM by Lokkjim

Would there be a way to just limit groundassist to your group? That way climbers might actually get picked more for groups.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:43 PM by Ruggz

@gruenesschaf

nice change, loving it. finally the abuse can be stopped.

Just gotta fix pets chasing you down inside keeps, and the keep lord spergs out. add bows back?. give them like 350 range? or less. atleast those bows did dmg. the dmg keep lords do to pets is pathetic, and especially hibs/albs with their huge amounts of pets just assist train and send pet on ya

Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:45 PM by brewtus23

Seelixh wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:31 PM
/groundassist is an essential command for keep fights because of that only the ram leader can zoom out his camera to unveil catapult positions inside a keep for the raid.
How can people now handle that after the patch? Will it be just about guessing where enemy is, aim and shoot? Or whats the reason for this?

Seriously you shouldn't be able to zoom out and look into the keep to begin with. That is kinda the whole entire reason behind having walls on a keep so the enemy can't just see straight into it and locate your defense positions. If you want to target those positions you have to try to find them, makes total sense.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:01 PM by Strikejk

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:30 PM
ColdHands wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:24 PM
/groundassist has many uses beyond getting a target inside of a keep. removing it completely is short sighted

It would be nice to list the many uses, the only other that comes to mind is that this change makes it more difficult for stealther groups to coordinate which is not necessarily an unintended side effect.

Nerfing Necro's even further, good job.
1. Groundassist for volley coordination
2. Groundassist for Cata assist
3. Groundassist for GTAOE assist
4. Groundassist for TWF (often via 2nd groupmember, see necro nerf)
5. Groundassist for Maelstrom (often via 2nd groupmember, see necro nerf)
6. Groundassist for Trap-stacking
7. Groundassist to get Treb/Cata shots to a position that is not visible to the Treb/Cata user due to being far behind in a keep.
8. Devaluing Necro's in particular and all stealth and climbers
9. Devaluing Teamplay
10. Editing more if I can think of them in the middle of RvR and just wrote this in 10seconds

And what is the upside to remove it? Seriously. You demand us to list the downsides, I wonder what the upsides are, I really do. And before you answer: Can this upside be achieved by just making /groundassist group only like for maelstrom/twf? If so, why not do that instead.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:03 PM by Astaa

Stop whining, it's overpowered.

Now it's getting fixed, deal with it.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:09 PM by Strikejk

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:03 PM
Stop whining, it's overpowered.

Now it's getting fixed, deal with it.

I dont like the gtaoe spam intowers as everyone else, but flailing around with a nerf-shotgun and a blindfold randomly removing important parts of the game is not the solution, there are better solutions.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:18 PM by exveer

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:09 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:03 PM
Stop whining, it's overpowered.

Now it's getting fixed, deal with it.
I dont like the gtaoe spam intowers as everyone else, but flailing around with a nerf-shotgun and a blindfold randomly removing important parts of the game is not the solution, there are better solutions.

When was the last time you /groundassisted when you weren't casting a GTAOE or Catapult?

It's a niche command that does little beyond make it so you can dogpile on specific areas with too much precision. This makes it so if you control a catapult you actually have to know what youre doing (maybe thats not a good thing? idk), rather than just follow the /groundassist train blindly.

You can still tell people 'catapult focus on door' and people can try to follow instruction. it's just harder now. as it should be, frankly. its kinda silly that you can have a series of catapults mug individuals on command through coordinated assisting and firing.

I agree with the sentiment of 'dont remove complete concepts from the game' but given the very narrow use of /groundassist, I think this is a good change.

Good job, Phoenix Dev team. Glad to see you're still chipping away at making the server a better place.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:20 PM by Strikejk

exveer wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:18 PM
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:09 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:03 PM
Stop whining, it's overpowered.

Now it's getting fixed, deal with it.
I dont like the gtaoe spam intowers as everyone else, but flailing around with a nerf-shotgun and a blindfold randomly removing important parts of the game is not the solution, there are better solutions.

When was the last time you /groundassisted when you weren't casting a GTAOE or Catapult?

It's a niche command that does little beyond make it so you can dogpile on specific areas with too much precision. This makes it so if you control a catapult you actually have to know what youre doing (maybe thats not a good thing? idk), rather than just follow the /groundassist train blindly.

You can still tell people 'catapult focus on door' and people can try to follow instruction. it's just harder now. as it should be, frankly. its kinda silly that you can have a series of catapults mug individuals on command through coordinated assisting and firing.

I agree with the sentiment of 'dont remove complete concepts from the game' but given the very narrow use of /groundassist, I think this is a good change.

Good job, Phoenix Dev team. Glad to see you're still chipping away at making the server a better place.

Almost every day for my TWF. Also what is the problem with Catapults & Trebs assisting groundtargets? Thats how its supposed to be. Catapult and Treb users NEED the groundassist feature to be able to target stuff. You are making a non-issue an issue to push your anti-gtaoe agenda. I repeat groundassisting catapults is FINE. Furthermore what niche tactics? Are other tactics not valid because you personally dont use them? Thats hypocrisy at its best.

To sum this up, you are dooming all other tactics just to push your anti-GTAOE agenda which is utter garbage because you don't have to, its just the lazy way. The GTAOE problem can be fixed WITHOUT dooming all other tactics. In other words you push this because you are too lazy to properly fix gtaoe assist in towers.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:45 PM by Bradekes

This is a great change +1.

Necro abuse in keep/tower fights was ruining the game. I appreciate this. You could also put a timer on gtassist if you return it. No one should need gtassist more than once a minute. Also make it so necro ground target disappear when placed without pet in view if you return the command.

Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:54 PM by Tulpa

Thank you so much for listening, however this is again not what we were asking for. Siege and all other ground assist was fine we were complaining about broken necro mechanics.

I hope you return it and find another way to stop the necro abuse of this.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:09 AM by Sagz

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:20 PM
exveer wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:18 PM
Strikejk wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:09 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 11:03 PM
Stop whining, it's overpowered.

Now it's getting fixed, deal with it.
I dont like the gtaoe spam intowers as everyone else, but flailing around with a nerf-shotgun and a blindfold randomly removing important parts of the game is not the solution, there are better solutions.

When was the last time you /groundassisted when you weren't casting a GTAOE or Catapult?

It's a niche command that does little beyond make it so you can dogpile on specific areas with too much precision. This makes it so if you control a catapult you actually have to know what youre doing (maybe thats not a good thing? idk), rather than just follow the /groundassist train blindly.

You can still tell people 'catapult focus on door' and people can try to follow instruction. it's just harder now. as it should be, frankly. its kinda silly that you can have a series of catapults mug individuals on command through coordinated assisting and firing.

I agree with the sentiment of 'dont remove complete concepts from the game' but given the very narrow use of /groundassist, I think this is a good change.

Good job, Phoenix Dev team. Glad to see you're still chipping away at making the server a better place.

Almost every day for my TWF. Also what is the problem with Catapults & Trebs assisting groundtargets? Thats how its supposed to be. Catapult and Treb users NEED the groundassist feature to be able to target stuff. You are making a non-issue an issue to push your anti-gtaoe agenda. I repeat groundassisting catapults is FINE. Furthermore what niche tactics? Are other tactics not valid because you personally dont use them? Thats hypocrisy at its best.

To sum this up, you are dooming all other tactics just to push your anti-GTAOE agenda which is utter garbage because you don't have to, its just the lazy way. The GTAOE problem can be fixed WITHOUT dooming all other tactics. In other words you push this because you are too lazy to properly fix gtaoe assist in towers.

You know, that is 2 posts now where you said or implied " there are better solutions", yet you have yet to name one. People complain all the time about any change, the only way to validate your dislike is to have a solution. When you blindly say there are better solutions without having one of your own, then your argument becomes invalid.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:13 AM by Strikejk

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:22 PM
At some point in the next two weeks these changes will go live:

1) /groundassist will be removed
2) when close to a full tank (armsman, warrior, hero) in your group (close will most likely be something around 350 locs) you will not be interrupted by gtae casts while in a keep or tower area

It's possible that groundassist will make a comeback while extending the gtae rupt immunity to other classes (paladin, thane, champion), feedback will determine the setting in the end.

Is it possible to have a private talk about balance with you? Because I feel like the majority of interest you get is from main hibernian players.

The reason for this is that alb has no proper method taking and defending towers in comparison to the other realms. Hence why albs fall-back to the only thing they have (which all other realms have too) GTAOE.
If gtaoe was so insanely OP, like you seem to think it is, how come mainly alb use it and not hibs/mids to the same degree?
The reason is rather simple: Its a poor mans choice.
Hibs have insanely more powerful options with their 2 classes having access to static tempest and more classes with bomber spec available to them. They also have access to instant mezzes and shroom stacks. Furthermore every proper caster spec on hibernia includes subspec mana (if it isnt main spec) which means literally every caster has a bomb at their disposal. These options are far superior to gtaoe spam, especially in combination with their static and MoC. Hence why hibs don't use gtaoe spam, they don't have to, they have better alternatives. However does anyone cry about nerfing bombs? No. Let that sink in.

Now lets look at mids, what do they have at their disposal. Again they have access to instant mezzes unlike alb. Furthermore they have AoE Stun and good AoE damage with their thane, on top of the bomb and static like alb does. As you can see, even they have better tools at their disposal, although not as good as hibs.

Nerfing gtaoe which is available to all 3 realms nerfs alb to a higher degree due to it being the only proper option they have. Is Albion winning the majority of tower fights? No.
So what do they get to counterbalance this? Or is it just another case of "sucks to be alb, should have rolled hib" like it was with the archer class for like 2 years?

It doesn't seem like you considered this, same as with many other changes that happened in the past and it shows a lack of neutral or even distribution of opinions. Thats the reason for my humble request at the beginning. I would like to chat with you about balance as I feel I can offer a needed perspective in this and many other upcoming and past changes. And yes I am fully aware I'm just a regular player and have no fancy GM, dev, mod or whatnot title, but I highly doubt that the lack of a title makes me any less experienced or less smart when it comes to balance.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:32 AM by Voso

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:22 PM
At some point in the next two weeks these changes will go live:

1) /groundassist will be removed
2) when close to a full tank (armsman, warrior, hero) in your group (close will most likely be something around 350 locs) you will not be interrupted by gtae casts while in a keep or tower area

It's possible that groundassist will make a comeback while extending the gtae rupt immunity to other classes (paladin, thane, champion), feedback will determine the setting in the end.

Interesting idea. I think ground assisting is fine except for necro exploiting. Exending the recast timer on gtaoe would be better and add an immunity to gtaoe interrupt similar to stun,root, and mez. I foresee some long tower fights if these changes were made.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:56 AM by Strikejk

Voso wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:32 AM
Interesting idea. I think ground assisting is fine except for necro exploiting.

Thats like saying Animist exploit by using more than 1 shroom. Its literally part of the class identity of the necro not to be attached to its pet, which comes with many, many downsides.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:04 AM by Lokkjim

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:13 AM
Is it possible to have a private talk about balance with you? Because I feel like the majority of interest you get is from main hibernian players.

The reason for this is that alb has no proper method taking and defending towers in comparison to the other realms. Hence why albs fall-back to the only thing they have (which all other realms have too) GTAOE.
If gtaoe was so insanely OP, like you seem to think it is, how come mainly alb use it and not hibs/mids to the same degree?
The reason is rather simple: Its a poor mans choice.
Hibs have insanely more powerful options with their 2 classes having access to static tempest and more classes with bomber spec available to them. They also have access to instant mezzes and shroom stacks. Furthermore every proper caster spec on hibernia includes subspec mana (if it isnt main spec) which means literally every caster has a bomb at their disposal. These options are far superior to gtaoe spam, especially in combination with their static and MoC. Hence why hibs don't use gtaoe spam, they don't have to, they have better alternatives. However does anyone cry about nerfing bombs? No. Let that sink in.

Now lets look at mids, what do they have at their disposal. Again they have access to instant mezzes unlike alb. Furthermore they have AoE Stun and good AoE damage with their thane, on top of the bomb and static like alb does. As you can see, even they have better tools at their disposal, although not as good as hibs.

Nerfing gtaoe which is available to all 3 realms nerfs alb to a higher degree due to it being the only proper option they have. Is Albion winning the majority of tower fights? No.
So what do they get to counterbalance this? Or is it just another case of "sucks to be alb, should have rolled hib" like it was with the archer class for like 2 years?

It doesn't seem like you considered this, same as with many other changes that happened in the past and it shows a lack of neutral or even distribution of opinions. Thats the reason for my humble request at the beginning. I would like to chat with you about balance as I feel I can offer a needed perspective in this and many other upcoming and past changes. And yes I am fully aware I'm just a regular player and have no fancy GM, dev, mod or whatnot title, but I highly doubt that the lack of a title makes me any less experienced or less smart when it comes to balance.

This sounds a lot like when Hib was complaining about the volley nerf, just gonna throw that out there.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:08 AM by Strikejk

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:04 AM
This sounds a lot like when Hib was complaining about the volley nerf, just gonna throw that out there.

Don't throw me in the same bucket with other peoples "interesting" opinions.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:20 AM by Sagz

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:13 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:22 PM
At some point in the next two weeks these changes will go live:

1) /groundassist will be removed
2) when close to a full tank (armsman, warrior, hero) in your group (close will most likely be something around 350 locs) you will not be interrupted by gtae casts while in a keep or tower area

It's possible that groundassist will make a comeback while extending the gtae rupt immunity to other classes (paladin, thane, champion), feedback will determine the setting in the end.

Is it possible to have a private talk about balance with you? Because I feel like the majority of interest you get is from main hibernian players.

The reason for this is that alb has no proper method taking and defending towers in comparison to the other realms. Hence why albs fall-back to the only thing they have (which all other realms have too) GTAOE.
If gtaoe was so insanely OP, like you seem to think it is, how come mainly alb use it and not hibs/mids to the same degree?
The reason is rather simple: Its a poor mans choice.
Hibs have insanely more powerful options with their 2 classes having access to static tempest and more classes with bomber spec available to them. They also have access to instant mezzes and shroom stacks. Furthermore every proper caster spec on hibernia includes subspec mana (if it isnt main spec) which means literally every caster has a bomb at their disposal. These options are far superior to gtaoe spam, especially in combination with their static and MoC. Hence why hibs don't use gtaoe spam, they don't have to, they have better alternatives. However does anyone cry about nerfing bombs? No. Let that sink in.

Now lets look at mids, what do they have at their disposal. Again they have access to instant mezzes unlike alb. Furthermore they have AoE Stun and good AoE damage with their thane, on top of the bomb and static like alb does. As you can see, even they have better tools at their disposal, although not as good as hibs.

Nerfing gtaoe which is available to all 3 realms nerfs alb to a higher degree due to it being the only proper option they have. Is Albion winning the majority of tower fights? No.
So what do they get to counterbalance this? Or is it just another case of "sucks to be alb, should have rolled hib" like it was with the archer class for like 2 years?

It doesn't seem like you considered this, same as with many other changes that happened in the past and it shows a lack of neutral or even distribution of opinions. Thats the reason for my humble request at the beginning. I would like to chat with you about balance as I feel I can offer a needed perspective in this and many other upcoming and past changes. And yes I am fully aware I'm just a regular player and have no fancy GM, dev, mod or whatnot title, but I highly doubt that the lack of a title makes me any less experienced or less smart when it comes to balance.

Ok Ok , 2 points that nullify everything you said.

1. Good aoe damage in a thane
2. Shroom stacks are OP. you know they have a cap right? so having more animists is a hindrance

And you do know Alb has static tempest too right?

I think you play a necro, and the only thing you know how to do it set ground targets.

And again, you still have not even hinted at a solution of your own, just bashing someone elses

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:35 AM by Delegator

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:30 PM
It would be nice to list the many uses, the only other that comes to mind is that this change makes it more difficult for stealther groups to coordinate which is not necessarily an unintended side effect.

1. Setting target for treb without losing possession of the trebuchet is a big one.
2. Aiming catapults from outside a keep with the help of stealthers, which was SUPPOSED to be a big reason for climbing in the first place.

Don't break siege because of the perceived overuse of GTAE.

<Edit> You could make the same argument that eliminating /assist completely would also make it more difficult for stealther groups to coordinate, or that it makes it too easy for stun assist trains. After all, what other use is there?</edit>

Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:13 AM by easytoremember

I use groundassist to setup for encounters showing people where to stand with the groundtarget. You can't exactly run into aggro to personally position them

Setting an internal RUT on making groundtargets is also no good- anyone with a qbar dedicated to /groundset macros can explain this for you

Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:32 AM by Forlornhope

Maybe time to consider easing the volley nerf a bit by lowering the cool down since you can no longer gt assist?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:35 AM by Agent7

I think there ARE negatives to the change, but the positives outweigh them.
I find it strange that people use gtassist for their TWF. I've used TWF hundreds of times, never used gtassist.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:41 AM by Anaethema

Removing a mechanic that has been in the game for 20 years is a REALLY stupid idea. How about just remove /groundassist for Necros and let the rest of us continue to play the game we have loved for 20 years?

Who am I kidding? The devs here never listen.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:42 AM by gotwqqd

I think instead of 100% non interrupt it should be 95% and diminish as the tank is further out....say 650 units is 0%

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:52 AM by Expfighter

Anaethema wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:41 AM
Removing a mechanic that has been in the game for 20 years is a REALLY stupid idea. How about just remove /groundassist for Necros and let the rest of us continue to play the game we have loved for 20 years?

Who am I kidding? The devs here never listen.

for the 1st time in 18 years i actually agree with Anaethema!

REMOVE the groundtarget for the necro, and also remove siege controlling for necros too! i have seen so many necros abusing the siege by using it on towers and keeps with the pet safely inside out of harms way!

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:58 AM by Hedien

I think that daoc has too many active /xxx commands.
To remove them from active gameplay is positive.

The problem is the clunkiness of groundtarget. I find myself often struggling with my camera and forward/backward key to bring my target to the right spot.
To remove groundtarget assist is good, but if there is any better tool to position your own gt target conveniently, it would be good.

This was one major improvement with wow, the click to place gtargeting.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:08 AM by Tyrlaan

I think removing /groundassist or limiting it (like can only groundassist climbers and have to be in group to groundassist) will go a long way to fixing the necro exploits (like necros running after people setting GTs for Wizards to GTAE them). That was why we had Wizard GTAEs all over the place.

I´m not sure making a group´s healers and PBAEers immune to GTAE (interrupt only or damage) is a good thing. That full tank will stand close to them anyway to slam anybody trying to push and use some kind of AE rupt. It will make towers very tough if not impossible to take without being able to rupt their healers. Without /groundassist, if I manage to set that GT right into them, it should work IMO. They have it much easier to move out than me with the interface to set a new GT.

It will also remove the incentive to subspec for GTAE (which is a thing in Hib and Mid) to exactly do that: rupt. It was only (multi-assisted) Earth Wizard GTAEs right on top of people (due to necros) which could actually make whole towers unsafe.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:34 AM by Nando

Seems, as the way as the Zergs play now, another huge Alb Nerf.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:15 AM by Ceseuron

If part of the goal of this is to nerf the Necro and the ability for the shade to set ground targets with impunity because the pet has been left out of range on "Stay" somewhere, then it would make more sense (as well as solving a number of other balance issues with the necro) to shorten the distance that the shade can be from the pet. Right now, the necro can go way too far away from the pet and still stay in shade form.

But I suppose taking a chainsaw to the game also makes sense. It worked for Live, right?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:42 AM by Shadowkill

Seelixh wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:31 PM
/groundassist is an essential command for keep fights because of that only the ram leader can zoom out his camera to unveil catapult positions inside a keep for the raid.
How can people now handle that after the patch? Will it be just about guessing where enemy is, aim and shoot? Or whats the reason for this?

they will use... stealter ??? idk

Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM by Astaa

People (Albs) complaining about not being able to take a tower without having the entire thing covered in GTOAEs, via GTs laid out by someone damage immune.

A few of things...

How do you think everyone else manages? You already have the best siege set up on any realm, 2 nearsights, 3 wall climbers, 1 of whom has CC, a huge utility GTAOE class and a class that can safely move around inside an enemy tower laying GTs, GTs that can be changed instantly. The reason you don't see many void elds (GTAOE spec) is because the utility is bad, if you spec for GTAOE then you lose all sorts of toys that come as standard on the wizard. You get GTAOE, a free enemy demez in the form of an AOE DD and a useless bolt from void, that's pretty much it (yes there is a little more but in the context of siege) I actually saw a GM suggest everyone should abuse an unfixable, unintended bug to set up a GT via a ram.

You can still use GTAOE, you just need to *ahem* get good and set your own GT, instead of mashing an assist button. Ask a Necro, apparently they do it the same way as other realms and setting one via shade is very rare! (lol)

Adapt, use more tanks, this change may indeed help increase the number of tanks being played, if there is an inherent advantage of having a tank in group then people will bring them, as it is, tanks are pretty much useless in sieges except for sitting on rams (I would still like to see some sort of climb wall ability for heavies though) Personally I think this sort of thing should be explored more, a nice variety of classes is better than an abundance of the same classes.

Edit.

Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf, Albion brought the far superior numbers and superior ability spread, we brought a counter to that. The devs worked towards taking that counter away and broke the delicate dynamic.

Frankly, it's time to reap those rewards. It's all largely predictable.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:01 AM by Noleran

Finally - its very needed to remove that /groundassist. Its a big improvement of quality for the RvR. As a custom shard its always very welcome to take a look for ways to create better gameplay.
Sometimes for the first view it looks a little questionable. But after a while we will have a way better time in RvR.
Thanks for that open eyes (and ears) and the courage to go that way!

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:06 AM by stonesouldier

if GTAE in keep fights is such a problem, just remove the spell and give those classes something else in that line.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:14 AM by johneyde

Nice change my +1

Mon 23 Nov 2020 9:40 AM by gotwqqd

Trial and error are more than adequate for gtaoe.
Simulates rl to an extent.
Being able to instantly coordinate attacks at the drop of a hate is a bit much

Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:53 AM by Sepplord

Strikejk wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:13 AM
Is it possible to have a private talk about balance with you?

possibly, sure why no...

Because I feel like the majority of interest you get is from main hibernian players.

...ww that you mention it my cats on fire. i got to go...

Seriously though, you expect anyone from staff wanting to talk to you in a 1on1 setting after the first thing you mention is realmbias

Following up that with claims about Bombing mentalists and how midgard has access to huge AOE dmg with the thane really is just the icing on the cake

Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:29 AM by Freudinio

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
People (Albs) complaining about not being able to take a tower without having the entire thing covered in GTOAEs, via GTs laid out by someone damage immune.

A few of things...

How do you think everyone else manages? You already have the best siege set up on any realm, 2 nearsights, 3 wall climbers, 1 of whom has CC, a huge utility GTAOE class and a class that can safely move around inside an enemy tower laying GTs, GTs that can be changed instantly. The reason you don't see many void elds (GTAOE spec) is because the utility is bad, if you spec for GTAOE then you lose all sorts of toys that come as standard on the wizard. You get GTAOE, a free enemy demez in the form of an AOE DD and a useless bolt from void, that's pretty much it (yes there is a little more but in the context of siege) I actually saw a GM suggest everyone should abuse an unfixable, unintended bug to set up a GT via a ram.

You can still use GTAOE, you just need to *ahem* get good and set your own GT, instead of mashing an assist button. Ask a Necro, apparently they do it the same way as other realms and setting one via shade is very rare! (lol)

Adapt, use more tanks, this change may indeed help increase the number of tanks being played, if there is an inherent advantage of having a tank in group then people will bring them, as it is, tanks are pretty much useless in sieges except for sitting on rams (I would still like to see some sort of climb wall ability for heavies though) Personally I think this sort of thing should be explored more, a nice variety of classes is better than an abundance of the same classes.

Edit.

Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf, Albion brought the far superior numbers and superior ability spread, we brought a counter to that. The devs worked towards taking that counter away and broke the delicate dynamic.

Frankly, it's time to reap those rewards. It's all largely predictable.

Hopefully you understand that this will lead to further archery nerfs. One such could be that archery classes can no longer assist, so that they have to *ahem* get good and pick their own targets.

This change, to me, further proves that the "dev" team have lost their vision for this server and now francticly respond to loudmouth whiners such as yourself. I will from here on out bang my drum loudly to get rangers specifically nerfed into the ground. Because, apparently, that's the game we're playing.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:42 AM by Sepplord

Every single time something gets changed there are people claiming doom and gloom and how THIS CHANGE specifically proves that the devs only listen to the loud consistent whiners, yet there are some topics being whined about for weeks, some for months and some just for days before something gets changed.
Oh, and i almost forgot, when they change something noone whined about they are "clearly not listening" which is also bad

i have my own share of changes i believe are bad and only done because of an incorrect playerperception, so i am not claiming to stand above such psychological errors...but it is something to keep in mind

Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM by Freudinio

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:42 AM
Every single time something gets changed there are people claiming doom and gloom and how THIS CHANGE specifically proves that the devs only listen to the loud consistent whiners, yet there are some topics being whined about for weeks, some for months and some just for days before something gets changed.
Oh, and i almost forgot, when they change something noone whined about they are "clearly not listening" which is also bad

i have my own share of changes i believe are bad and only done because of an incorrect playerperception, so i am not claiming to stand above such psychological errors...but it is something to keep in mind

You say that, but I can track every. single. nerf. that goes for alb, with what is whined about in albion chat channels nightly. Personally I don't have an opinion on /gt assist since it is of little consequence to me.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:08 PM by Astaa

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:29 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
People (Albs) complaining about not being able to take a tower without having the entire thing covered in GTOAEs, via GTs laid out by someone damage immune.

A few of things...

How do you think everyone else manages? You already have the best siege set up on any realm, 2 nearsights, 3 wall climbers, 1 of whom has CC, a huge utility GTAOE class and a class that can safely move around inside an enemy tower laying GTs, GTs that can be changed instantly. The reason you don't see many void elds (GTAOE spec) is because the utility is bad, if you spec for GTAOE then you lose all sorts of toys that come as standard on the wizard. You get GTAOE, a free enemy demez in the form of an AOE DD and a useless bolt from void, that's pretty much it (yes there is a little more but in the context of siege) I actually saw a GM suggest everyone should abuse an unfixable, unintended bug to set up a GT via a ram.

You can still use GTAOE, you just need to *ahem* get good and set your own GT, instead of mashing an assist button. Ask a Necro, apparently they do it the same way as other realms and setting one via shade is very rare! (lol)

Adapt, use more tanks, this change may indeed help increase the number of tanks being played, if there is an inherent advantage of having a tank in group then people will bring them, as it is, tanks are pretty much useless in sieges except for sitting on rams (I would still like to see some sort of climb wall ability for heavies though) Personally I think this sort of thing should be explored more, a nice variety of classes is better than an abundance of the same classes.

Edit.

Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf, Albion brought the far superior numbers and superior ability spread, we brought a counter to that. The devs worked towards taking that counter away and broke the delicate dynamic.

Frankly, it's time to reap those rewards. It's all largely predictable.

Hopefully you understand that this will lead to further archery nerfs. One such could be that archery classes can no longer assist, so that they have to *ahem* get good and pick their own targets.

This change, to me, further proves that the "dev" team have lost their vision for this server and now francticly respond to loudmouth whiners such as yourself. I will from here on out bang my drum loudly to get rangers specifically nerfed into the ground. Because, apparently, that's the game we're playing.

I play my ranger solo within the zerg, I don't assist, I set my own ground targets and I keep myself alive. The only thing I use a ground target for now on my ranger is to lay a distance flag down to help select targets.

I have been on my void for the last week and again, I set my own ground targets, it's not hard and you should have a rough idea of range by now.

If you play a class that needs a ground target then you ought to learn how to use them, like any class must learn to use the environment around them and their abilities.

Edit, this needed fixing, it has now been fixed. Move on.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:20 PM by Freudinio

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:08 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:29 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
People (Albs) complaining about not being able to take a tower without having the entire thing covered in GTOAEs, via GTs laid out by someone damage immune.

A few of things...

How do you think everyone else manages? You already have the best siege set up on any realm, 2 nearsights, 3 wall climbers, 1 of whom has CC, a huge utility GTAOE class and a class that can safely move around inside an enemy tower laying GTs, GTs that can be changed instantly. The reason you don't see many void elds (GTAOE spec) is because the utility is bad, if you spec for GTAOE then you lose all sorts of toys that come as standard on the wizard. You get GTAOE, a free enemy demez in the form of an AOE DD and a useless bolt from void, that's pretty much it (yes there is a little more but in the context of siege) I actually saw a GM suggest everyone should abuse an unfixable, unintended bug to set up a GT via a ram.

You can still use GTAOE, you just need to *ahem* get good and set your own GT, instead of mashing an assist button. Ask a Necro, apparently they do it the same way as other realms and setting one via shade is very rare! (lol)

Adapt, use more tanks, this change may indeed help increase the number of tanks being played, if there is an inherent advantage of having a tank in group then people will bring them, as it is, tanks are pretty much useless in sieges except for sitting on rams (I would still like to see some sort of climb wall ability for heavies though) Personally I think this sort of thing should be explored more, a nice variety of classes is better than an abundance of the same classes.

Edit.

Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf, Albion brought the far superior numbers and superior ability spread, we brought a counter to that. The devs worked towards taking that counter away and broke the delicate dynamic.

Frankly, it's time to reap those rewards. It's all largely predictable.

Hopefully you understand that this will lead to further archery nerfs. One such could be that archery classes can no longer assist, so that they have to *ahem* get good and pick their own targets.

This change, to me, further proves that the "dev" team have lost their vision for this server and now francticly respond to loudmouth whiners such as yourself. I will from here on out bang my drum loudly to get rangers specifically nerfed into the ground. Because, apparently, that's the game we're playing.

I play my ranger solo within the zerg, I don't assist, I set my own ground targets and I keep myself alive. The only thing I use a ground target for now on my ranger is to lay a distance flag down to help select targets.

I have been on my void for the last week and again, I set my own ground targets, it's not hard and you should have a rough idea of range by now.

If you play a class that needs a ground target then you ought to learn how to use them, like any class must learn to use the environment around them and their abilities.

Edit, this needed fixing, it has now been fixed. Move on.

Why do you assume that people that use /gt assist don't know how to use their own respective ground targets?

I find it ironic that you ask people to move on because you like this change, but after the archery nerf you were up in arms for several weeks after. But it speaks volumes of the type of person you are.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:31 PM by boridi

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf

By bringing even more archers?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:43 PM by Valaraukar

boridi wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:31 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf

By bringing even more archers?

I was wondering the same

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:44 PM by Astaa

boridi wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:31 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:24 AM
Hibernia has just faced and adapted to a massive nerf to the battlefield dynamic in the archer nerf

By bringing even more archers?

Don't know about that but a quick /serverinfo shows there are more scouts (21) on than hunters (19) and rangers (16).

Also, that there are 40 mincers on.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:46 PM by Runental

Yep, good time for /serverinfo.. Very meaningful 🤣

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:56 PM by Astaa

Do it at prime time and the numbers are much of a muchness.

If anything, doing it off peak gives an insight into classes being levelled and thus an idea of what will be out in RvR in a week.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:58 PM by Sepplord

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
You say that, but I can track every. single. nerf. that goes for alb, with what is whined about in albion chat channels nightly. Personally I don't have an opinion on /gt assist since it is of little consequence to me.

Not sure if being sarcastic, or actually having a point. You can track every alb nerf to stuff that albs whined about in discord? Huh?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:17 PM by Freudinio

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:58 PM
Freudinio wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:51 AM
You say that, but I can track every. single. nerf. that goes for alb, with what is whined about in albion chat channels nightly. Personally I don't have an opinion on /gt assist since it is of little consequence to me.

Not sure if being sarcastic, or actually having a point. You can track every alb nerf to stuff that albs whined about in discord? Huh?

For Albion, not against. In the game, not on discord. I might be random, but the correlation is definitely there.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:27 PM by easytoremember

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:20 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:08 PM
I play my ranger solo within the zerg, I don't assist, I set my own ground targets and I keep myself alive. The only thing I use a ground target for now on my ranger is to lay a distance flag down to help select targets.

I have been on my void for the last week and again, I set my own ground targets, it's not hard and you should have a rough idea of range by now.

If you play a class that needs a ground target then you ought to learn how to use them, like any class must learn to use the environment around them and their abilities.

Edit, this needed fixing, it has now been fixed. Move on.
I find it ironic that you ask people to move on because you like this change, but after the archery nerf you were up in arms for several weeks after. But it speaks volumes of the type of person you are.

Making you play by your own rules how horrible

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:42 AM
Every single time something gets changed there are people claiming doom and gloom and how THIS CHANGE specifically proves that the devs only listen to the loud consistent whiners, yet there are some topics being whined about for weeks, some for months and some just for days before something gets changed.

'Every single time something gets changed there are people claiming doom and gloom and how THIS CHANGE specifically further proves that the devs only listen to the loud consistent whiners'

They do, because when enough people whine you get an impression of consensus whether it really is or not. You can have 100% of posters here agreeing something has to go, yet ingame it be the total opposite 95:5 split. There is plenty of overlap between 'reasonable idea' and 'bad for the server'
(and to note I'm not blaming them for it. The most inane bs gets people here speaking in reddit's signature hyperbole. Nobody would throw their money at CTR if consensus cracking wasn't effective)

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:42 AM
Oh, and i almost forgot, when they change something noone whined about they are "clearly not listening" which is also bad

Those are both the same group; the whining, the moaning about not picking up the suggestion they've spent a week propping up. You can see them (you) oppose each other over this change or that change, both are doing the same thing every other month

Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM by Bry

Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:00 PM by Valaraukar

I think that is quite assured that here Devs prefer to cure the symptom rather than the cause. Rangers volley was an issue? Nerf volley for everyone. Albs Gtaoe is an issue? Nerf Gtaoe for everyone.

Mind it, gtaoe is a huge issue in keeps/towers. Totally annoying, especially when you are trying to heal and get interrupted everywhere inside the keep. But if the issue is with Alb Gtaoe (broken classes as always, god mode on to put gt, use oil, kill doors and guards), and with catas Gtaoe the solutions are simple: nerf Alb gtaoe class, nerf necro immortality, and increase the distance between catas to at least 1k or 1.5k between each other, so you cannot do gt assist using catas and the sieges / relic fights will not become that ridicolous field of catas with ppl firing them afk with autoclick.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:57 PM by gydeonphoenix

Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM
Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

This. 100%.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:33 PM by Nando

gydeonphoenix wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:57 PM
Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM
Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

This. 100%.

Albs Playstyle getting nerfed, and the Hibs are still whining like hell. What a Realm. Gosh.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:48 PM by Kwall0311

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 22 Nov 2020 10:22 PM
2) when close to a full tank (armsman, warrior, hero) in your group (close will most likely be something around 350 locs) you will not be interrupted by gtae casts while in a keep or tower area

@gruenesschaf I would hope you guys are watching this closely. As it stands right now , GTAOE is one of the ONLY ways to combat these archery assist trains safely. Having required LOS (aoe dot/mez/etc) from other interrupt spells puts the caster at a massive risk, especially while HEAVILY outranged. All they have to do is put a tank in their stack and they are now invulnerable? This will not end well

Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:10 PM by Stoertebecker

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:00 PM
I think that is quite assured that here Devs prefer to cure the symptom rather than the cause. Rangers volley was an issue? Nerf volley for everyone. Albs Gtaoe is an issue? Nerf Gtaoe for everyone.

Volley nerf was a nerf for all 3 archers, not just Rangers. Was before Scouts got their root style, so Scouts and Hunters were not so many around. So a fair nerf, same thing for gtaoe. There`s something wrong if you can place a gtaoe on each possible place on a keep roof, makes a defense impossible, and on top via /groundassist.

Do you want a halfway fair fight or easy mode with no defense in keepfights?

Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:13 PM by Nephamael

It would be nice to list the many uses, the only other that comes to mind is that this change makes it more difficult for stealther groups to coordinate which is not necessarily an unintended side effect.

i was thinking about animist DS (groundassist for shrooms) ofc that also is true for shrooming in keeps

i guess there will be other ways to coordinate tho, i think it's not the worst change ever

Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:05 PM by Valaraukar

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:10 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:00 PM
I think that is quite assured that here Devs prefer to cure the symptom rather than the cause. Rangers volley was an issue? Nerf volley for everyone. Albs Gtaoe is an issue? Nerf Gtaoe for everyone.

Volley nerf was a nerf for all 3 archers, not just Rangers. Was before Scouts got their root style, so Scouts and Hunters were not so many around. So a fair nerf, same thing for gtaoe. There`s something wrong if you can place a gtaoe on each possible place on a keep roof, makes a defense impossible, and on top via /groundassist.

Do you want a halfway fair fight or easy mode with no defense in keepfights?

No wait... when the volley reuse timer has been nerfed I'm pretty sure that scouts already had that ridicolous no-immunity-kite-ftw stun style. And I agree that the nerf affected all the three realms, but the root cause was the "abuse" of just one realm (in that case Hib with insane ranger DPS). Anyone has ever seen around someone complaining about Hunters volley assist? No.
Now it's the same for GTAOE. The issue is caused by the "abuse" of GTAOE by Albion, and it is nerfed for all the three realms. Anyone has ever seen around someone complaining about Runemasters GTAOE assist? No. But here we go again, plain nerf for everybody, instead of rightful adjustements to the "broken" classes (in this case Alb with Wizard and Necros).

Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:30 PM by Iuppiter

Good change imo. I think #2 makes #1 unnecessary and will give some needed love to heavy tanks in defense situations but I don't see any game-breaking downside to removing groundassist - players can always find workarounds if necessary (ex. for the person that mentioned using ground targets for pve coordination - "stand in my spot and /groundset X" ).

Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:03 PM by Stoertebecker

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:05 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 5:10 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:00 PM
I think that is quite assured that here Devs prefer to cure the symptom rather than the cause. Rangers volley was an issue? Nerf volley for everyone. Albs Gtaoe is an issue? Nerf Gtaoe for everyone.

Volley nerf was a nerf for all 3 archers, not just Rangers. Was before Scouts got their root style, so Scouts and Hunters were not so many around. So a fair nerf, same thing for gtaoe. There`s something wrong if you can place a gtaoe on each possible place on a keep roof, makes a defense impossible, and on top via /groundassist.

Do you want a halfway fair fight or easy mode with no defense in keepfights?

No wait... when the volley reuse timer has been nerfed I'm pretty sure that scouts already had that ridicolous no-immunity-kite-ftw stun style. And I agree that the nerf affected all the three realms, but the root cause was the "abuse" of just one realm (in that case Hib with insane ranger DPS). Anyone has ever seen around someone complaining about Hunters volley assist? No.

Because we had not that many hunters, and we had never a coordinated hunter keepdefense group for several reasons...gtaoe is one of them.
Hard to shoot something if all places on a wall or a keep roof is full with gt`s for katapults and gtaoe.

Have you ever tried to defend Bledmeer? No? Try it before the changes.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 7:31 PM by lolmatron

Loving the thought behind the idea and loving the server.

That beeing said:
Everyone seems to get all thier panties twisted in a bunch buy this..... easy to imagine since alot of people have put ALOT of hours into thier chars and realm(s).
But DO REMEMBER: It's a freeshard, you aren't paying to play (except for the volontary donations). I view Phoenix is a PTR server, and that is how it is. Developers spend countless hours improving stuff they themselves didn't enjoy on live... All for ungreatful whiners that dont want to play on the Live servers because they don't like the rulesets there. Well time to wake up and face it: If you don't like it start and run your own server, see how fun it will be having people bash and complain about ANY and ALL changes you try to implement. All versions of this game has had thier ups and downs! Phoenix is no different, stuff needs to be tested and run thru the paces - and I'd reckon 99% of teh player base wouldn't bother largescale test on a PTR cluster before hand.

To the point: I went thru most of the comments and replies, pretty boilerplate whining with the occasional good one in the mix....
GTAE has been a annoyance for a looooooong time. Especially the interrupt part, whichever realm you play on. Doesn't matter who's looking at who.
Kinda the way it was intended.. but has always been in need of tweaking!

Nerfing it server wide seems like the most viable solution, no one gets left behind.

But.....
The way might not the the best one, there are afew highlights tho: (in some kind of ranking order)
1. Heavy tank "coverage" is an AWESOME idea! Bring more of them into the battlefield, its a casters siege now (frankly), with a couple of tanks.
---- This one would be the optimal solution, a "engage" of sorts for shield specc that covers the interrupt part of spell hits - whilst making the heavy immobile (self grapple)
2. Increased recast timer
---- Doesn't affect a BG with 20+ GTAE casters that much but could do wonders if combined with #7
3. GT assist reuse timer
---- Valid suggestion but will add another myriad of problems for siege equipment.
4. Nerf necro shade
---- This one should be on the #1 spot, for several reasons but I reckon other ways of solving the issues would be better. For one make the pet teleport out of door when shade does, no matter of stay/here/follow/stance/Etc. Or do it like animist, 300range on height and it goes poof.
5. Another look at wizard earth line. Maybe goes hand in hand with a look on Eld/RM speclines where we can find GTAE (void/cold)
---- Some solid things have been said on this point, and Earth is too stacked for rvr as it is. Tone it down with removal of debuffs as a start. OR look at RM/ELD GTAE lines to get them closer to what earth is capable of atm.
6. Group based gt-assist
7. Increase in cast time (ex. Cure Nearsight)
---- Longer cast = high chance of getting counter-GTAE'd or just plain rupted by something. Would work best in combo with #2

Peace out and keep up the good work Dev-team/Staff!

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:21 PM by Solong

i cant say i like this..

why not only remove it from stealther, ram driver and necro instead of making it absolut useless? and i hope the tanks will take the dmg from the caster otherwise its like a free moc in my eyes oO

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:27 PM by Stoertebecker

Solong wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:21 PM
i cant say i like this..

why not only remove it from stealther, ram driver and necro instead of making it absolut useless? and i hope the tanks will take the dmg from the caster otherwise its like a free moc in my eyes oO

You can`t remove it that easily if it`s a global setting, hardcoded stuff etc.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:57 PM by Enyore

What a fine change.

Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:57 PM by Tulpa

Solong wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 8:21 PM
i cant say i like this..

why not only remove it from stealther, ram driver and necro instead of making it absolut useless? and i hope the tanks will take the dmg from the caster otherwise its like a free moc in my eyes oO

Prevents interrupt not damage....

Tue 24 Nov 2020 12:00 AM by nehiz

Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM
Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

Totally agree

Tue 24 Nov 2020 12:04 AM by Forlornhope

Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM
Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

Technically mid can stack two high level aoe dots, just saying lol

Tue 24 Nov 2020 8:03 AM by Sepplord

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 24 Nov 2020 12:04 AM
Technically mid can stack two high level aoe dots, just saying lol

technically yes, practically the spelllevel is high while the dmg is mediocre or low

Tue 24 Nov 2020 9:14 AM by Runental

While im happy to deal 130 value AoE dots once or twice, I am constantly nuked for 140-150 Dots from RR 3 random Mentas and Cabs 😁

Tue 24 Nov 2020 6:44 PM by Tyrlaan

Bry wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 1:31 PM
Removing groundassist doesn’t seem like it will correct the problem. When there were a lot of rangers using volley, volley was nerfed. When there were a lot of complaints about minstrels, releasing the pet to break their mez was needed. Same with bonedancer 4s lifetap.

The problem with gtaoe isn’t groundassist. The problem is that 1 realm has a class with a gtaoe spec that has so much custom utility buffed that makes it the primary spec with little reason to choose the other specs. For wizards, Earth has 8 skill lines in it. The gtaoe specs for eld and runemaster don’t even come close to having that much utility. Those classes have to do hybrid specs. The majority of elds don’t have any gtaoe. Runemasters can reasonably spec it since it’s the debuff line for 8v8s. No other class in the game gets as many tools in 1 spec.

The point is, breaking gtaoe for the entire server to address the problem with earth wizards being overbuffed and having little reason to go fire/ice has lead to a lot of earth wizards spamming gtaoe. The complaints about gtaoe come from mid/hib since albs have 20+ earth wizards zerging down towers.

Also, necros being allowed to set ground targets with their shade and the pet hidden behind a wall for safety is broken. Make it so the pet has to be in line of sight of the shade for a ground target to be placed.

Don’t break a function of the game because of class balanincg issues. Fix the classes.

Earth wizards need nearsight removed (no other realm has 2 classes with nearsight).
Removed debuffs from earth (sorcs already have heat/cold/matter debuff). Debuff bolting for yourself is broken anyways.
Remove the aoe dot from earth. Stacking 2 high level aoe dots (cab and earth wiz) is broken and no other realm can stack 2 high level aoe dots.

The. You have a balanced spec for earth. That fixes the gtaoe overpopulation problem.

Thank you.

And yet, a Mana Eld will have much more utility than an Earth Wizard. Why´s that? Because a Mana Eld gets utility off all their lines while Earth Wizards get root from Ice and that´s it, the rest is just for reducing damage variance - while a lowlevel NS and GTAE often enough serves its purpose.

A Mana Eld is just as zergy a class as an Earth Wizard. Stun nukes, debuffs, disease, PBAE, ranged AoE snare nukes and on top of it, Ichor to get a 1875 range 700 radius AE root they never had as CC - nice to DD a whole zerg as well. A Mana Eld can also respec Light and join 8mans. A Wizard can´t. A Wizard excels at zerg and siege only. Earth is popular and has the GTAE. But there´s much more imbalance in 1 realm getting 2 full specced PBAEs in their popular lines while Wizards have it subspecced at best than there is in 1 1/2 realms getting a specced GTAE and 1 just in a subspec version.

Your suggestions just mean you want to remove the reasons people play Wizards for (albeit only Earth Wizards). But I guess you didn´t think that far...

Tue 24 Nov 2020 7:32 PM by Astaa

lol...

Wed 25 Nov 2020 12:48 PM by Lollie

Can you set ground target by using locs? if so you can still assist in some fashion by one person calling out the co-ordinates and everyone else setting that target. Bit cumbersome if it's possible but not the end of the world, be like a big ass game of Battleships

Wed 25 Nov 2020 1:22 PM by Tyrlaan

Lollie wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Nov 2020 12:48 PM
Can you set ground target by using locs? if so you can still assist in some fashion by one person calling out the co-ordinates and everyone else setting that target. Bit cumbersome if it's possible but not the end of the world, be like a big ass game of Battleships

No you can´t. There´s just /groundset, the key to keep pressed to move your GT by mouse look (and the GT set by clicking somewhere when driving a ram or riding a boat).

Which is why fixing the necro exploit will go a long way in making GTAE less of a problem. Without a constant update on your GT by /groundassisting a necro, most people pick a GT where they happen to hit something and stay with it, only adjusting it if it turns out to be avoided for a longer time.

Wed 25 Nov 2020 2:43 PM by Astaa

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Nov 2020 1:22 PM
Lollie wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Nov 2020 12:48 PM
Can you set ground target by using locs? if so you can still assist in some fashion by one person calling out the co-ordinates and everyone else setting that target. Bit cumbersome if it's possible but not the end of the world, be like a big ass game of Battleships

No you can´t. There´s just /groundset, the key to keep pressed to move your GT by mouse look (and the GT set by clicking somewhere when driving a ram or riding a boat).

Which is why fixing the necro exploit will go a long way in making GTAE less of a problem. Without a constant update on your GT by /groundassisting a necro, most people pick a GT where they happen to hit something and stay with it, only adjusting it if it turns out to be avoided for a longer time.

This, but you also get used to where setting a GT usually nets good results, I've actually got death blows because Albs always rest after a rez in the same place.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 6:30 AM by Tyrlaan

With the 2nd change to GTAE (no rupt with a full tank near) I will probably spec out of the 49/16/16 spec and put those points into Light just because it isn´t worth the hassle to set a good GT only for it to not do its job - rupt the enemy backline (i.e. healers in a coordinated group) in a tower or keep. Of course Earth Wizards will keep their spec for everything else. But I feel it will practically remove GTAE from the game because it can´t be used for what it´s being used anymore. Keeps dumbing down the game.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 8:19 AM by Pingyongyang

First I agree /groundassist is bad and should go.

Does this mean casters can take a full tank up to the murder hole above any keep's inner door and not get interrupted by GTAEs?

This a nerf to keep taking, along with the 2 ram rule. I think it will have the side effect of keeps changing hands less and relics changing hands less. I think we have see relics changing hands go to molasses which makes BGs seem pointless sometimes. A relic needs to change hands every 2-3 weeks to keep things interesting. Now it is more like 2-3 months. That is too long slog of keep taking for one trophy.

Now the sole way to rupt murder hole casters is to stand under the murder hole in a shootout. Before at least you could rupt the murderhole safely out of its sight.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 10:15 AM by Lollie

To be honest there arent a great deal of full tanks running around to make a huge amount of difference, unless everyone suddenly roles one (which i cant see happening)

Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:04 PM by Astaa

Why not? it takes a week absolute tops to level to 50 and get templated.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:24 PM by Sepplord

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:04 PM
Why not? it takes a week absolute tops to level to 50 and get templated.

it takes far less than that, at least if you are talking about playtime (and anything else would be stupid, because someone playing an avergae 30minutes/day will take weeks and someone playing 20hours straight will finish in a day)
lvl50 + templated doesn't bring you on par with your old char though, depending on their RR

That's also why you seldom see small balance changes create big population swings. Someone with 500hours on their main will not switch just because their dmg got nerfed 5%. Because their new char will be soooo much weaker, the break even point in usefullness is hundreds of hours down the road

Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:34 PM by Lollie

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:04 PM
Why not? it takes a week absolute tops to level to 50 and get templated.

Because if tanks were appealing to people they'd be more popular, being able to babysit someone in a tower/keep is hardly movitavion for everyone to suddenly go roll one,

Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:58 PM by Astaa

Well, they will be doing more than just standing there, pushing back, defending floors etc. I can guarantee you mages rushing a floor full of tanks will all of a sudden find they can't do it as effectively any more and the game will adapt. We might actually see people in the zerg play something else except tedious caster groups.

At least with this change we all have time to prepare for it, not getting the rug pulled out over night as per the archer nerfs.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 3:06 PM by Astaa

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:24 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Nov 2020 2:04 PM
Why not? it takes a week absolute tops to level to 50 and get templated.

it takes far less than that, at least if you are talking about playtime (and anything else would be stupid, because someone playing an avergae 30minutes/day will take weeks and someone playing 20hours straight will finish in a day)
lvl50 + templated doesn't bring you on par with your old char though, depending on their RR

That's also why you seldom see small balance changes create big population swings. Someone with 500hours on their main will not switch just because their dmg got nerfed 5%. Because their new char will be soooo much weaker, the break even point in usefullness is hundreds of hours down the road

If you're playing 30 mins a day then you will never get 50 so I probably wouldn't worry about people that casual to be honest

I don't mean that harshly it's just they probably aren't the target audience for a largely time played = result MMO.

And yeah, my void was 50 and templated in about 20 hours solo work, RR4 in less than another 24 hours played.

Thu 26 Nov 2020 3:27 PM by Sepplord

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Nov 2020 3:06 PM
If you're playing 30 mins a day then you will never get 50 so I probably wouldn't worry about people that casual to be honest I don't mean that harshly it's just they probably aren't the target audience for a largely time played = result MMO.

And yeah, my void was 50 and templated in about 20 hours solo work, RR4 in less than another 24 hours played.

It was a random example...i personally play a bit more...not much though but it adds up to about "only" 6-7hours a week and my main is nearing RR10 (i also have several other chars including a few high to medium RRs but those were from the beginning of the server where i also played tons, so those are a different matter)

You claimed "1week absolute tops" but even taking your example, that surely includes preparation, knowledge of the current levelling process, etc... 20hours of solo work in one week boils down to ~3hours a day.
So everyone playing less than 3hours a day is too casual to be worried about?
Just a casual guess from me, but i doubt the majority of the zerging players are people that play an average of 3hours and more every single day.

But thanks for dismissing my claim that people with hundreds of hours don't reroll easily, on assumptions like that. It will surely bring the server forward if we all make a general agreement to only look at things under the assumption that people play at least 3hours a day

I feel like if you are honest you will admit that you only wrote that to humble brag, but i don't think you realise it has more the opposite of an effect on most people ^^

Thu 26 Nov 2020 3:54 PM by Astaa

No, not bragging at all, it is what it is.

I wasn't dismissing anything or anyone and even stated as such

And I really wouldn't care about time invested into a game that could essentially get turned off tomorrow, or a class that can be wiped out on a whim by dev decisions. Play for fun, not as some sort of investment or achievement. My point was that it takes a vanishingly small amount of time to get 50 and templated; and lets be honest here, zerg surfing doesn't exactly require a cutting edge, capped, lifetap template to enjoy.

Sun 6 Dec 2020 9:44 AM by Jerrian

Wow, custom gamebreaking change inc and ppl tell it ´s good. I ´m ok somethings getting fixed as there are some problems, but the way things getting done are bad. Had been enough if necros got disabeled putting a GT.

Sun 6 Dec 2020 3:20 PM by

Uthred

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Dec 2020 12:22 PM
Why were albs and hibs given Ichor? This was a unique Midgard-only ability.

And we wonder why Midgard got the short end of the stick on this server.

Please put down your mid-only glasses. Why dont you ask yourself why Mid got Bof and Sos that were Alb only Ras or Twf, that was Hib only? And to answer your question: The reason is called NNF.

Anyways. This thread is about the GTAoE changes. Please stay on topic. That would help a lot.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 6:56 PM by Pingyongyang

Please put down your mid-only glasses. Why dont you ask yourself why Mid got Bof and Sos that were Alb only Ras or Twf, that was Hib only? And to answer your question: The reason is called NNF.

Play in Mid BG Euro primetime and NA for a month, post some videos and write about your experiences then all glasses come off. Don't play Hib or Alb for a month, only Mid.

Do you think its some grand conspiracy all Mids joke and all cross realmers joke in Mid how it is the realm on hard mode? Or is it just the simple truth.

Post a poll on the Mid board whether Mids want to see you do this. I wonder what the poll results will be.

Mon 7 Dec 2020 7:56 PM by Astaa

You're better in open field and rush zerging, why not use that to your advantage?

Mon 7 Dec 2020 8:24 PM by arithspk

This seems to be a pretty game breaking change that the GMs didn't think all the way through. Saw a couple people post back at the front of the page about BG leads being the only ones able to direct GT during keep sieges properly, which is enough of a hinderance already and 100% correct. Now its changed so there is an entire useless spell for 3 classes. Why not just remove the spell if you wanted to make your own changes? GTAOEs do not hit hard, they only serve to interrupt casters and destroy siege equipment. Now they don't do anything at all, just a waste of a spell. Beckett told me if I wanted to make a suggestion I thought was better to post it here, but I don't have a suggestion to make it better because nothing was wrong, just revert it back to normal, there was no reason for this change, and the GMs haven't given any good reasons for it. As far as the relic keep changes go, its also not very impressive. Seems to be a day late and a dollar short. I recall hib owning all of alb for a month and a half and all the relics and nothing happened then, but 1 mid group runs by to ninja a relic from the hibs while the albs were trying to take it and suddenly we get a patch? We will see how it goes from here, I hope it will make things more "balanced" and easier for whichever realm is low pop at the time, but I have to admit, in the end its probably the wrong way to go. Maybe just add the appropriate number of relic guards like were original to live, and then relic ninjas wont happen.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:32 AM by Astaa

You sound like one of those Albs that has never worked out how to lay a ground target, despite playing a class that uses ground targets.

This amuses me.

Tue 8 Dec 2020 9:04 AM by Sepplord

yeah, seriously...how is the spell useless now just because people have to set targets themselves
the positive about such information though is that it makes it easier to spot the feedback as one that shouldn't be taken serious

Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:08 AM by arithspk

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:32 AM
You sound like one of those Albs that has never worked out how to lay a ground target, despite playing a class that uses ground targets.

This amuses me.

Nothing useful to add though I see. Just blind judgements about other people.

Wed 9 Dec 2020 8:39 AM by Sepplord

arithspk wrote: ↑
Wed 9 Dec 2020 3:08 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 8 Dec 2020 7:32 AM
You sound like one of those Albs that has never worked out how to lay a ground target, despite playing a class that uses ground targets.

This amuses me.
Nothing useful to add though I see. Just blind judgements about other people.

how is it blind?
It's based on what you wrote:

Now its changed so there is an entire useless spell

There is only one scenario where the spell is now entirely useless, and that is if you don't know how to set a groundtarget.

Thu 17 Dec 2020 6:29 AM by VonSchneiderr

Really appreciate the change!
Took a break of 6 months and now playing with my drood again, defending keeps is so much more fun and feels much smoother cause you arent interrupted by GTAOE out of nowhere all the time.
Game feels even more tactical because you have to coordinate movement with your full tanks.

Fri 25 Dec 2020 2:43 PM by Topas

Anaethema wrote: ↑
Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:41 AM
Removing a mechanic that has been in the game for 20 years is a REALLY stupid idea. How about just remove /groundassist for Necros and let the rest of us continue to play the game we have loved for 20 years?

Who am I kidding? The devs here never listen.

They removed it because the albs have learned to use it. It's like all the last years "Nerv Albs Frist!" for any price.