Friar Changes Round 2

Started 20 Mar 2019
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
Friars will receive the following changes in the coming days:

- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

The reasoning is that while friars are ok in general, albion groups basically don't have the "warden spot" available. With this change we expect cleric + friar to be comparable to cleric + cleric as the heal team, obviously with trade offs and variable viability depending on the setup. We considered other possibilities but decided against buffing their chances to fill a melee dps spot.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:24 PM by Deathmachine
hows about you tune down the staff dammage then lol
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:25 PM by florin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:17 PM
Friars will receive the following changes in the coming days:

- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

The reasoning is that while friars are ok in general, albion groups basically don't have the "warden spot" available. With this change we expect cleric + friar to be comparable to cleric + cleric as the heal team, obviously with trade offs and variable viability depending on the setup. We considered other possibilities but decided against buffing their chances to fill a melee dps spot.

Interested to see this play out - thanks again for trying new things
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:30 PM by yasow
Please stay on topic.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:39 PM by chryso
Has the char planner been updated with these changes?
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by Ardri
Good change.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:43 PM by Sym
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:17 PM
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

Interesting, but wouldn't be better to increase the proc rate from 15 to 25% like it's on LIVE (as far as I remember) ? or the value of the heal proc ? Because at lower spec in rejuv (24 points, exactly), 45 heal seems really low considering the current proc rate ratio. Especially since friars are most likely going to use a slow staff, the proc RARELY triggers. So when it triggers, if it has to be AT LEAST efficient, it has to be a 100-ish value, like a proc heal from Alchy.

Well, since you made it a group buff it might be a slightly different perspective now because with more people in mele, the chances to trigger the proc will increase, but it will still be a very low value heal.

Some people said to remove the heal group proc from the spec line to the base line, then every friar would have access to the last heal proc without having to spend 45+ points in the rejuv line (which sounds really crazy and a dumb sacrifice for that kind of stuff).
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:48 PM by Cider
Although these changes are a good step, I still believe they need 1.8 points per lvl in combination with this so rejuv can be specced higher in order to try and fill the role you intend since they will still lack the instas. A friar needs a min of 45 enh IMO which limits their spec options pretty badly ATM. 1.8 points should encourage higher rej spec over raising staff due to the higher staff styles not being that great/worth the costs over raising rej.

But we will have to see how this change goes first.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:48 PM by Fore29
While the nearsight cure is appreciated, the rest are somewhat underwhelming. Friars need more group utility, and the heal proc off melee is not any appreciable utility that anyone considers of great value. Furthermore, this will not make friar/cleric equivalent to cleric/cleric as a heal team -- the friar's lack of spread heal and instants will always make it inferior due to its susceptibility to interrupts and dependence on LOS.

Friars should have received the ability to cast their HoT instantly (i.e. in combat), and maybe some other form of group utility (I know no one wants to hear that Alb needs celerity, but there's a reason that Alb melee is at the bottom of the played toons).
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM by hend
I personaly totally disagree with this kind of balance patch.

I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance. To me, especially on a server where its very easy to level, people should at least have 2 characters, one good in group and another one made for fun and to fit in specific setups and situations, like the friar. If they only will to play a friar, they have to accept the fact sometimes they will not get a slot or they have to build their own group to make a specific setup fitting with their class.
What you aim for is impossible or you ll change the game too much and make mistakes as BS did on live.

Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

I also want to talk about the skald, to me its not off topic, because to me you already did what i considere as a mistake. To me its even worst, because the class didn't needed to be balanced to aim being grouped, because speed 6 was a must have, NF RAs with purge 5 was really good to counter the only weaknesss (the root) and NF anger of god was also a very good ra. The skald was already necessary in every group, useful, strong in every style of play and a class played by a huge amount of players.
And then you decided to add determination... The skald is now totally broken in solo/small group, its impossible to CC and it totally broke the balance.
But, in full group,, i don't really see a huge difference. To me, what you aim for, adding deter on skald to make them groupable, it was useless, it didn't change anything, you just broke the side action. Some groups are now also playing with 2 skalds which is negative for some other classes who lost their potential slot.

If you follow this logic to the end of changing every good solo/small group class to make it musthave in every group, you ll have to make it for every class. So whats the next step ? Add chain on stealthers ? Stoicisme and casted disease on VW ?

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:55 PM by Sym
is there any others class than the friar which doesn't have its primary stats leveling up through levels ?

Aside all the upcoming changes that can be made, wouldn't it be wise to make the Dexterity a primary (or secondary ? ) stats of the friar, allowing them to earn dexterity points per levels and then increasing every aspects of the class that actually rely on this stat ?
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:55 PM by Luluko
I really dont like the idea of a 2h class hitting a chain class for 200+ with backsnare and having evade 5+ and stunfield getting more grp utility its already hard enough to kill a cleric with the limited trust damage you can do in mid. But a friar with grp hot, that evade able to specc moparry, and having the absorb of almost chain classes. And if the char builder is right they can easiely specc 34 reju for second grp hot, 45 enhance for yellow resist and best absorb and 34 staff for the backsnare...

Just missing cele chant and he is almost as op as paladins on live....
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:01 PM by hend
Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:55 PM
I really dont like the idea of a 2h class hitting a chain class for 200+ with backsnare and having evade 5+ and stunfield getting more grp utility its already hard enough to kill a cleric with the limited trust damage you can do in mid. But a friar with grp hot, that evade able to specc moparry, and having the absorb of almost chain classes. And if the char builder is right they can easiely specc 34 reju for second grp hot, 45 enhance for yellow resist and best absorb and 34 staff for the backsnare...

Just missing cele chant and he almost as op as paladins on live....

You forgot to mention the 27 seconds peel
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:02 PM by keen
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
So whats the next step ? Add chain and deter on stealthers ?
It's nnf Ra's so stealther already have det
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:10 PM by FreK
Good changes, but you're trying to compete with a Cleric. They will lose this match up in almost every way because of the strength of pure support RAs such as DI/PR/BoF.

Make endurance reduction a group-cast so they can compete with Paladin. IMO this would bring Friar into a viable space for the support mele slot a paladin/warden occupies.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:11 PM by Sym
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
I personaly totally disagree with this kind of balance patch.

I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance. To me, especially on a server where its very easy to level, people should at least have 2 characters, one good in group and another one made for fun and to fit in specific setups and situations, like the friar. If they only will to play a friar, they have to accept the fact sometimes they will not get a slot or they have to build their own group to make a specific setup fitting with their class.

Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

I also want to talk about the skald, to me its not off topic, because to me you already did what i considere as a mistake. To me its even worst, because the class didn't needed to be balanced to aim being grouped, because speed 6 was a must have, NF RAs with purge 5 was really good to counter the only weaknesss (the root) and NF anger of god was also a very good ra. The skald was already necessary in every group, useful, strong in every style of play and a class played by a huge amount of players.
And then you decided to add determination... The skald is now totally broken in solo/small group, its impossible to CC and it totally broke the balance.
But, in full group,, i don't really see a huge difference. To me, what you aim for, adding deter on skald to make them groupable, it was useless, it didn't change anything, you just broke the side action. Some groups are now also playing with 2 skalds which is negative for some other classes who lost their potential slot.

If you follow this logic to the end of changing every good solo/small group class to make it musthave in every group, you ll have to make it for every class. So whats the next step ? Add chain on stealthers ? Stoicisme and casted disease on VW ?

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.

Friar is far from being a "fun class only good at solo'ing". The only classes than should fit well (due to their class design) in solo should remain the stealthers. The only fact than they can dodge most of the zerg situations by remaining hidden and choose their targets says a lot about the HUGE difference between what you consider being a solo class and what it's not. Like the Friar.

Friar awesome in solo ? You should reconsider your definition of words. They are trash at low RR, if you've been wrecked by one of them, it doesn't mean they're awesome lol. They start doing something in solo once they have access to purge 2 / Reflex Attack 4, otherwise they're FREE rps for almost everyone considering the current buffpots fiesta.
And having to rely on a passiv RA in order to be at least able to start being "decent" in solo is kinda funny in my eyes.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by dbeattie71
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
I personaly totally disagree with this kind of balance patch.

I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance. To me, especially on a server where its very easy to level, people should at least have 2 characters, one good in group and another one made for fun and to fit in specific setups and situations, like the friar. If they only will to play a friar, they have to accept the fact sometimes they will not get a slot or they have to build their own group to make a specific setup fitting with their class.

Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

I also want to talk about the skald, to me its not off topic, because to me you already did what i considere as a mistake. To me its even worst, because the class didn't needed to be balanced to aim being grouped, because speed 6 was a must have, NF RAs with purge 5 was really good to counter the only weaknesss (the root) and NF anger of god was also a very good ra. The skald was already necessary in every group, useful, strong in every style of play and a class played by a huge amount of players.
And then you decided to add determination... The skald is now totally broken in solo/small group, its impossible to CC and it totally broke the balance.
But, in full group,, i don't really see a huge difference. To me, what you aim for, adding deter on skald to make them groupable, it was useless, it didn't change anything, you just broke the side action. Some groups are now also playing with 2 skalds which is negative for some other classes who lost their potential slot.

If you follow this logic to the end of changing every good solo/small group class to make it musthave in every group, you ll have to make it for every class. So whats the next step ? Add chain on stealthers ? Stoicisme and casted disease on VW ?

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.

There’s already a stealther with chain 😀
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by hend
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
They start doing something in solo once they have access to purge 2 / Reflex Attack, otherwise they're FREE rps for almost everyone considering the current buffpots fiesta.

Like every class. Every solo class is weak when 1L1.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:14 PM by Raec
Now people can just park a friar bot in atk and run back every 20 min for the group buff for 7 people, than relog the cleri.

Make it a conc buff or many solo will try to bypass the dual log rules and log their "wife" friar acc just for that buff.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Cami
Very good changes!
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:22 PM by Sym
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
They start doing something in solo once they have access to purge 2 / Reflex Attack, otherwise they're FREE rps for almost everyone considering the current buffpots fiesta.

Like every class. Every solo class is weak when 1L1.

And Purge 2 + Reflex Attack 4 = 4L2 as a MINIMUM. 4L2 is high RR to you ?

Friar are awesome at RR 4L2 ? You dream way too much. Way too much.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:23 PM by Luluko
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
And having to rely on a passiv RA in order to be at least able to start being "decent" in solo is kinda funny in my eyes.
every tank with det could say the same but they cant cast heals if rooted, and compared to shaman friar is pretty good at least he isnt victim to every assassin if moc and ichor arent up and you just need st1 for those kind of fights then only vanish and sos will be the reason you dont get rps in 1vs1 and like most classes you need purge2-3 for solo ofc
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:25 PM by jonl
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
I personaly totally disagree with this kind of balance patch.

I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance. To me, especially on a server where its very easy to level, people should at least have 2 characters, one good in group and another one made for fun and to fit in specific setups and situations, like the friar. If they only will to play a friar, they have to accept the fact sometimes they will not get a slot or they have to build their own group to make a specific setup fitting with their class.
What you aim for is impossible or you ll change the game too much and make mistakes as BS did on live.

Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

I also want to talk about the skald, to me its not off topic, because to me you already did what i considere as a mistake. To me its even worst, because the class didn't needed to be balanced to aim being grouped, because speed 6 was a must have, NF RAs with purge 5 was really good to counter the only weaknesss (the root) and NF anger of god was also a very good ra. The skald was already necessary in every group, useful, strong in every style of play and a class played by a huge amount of players.
And then you decided to add determination... The skald is now totally broken in solo/small group, its impossible to CC and it totally broke the balance.
But, in full group,, i don't really see a huge difference. To me, what you aim for, adding deter on skald to make them groupable, it was useless, it didn't change anything, you just broke the side action. Some groups are now also playing with 2 skalds which is negative for some other classes who lost their potential slot.

If you follow this logic to the end of changing every good solo/small group class to make it musthave in every group, you ll have to make it for every class. So whats the next step ? Add chain on stealthers ? Stoicisme and casted disease on VW ?

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.

i agree with u regarding skald and the effects on small man as a whole, but i don't think u will still see many friars in an 8 man, you mentioned alb tanker, have you seen an alb tanker group on this server?

i don't think you can really talk about balance changes without mentioning warden, which is the most op class on the server by far with the changes devs have made
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:27 PM by jonl
FreK wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Good changes, but you're trying to compete with a Cleric. They will lose this match up in almost every way because of the strength of pure support RAs such as DI/PR/BoF.

Make endurance reduction a group-cast so they can compete with Paladin. IMO this would bring Friar into a viable space for the support mele slot a paladin/warden occupies.


this
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:32 PM by Ardri
jonl wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:27 PM
FreK wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Good changes, but you're trying to compete with a Cleric. They will lose this match up in almost every way because of the strength of pure support RAs such as DI/PR/BoF.

Make endurance reduction a group-cast so they can compete with Paladin. IMO this would bring Friar into a viable space for the support mele slot a paladin/warden occupies.


this

Eh, give it endo reduc and why would you ever run a paladin over friar?

These changes are very interesting. Not broken like Hend makes it seem. I dont think friar will take 2nd cleric spot. But mayyybe they can be the 3rd healer in a more melee centered group with only sorc/theurg caster.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:36 PM by Joc
I don't currently play alb and I approve of these changes. I want better competition all around. This was needed. Friars SHOULD be in most groups now. Resists, peels, good group Ra's, buffs, and heals. I look forward to seeing the new group makeup on alb.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:38 PM by Cami
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:32 PM
These changes are very interesting. Not broken like Hend makes it seem. I dont think friar will take 2nd cleric spot. But mayyybe they can be the 3rd healer in a more melee centered group with only sorc/theurg caster.
Indeed!
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:38 PM by Milchschnidde
As from the standpoint as a Hib, sounds interesting - i hope it wont break the entire game meta... looking forward to see how it works out.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:42 PM by hend
jonl wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:25 PM
i agree with u regarding skald and the effects on small man as a whole, but i don't think u will still see many friars in an 8 man, you mentioned alb tanker, have you seen an alb tanker group on this server?

i don't think you can really talk about balance changes without mentioning warden, which is the most op class on the server by far with the changes devs have made

Yep i also agree with you. What i mean is : i m scared about the general politic of trying to balance everything to make everything viable, and at the end break the whole game. Thats what i tried to demonstrate. At the end we can discuss for hours about the friar change itself, is it op or not etc.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:46 PM by Ardri
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
Like every class. Every solo class is weak when 1L1.

If you run a friar in cleric slot you will

Lose: 2 instas, castable stun, cleric RAs (pr/bof/di), chain wearer
Gain: side snare (can't get lvl 34 staff backsnare), ST, underwhelming 15% offensive 75 heal proc, resists if you aren't running a pally, det cloth wearer

The 2 instas alone are worth a lot. You can't rely on a backup healer/shaman or bard/warden like on the other realms. It's debatable.

Personally, i think more groups will just run a 3rd heal slot now. We'll see a lot more friars and less reavers/paladins.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:48 PM by Sharky04
I do worry about Minstrel + Friar duos with purple pet and 50%+ heat resis. This will break sever balance. I agree that Friars needed buffs, but don't do buffs without toning down overpowered classes, especially the Minstrel.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:57 PM by Ashenspire
Yeah, there's no way this helps Friar compete with a 2nd cleric for that spot.

2 healer and 2 druid are staples in hib groups. Friar + cleric won't have the healing throughput to compete with the damage the enemy groups will dish out, not to mention the lack of RAs the Friar has access to compared to the Cleric.

It's neat, but taking a friar is still an impediment to your group comp.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:04 PM by Sym
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:57 PM
Yeah, there's no way this helps Friar compete with a 2nd cleric for that spot.

2 healer and 2 druid are staples in hib groups. Friar + cleric won't have the healing throughput to compete with the damage the enemy groups will dish out, not to mention the lack of RAs the Friar has access to compared to the Cleric.

It's neat, but taking a friar is still an impediment to your group comp.

There's absolutely nothing in those changes that would break the game balance, lol. The heal proc will remain useless as long as friars won't spec 45+ in rejuv, which is already an insane sacrifice for a hybrid class and so few spec points. And even at 45+ (48 points, exactly, roflmao) the proc rate ratio makes the heal proc pretty useless in a fight.

NS heals is indeed a great tool to have, but I don't see where it will breaks balance neither, here.

As for the cleric slot, I agree, they still won't be as good as cleric, and they shouldn't be as good as them anyways.

But hell yeah, Friars are "awesome" like Hend said.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:07 PM by hend
Don't forget that the RA points you are gaining not geting id etc. you get det + passive healing RAs instead. Thats what we did on live for years, i played and fought with and against cleric+friar support groups.
To me its possible to 1 cleric, you have buff charges to gain con, friar essentially bring the resists, its now a good healer, it can peel/ST/clean his own pets and has access to deter. I want to see the effect of all these procs in a group with 2 grannies, a cab pet and a red levian constantly hitting targets.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:09 PM by Tharlin
This makes it even worse to find groups for battle-friars.
Staff is a unique spec-line in this game and it's complete useless for groups. That's like you would make Scythe-damage on VWs so low, that it would not get a spot in hib melee groups.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:17 PM by Ardri
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:07 PM
I want to see the effect of all these procs in a group with 2 grannies, a cab pet and a red levian constantly hitting targets.

This is the only interesting thing for 8man. Will offensive heal procs work on pets attacking?

You always think casters, but it will not matter that much for caster setup. Most times caster will get bursted and die because only 1 single insta and 1 group insta.

I'm more interested in tank/hybrid group with 2cleric, friar, sorc/theurg, 3 melee. 3 healers, with hot, red pbt, AND offensive proc is a lot of heals/survivability for tanky targets.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:25 PM by Arkeon
Rip Pala XD
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:26 PM by yasow
Again, please stay on topic. Stop whataboutisms, thanks.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:28 PM by Raec
Recastable when theu pets are up?

Repeat, make it a conc buff to avoid exploit of every type
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:07 PM by FFpheonix
I think the flaw to this design choice is Friars still need about 800 additional Skill Points to be viable (around 3000 Skill Points.)

To me the Spec that makes them efficient enough to fill the Cleric Group slot is:

40 Rejuvenation
47 Enhancement
34 Staff

or

48 Rejuvenation
38 Enhancement
34 Staff

Fix the Primary Stat for Friars so that they gain Dex instead of Str while leveling, then consider lowering their melee damage scaling.

**edit fixed some numbers
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:23 PM by BisbyHoughton
Hmmm not really sure what to make of these but looking forward to seeing how it plays out and thank the devs for continuing to assess the class. I run small-man stuff almost exclusively so this isn't going to be doing much for me either way and that's fine.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:51 PM by ashmir_daoc
Seems like some major changes that just aren't necessary. Hend said much of my thoughts on the matter. Something I want to add to it currently is this "Warden spot" in a hib group. Everything works together & synergizes in different ways; Hib groups often only have 4 (or even 3) offensive classes in group to get everything offered by another realm. Alb has 6 potential sources of damage with any of its current hybrid or caster setups (actually 8 - the Clerics have a baseline nuke that can and is used on occasion, but that's not the point), and that's not including all of the pets. You give up something by running that "Warden Spot" just like Hibernia gives up a potential DPS by running said Warden.

That's not a good enough justification for buffing something by itself.

Hib has to run two Druids to have a single NS cure just like Albs had to run two Clerics to do that, so there is/was parity. Cure NS on a 2nd class is HUGE and will have a much greater impact on group vs group fights than it seems most people think. Now you can have all of the resist buffs, yellow spec buffs, and a cure nearsight and still have your 6 dps/disruptors in an Alb group. Meanwhile Hib is stuck running 3 or 4 dps to do the same. More heals don't win fights; better control (interrupts) do, and Alb is and always has been throughout the entire history of this game the king of controlling fights.

If this change is pushed through, it should be heavily considered to give Shamans (who 99% won't spec for) and Wardens the cure NS spell. That opens up 5 dps groups on Hib, so they can run true (3-2 or 2-3) hybrid groups. Mid already has the capability to have 2 cure nearsights, and Shamans rarely spec high mend, so it's negligible, but at least there's parity.

I don't think you should move forward with any of those, however. Hend spoke of the conditions on live; it's a slippery slope when you start doing things like this. What seems like tiny changes end up making huge meta-shifting changes down the road. Friar has been the "main" healer in Alb groups on live for close to a decade now, and almost no Alb group ever runs 2 clerics. You may think that's cool and important, but as I said, it begins a slippery slope. Suddenly you give Wardens & cure NS to Wardens for parity reasons. Then you give Shamans something else, and now, well, you have to give Friars something else to compensate again. It snowballs into absurdity, where you end up with a backline healer that has better heals than the supposed primary healer, has more spec points, has different (yet better in many cases) RAs, ridiculous peeling capability... next thing you know, they're getting cure mez & sorcs/healers/enchanters are getting speed 5.

I really like what you've done with this server - keeping the 1.65 feel but upgrading many of the QoL problems - but this sends up red flags to me. This screams of the beginnings of the past 5-7 years of Broadsword's colossal f-ups. I hope you will reconsider, at least with the Cure Nearsight.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:59 PM by BaldEagle
so in order to make friar relevant, you have buffed all albs who are already running ridiculously strong caster grps with 4+ pets and a thuerg. Now we have to deal with them having heat and cold resists increased.... sweet.

First pally, now friars... anyone else going to get a buff. I can think of a couple classes.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:03 PM by noflex
0 impact on the solo game friars

im not giving up utility to boost rejuv for these changes since our skill pts are so low

only pure heal friars will benefit really
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:29 PM by waffel
Guess tweaking friar is easier than even beginning to look at archers. Gotta love that back burner.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:37 PM by Sym
ashmir_daoc wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:51 PM
[...]

Hend was the worst example to refer to, here, actually.
I don't even see where his thoughts are going to make yours better.

Friar is nowhere near an "awesome" char in either solo / smallman / grp, atm, as Hend stated. I'm wondering if you guys have ever tried to play Friar once on here (even with its custom changes compared to 1.65).

Then arguing Friar is awesome in solo and should be treat as a solo character is one of the dumbest thing ever read. As I said, only the STEALTHERS should remain solo classes. Even classes which have access to movespeed like Minstrel or Skald perform much better than a Friar just because they can dodge zerg / groups thanks to their movespeed. Friar is by FAR the worst class to solo with, atm. Unless you like to /release every 10 minutes because, ho wait, you cannot being stealth, you cannot run away quickly, you don't have a stun, etc.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:45 PM by sebbo
Interesting. Game meta prevents friars to be grouped in RvR.
So it will be changed.

Whats next? Earthwizz getting insta ae mezz and self-demezz and stuff?

When one class gets balanced, other classes get nerfed meanwhile. So other classes will have to be buffed in a while. When constantly trying to "balance" the meta, classes lose their unique skills. This furthermore leads to a completely custom game.

Once the first hype on the server drops a bit (as population will over time anyways), new players will come to the server and im pretty sure most of them wont play here, since this won´t be DAoC anymore. Just another game, only looking like DAoC.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:51 PM by Sym
sebbo wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:45 PM
Interesting. Game meta prevents friars to be grouped in RvR.
So it will be changed.

Whats next? Earthwizz getting insta ae mezz and self-demezz and stuff?

When one class gets balanced, other classes get nerfed meanwhile. So other classes will have to be buffed in a while. When constantly trying to "balance" the meta, classes lose their unique skills. This furthermore leads to a completely custom game.

Once the first hype on the server drops a bit (as population will over time anyways), new players will come to the server and im pretty sure most of them wont play here, since this won´t be DAoC anymore. Just another game, only looking like DAoC.

And what about Thane changes, did it break the game balance ? What about poison changes for ShadowBlade decreasing WeapSkill/Cons instead of Strength/Con ? It's funny how it's a straight direct Friar nerf. Friar already suffers a huge WeapSkill loss because of its low dexterity due to DEX not being one of his primary stats and therefore we have to face a poison custom change that decreases it even more ?

Do you also QQ about other custom changes or is it only straight aimed to Friar ones ?
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:01 PM by gruenesschaf
sebbo wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:45 PM
Interesting. Game meta prevents friars to be grouped in RvR.
So it will be changed.

Whats next? Earthwizz getting insta ae mezz and self-demezz and stuff?

When one class gets balanced, other classes get nerfed meanwhile. So other classes will have to be buffed in a while. When constantly trying to "balance" the meta, classes lose their unique skills. This furthermore leads to a completely custom game.

Once the first hype on the server drops a bit (as population will over time anyways), new players will come to the server and im pretty sure most of them wont play here, since this won´t be DAoC anymore. Just another game, only looking like DAoC.

The unchanging and everlasting meta of DAoC, the only MMO that has been released with version 1.65 and never seen a change.

In case you haven't noticed, quite a few changes have already been done before launch or some even since launch and we have always said we will look at how things develop and do changes as needed, we are not trying to replicate a specific patch level.

Some will dislike some changes, some will like some changes, as is always the case with any kind of change. Will we make a mistake with some change that will have unintended consequences? Absolutely, does that mean those changes can't be further changed to avoid those consequences or that those changes can't be reverted? No.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:06 PM by Ardri
ashmir_daoc wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:51 PM
Seems like some major changes that just aren't necessary. Hend said much of my thoughts on the matter. Something I want to add to it currently is this "Warden spot" in a hib group. Everything works together & synergizes in different ways; Hib groups often only have 4 (or even 3) offensive classes in group to get everything offered by another realm. Alb has 6 potential sources of damage with any of its current hybrid or caster setups (actually 8 - the Clerics have a baseline nuke that can and is used on occasion, but that's not the point), and that's not including all of the pets. You give up something by running that "Warden Spot" just like Hibernia gives up a potential DPS by running said Warden.

That's not a good enough justification for buffing something by itself.

Hib has to run two Druids to have a single NS cure just like Albs had to run two Clerics to do that, so there is/was parity. Cure NS on a 2nd class is HUGE and will have a much greater impact on group vs group fights than it seems most people think. Now you can have all of the resist buffs, yellow spec buffs, and a cure nearsight and still have your 6 dps/disruptors in an Alb group. Meanwhile Hib is stuck running 3 or 4 dps to do the same. More heals don't win fights; better control (interrupts) do, and Alb is and always has been throughout the entire history of this game the king of controlling fights.

If this change is pushed through, it should be heavily considered to give Shamans (who 99% won't spec for) and Wardens the cure NS spell. That opens up 5 dps groups on Hib, so they can run true (3-2 or 2-3) hybrid groups. Mid already has the capability to have 2 cure nearsights, and Shamans rarely spec high mend, so it's negligible, but at least there's parity.

I don't think you should move forward with any of those, however. Hend spoke of the conditions on live; it's a slippery slope when you start doing things like this. What seems like tiny changes end up making huge meta-shifting changes down the road. Friar has been the "main" healer in Alb groups on live for close to a decade now, and almost no Alb group ever runs 2 clerics. You may think that's cool and important, but as I said, it begins a slippery slope. Suddenly you give Wardens & cure NS to Wardens for parity reasons. Then you give Shamans something else, and now, well, you have to give Friars something else to compensate again. It snowballs into absurdity, where you end up with a backline healer that has better heals than the supposed primary healer, has more spec points, has different (yet better in many cases) RAs, ridiculous peeling capability... next thing you know, they're getting cure mez & sorcs/healers/enchanters are getting speed 5.

I really like what you've done with this server - keeping the 1.65 feel but upgrading many of the QoL problems - but this sends up red flags to me. This screams of the beginnings of the past 5-7 years of Broadsword's colossal f-ups. I hope you will reconsider, at least with the Cure Nearsight.

Ever heard of the butterfly affect? Make one small tiny change many years ago and it completely changes the outcome of a complex future?
Yea, this is nothing like that lol.

The reason 1 cleric 1 friar worked is because you and everyone around you had 10 toys to keep you alive with ToA/MLs/RR5s/other boosted classes/abilities. It's not like that here. Caster gets bursted with no cleric instas up? 9x out of 10 ya dead.

I applaud them for making changes to the lowest RR class in the game which was arguably dead. Much rather tiny small changes like this than nothing on Uthgard.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:27 PM by Niix
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.


I don't think you know what you're talking about tbh...

Friar right now has to sacrifice staff for red resists and good heals, with these changes I still don't think you want to run 1 cleric 1 friar... 2nd cleric brings way too much in Realm Abilities and group heal capability... you don't gain any value as a solo friar with these changes because you still don't spec higher rejuv cuz you have to keep staff high.

I think these changes were 100% designed around not breaking friar as a solo class which as you mentioned are already a good class. They still don't do enough to justify replacing a cleric (to me), they do provide better opportunity to put a 3rd healer ... if only for cure NS.
The greater heal is not worth given power issues friars already will have, they will need to use the major for mana efficiency.
The heal proc (remains to be seen) will struggle in gaining value as its friars only real 'group heal' and will see no value in caster groups which are the 90%...tank groups generally take the Pally.

I would have rather seen End Reduction buff made group and nerfed to 15% at red spell.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:50 PM by noflex
why cant you make dex primary leveled stat for friar's this would have been a small tweak that would have benefited way more than extra frilly heals
Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:06 PM by Miscanthus
Nice changes. Wondering if the group heal proc will make melee groups more common.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:08 PM by Ice
This is a much welcomed change. Not even having anything to do with my 1st 50 here being my friar...he had to be shelved because I was able to find less groups wanting a friar than a necro in RvR. (see the issue there?)

Friars will still not have the best cleric heal utility which is their insta heals, so I don't see the big problem. And griping about issues before you've even seen it in action is just winey BS.

"OMG NO! The underpopulated realm is getting a minor heal change to 1 toon? SO UNBALANCED! Fix our realm first since Alb is too dumb to run melee train groups like they should be doing." (I added that last part myself...it's frustrating as an Alb to not see this meta used more on this realm)

Ok I'm done. In short, just see how the changes affect things once they have been made before bi@#$ing about it before hand...

*Edit: Not looking for a hand out, but will this change come with a free respec given the changes?
Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:45 PM by seanbud
Unless Albion gets a 9th slot I still don't think we can squeeze a Friar into any good comps. Cleric Instas/RAs are too good to be replaced, and friar is awkward to work into alb tanker or caster setup imo. idk maybe these changes are enough, will have to try it and see.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:53 PM by Blitze
A step in the right direction!

Lets see how these changes go as I’d love it if they made more people play friars and play with friars!
Thu 21 Mar 2019 12:00 AM by jg777
While no longer playing Albion I’m happy to see Friars get boosted. We’ll wait to see feedback from the changes and I’m very interested in the heal proc change but I’ll echo some sentiments already expressed and some of my own;

1) Why not make Dexterity the primary stat of Friars?

Seems it’d help Friars over all (some of us argue it’d fix an unintended mistake that went uncorrected from many years ago).

2) How about giving Friar access to Perfect Recovery RA?

The argument made by Phoenix staff is these changes are intended to assist Friars in competing for one of the two Cleric spots potentially by offering better healing, a better group heal prod buff, along with great resists and other attributes that differ from Clerics but allow them to be a viable healer role. Friars may need a better resurrect to assist reclaiming fallen comrades in battle (or in the aftermath) so a Cleric doesn’t have to continually be the primary one resurrecting. By giving it an RA to assist resurrect abilities instead of in their spec lines this forces Friars to divert some Realm Skill Points to do this- I.e no additional “freebies”. Additionally, this ability is on a timer, and can’t be overly used.

3) Increase the heal proc value, not rate?

Many have called for, and remain so, calling for the healproc value to be raised. To put so much skill points into a line to reach the heal proc buff the value given needs to be more significant than “oh, that’s nice, but not necessarily needed”. Alternatively, consider putting this buff in the baseline so Friars have more flexibility in their specialization specs.

4) Give Friar access to 1st Divine Intervention RA.

One of the reasons Friars will have difficulty with competing with a Cleric for a group slot is the instants and RA’s they have. While Instant healing may be to unbalancing, allowing Friars access to a group friendly healing RA, although restricted, might help propel them for replacing a second Cleric in a group.


I look forward to seeing more Friars running around in the future!
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:26 AM by ashmir_daoc
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:37 PM
ashmir_daoc wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 8:51 PM
[...]

Hend was the worst example to refer to, here, actually.
I don't even see where his thoughts are going to make yours better.

Hend is one of the best players I've ever seen play on any patch level (probably the best caster MA to have ever played the game tbh), and his thoughts in regard to group balance echo mine, so I'll stand by what I said. I have no idea who you are or even what type of game you play, but the fact that you have called Hend out multiple times for not knowing what he's talking about tells me pretty much all I need to know at this point. Personally, I have no interest in arguing with people about varying playstyles that I don't partake in, nor even debating on an online forum with anybody who disagrees with anything I post on the playstyles that I do play. The devs posted; I gave them feedback, not you. Continue spamming this thread and arguing with anybody who disagrees if you like, but it's not something I will waste any further time on. I wish you well.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:35 AM by ashmir_daoc
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:06 PM
The reason 1 cleric 1 friar worked is because you and everyone around you had 10 toys to keep you alive with ToA/MLs/RR5s/other boosted classes/abilities. It's not like that here. Caster gets bursted with no cleric instas up? 9x out of 10 ya dead.

As should be the case. Caster shouldn't be caught out of position for this unless the fight is already over, and in a group with a friar in it, they have considerably more resists against the damage types that get debuff nuked, so the damage is easier to heal through. Not to mention the vast number of pets and extreme range advantage a typical Alb hybrid or caster group has to win the interrupt battle. If you are needing instas to save those casters, then it is most likely operator error and not a balance issue at all.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:16 AM by Ashman
ashmir_daoc wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:26 AM
Hend is one of the best players I've ever seen play on any patch level

are you 12?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:18 AM by Darkfae
Deathmachine wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:24 PM
hows about you tune down the staff dammage then lol

Lets not, and say we did.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:18 AM by Jingo NZ
These changes are very small, but they're not nothing.
This is a cool approach by the dev's, a very soft handed way of adapting classes at the lower tier levels.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM by Ardri
ashmir_daoc wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:35 AM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:06 PM
The reason 1 cleric 1 friar worked is because you and everyone around you had 10 toys to keep you alive with ToA/MLs/RR5s/other boosted classes/abilities. It's not like that here. Caster gets bursted with no cleric instas up? 9x out of 10 ya dead.

As should be the case. Caster shouldn't be caught out of position for this unless the fight is already over, and in a group with a friar in it, they have considerably more resists against the damage types that get debuff nuked, so the damage is easier to heal through. Not to mention the vast number of pets and extreme range advantage a typical Alb hybrid or caster group has to win the interrupt battle. If you are needing instas to save those casters, then it is most likely operator error and not a balance issue at all.

Saying casters should never be out of position is like saying every inc you get should be a good one. It doesn't work like that. People get cc'd, people get assisted on, not every fight is an arena 8v8. And paladins can already fill the resist role with single cold/heat chant.

I'm just saying it's not nearly as busted as you and Hend make it out to be. It's very debatable.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM by Niget
Darkfae wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:18 AM
Deathmachine wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:24 PM
hows about you tune down the staff dammage then lol

Lets not, and say we did.

No, this should be looked at.
So they get far better heals and cures!
They also get far better damage!

Now a jack of all trades class can fully take on 3 different roles with near full effectiveness.

Balance works as a give and take.
Want better support capability?
Take some dps capability.

Now they are an effective dps and main healer?

Give wardens 2h and the same damage boost!
I bet we would hear some crying over that.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:47 AM by Ceen
No spread heal
No insta heal
No PR
No DI
No BoF
No invite
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:10 AM by Blitze
Right @ Niget?

what specc n RAs do suggest to attain this status as a “effective DPS and main healer” bearing in mind 46ench is minimum needed for grp play?

(I think 39+ staff, 40+rejuv, 46+ench is not possible)
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:44 AM by noise
Blitze wrote: Right @ Niget?

what specc n RAs do suggest to attain this status as a “effective DPS and main healer” bearing in mind 46ench is minimum needed for grp play?

(I think 39+ staff, 40+rejuv, 46+ench is not possible)

32 rejuv gives a blue greater heal and groupprocc, cure ns and a blue grouphot
46 Buff for red heat and maxed selfbuffs
34 staff for backsnare and still decent damage (easy to reach 50 staff here)

That does sound like an all around package to me. Friar also can specc Vehement Renewal for the "group insta" and also det for less CC unlike the clerics.


PS: where can i sign up for whatever random buffs for other classes?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:46 AM by Zomgasm
Being one of the Friars that toughed it out on the Friar RP chart a bit until I finally rerolled, the changes are definitely appreciated that slightly open up more options.

The Cure NS is the biggest of the changes that would impact your viability in a 8-man. However there are other issues surrounding the utility, the group heal proc being extended to full group instead of self is cool, but at 15% proc rate it is very underwhelming. This is could be seen as something more catered to melee PvE groups than RvR groups, in no real scenario running a full/mostly tanker (which I run on Theurg, and also ran on Friar majority of my time) would the 15% proc 75 delve heal win a spot in a RvR group where spike damage is key. I definitely like the thought, perhaps if it was 25% it would raise the appeal to squeeze in the Friar for more resists/offensive proc, giving the group a bit more sustain when fighting the longer fights against slower damage.

However, I don't believe in any real 8-man scenario you can take a Clerics spot, DI/Insta's/PR are just too useful to not run two. Friar does have it's own RA strengths by bringing ST and VR to the table, and like anything in DAoC it's about building synergy within the comps.

I think there are two things that come to mind to REALLY open up the Friars utility/viability.

First-
Group Endo Reduction - This can open up more options to hybrid groups without having the hard requirement of throwing a paladin in the mix. I don't like that it fights for with the 1 flexible slot for a Paladin, but something like this does greatly increase the odds of pulling Friars into groups. Endo is a real struggle here for anything without endo song/chant/conc buff. I hear it so often in my 8-mans it's not even funny about people having to constantly toggle sprint on/off and fighting slam endo usage and 2h/pole styles. With endo reduction this can at least help fill the alb melee never ending endo issues and Friar/Pally both can fill those shoes in that scenario.

Second-
Swap 34 Holy Staff (Snare) with 25 Banish (Chain) and make 3.5 NS cure 41rej- Everyone has complained about spec points and not being able to fit everything they need. With the changes noted that started this thread, this would enable more flexibility to have "more points to work with" without actually adding more spec points. Giving you the ability to peel is one of the few "unique" things Friar can bring to groups. With a change like this amongst the others, it enables flexibility to run as the third hybrid/healer/peeler for alb. This can alter the spec to enable options such as 41rej/45enh/25staff (3.5 NS cure, Yellow Resists and Peels), if you want to sacrifice either Back Snare or faster cure NS then you can get red resists vice/versa (Could even introduce a unique 34 ability different than flipping, this was just my first thoughts from my various tests with specs/8mans and spec point struggles). This feels like a lower impact change to other realms that opens up the Friar class a bit more utility wise. This doesn't impact Friar damage nor add new spells to the game. Just adds slightly more flexibility to lower staff to high enhance/rej that harmonizes with the newer changes. Another possible spec of 41rej/48enh/18staff (3.5 NS Cure, Red resists, only side snare)

Friars make a great back line peeler (as non-slam peels), I don't think they REALLY needed the single line huge heal to match Clerics. I think their healing line is fine based on point investment. I think the two changes noted above + Cure NS viability can really get them in a comfortable place as a peeler without Slam, and enough utility to be appealing to run on alb groups. I really enjoyed playing Friar, but it's really hard to get groups to see the light and the fact that you are more or less taking up a "DPS" spot.

Hopefully this helps kick-start some ideas, I'm curious to see what comes of all the brainstorming. Thanks devs for all your hard work on this project too

Cheers!
-Zom
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:48 AM by keen
Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:47 AM
No spread heal
No insta heal
No PR
No DI
No BoF
No invite
This, you will always need 2clerics. Then Friar can be fit in. It's like running 1Druid 1Warden, or saying 1Healer + 1Sham will be enough as well.

Anyway good to see adjustments and progression, maybe they get a slot as a 3rd healer now.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:53 AM by Cami
Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:10 AM
bearing in mind 46ench is minimum needed for grp play?
This incorrect assumption is the biggest and self-inflicted nerf to all RvR group friars. Try to loosen your chains!
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:59 AM by dcj
Good, my main is a cleric and I like to switch it up some so the friar changes may be that change. GL HF TYVM for your efforts!
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:04 AM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM
No, this should be looked at.
So they get far better heals and cures!
They also get far better damage!

Now a jack of all trades class can fully take on 3 different roles with near full effectiveness.

Balance works as a give and take.
Want better support capability?
Take some dps capability.

Now they are an effective dps and main healer?

Give wardens 2h and the same damage boost!
I bet we would hear some crying over that.

You literally cannot melee and cast at the same time. Thanes actually have greater than caster delves (184/2.4 = 76.66 vs 209/2.8 = 74.6) as a 2.0 spec chain class.

Friars do nowhere near the healing of a Cleric, and they have 1.5 spec points for an OKish damage line.

Wardens can get that damage boost once they lose PBT.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:17 AM by teiloh
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance.

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.

Disagree. Friar are not awesome solo melee. I think this meme needs to die. Friars are good dueling unbuffed tanks. They are a horrible solo class and are among the few that can do absolutely nothing vs. anything that can kite. Almost every class I have played in DaoC can engage a Friar on its term and kill it with almost no hp loss. The only classes they wiped the floor with in duels, Assassins, got buffs that specifically negate the main benefits Friars had vs them on live. AND they all have Vanish. And these are Rejuv changes - in solo/small man, going high Rejuv comes at a huge cost. You sacrifice Staff to go rejuv in that Minstrel smallman, and you'll likely find that the DPS loss is not favorable. That said we need to stop holding game balance hostage to these solo/small man complaints, almost all of these arguments are pure theorycrafting and even if they weren't, would have negligible impact on the game. If we were nerfing based on Small Man, Bards, Shaman and Healers would have been trashed already.

I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. [/color] so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

Here, barguests don't have bot buffs and Minstrel charm has already been nerfed three times (1. abilities 2. charm pulsing 3. damage nerf).

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.

That wasn't the gist of their argument, I'd say.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:20 AM by Sathariel
Zomgasm wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:46 AM
First-
Group Endo Reduction

That's a convenience feature, not a viability one. I just use instant Endo pots and charges and rarely have problems.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:54 AM by Nightwish
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:17 PM
Friars will receive the following changes in the coming days:

- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

The reasoning is that while friars are ok in general, albion groups basically don't have the "warden spot" available. With this change we expect cleric + friar to be comparable to cleric + cleric as the heal team, obviously with trade offs and variable viability depending on the setup. We considered other possibilities but decided against buffing their chances to fill a melee dps spot.

Super underwhelming... How could you think that these changes will make cleric/cleric comparable to cleric/Friar? No insta heals, no spreadheal, etc.

This change means nothing without giving friars increased spec points.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:02 PM by Yokahu
These changes are welcome but, frankly, they are underwhelming; they fell short. Swapping Strength gain for Dex (or maybe Qui) would have been a good complement to these changes. I also believe increasing the skill points gain per level will help Friars find a spot easier in RvR groups.

I’m curiouse, what were the other possibilities the Phoenix Devs decided against?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:25 PM by Cami
It is fascinating how the responses vary from
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
in small crew its also totally broken now
to
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:54 AM
Super underwhelming...

Theory crafting at its best.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:30 PM by hellcon
Will they get a free or forced respec?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:35 PM by nixxo87
Been playing friar on every freeshard, the ns cure/heal is nice, the heal proc for grp is meh, tbh they didn't need anything for small man solo play, and if you give them 1.8 spec points they will have too much utility. As it stands now, you need to decide to go group spec and have 33+ rej and sacrifice red heat resists or go hybrid and keep 34 staff yellow resists and yellow heals.

Not having instas(hafta spend ra for VH)/a decent group heal, is the downside but we were never going to get them anyways. We already hit pretty hard and people crying saying omg they get det, who tf at sub rr7 is going to run det9 on a hybrid healer. You can still heal and cure in root, run purge for stuns, and if you eat a 1min mez, det isnt going to swing the fight by dropping the mez to 30 seconds, if you eat a 30 second mez with no clear, your groups dead anyways.

The one change i wish we would have gotten was a different main raising stat, like dex. Paladins are already useless, so might as well give them endo redux and baseline haste instead.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:44 PM by JaggedBlitz
absolutely nobody rolled a friar to play cleric version 0.8

It's obvious the crew has no intention of maintaining a balance as intended by the design of the base game, and as much as I love DAoC, I'm simply not interested in another dumbed down "everyone gets a participation trophy" mmo.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:49 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:04 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:39 AM
No, this should be looked at.
So they get far better heals and cures!
They also get far better damage!

Now a jack of all trades class can fully take on 3 different roles with near full effectiveness.

Balance works as a give and take.
Want better support capability?
Take some dps capability.

Now they are an effective dps and main healer?

Give wardens 2h and the same damage boost!
I bet we would hear some crying over that.

You literally cannot melee and cast at the same time. Thanes actually have greater than caster delves (184/2.4 = 76.66 vs 209/2.8 = 74.6) as a 2.0 spec chain class.

Friars do nowhere near the healing of a Cleric, and they have 1.5 spec points for an OKish damage line.

Wardens can get that damage boost once they lose PBT.

What did the friar give up for a damage boost?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:58 PM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:49 PM
What did the friar give up for a damage boost?

They don't have the group utility that Wardens do.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:17 PM by Zomgasm
Zomgasm wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:46 AM
Second-
Swap 34 Holy Staff (Snare) with 25 Banish (Chain) and make 3.5 NS cure 41rej- Everyone has complained about spec points and not being able to fit everything they need. With the changes noted that started this thread, this would enable more flexibility to have "more points to work with" without actually adding more spec points. Giving you the ability to peel is one of the few "unique" things Friar can bring to groups. With a change like this amongst the others, it enables flexibility to run as the third hybrid/healer/peeler for alb. This can alter the spec to enable options such as 41rej/45enh/25staff (3.5 NS cure, Yellow Resists and Peels), if you want to sacrifice either Back Snare or faster cure NS then you can get red resists vice/versa (Could even introduce a unique 34 ability different than flipping, this was just my first thoughts from my various tests with specs/8mans and spec point struggles). This feels like a lower impact change to other realms that opens up the Friar class a bit more utility wise. This doesn't impact Friar damage nor add new spells to the game. Just adds slightly more flexibility to lower staff to high enhance/rej that harmonizes with the newer changes. Another possible spec of 41rej/48enh/18staff (3.5 NS Cure, Red resists, only side snare)

Slight edit to this section, added faster NS cure at 41 instead of 40 to force spec choices.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:44 PM by Lev
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:42 PM
What i mean is : i m scared about the general politic of trying to balance everything to make everything viable, and at the end break the whole game.
i absolutely agree.

well this isn't Uthgard. things changed slowly there. the vision was very strict, etc.
it's way more custom here. so there's gonna be changes and some of the seemingly little things maybe going to have a real impact. it's definitely possible to do the less and too slow changes, but the same holds true about too many and too fast changes.

that being said: I like every change so far. I like playing here. so far my fear of custom changes has not been proven right at all.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:41 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:58 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:49 PM
What did the friar give up for a damage boost?

They don't have the group utility that Wardens do.

Bs they don't. They are damn close to the same thing.

Wardens get pbt. Friars get hots and offensive heal procs and 2h.

Armor is pretty much the same because the friar gets an abs buff.

Their heals (before the charges) where exactly the same.

So are wardens now going to get the same buffs as the friar?
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:48 PM by Niget
These changes now start to beg the question.

Will wardens, bards, and shamans get the same greater heals? Ns cure? Melee damage boost?

Will the warden get it's offensive heal proc?

One realm can't get all the love when they are good to begin with!
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:56 PM by Tritri
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:48 PM
These changes now start to beg the question.

Will wardens, bards, and shamans get the same greater heals? Ns cure? Melee damage boost?

Will the warden get it's offensive heal proc?

One realm can't get all the love when they are good to begin with!

Obviously not since bard shaman and warden have no groupability issue whatsoever
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:13 PM by easytoremember
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:17 PM
We considered other possibilities but decided against buffing their chances to fill a melee dps spot.

Good call given friar vs stealth
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:53 PM by Amnesiaa
this is what happen when DEVs listen to cry <insert my class> is terrible nobody invite me, in b4 it ends up like ywain nonsense patch.

and DEVs thinking they can revert it back if it's unbalanced haha, tell people you're buffing their class then take it back, you lose them all.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM by hend
Cami wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:25 PM
It is fascinating how the responses vary from
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
in small crew its also totally broken now
to
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:54 AM
Super underwhelming...

Theory crafting at its best.

Because i tend to see changes and classes at his full potential. I'm thinking about a minst + friar duo decently played : it was already one of the best duo, now the chaange is adding a NS cure and big heals.
Of course if the duo is a bad setup poorly played, the change will have no effect.
Of course if the solo friar has a bad template/speed weapon combination and is 1L1 + he's mongo, it turns in a bad solo class. But all the soloing people i know talking about friars are like : "omg i not even trying to engage a friar, i ll be 3 shooted, damages are insane". And i put myself in this bag, i never engage friars in melee, its a lost fight, even if the guy is semi afk auto style.

Just saying something else about friar in a decent alb group.
Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.
If Dark Dawn play on alb and this change remains, we ll play with one cleric. Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can take moc 5 instead of spending ra points in DI etc.
Of course the solo cleric will have to use his RA's in a wise way, of course we ll probably have to use buff charges, but with the way alb can be played, you give the pressure to your opponents, you don't take it. If you are playing against a mongo setup, you take the pressure, but its always like that if you are not playing a mongo setup yourself.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:42 PM by Ardri
hend wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
Just saying something else about friar in a decent alb group.
Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.
If Dark Dawn play on alb and this change remains, we ll play with one cleric. Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can take moc 5 instead of spending ra points in DI etc.


Keep going, i'm almost there.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:01 PM by Zomgasm
hend wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
Cami wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:25 PM
It is fascinating how the responses vary from
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
in small crew its also totally broken now
to
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:54 AM
Super underwhelming...

Theory crafting at its best.

Because i tend to see changes and classes at his full potential. I'm thinking about a minst + friar duo decently played : it was already one of the best duo, now the chaange is adding a NS cure and big heals.
Of course if the duo is a bad setup poorly played, the change will have no effect.
Of course if the solo friar has a bad template/speed weapon combination and is 1L1 + he's mongo, it turns in a bad solo class. But all the soloing people i know talking about friars are like : "omg i not even trying to engage a friar, i ll be 3 shooted, damages are insane". And i put myself in this bag, i never engage friars in melee, its a lost fight, even if the guy is semi afk auto style.

Just saying something else about friar in a decent alb group.
Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.
If Dark Dawn play on alb and this change remains, we ll play with one cleric. Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can take moc 5 instead of spending ra points in DI etc.
Of course the solo cleric will have to use his RA's in a wise way, of course we ll probably have to use buff charges, but with the way alb can be played, you give the pressure to your opponents, you don't take it. If you are playing against a mongo setup, you take the pressure, but its always like that if you are not playing a mongo setup yourself.

The heal parity with Cleric Greater is unnecessary and shouldn't be implemented, however the rest of the changes seem fine. If you are only running 1 Cleric 1 Friar for 8man you'll be hurting. It's like running a warden without pbt/DA, and wardens can get a 19s side snare + shield instead of a druid. If you are low staff, you aren't going to hit like a beast. You have more self reliance due to Evade 5 and parry, but it's not group wide. Wardens can solo pets on them too, there is a reason more successful groups are running 4 naturalist because everyone has snare peels except the druids. Overwhelmed by heals trying to keep 4 healers busy and peel tanks with pbt, it's one of the more easy setups to get away with.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:04 PM by Lemi
Keep going on, we just need aog on friar and friar will be as strong as a warden.

Just funny how poeple keep qqing about the friar up when warden is just to strong on this server.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:40 PM by Eidorf
Serverinfo 50 right now - Warden 18, Friar 16

Don't kid yourself that Warden is in a better spot, its not, people still don't run them.

If these changes go ahead then ALL melee/healer hybrids need attention.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:17 PM by keen
Eidorf wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:40 PM
Serverinfo 50 right now - Warden 18, Friar 16

Don't kid yourself that Warden is in a better spot, its not, people still don't run them.

If these changes go ahead then ALL melee/healer hybrids need attention.
cause you dont need a warden to zerg dive, but you need the warden for 8v8
also wardens are RA bots, so taking a low warden isnt really worth it either.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:41 PM by Bumbles
hend wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
Cami wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 1:25 PM
It is fascinating how the responses vary from
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
in small crew its also totally broken now
to
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:54 AM
Super underwhelming...

Theory crafting at its best.

Because i tend to see changes and classes at his full potential. I'm thinking about a minst + friar duo decently played : it was already one of the best duo, now the chaange is adding a NS cure and big heals.
Of course if the duo is a bad setup poorly played, the change will have no effect.
Of course if the solo friar has a bad template/speed weapon combination and is 1L1 + he's mongo, it turns in a bad solo class. But all the soloing people i know talking about friars are like : "omg i not even trying to engage a friar, i ll be 3 shooted, damages are insane". And i put myself in this bag, i never engage friars in melee, its a lost fight, even if the guy is semi afk auto style.

Just saying something else about friar in a decent alb group.
Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.
If Dark Dawn play on alb and this change remains, we ll play with one cleric. Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can take moc 5 instead of spending ra points in DI etc.
Of course the solo cleric will have to use his RA's in a wise way, of course we ll probably have to use buff charges, but with the way alb can be played, you give the pressure to your opponents, you don't take it. If you are playing against a mongo setup, you take the pressure, but its always like that if you are not playing a mongo setup yourself.

"If". Do it and prove your point. Otherwise stop playing paper daoc.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:16 AM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:41 PM
Bs they don't. They are damn close to the same thing.

Wardens get pbt. Friars get hots and offensive heal procs and 2h.

Armor is pretty much the same because the friar gets an abs buff.

Their heals (before the charges) where exactly the same.

So are wardens now going to get the same buffs as the friar?

What magical spec are you referring to in which Friars can get a viable staff heal and Warden absorb as well as staff damage that isn't a joke?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 AM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:48 PM
Will wardens, bards, and shamans get the same greater heals? Ns cure? Melee damage boost?

Will the warden get it's offensive heal proc?

Bards have group greater. Friars got single greater.

When will Friars get PBT, Damage Add and Speed?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:22 AM by teiloh
hend wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
Because i tend to see changes and classes at his full potential. I'm thinking about a minst + friar duo decently played : it was already one of the best duo, now the chaange is adding a NS cure and big heals.
Of course if the duo is a bad setup poorly played, the change will have no effect.

A Friar playing a duo to full potential is going to stop for a FULL 10 seconds to Cure NS ... on a Minstrel?

Of course if the solo friar has a bad template/speed weapon combination and is 1L1 + he's mongo, it turns in a bad solo class.

Explain how a Friar, with no range options or speed, kills say ... a BD or a Shaman. They're a terrible solo class. They're good at dueling unbuffed tanks, but solo isn't dueling.

Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.

Minstrel pets were nerfed 3 times already, Sorc pets twice. There's no reason why Mentalist/Enchanter/Druid pets should enjoy full sists and Alb pets can't. Your argument is that a Friar buff means they will have more sists - they can get those now. Any Hib train will have stat debuffs + resist debuffs anyway, why not use those?

Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can

That spec is not going to insta kill Druid pets unless they're the lowest greys. Even then, PBT. That heal proc, even with 7 people swinging at avg 2.0s speed, will add around 31 HPS. That's not even 1/8th the damage of a mid-rank caster.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:08 AM by Cadebrennus
Why? Why was this the most pressing issue for class balance? Seriously, why?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:41 AM by teiloh
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:08 AM
Why? Why was this the most pressing issue for class balance? Seriously, why?

Addressing Friar groupability is actually the most important realm balance issue. Bar none. I would have done things differently, but still.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:18 AM by hend
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:22 AM
hend wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
Because i tend to see changes and classes at his full potential. I'm thinking about a minst + friar duo decently played : it was already one of the best duo, now the chaange is adding a NS cure and big heals.
Of course if the duo is a bad setup poorly played, the change will have no effect.

A Friar playing a duo to full potential is going to stop for a FULL 10 seconds to Cure NS ... on a Minstrel?

Of course if the solo friar has a bad template/speed weapon combination and is 1L1 + he's mongo, it turns in a bad solo class.

Explain how a Friar, with no range options or speed, kills say ... a BD or a Shaman. They're a terrible solo class. They're good at dueling unbuffed tanks, but solo isn't dueling.

Alb hybrid/caster wins fights putting a progressive pressure to strangle opponents with pets. Any change you add to help the pets surviving is changing the meta.

Minstrel pets were nerfed 3 times already, Sorc pets twice. There's no reason why Mentalist/Enchanter/Druid pets should enjoy full sists and Alb pets can't. Your argument is that a Friar buff means they will have more sists - they can get those now. Any Hib train will have stat debuffs + resist debuffs anyway, why not use those?

Can't wait to see halli playing a minstrel with purple barguest + all red resists, aom 5, heal proc, with the help of 2 yellow grannies (with all resists + heal proc) and a defensive friar healing with major (+ critic heal5, mastery of heal 5). Can't wait to see this friar defensive healer giving 27 second peels (41 heal, 48 buff, 18 staff template). Can't wait to see this defensive healer instant kill druid pets and even jammers with ST + insane melee hits. Also don''t forget the defensive healing friar can

That spec is not going to insta kill Druid pets unless they're the lowest greys. Even then, PBT. That heal proc, even with 7 people swinging at avg 2.0s speed, will add around 31 HPS. That's not even 1/8th the damage of a mid-rank caster.

- There is no 10 sec NS cure in the game. Its 6.0 or 3.5 sec.
- No melee class can actually kill a decently played bd in 1v1, iits nothing specific to friar.
- A shaman can obviously kite any melee class, its nothing specific to friar.
- Minstrel pet never been nerfed, it has been fixed. During beta a rank 1 minstrel was able to perma control a high purple. Even thid minstrels were controling purp pets. I played alot during beta and trust me it was totally broken. The actual minstrel pets seems fine. I fought against a purple levian on emain the other day and the minstrel seemed to have no problem controlling it. Obviously people are starting to be rank 7+ so we ll see more and more high pets on the field in the future.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:22 AM by mrvls
The main issue on alb is the number of available classes. Everyone knows that.

Why mid caster duo is such a great combination ? Because there were only two classes to share ALL casters spells in the first place. BD in addition fits in perfectly.
Hib 3 casters, is fine. On the other hand, we never saw anyone specifically looking for an Animist, they were infamous for the shroom plague and that's about it.
Alb, 4 casters already, 2 pair. Total nightmare for group setup. You can say you don't care about optimum setup or you ain't here for 8V8 but you know you'll have issue grouping as a Wizard compared to other casters. Add a 5th, pain.

Same goes for the Friar and Paladin pair, that's too much.

The more classes the wider spell spreads.

Now why would you NOT want to gather all utilities in a group in Albion such as Hibernia or Midgard ? Maybe cause Albion already has a secret weapon, something other realms don't have ? AF buff ? Mez reduction buff ? Proc heal buffs ? Theurgist's pet ? Maybe the number of pet yes.
On live server I was playing Hib on this version and difference between mid and alb fights were just ridiculous.

Now imagine if you merge Friar and Paladin or Sorcerer and Cabalist maybe even Theurgist and Wizard in an intelligent and balanced way.
For example, Friar and Paladin could share the same spell lines, but one will spec staff with huge snare and proc heal, the other would have access to shield: guard/slam.

Another change would be to add easier cure to healers. NS and disease are way too powerful right now, some people are complaining about Cabalist but he brings much more than a body debuff train. Albion can't afford having so much "required" classes to run at the same level as the other realms.

Now even though I don't like the Friar changes, I understand having the smaller base group (2heal + cham, 2druid + bard, or cleric, friar, minst) will increase other class groupability. I guess it's better than nothing, still not balanced tho.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:42 AM by Ceen
hend wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:18 AM
- Minstrel pet never been nerfed, it has been fixed. During beta a rank 1 minstrel was able to perma control a high purple. Even thid minstrels were controling purp pets. I played alot during beta and trust me it was totally broken. The actual minstrel pets seems fine. I fought against a purple levian on emain the other day and the minstrel seemed to have no problem controlling it. Obviously people are starting to be rank 7+ so we ll see more and more high pets on the field in the future.
While the pet looks purple and dangerous in reality it hits like a wet noodle since it's nerfed.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:09 AM by relvinian
Smite clerics need the snare put in their line.

Power costs reduced the same as casters with specialization.

So maybe 20% less or whatever casters get with high smite.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:30 AM by Amnesiaa
Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:42 AM
hend wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:18 AM
- Minstrel pet never been nerfed, it has been fixed. During beta a rank 1 minstrel was able to perma control a high purple. Even thid minstrels were controling purp pets. I played alot during beta and trust me it was totally broken. The actual minstrel pets seems fine. I fought against a purple levian on emain the other day and the minstrel seemed to have no problem controlling it. Obviously people are starting to be rank 7+ so we ll see more and more high pets on the field in the future.
While the pet looks purple and dangerous in reality it hits like a wet noodle since it's nerfed.

i'm sure purple pet damage is more than fine, and anyway it's not about hitting hard it's about how hard the pet is to kill, because in a certain 8v8 level if you don't kill the minstrel pet as a hybrid or caster group you will just lose the fight. so please just stay away from this topic if you have no clue
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM by yasow
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM by noflex
yasow wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.

Please change primary leveled stat from str to dex for friar.. it’s the most basic and obvious issue
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:32 PM by chryso
noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
yasow wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.

Please change primary leveled stat from str to dex for friar.. it’s the most basic and obvious issue

I think this would be wrong. Friar and cleric are both acolyte classes first and should get piety as the primary stat. I could see arguing for dex as the secondary stat though.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by noflex
chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:32 PM
noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
yasow wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.

Please change primary leveled stat from str to dex for friar.. it’s the most basic and obvious issue

I think this would be wrong. Friar and cleric are both acolyte classes first and should get piety as the primary stat. I could see arguing for dex as the secondary stat though.


That would even be better than str
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:51 PM by hellcon
noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
yasow wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.

Please change primary leveled stat from str to dex for friar.. it’s the most basic and obvious issue

I am assuming the Friar damage table shift that happened before server went live was designed to offset the STR rising stat. If it is even possible to change the primary stat (IIRC live team saying decades ago it wasn't possible; I think it is baked into the client like the silly/meaningless weaponskill stat that everyone loves to rely on - even though it is meaningless), I am sure they would need to drop the damage table back down to typical hybrid level
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:31 PM by relvinian
i think the offensive proc being group has a potential for abuse with people buffing and so forth

My thought would be to change it to a chant. Friars already get a chant, put it in juv line and make it a chant.

That way you wont have some douche with his buff bot or "wife" and "kid" or some stealth guild with dedicated buffers to give the 9 sec stun vanish infs cleric and friar resists and cleric and friar off/def heal procs

Will ruin the solo game.

I could be misunderstanding. Does the friar proc heal the group and it only goes on friar?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:51 PM by Yokahu
relvinian wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:31 PM
i think the offensive proc being group has a potential for abuse with people buffing and so forth

My thought would be to change it to a chant. Friars already get a chant, put it in juv line and make it a chant.

That way you wont have some douche with his buff bot or "wife" and "kid" or some stealth guild with dedicated buffers to give the 9 sec stun vanish infs cleric and friar resists and cleric and friar off/def heal procs

Will ruin the solo game.

I could be misunderstanding. Does the friar proc heal the group and it only goes on friar?
A chant is a bad idea IMO; as far as I know, friars have one other chant to regen endu. With that chant and the endu reduction self buff, they can perma sprint — a new chant will mean twisting to get both benefits which is annoying and possibly a nerf since now the friar will need to keep tabs on a new mechanism to get the same benefits than before.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:09 PM by relvinian
fair enough.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:41 PM by Cruella
when the friar leaves the group..the proc and resis are also cancelled Just tried it
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:48 PM
Will wardens, bards, and shamans get the same greater heals? Ns cure? Melee damage boost?

Will the warden get it's offensive heal proc?

Bards have group greater. Friars got single greater.

When will Friars get PBT, Damage Add and Speed?

About the same time wardens get a 2h weapon, self spec buffs, an offensive heal proc, an abs buff, and now greater heals lmao
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:05 AM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:12 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:48 PM
Will wardens, bards, and shamans get the same greater heals? Ns cure? Melee damage boost?

Will the warden get it's offensive heal proc?

Bards have group greater. Friars got single greater.

When will Friars get PBT, Damage Add and Speed?

About the same time wardens get a 2h weapon, self spec buffs, an offensive heal proc, an abs buff, and now greater heals lmao

OK, so you're saying Friars needed offensive heal proc and greater heal to put them on par with Wardens before.

That's why the changes were made.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:02 PM by Tyrlaan
chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:32 PM
noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
yasow wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
This thread is about the upcoming friar changes, not minstrel pets. Stay on topic, everything else will be deleted.

Please change primary leveled stat from str to dex for friar.. it’s the most basic and obvious issue

I think this would be wrong. Friar and cleric are both acolyte classes first and should get piety as the primary stat. I could see arguing for dex as the secondary stat though.

Many classes share a base class and have different primary/secondary/tertiary stats. Bard, Skald, Minstrel as examples for primary stats different to their fellow base classes and many more for different secondary or tertiary stats. These stats start to rise at lvl 5+ too, i.e. when progressing in the real class.

I wouldn't mind pie/dex/con though (analog to Warden's emp/str/con), i.e. str secondary replaced with dex, because it's only a minor change replacing a useless stat with a useful one and the oversight went unfixed despite almost 20 years of complaints - Mythic had the power to change it but kept the nonsense. A melee hybrid should get their weaponskill attribute amongst their rising stats. Likewise I support replacing a Bard's useless emp secondary with str btw.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:46 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:05 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:12 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:17 AM
Bards have group greater. Friars got single greater.

When will Friars get PBT, Damage Add and Speed?

About the same time wardens get a 2h weapon, self spec buffs, an offensive heal proc, an abs buff, and now greater heals lmao

OK, so you're saying Friars needed offensive heal proc and greater heal to put them on par with Wardens before.

That's why the changes were made.

Not what I said at all.
I'm saying these changes are unnecessary and albs just need to learn how to group a friar because they are just as group able as a warden.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:12 PM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:46 PM
Not what I said at all.
I'm saying these changes are unnecessary and albs just need to learn how to group a friar because they are just as group able as a warden.

They're not. For a Buff/Heal spec, Warden PBT and Damage Shield > so-sodamage
Sat 23 Mar 2019 10:38 PM by Bradekes
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
They're not. For a Buff/Heal spec, Warden PBT and Damage Shield > so-sodamage

If damage shield you mean damage add?? Hib make caster groups dmg add is shit for warden doesn't do much dmg
Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:23 AM by Weezull
Enhance line should receive a group-wide offensive proc when they hit with the staff. Maybe it gives a celerity buff to your other melees for a few seconds while you are successfully on your target. If you get peeled, then no offensive utility. Unique way to keep them in a support role but still offensive melee oriented.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:58 AM by MacPrior
I think, it is a good idea, Albion is a most difficult Realm in RvR Group Building. Even playing Midgard I would very welcome such changes.
But I am not sure, it will be enough. Perhaps giving the spec group heal will be a better idea to implement frair in a group set up of Albion.

Other side, Friar and Pala both got a huge love change from the very beginning already, Hibernia has with animists a very big advantage in rvr.

What about some love for Midgard - I would like to see a buff for the most useless class in MidRvR - the Thane. I mean it is nice class, very funny, but no one takes him in a serious group in RvR. Just rise (significant) his weapon Ability to make this wundervoll class interesting for RvR Groups.
And additional grow please the Skald on Damage Table, quite all other supporter got buff there, only such melee Realm, as Midgard got Bersis nerved. It is not correct.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:51 PM by Blitze
@Macprior

A lil buff to thanes may help as all selfbuffers/hybrids are not performing that well atm, but saying that Thanes are actually doing the best. Better than friars/wardens/VWs/champs/reavs/paladin... for example.

And call for a buff to skalds is bananas as they are currently the no. 1 class on the server.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:34 PM by Bumbles
MacPrior wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:58 AM
I think, it is a good idea, Albion is a most difficult Realm in RvR Group Building. Even playing Midgard I would very welcome such changes.
But I am not sure, it will be enough. Perhaps giving the spec group heal will be a better idea to implement frair in a group set up of Albion.

Other side, Friar and Pala both got a huge love change from the very beginning already, Hibernia has with animists a very big advantage in rvr.

What about some love for Midgard - I would like to see a buff for the most useless class in MidRvR - the Thane. I mean it is nice class, very funny, but no one takes him in a serious group in RvR. Just rise (significant) his weapon Ability to make this wundervoll class interesting for RvR Groups.
And additional grow please the Skald on Damage Table, quite all other supporter got buff there, only such melee Realm, as Midgard got Bersis nerved. It is not correct.

you have lost your mind.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:10 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:46 PM
Not what I said at all.
I'm saying these changes are unnecessary and albs just need to learn how to group a friar because they are just as group able as a warden.

They're not. For a Buff/Heal spec, Warden PBT and Damage Shield > so-sodamage

Pbt is pretty much the only this the warden has on the friar.

You can't call the friar "so-so damage"
I have been hit by plenty of friars (even at low rank) swinging that 2h staff at stupid fast speeds and hitting for 350-450 a swing.
That's not so so damage. with rank they can easily take a dps slot.

My whole point it this class needs a direction. You can't buff every aspect of a class and expect balance in the end!
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:40 PM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:10 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:46 PM
Not what I said at all.
I'm saying these changes are unnecessary and albs just need to learn how to group a friar because they are just as group able as a warden.

They're not. For a Buff/Heal spec, Warden PBT and Damage Shield > so-sodamage

Pbt is pretty much the only this the warden has on the friar.

You can't call the friar "so-so damage"
I have been hit by plenty of friars (even at low rank) swinging that 2h staff at stupid fast speeds and hitting for 350-450 a swing.
That's not so so damage. with rank they can easily take a dps slot.

My whole point it this class needs a direction. You can't buff every aspect of a class and expect balance in the end!

A Friar hitting that hard isn't going to be healing for much.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by tweedledumb99
I only play hibs, since launch of Phoenix (Hero and leveling an NS now to try castershade).

So far I havent seen Albs being overpowered at all. At worst I've seen annoying minstrel shit, but they're a strong class, so, whatever.

Honestly this change seems fine, i like the idea that albs will have an easier time building varied groups, and especially anything that will make alb tank or hybrid groups more viable/desirable.

If friar buffs mentioned in OP make alb tank/split groups more likely, then I'm even more in favour of it.

At worst, it doesnt work and the devs tweak it further.

If anything, these devs have shown they care about balance and fun.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:40 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:10 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
They're not. For a Buff/Heal spec, Warden PBT and Damage Shield > so-sodamage

Pbt is pretty much the only this the warden has on the friar.

You can't call the friar "so-so damage"
I have been hit by plenty of friars (even at low rank) swinging that 2h staff at stupid fast speeds and hitting for 350-450 a swing.
That's not so so damage. with rank they can easily take a dps slot.

My whole point it this class needs a direction. You can't buff every aspect of a class and expect balance in the end!

A Friar hitting that hard isn't going to be healing for much.

It wouldn't be that hard to do both...

34 rej 39 staff 38 enh 14 parry

With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 7:14 AM by Gwalew
Give us Heal over time (grp) castable in combat and during movement

We can parry but we don't have parry style before lvl50 in staff spec .....

And finally if u give free buff to all classes, give more stats for friar buff.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 9:42 AM by jg777
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:40 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 7:10 PM
Pbt is pretty much the only this the warden has on the friar.

You can't call the friar "so-so damage"
I have been hit by plenty of friars (even at low rank) swinging that 2h staff at stupid fast speeds and hitting for 350-450 a swing.
That's not so so damage. with rank they can easily take a dps slot.

My whole point it this class needs a direction. You can't buff every aspect of a class and expect balance in the end!

A Friar hitting that hard isn't going to be healing for much.

It wouldn't be that hard to do both...

34 rej 39 staff 38 enh 14 parry

With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.

The Greater heal is a huge mana drain- Friars aren’t going to use than often. Friars can’t spec a little into everything and expect to get into groups, they have to spec to excel at something- good resists, good healing, or good DPS. Friars now have a better way to do that, and hopefully will get into groups more. If they are shown to be over powered they can always be toned down, but let’s see how many Friars are in Albion groups first and how they do first.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:17 AM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.

Bards have greater group heal and Wardens have PBT.

PBT and DA are a bit stronger than the Friar Rejuv procs.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:20 PM by Ceen
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.

Bards have greater group heal and Wardens have PBT.

PBT and DA are a bit stronger than the Friar Rejuv procs.
Warden has some utility but it is also a RA bot, while friar has nothing to offer RA wise.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:16 PM by faliv
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.

Bards have greater group heal and Wardens have PBT.

PBT and DA are a bit stronger than the Friar Rejuv procs.
Warden has some utility but it is also a RA bot, while friar has nothing to offer RA wise.

Static vs TWF. Pretty even outside of a clinical 8v8 fight i would say.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:18 PM by Ceen
faliv wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:17 AM
Bards have greater group heal and Wardens have PBT.

PBT and DA are a bit stronger than the Friar Rejuv procs.
Warden has some utility but it is also a RA bot, while friar has nothing to offer RA wise.

Static vs TWF. Pretty even outside of a clinical 8v8 fight i would say.
Ha forgot about static. With good coordination that's a big plus yes
But you got no aotg of doom
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:38 PM by faliv
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:18 PM
faliv wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
Warden has some utility but it is also a RA bot, while friar has nothing to offer RA wise.

Static vs TWF. Pretty even outside of a clinical 8v8 fight i would say.
Ha forgot about static. With good coordination that's a big plus yes
But you got no aotg of doom

Honestly i do not know how good (or bad) aotg is here atm. But with aotg, twf, det, purge, mcl and stuff we go straight to rr10.

Think friar is pretty fine, you can not replace a cleric, but something like 2minstrel, 2cleric, 1friar, 1arms , 1nec, 1merc/arms/pala/reaver should be playable now in most situations.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:38 PM by Muradin
faliv wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:38 PM
Ceen wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:18 PM
faliv wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Static vs TWF. Pretty even outside of a clinical 8v8 fight i would say.
Ha forgot about static. With good coordination that's a big plus yes
But you got no aotg of doom

Honestly i do not know how good (or bad) aotg is here atm. But with aotg, twf, det, purge, mcl and stuff we go straight to rr10.

Think friar is pretty fine, you can not replace a cleric, but something like 2minstrel, 2cleric, 1friar, 1arms , 1nec, 1merc/arms/pala/reaver should be playable now in most situations.

Why 2 minsts?
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:07 PM by faliv
No sorc

So second demezz and minstrel with pet, sos and melodies is pretty strong. But sure, you can put another tank in, a sorc etc., not the highend 8v8 setup, but for 95% of the playerbase here it should be just fine. Pretty easy to play also, just stick the enemy to death^^
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by Muradin
faliv wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
No sorc

So second demezz and minstrel with pet, sos and melodies is pretty strong. But sure, you can put another tank in, a sorc etc., not the highend 8v8 setup, but for 95% of the playerbase here it should be just fine. Pretty easy to play also, just stick the enemy to death^^

Haha id agree with you, but a sorc can do everything a 2nd minst can do just better, not having a 2nd sos is a thing, but Sorcs do more dmg, better cc, and the pet is just different, not better assuming the minst knows what he is doing.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:18 PM by Ashenspire
Not only do you replace a sorc with a second minstrel, but you throw in a necro on top of it? Yikes
Mon 25 Mar 2019 8:02 PM by bob349
I appreciate the effort, but these changes are pointless.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:19 PM by Niget
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:17 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
With a little rank you wouldn't be hard at all to heal, dps, and peel as well as be a base buffer.
With greater heals they will out heal shammys bards and wardens speced well past them in their healing lines. Dps far better than any and be able to peel just as well as a warden.

How is any of this even close to balanced??

Lose the melee damage bump for support or give it to the other support melee hybrids.

Bards have greater group heal and Wardens have PBT.

PBT and DA are a bit stronger than the Friar Rejuv procs.

Bards can't spec for a decent greater heal if they want to be a bard... 43 nurture 37 music is a stuck minimum for any bard spec.

Ignore the da on warden... They can't use it in a group. If pbt isn't up for one second everyone will get pissed.

So then friars still get the cleric greater heals. And a damage boost.

Give the warden/bard the same damage boost.

It would make them more group able as a hybrid warden instead of a pbt bot.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:52 PM by teiloh
Niget wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:19 PM
Bards can't spec for a decent greater heal if they want to be a bard... 43 nurture 37 music is a stuck minimum for any bard spec.

Ignore the da on warden... They can't use it in a group. If pbt isn't up for one second everyone will get pissed.

So then friars still get the cleric greater heals. And a damage boost.

Give the warden/bard the same damage boost.

It would make them more group able as a hybrid warden instead of a pbt bot.

Yes, Wardens can DA and PBT. Hit DA first and then PBT to double pulse it.

And Friars can't spec for a decent greater heal if the want to be a Friar. 45 enhance, 34 staff is a stuck minimum.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:10 PM by Cami
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
45 enhance... is a stuck minimum.
Maybe in your mind?
Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:56 PM by kedelin
A group friar only need 18 staff for the snare
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:33 PM by Zomgasm
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
Niget wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:19 PM
Bards can't spec for a decent greater heal if they want to be a bard... 43 nurture 37 music is a stuck minimum for any bard spec.

Ignore the da on warden... They can't use it in a group. If pbt isn't up for one second everyone will get pissed.

So then friars still get the cleric greater heals. And a damage boost.

Give the warden/bard the same damage boost.

It would make them more group able as a hybrid warden instead of a pbt bot.

And Friars can't spec for a decent greater heal if the want to be a Friar. 45 enhance, 34 staff is a stuck minimum.

This is exactly why I was proposing earlier in the thread to move the back snare from 34 down to 25. That's the least other-realm impactful way to make the change without "adding more spec points". This allows you to make a various decisions on spec around better resists, better heals, fast cure NS, optional back snare. It's not one forced spec of 43rej, 46enh, 18 staff to find yourself in a group's flex (dps) slot.

Pretty much every Friar ever getting grouped is forced to run this, but without back snare, it's not reliable enough to fill a non-slam "peeler" role. You are just extra heals in a slot meant for DPS more or less.

The two changes to force decisions from current would be:
Move 34 back snare to 25
Move Fast NS cure to 41 for Friar if back snare implemented @ 25

Specs based on the changes noted above:
40rej/46enh/25staff -- Group Heal Proc (75), red heat otherwise yellow resists, back/side snares, 6.0 NS cure
41rej/45enh/25staff -- Group Heal Proc (75), yellow resists, back/side snares, 3.5 NS cure
43rej/46enh/18staff -- Group Heal Proc (75), red heat otherwise yellow resists, side snare only, 3.5 NS cure, last major heal

Most groups would prefer the first two spec options most likely.

These changes would leave solo friar in the same place as current, higher staff for weapon skill if that's what you are looking for, or if a new 34 ability is introduced in place of a moved backsnare to 25.

---

That said, I've ran my friar with the current 43rej, 46enh, 18staff. It's okay in group because you become a little durable, but I don't think it's enough to be appealing for group slots. The greater heals juice a ton of your power, and I think the 43 major is good enough. VR2/VR3 is a great group insta (not including self). 15% heal proc rate isn't really noticable even in the melee heavy group we ran. It was about 80-90 actual heals from melee.

I believe the reliability of having both back/side snare to be the backline peeler solved those problems. I used to run 25rej/48enh/34staff, and having both snare types allowed us to maintain a frontline and I could peel for backline and lightly spot heal. Mostly focused on disease cures/backfield snares on tank trains, and durable enough to live through tank trains on you with ABS/parry/evade self buffs.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 1:02 PM by Ardri
They already get first time TWENTY SEVEN SECOND side snare at lvl 18. The radius is huge...and there are 2 sides. That's insane. Giving them another free back snare is not the solution.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 1:24 PM by Cami
Friar is perfectly fine now. Nothing to see here, please move to the next thread.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:02 PM by kedelin
If you can't peel with side snare time to reroll...
Sat 30 Mar 2019 3:15 PM by jhaerik
Everyone keeps swearing to me that my Savage is a hybrid......

So can I get Static Tempest, full self buffs, mending spec with greater heal and cure NS too please? Cause if Friar is supposed to be a healer, think you could ask them to stop kicking my ass first?

Or maybe can we just combine healer Aug and pac specs... and give them Hammer spec too? I mean they are the only class in the game without a single form of damage.
Also where is my Shaman's greater heal and Cure nearsight? Dude has nothing to do but stand around trying not to get owned... and cast disease.

/sarcasm off

Things are starting to smell LIVE up in here.
Sun 31 Mar 2019 5:54 PM by teiloh
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Mar 2019 3:15 PM
So can I get Static Tempest, full self buffs, mending spec with greater heal and cure NS too please? Cause if Friar is supposed to be a healer, think you could ask them to stop kicking my ass first?

Feel free to trade Savagery for Enhance.
Mon 1 Apr 2019 6:23 AM by Cami
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 31 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
Feel free to trade Savagery for Enhance.

"This might be the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever."
Tue 2 Apr 2019 8:10 AM by Amarath
So i wanted to say that you guys rock. So many private server don't take the time to make things work or improve the state of the game and your motto appears to be the opposite.

While I am not on Alb, i have to say the pala and friar love does make it tempting.

Friar is pretty cool being high damage, okay defensively, and now a good healer (Compare him to all other hybrid healers hes probably just under bard [which is going to be the case as bards get an spec'ed aoe heal, which greatly outclasses baseline]). At the same time friar's party HoT is really good and allows a rare but useful healing method that is more of a hp buffer than hps throughput (rather similar to battery in concept), plus the new greater heal (making them viable for spot healing) and baseline aoe heal ... nice.

While you can still get rather high staff, but 44 maybe too high. I know that 3 chain side stun is the best. It depends, 44 staff allows the friar to peel for others far better and provide nice melee damage... but that was their current state and they aren't that popular as such. People should consider much higher ReJ and or Enh. A pretty good healer that can self peel (and help others), is rather tanky (more from evade 5!! and parry than the AF buff because of the way armor classes work... oh also det 5 on a great healer... come on), does good damage if they cannot heal, and it also offers some different resist buffs. You also provide a way for melee on alb to be much better, with that NEW group proc heal buff (15% chance) on each of your melee classes... thats not small, pala, reaver, merc ( not sure how their dual wield works but basically double the proc rate), mistral, and finally the friar themselves (yes armsman too).
I think it could be far better than people think atm, but its a NEW group setup that is for sure better with melee (not in fashion save in Mid). Additionally, friars can always MoC their group hot, VR, and the group heal procs are buffs that are hard to stop, which is a definite boon in melee (also you are evade and parry masters). Where as a cleric with thurg pets, or melee, amnesia, etcetera can be stopped healing more easily much (sure they have their instas).

Now the downside is comparing them to Bards who have speed, demezz, arguably more group hps (however far more interruptible). Shamans have the good buffs but are far worse healers (probably the worse of the bunch). But can cast some cc. Wardens have PBT and are tanky (but heal worse and do far less damage)... Friars will be in good shape at this time. I don't think they or pala's are the real issue (save that people spam 5 chants on a pala, which seems awful to be... no matter how you manage it).

So why is there a discourse of anti melee and generally anti alb on the forums and in game?
Tue 2 Apr 2019 5:41 PM by SaintRon
Cami wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Apr 2019 6:23 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 31 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
Feel free to trade Savagery for Enhance.

"This might be the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever."

Friar staves with savagery.... Ooooo boy. *Shiver*
Wed 3 Apr 2019 7:15 AM by Cami
SaintRon wrote: ↑
Tue 2 Apr 2019 5:41 PM
Cami wrote: ↑
Mon 1 Apr 2019 6:23 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 31 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
Feel free to trade Savagery for Enhance.

"This might be the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever."

Friar staves with savagery.... Ooooo boy. *Shiver*

This was about Savages without Savagery which would be quite bad. :-)
Hands-down, Savagery is the better Line compared to Enhancement once you are grouped with a Cleric/Shaman.
Wed 3 Apr 2019 1:36 PM by HtGeist
Tried my friar with the cleric heals..not gonna use them friar heal 152 for 14 pow 2.8 sec cast cleric 192heal for 35pow 2.6 sec cast...leaks mana like someone aim shotgun at the barrel and not at the fish inside..the cure ns great i guess another thing i can cure for those passing me collectively soloing in frontier.
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:01 PM by kedelin
Is it a normal for a heal class to out damage a skald by 118 dmg a swing??? Ran into a solo friar and he was hitting me for 300 a swing and I would only hit for 182 when I could actually land a style threw his evade 5 and parry... I am speed 44+16 hammer
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:51 PM by Blitze
Yea, in almost every iteration of DAoC a solo friar (battle/staff spec friar) will out damage a skald easily... unless the skald is fullybuffed or partially buffed and higher RR.

This does not mean a skald can’t beat a friar 1v1, plenty skalds can beat me (RR5 friar) and most of the ones who can’t can easily avoid me .. or mezz or snare or SoS me when losing.
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:21 PM by Cami
kedelin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:01 PM
he was hitting me for 300 a swing and I would only hit for 182
Let's completely ignore weaponspeed, me not charging an AF buff and all other factors. Today, we only whine about the some random numbers in the log, so everyone joins me in my pain.
Mon 8 Apr 2019 1:55 PM by Nilquit
Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 9:51 PM
Yea, in almost every iteration of DAoC a solo friar (battle/staff spec friar) will out damage a skald easily... unless the skald is fullybuffed or partially buffed and higher RR.

This does not mean a skald can’t beat a friar 1v1, plenty skalds can beat me (RR5 friar) and most of the ones who can’t can easily avoid me .. or mezz or snare or SoS me when losing.

Yup. Most non-light tanks that decide to simply go toe-to-toe a battlefriar 1v1 get beat up. However that never happens, Skald kites the crap out of you. Archer/assassin use their abilities. Down goes the friar. Best we have is and evade style that snares so you can snap off a few heals. Usually gets interrupted with DD/arrow etc.

Friar damage is awesome, heals good utility. Rarely does someone go straight up blow for blow. The other real light tanks always spanked me. Zerc Merc, blade Master, reaver, savage. Catch a wild evade string and a bunch of Crits you might win the odd one.

Imo
Mon 8 Apr 2019 2:20 PM by kedelin
Cami wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:21 PM
kedelin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:01 PM
he was hitting me for 300 a swing and I would only hit for 182
Let's completely ignore weaponspeed, me not charging an AF buff and all other factors. Today, we only whine about the some random numbers in the log, so everyone joins me in my pain.

Weapon speed I was swinging 5.5 no hammer... full mp armour full buffs including spec af... and no not random numbers
Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:18 PM by Amp_Phetamine
kedelin wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Apr 2019 2:20 PM
Cami wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:21 PM
kedelin wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:01 PM
he was hitting me for 300 a swing and I would only hit for 182
Let's completely ignore weaponspeed, me not charging an AF buff and all other factors. Today, we only whine about the some random numbers in the log, so everyone joins me in my pain.

Weapon speed I was swinging 5.5 no hammer... full mp armour full buffs including spec af... and no not random numbers

Well, if you lost that fight that's because you attempted to go toe-to-toe with a melee specced Friar...

Let's not forget that you can mezz to reset, snare to reset, kite DD (also can be used to interrupt them if they try and heal up, although you shouldn't be able to perma-kite a Friar as they'd just heal up when your insta's are on cool down).

Plus, let's also not forget how powerful Skalds are here. There are a few Skalds that have gone toe-to-toe with my Mercenary and won (albeit quite close and had to kite for FA).

Stop being upset that you aren't a Keystone Predator - you shouldn't be beating every single class in the game 1v1 but as a Skald there are very few classes that you actively need to avoid in a 1v1 as well.
Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:54 PM by kedelin
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Apr 2019 3:18 PM
kedelin wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Apr 2019 2:20 PM
Cami wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Apr 2019 7:21 PM
Let's completely ignore weaponspeed, me not charging an AF buff and all other factors. Today, we only whine about the some random numbers in the log, so everyone joins me in my pain.

Weapon speed I was swinging 5.5 no hammer... full mp armour full buffs including spec af... and no not random numbers

Well, if you lost that fight that's because you attempted to go toe-to-toe with a melee specced Friar...

Let's not forget that you can mezz to reset, snare to reset, kite DD (also can be used to interrupt them if they try and heal up, although you shouldn't be able to perma-kite a Friar as they'd just heal up when your insta's are on cool down).

Plus, let's also not forget how powerful Skalds are here. There are a few Skalds that have gone toe-to-toe with my Mercenary and won (albeit quite close and had to kite for FA).

Stop being upset that you aren't a Keystone Predator - you shouldn't be beating every single class in the game 1v1 but as a Skald there are very few classes that you actively need to avoid in a 1v1 as well.

I am not upset... I lose alot of 1v1 cause of my group spec ra setup... I was just stating the fact that friars are fine here and don't need anymore... esp anymore spec points... I know the friar was melee spec but he also had to give up heals.. it was more a general reply cause there is 14 pages of friars wanting more spec points or lower the back snare cause even with all the love friars have gotten they don't wanna be able to have everything and not choose to sacrifice one spec.
Thu 11 Apr 2019 4:13 PM by Redzus
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
I personaly totally disagree with this kind of balance patch.

I will start with a general thinking i have about the game and how it was made (on purpose or not) :
Some classes always been strong in specific situations, the game was like that, if you will to make these classes strong in every situation you will break the global balance. To me, especially on a server where its very easy to level, people should at least have 2 characters, one good in group and another one made for fun and to fit in specific setups and situations, like the friar. If they only will to play a friar, they have to accept the fact sometimes they will not get a slot or they have to build their own group to make a specific setup fitting with their class.
What you aim for is impossible or you ll change the game too much and make mistakes as BS did on live.

Also, lets talk about the change itself :

Friar was already awesome as a solo melee, very good in small group and decent in full group with specific setups (especially tankers, but also good in hybrid because bringing the resists). Now its just necesary in every group replacing one cleric, adding red resists and procs for every member and pets. As a solo its still very strong, in small crew its also totally broken now (just imagine a minst + friar duo, it was very strong before, now its just totally broken).
Playing on hib i can tell you every group will also haveto deal with red minst pets (sometimes purple) with red heat resist, a thing you probably didn't think about doing these changes. Gl hf to all hibies.
I want to remember you what happened on live, friar get all the healing defensive tools long time after toa and cls, when everybody had cl resists and every casters had 10% piercing etc. so heat resists on barguest or not, it was possible to kill the pet with 10% piercing bonus and focal mythirian : we don't have these tools on Phoenix.

I also want to talk about the skald, to me its not off topic, because to me you already did what i considere as a mistake. To me its even worst, because the class didn't needed to be balanced to aim being grouped, because speed 6 was a must have, NF RAs with purge 5 was really good to counter the only weaknesss (the root) and NF anger of god was also a very good ra. The skald was already necessary in every group, useful, strong in every style of play and a class played by a huge amount of players.
And then you decided to add determination... The skald is now totally broken in solo/small group, its impossible to CC and it totally broke the balance.
But, in full group,, i don't really see a huge difference. To me, what you aim for, adding deter on skald to make them groupable, it was useless, it didn't change anything, you just broke the side action. Some groups are now also playing with 2 skalds which is negative for some other classes who lost their potential slot.

If you follow this logic to the end of changing every good solo/small group class to make it musthave in every group, you ll have to make it for every class. So whats the next step ? Add chain on stealthers ? Stoicisme and casted disease on VW ?

PS : The argument of "Alb doesn't have a warden class" is not even an argument, we don't have mirror classes and mirror realms and i don't think thats what you aim for. Warden is a hib specificity and i don't see the point of justifying friar changes with wardens.

Warden does not have Cleric heals nor increased damage like Frair ... nor can heal Nearsight ... nor got shield spec nor got hots ....
Fri 19 Apr 2019 5:58 PM by BaldEagle
Looking back on it, this change was not all that great. Friar is still not grp viable.

All that needed to be done was to throw the offensive proc into enhancement and then you could make a case about throwing them on the tank train.

And obviously Reflex Attack doesn't belong on a friar.
Fri 19 Apr 2019 6:12 PM by paul_g
Last night an AFK friar kicked my ass 🤦‍♂️
This is out of hand 🖐
Sat 20 Apr 2019 8:18 AM by mhenfhis
BaldEagle wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Apr 2019 5:58 PM
And obviously Reflex Attack doesn't belong on a friar.

Reflex attack is a original friar RA
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:29 PM by Killaloth
At RR5 I was left at 3% life by a Warder (2L) friar. He did not purge stun and took my whole side chain after being slammed. I used flurry and triple wield too, the only thing I'm not sure about is if I used the str/con debuff.

I was buffed with omnibuff, yellow haste, red strcon, red dexqui.

My armor is full 100% qual.

Take it as you want but I just wanted to leave it here for the records.

Happy to lose 1vs1 VS a friar but this time I was speechless.

Slam, side snare and run is the way to go Vs these super Sayan
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:48 PM by Yokahu
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
At RR5 I was left at 3% life by a Warder (2L) friar. He did not purge stun and took my whole side chain after being slammed. I used flurry and triple wield too, the only thing I'm not sure about is if I used the str/con debuff.

I was buffed with omnibuff, yellow haste, red strcon, red dexqui.

My armor is full 100% qual.

Take it as you want but I just wanted to leave it here for the records.

Happy to lose 1vs1 VS a friar but this time I was speechless.

Slam, side snare and run is the way to go Vs these super Sayan

Maybe it’s the BM class vs its nemesis. I destroy blademasters in my friar, and I don’t run purge either.
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:21 PM by Killaloth
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:48 PM
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
At RR5 I was left at 3% life by a Warder (2L) friar. He did not purge stun and took my whole side chain after being slammed. I used flurry and triple wield too, the only thing I'm not sure about is if I used the str/con debuff.

I was buffed with omnibuff, yellow haste, red strcon, red dexqui.

My armor is full 100% qual.

Take it as you want but I just wanted to leave it here for the records.

Happy to lose 1vs1 VS a friar but this time I was speechless.

Slam, side snare and run is the way to go Vs these super Sayan

Maybe it’s the BM class vs its nemesis. I destroy blademasters in my friar, and I don’t run purge either.

Indeed, I was blaming reflex attack and 1vs1 setups Vs my group Ra's etc. etc. etc... Now that I know that a 2L is a threat to a fullbuffed BM it's just jogging time when I see one
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:17 AM by pollojack
Glad to see I'm not the only one having issues with friars. Im only RR3, not the best RVR but a friar mopped the floor with me after my pa/cd. Friar swung at me six times before stun ended for 260 each hit, evaded three strikes to start the dance with half health.

See a friar? Run.
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:36 AM by Yokahu
pollojack wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:17 AM
Glad to see I'm not the only one having issues with friars. Im only RR3, not the best RVR but a friar mopped the floor with me after my pa/cd. Friar swung at me six times before stun ended for 260 each hit, evaded three strikes to start the dance with half health.

See a friar? Run.

Were u the NS elf that jumped me in DF about half an hour ago? Good Fight!
Sat 27 Apr 2019 7:45 PM by hend
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:22 PM
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
They start doing something in solo once they have access to purge 2 / Reflex Attack, otherwise they're FREE rps for almost everyone considering the current buffpots fiesta.

Like every class. Every solo class is weak when 1L1.

And Purge 2 + Reflex Attack 4 = 4L2 as a MINIMUM. 4L2 is high RR to you ?

Friar are awesome at RR 4L2 ? You dream way too much. Way too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeaZn3gTMjE
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:20 AM by teiloh
hend wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 7:45 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:22 PM
hend wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:13 PM
Like every class. Every solo class is weak when 1L1.

And Purge 2 + Reflex Attack 4 = 4L2 as a MINIMUM. 4L2 is high RR to you ?

Friar are awesome at RR 4L2 ? You dream way too much. Way too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeaZn3gTMjE

Eagle Knight is R5. Vendo Zerk would kill them all 3x faster.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:50 AM by jelzinga_EU
In all seriousness : If you're defending the current state of Friars and how Reflex Attack works on them, you're just delusional and have no idea about game-balance.

It is as much of a problem with friars as it is with Reflex Attack. Since Albion has 2 more classes than Midgard, it stands to reason some classes are less wanted in groups. In an attempt to "fix" that they buffed some of those classes to perform much better performance than before on this patch-level. Paladins got way more spec-points and a WS-table bump, Friars got a WS-bump and a beefed up Rejuv-line. (Earth-)Wizards got way more utility and damage than their counterparts.

The end-result of all that for grouping ? Earth becomes the go-to spec for Wizards but synergy with classical Body-debuff train on Sorc/Caba is obviously still not there. Paladins are still not grouped and Friars... they lack the instants/BoF/DI of Clerics according to the meta.

However, in the small-man / solo department both the Friar and (to a lesser extent) Paladins becomes unstoppable. For Friars, the Reflex Attack RA essentially means they are impossible to beat by pure melee as they will bash their own skull in with Reflex Attack. Counter-play becomes extremely difficult as stunning a friar still procs Reflex Attack. Kiting them means they heal themselves.

All the stuff about "you get added on - no speed" goes for a lot of classes out there, they don't get the OP stuff - so why should a Friar?
Sun 28 Apr 2019 10:55 AM by Sayuri
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:50 AM
In all seriousness : If you're defending the current state of Friars and how Reflex Attack works on them, you're just delusional and have no idea about game-balance.

It is as much of a problem with friars as it is with Reflex Attack. Since Albion has 2 more classes than Midgard, it stands to reason some classes are less wanted in groups. In an attempt to "fix" that they buffed some of those classes to perform much better performance than before on this patch-level. Paladins got way more spec-points and a WS-table bump, Friars got a WS-bump and a beefed up Rejuv-line. (Earth-)Wizards got way more utility and damage than their counterparts.

The end-result of all that for grouping ? Earth becomes the go-to spec for Wizards but synergy with classical Body-debuff train on Sorc/Caba is obviously still not there. Paladins are still not grouped and Friars... they lack the instants/BoF/DI of Clerics according to the meta.

However, in the small-man / solo department both the Friar and (to a lesser extent) Paladins becomes unstoppable. For Friars, the Reflex Attack RA essentially means they are impossible to beat by pure melee as they will bash their own skull in with Reflex Attack. Counter-play becomes extremely difficult as stunning a friar still procs Reflex Attack. Kiting them means they heal themselves.

All the stuff about "you get added on - no speed" goes for a lot of classes out there, they don't get the OP stuff - so why should a Friar?

maybe you need to learn how to play and how to kill a friar i die in 90% of fight vs champion/thane/warrior/skald they can kill me if they are good enough even with purge
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:08 AM by jelzinga_EU
Sayuri wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 10:55 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:50 AM
In all seriousness : If you're defending the current state of Friars and how Reflex Attack works on them, you're just delusional and have no idea about game-balance.

It is as much of a problem with friars as it is with Reflex Attack. Since Albion has 2 more classes than Midgard, it stands to reason some classes are less wanted in groups. In an attempt to "fix" that they buffed some of those classes to perform much better performance than before on this patch-level. Paladins got way more spec-points and a WS-table bump, Friars got a WS-bump and a beefed up Rejuv-line. (Earth-)Wizards got way more utility and damage than their counterparts.

The end-result of all that for grouping ? Earth becomes the go-to spec for Wizards but synergy with classical Body-debuff train on Sorc/Caba is obviously still not there. Paladins are still not grouped and Friars... they lack the instants/BoF/DI of Clerics according to the meta.

However, in the small-man / solo department both the Friar and (to a lesser extent) Paladins becomes unstoppable. For Friars, the Reflex Attack RA essentially means they are impossible to beat by pure melee as they will bash their own skull in with Reflex Attack. Counter-play becomes extremely difficult as stunning a friar still procs Reflex Attack. Kiting them means they heal themselves.

All the stuff about "you get added on - no speed" goes for a lot of classes out there, they don't get the OP stuff - so why should a Friar?

maybe you need to learn how to play and how to kill a friar i die in 90% of fight vs champion/thane/warrior/skald they can kill me if they are good enough even with purge

So because YOU die in an encounter I'm no part off, I'm the one who needs to learn to play ? Well that is some twisted logic if I ever have seen...

Regardless of what your skill-level is at, or mine - do you honestly think how Reflex Attack is currently implemented on Phoenix is OK and well balanced?
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:14 AM by Sayuri
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:08 AM
Sayuri wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 10:55 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:50 AM
In all seriousness : If you're defending the current state of Friars and how Reflex Attack works on them, you're just delusional and have no idea about game-balance.

It is as much of a problem with friars as it is with Reflex Attack. Since Albion has 2 more classes than Midgard, it stands to reason some classes are less wanted in groups. In an attempt to "fix" that they buffed some of those classes to perform much better performance than before on this patch-level. Paladins got way more spec-points and a WS-table bump, Friars got a WS-bump and a beefed up Rejuv-line. (Earth-)Wizards got way more utility and damage than their counterparts.

The end-result of all that for grouping ? Earth becomes the go-to spec for Wizards but synergy with classical Body-debuff train on Sorc/Caba is obviously still not there. Paladins are still not grouped and Friars... they lack the instants/BoF/DI of Clerics according to the meta.

However, in the small-man / solo department both the Friar and (to a lesser extent) Paladins becomes unstoppable. For Friars, the Reflex Attack RA essentially means they are impossible to beat by pure melee as they will bash their own skull in with Reflex Attack. Counter-play becomes extremely difficult as stunning a friar still procs Reflex Attack. Kiting them means they heal themselves.

All the stuff about "you get added on - no speed" goes for a lot of classes out there, they don't get the OP stuff - so why should a Friar?

maybe you need to learn how to play and how to kill a friar i die in 90% of fight vs champion/thane/warrior/skald they can kill me if they are good enough even with purge

So because YOU die in an encounter I'm no part off, I'm the one who needs to learn to play ? Well that is some twisted logic if I ever have seen...

Regardless of what your skill-level is at, or mine - do you honestly think how Reflex Attack is currently implemented on Phoenix is OK and well balanced?
at level 5 its 50% of hit back for 30points of RA so yeah its balanced i can say how many time i die cause it dont proc ? so often i dont count but can i say how many time i got luck ? 1 time and its on my video
Sun 28 Apr 2019 4:44 PM by jelzinga_EU
Sayuri wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:14 AM
at level 5 its 50% of hit back for 30points of RA so yeah its balanced i can say how many time i die cause it dont proc ? so often i dont count but can i say how many time i got luck ? 1 time and its on my video

Seriously, I have no idea how balance works if you defend this. Compare this RA to MoPain briefly:

For 27 points you can get MoPain 9. MoPain9 is 39% additional crit-chance, and crits can be between 10 - 50% damage (so 30% on average). This means MoPain 9 gives you ~15% extra DPS.

Assume 1 melee-attacker with the same attack-speed as you have. Also assume an unstyled attack does 80% of a styled attack. Round-per-round you have a 50% chance to deal 80% additional damage, or in other words for 30 RA-points you roughly get 40% additional DPS.

Now assume 4 melee-attackers (SB's) who have a 20% higher attack-speed than you. They also use Left-Axe so every attack they have 2 weapons swinging. This means 4 (attackers) * 2 (LA-mechanics) * 1.2 (speed-advantage) * 0.5 (proc-rate of RA) * 0.8 (styled vs unstyled) = 380% additional DPS.

Now there is a difference, MoPain works on everyone, Reflex Attack only on people attacking you in melee. However, Reflex Attack also works while stunned and works in a 360 degrees - against multiple attackers and even when they miss you (!)

If 1 RA is almost 3X stronger than another RA and you think "this is balanced" we have very different views on balanced. In certain scenario's (such as in your movie) it is >20X stronger. WTF does that have to do with balance ?
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:29 PM by teiloh
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 4:44 PM
Sayuri wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:14 AM
at level 5 its 50% of hit back for 30points of RA so yeah its balanced i can say how many time i die cause it dont proc ? so often i dont count but can i say how many time i got luck ? 1 time and its on my video

Seriously, I have no idea how balance works if you defend this. Compare this RA to MoPain briefly:

For 27 points you can get MoPain 9. MoPain9 is 39% additional crit-chance, and crits can be between 10 - 50% damage (so 30% on average). This means MoPain 9 gives you ~15% extra DPS.

Assume 1 melee-attacker with the same attack-speed as you have. Also assume an unstyled attack does 80% of a styled attack. Round-per-round you have a 50% chance to deal 80% additional damage, or in other words for 30 RA-points you roughly get 40% additional DPS.

Now assume 4 melee-attackers (SB's) who have a 20% higher attack-speed than you. They also use Left-Axe so every attack they have 2 weapons swinging. This means 4 (attackers) * 2 (LA-mechanics) * 1.2 (speed-advantage) * 0.5 (proc-rate of RA) * 0.8 (styled vs unstyled) = 380% additional DPS.

Now there is a difference, MoPain works on everyone, Reflex Attack only on people attacking you in melee. However, Reflex Attack also works while stunned and works in a 360 degrees - against multiple attackers and even when they miss you (!)

If 1 RA is almost 3X stronger than another RA and you think "this is balanced" we have very different views on balanced. In certain scenario's (such as in your movie) it is >20X stronger. WTF does that have to do with balance ?

Unstyled attacks do nowhere near 80% of damage. Even for low GR styles it's closer to 65% - if it hits. And then you need to count for a missing hit rate bonus.

50% or less would be a better estimate.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 8:28 PM by jelzinga_EU
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:29 PM
Unstyled attacks do nowhere near 80% of damage. Even for low GR styles it's closer to 65% - if it hits. And then you need to count for a missing hit rate bonus.

50% or less would be a better estimate.

Completely false. There isn't a style in game where your styled-damage is thát high compared to your base-damage (especially not for a friar with a 2H). Thing is, if you just make up stuff, you're only discrediting your own argument.

Look at this:


228 Reflex
257 Styled =>> 88% of the damage.

Now sure - you might be able to get it realistically to 70% depending on your staff-spec - and that is already pushing it.

Even then, that just means it is 2.5X stronger than something like MoPain vs 1 attacker who doesn't dualwield and has same weapon-speed as you.
Assuming a LA-user who has a 20% higher swing-speed than you means it is >80% increased DPS with 30 RA-points compared to ~15% from MoPain 9 for 27 RA-points.

To balance this RA out it needs :
==========================
a) Have an internal cooldown equal to your effective swing-speed
b) Not work when you're stunned

Then it would still be stronger than MoPain9 but it would at least be reasonably balanced. As it is currently, it is completely imbalanced against anyone who melees you. Defend it as you like, the numbers do not lie
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:09 PM by teiloh
You just posted a picture of your style adding 69 damage to a swing that hit for 129 total.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:47 PM by Bumbles
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 8:28 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:29 PM
Unstyled attacks do nowhere near 80% of damage. Even for low GR styles it's closer to 65% - if it hits. And then you need to count for a missing hit rate bonus.

50% or less would be a better estimate.

Completely false. There isn't a style in game where your styled-damage is thát high compared to your base-damage (especially not for a friar with a 2H). Thing is, if you just make up stuff, you're only discrediting your own argument.

Look at this:


228 Reflex
257 Styled =>> 88% of the damage.

Now sure - you might be able to get it realistically to 70% depending on your staff-spec - and that is already pushing it.

Even then, that just means it is 2.5X stronger than something like MoPain vs 1 attacker who doesn't dualwield and has same weapon-speed as you.
Assuming a LA-user who has a 20% higher swing-speed than you means it is >80% increased DPS with 30 RA-points compared to ~15% from MoPain 9 for 27 RA-points.

To balance this RA out it needs :
==========================
a) Have an internal cooldown equal to your effective swing-speed
b) Not work when you're stunned

Then it would still be stronger than MoPain9 but it would at least be reasonably balanced. As it is currently, it is completely imbalanced against anyone who melees you. Defend it as you like, the numbers do not lie

Haha those are all unstyled swings..you are delusional.

Oh and RA does not proc on "missed" attacks... you while your MS paint skills are getting close to Nates it's still lacking..
Sun 28 Apr 2019 10:33 PM by Mavella
Bumbles wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:47 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 8:28 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:29 PM
Unstyled attacks do nowhere near 80% of damage. Even for low GR styles it's closer to 65% - if it hits. And then you need to count for a missing hit rate bonus.

50% or less would be a better estimate.

Completely false. There isn't a style in game where your styled-damage is thát high compared to your base-damage (especially not for a friar with a 2H). Thing is, if you just make up stuff, you're only discrediting your own argument.

Look at this:


228 Reflex
257 Styled =>> 88% of the damage.

Now sure - you might be able to get it realistically to 70% depending on your staff-spec - and that is already pushing it.

Even then, that just means it is 2.5X stronger than something like MoPain vs 1 attacker who doesn't dualwield and has same weapon-speed as you.
Assuming a LA-user who has a 20% higher swing-speed than you means it is >80% increased DPS with 30 RA-points compared to ~15% from MoPain 9 for 27 RA-points.

To balance this RA out it needs :
==========================
a) Have an internal cooldown equal to your effective swing-speed
b) Not work when you're stunned

Then it would still be stronger than MoPain9 but it would at least be reasonably balanced. As it is currently, it is completely imbalanced against anyone who melees you. Defend it as you like, the numbers do not lie

Haha those are all unstyled swings..you are delusional.

Oh and RA does not proc on "missed" attacks... you while your MS paint skills are getting close to Nates it's still lacking..

So this friar somehow attacked 3 times in less than 2 seconds without this RA firing twice? Don't comment if you have no idea how the game works. The check to see if Reflex procs is when the attack is initiated regardless of the outcome of the combat roll (miss, evade, parry, block, hit). Damage on this server is also normalized you're not going to see any variations on attacks vs a target unless some variable like their resists change. This picture is 100% accurate as described.

This RA is stupid and those defending it are too. End of story.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:04 AM by jelzinga_EU
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:09 PM
You just posted a picture of your style adding 69 damage to a swing that hit for 129 total.

I should have added Friar 2H somewhere in that sentence - rather than make it an absolute statement, my bad.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:35 AM by teiloh
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:04 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:09 PM
You just posted a picture of your style adding 69 damage to a swing that hit for 129 total.

I should have added Friar 2H somewhere in that sentence - rather than make it an absolute statement, my bad.

In order for that to be true though, he'd have to do no quick and use a very slow staff. Even then, he must have used a weak style.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:47 AM by jelzinga_EU
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:35 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:04 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:09 PM
You just posted a picture of your style adding 69 damage to a swing that hit for 129 total.

I should have added Friar 2H somewhere in that sentence - rather than make it an absolute statement, my bad.

In order for that to be true though, he'd have to do no quick and use a very slow staff. Even then, he must have used a weak style.

I've posted a screenshot with "proof". While these numbers might be the result of a strangely set-up friar with low swing-speed, low staff-spec. Slow staff is not so strange since friars have high self-haste available to them and it is very beneficial to benefiting from Reflex Attack.

To remove any discussion about a very small part of this discussion I would suggest you post a screenshot of friar with its stats, specs and weapon-speed / haste on a typically used style. As for now I stick with the numbers I had - mostly because the screenshot is very clear on what is what.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:50 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bumbles wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 9:47 PM
Haha those are all unstyled swings..you are delusional.

Oh and RA does not proc on "missed" attacks... you while your MS paint skills are getting close to Nates it's still lacking..

Please, if you just yell something, atleast provide a reasoning and/or evidence. There is no melee-variance on Phoenix. His Damage-Modifier is exactly the same on all hits, so provide a reason why his damage is bigger on 1 attack and it is not a style. If you do that, also provide a reason how 1 connecting melee-hit from me would result in 3 unstyled attacks in that time interval.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:51 AM by Druth
Last week had 2 friars on top 100 rps.
Maybe they are not as OP broken as people suggest?

Seems to me, that friars make the solo scene, which is heavily stealth/melee driven, less attractive for those classes, and opens up for casters that would demolish a friar.


It always sucks to feel helpless against an opponent, but unless friars starts to become THE solo class in the game, I don't really see all these posts being nothing more than people wanting no direct counters to their way of playing.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:14 AM by Blitze
Rock(friar) beats scissors(stealth) and scissors beat paper(casters).... paper beats rock.

Do BDs beat all,
&What about Skalds/Minis?
Mon 29 Apr 2019 9:01 AM by SlowMo
This discussion gets even more pointless, when you realize that SB/NS/Infi have an instant "don´t loose" button.
Sure it´s not an "I win button" but pretty close.

IF there is a problem, its because of the custom change, to raise the damage tables of certain classes and not because of 1 RA
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:27 AM by jelzinga_EU
Since there are ~30 classes I would be very surprised to not find an example of "only" 2 of a specific class in the top 100. Some are even lower (e.g. Scout, Ranger, Hunter, Spiritmaster) and some classes do not even have a representation in the top 100 (e.g. Theurgist, Runemaster, Thane, Valewalker).

Honestly, I do not feel that "last week rps" should be used as an argument to see if a class is OP. It says something about how popular the class is, not how balanced. People using that as a metric to "defend" if a certain class or ability is balanced would essentially be OK with Thanes getting their damage doubled or Valewalkers doing triple damage because of a 30 RA-point.Or SM-pet intercept-rate boosted to 100% since there is only 1 SM in the top 100 last week rps.

Personally I do not look at the Herald when I notice something which is imbalanced in my eyes. Obviously I am biased, like everyone else and my shadowblade got killed due to Reflex Attack once too. Then you look into it a bit more and notice a trend, confirmed by a video of a (mediocre RR) friar killing 4+ shadowblades due to it and various movies of Natebruner who stomps people in the ground while being stunned. Just because it only affects a small amount of people doesn't mean it is less OP or more balanced.

The fact Friar had a WS-bump makes the problem slightly bigger, but the real problem is the fact the Reflex Attack RA scales way too good and is way too strong from the get-go. Fix that issue, rather than balancing friars around such a broken ability (which will never work)
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:38 AM by Sayuri
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:27 AM
Since there are ~30 classes I would be very surprised to not find an example of "only" 2 of a specific class in the top 100. Some are even lower (e.g. Scout, Ranger, Hunter, Spiritmaster) and some classes do not even have a representation in the top 100 (e.g. Theurgist, Runemaster, Thane, Valewalker).

Honestly, I do not feel that "last week rps" should be used as an argument to see if a class is OP. It says something about how popular the class is, not how balanced. People using that as a metric to "defend" if a certain class or ability is balanced would essentially be OK with Thanes getting their damage doubled or Valewalkers doing triple damage because of a 30 RA-point.Or SM-pet intercept-rate boosted to 100% since there is only 1 SM in the top 100 last week rps.

Personally I do not look at the Herald when I notice something which is imbalanced in my eyes. Obviously I am biased, like everyone else and my shadowblade got killed due to Reflex Attack once too. Then you look into it a bit more and notice a trend, confirmed by a video of a (mediocre RR) friar killing 4+ shadowblades due to it and various movies of Natebruner who stomps people in the ground while being stunned. Just because it only affects a small amount of people doesn't mean it is less OP or more balanced.

The fact Friar had a WS-bump makes the problem slightly bigger, but the real problem is the fact the Reflex Attack RA scales way too good and is way too strong from the get-go. Fix that issue, rather than balancing friars around such a broken ability (which will never work)

the sb you speak about in my video was garbage and dont know how to play, dont take this video too seriously cause i fight good ns/sb that kill me in 1v1 without PA just because they know how to play
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:53 AM by Seal
aside the fact most people talk about Reflex attack in a friar changes thread (that actually is problematic not just on friars, but on zerks too, due to the bear form actually affecting those proc hits to be sure crits and bm triple wield damage bonus) people should try to suggest a solution not just a "nerf it because is op for solo kills, for the poor stealthers that run with a 2nd chance button RA".

my 2 cents on reflex RA just to stay offtopic? : i play friar, im all up if they want to remove Reflex attack and change it with some other valuable RA in the possible selection list like Friar gets to pick Aotg (friars will be a beloved spot to have in any group), while light tanks (zerk/merc/bm) get instead wrath of champion (which is most of the time crap but they have no problem to get group). again from a friar prospective, im all up for the trade.

but keep whining because as a stealther you die vs solo friars (mercs dont really spec reflex attack even if they have it), zerks (maybe someone else aside natezerkerguy has it since it work well with vendo form) or bm which : lo and behold are all visible non speeder class that you can avoid to attack when they roam solo...... give me a break please....
Mon 29 Apr 2019 11:08 AM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:27 AM
Since there are ~30 classes I would be very surprised to not find an example of "only" 2 of a specific class in the top 100. Some are even lower (e.g. Scout, Ranger, Hunter, Spiritmaster) and some classes do not even have a representation in the top 100 (e.g. Theurgist, Runemaster, Thane, Valewalker).

Honestly, I do not feel that "last week rps" should be used as an argument to see if a class is OP. It says something about how popular the class is, not how balanced. People using that as a metric to "defend" if a certain class or ability is balanced would essentially be OK with Thanes getting their damage doubled or Valewalkers doing triple damage because of a 30 RA-point.Or SM-pet intercept-rate boosted to 100% since there is only 1 SM in the top 100 last week rps.

Personally I do not look at the Herald when I notice something which is imbalanced in my eyes. Obviously I am biased, like everyone else and my shadowblade got killed due to Reflex Attack once too. Then you look into it a bit more and notice a trend, confirmed by a video of a (mediocre RR) friar killing 4+ shadowblades due to it and various movies of Natebruner who stomps people in the ground while being stunned. Just because it only affects a small amount of people doesn't mean it is less OP or more balanced.

The fact Friar had a WS-bump makes the problem slightly bigger, but the real problem is the fact the Reflex Attack RA scales way too good and is way too strong from the get-go. Fix that issue, rather than balancing friars around such a broken ability (which will never work)

Problem is that what you end up with, when not looking at how active a class is played, is often just people hating on whatever can beat them.

Example... Game has 2 classes, Class X and Y.
X is played by 90%, Y by 10%.
X complains about Y having an ability that will defeat X 90% of fights.
So now 90% of the "Games" population wants to "fix" Y.

Does it sound biased?

I would say, that if Y is as strong as X says, more people would play class Y, in fact the population should look more like 10% X and 90% Y, if not 100% Y.

So when a class like SB's (just singling out one class, but it's because I mainly see SB's complain here), that is around 50% more played than friar, I strongly suspect that the SB's wants to nerf one of their strongest counters.
I could be wrong, but it smells fishy.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:29 PM by ggherardi
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:51 AM
Last week had 2 friars on top 100 rps.
Maybe they are not as OP broken as people suggest?

Seems to me, that friars make the solo scene, which is heavily stealth/melee driven, less attractive for those classes, and opens up for casters that would demolish a friar.


It always sucks to feel helpless against an opponent, but unless friars starts to become THE solo class in the game, I don't really see all these posts being nothing more than people wanting no direct counters to their way of playing.


And consider that last week we had a lot of vacations in Italy. And the two friars you see in the top 100 are two italians. At least for me it's the only reason I'm in that top 100. Also please notice that the Friar is the second class whose first position player is of a lower RR than the others classes (7L4), the first being SpiritMaster (7L2).

That being said, in my opinion Friar is not so bad after the changes, and I love playing it. But I noticed it still has a hard time finding a precise collocation inside a "good" full alb group, since 2 clerics seem mandatory because of the instant healings.
It is otherwise very strong in small groups, since it's a jack of all trades.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 11:08 AM
Problem is that what you end up with, when not looking at how active a class is played, is often just people hating on whatever can beat them.

Example... Game has 2 classes, Class X and Y.
X is played by 90%, Y by 10%.
X complains about Y having an ability that will defeat X 90% of fights.
So now 90% of the "Games" population wants to "fix" Y.

Does it sound biased?

I would say, that if Y is as strong as X says, more people would play class Y, in fact the population should look more like 10% X and 90% Y, if not 100% Y.

So when a class like SB's (just singling out one class, but it's because I mainly see SB's complain here), that is around 50% more played than friar, I strongly suspect that the SB's wants to nerf one of their strongest counters.
I could be wrong, but it smells fishy.

I see your point, but the problem with such reasoning is that it goes both ways. If an ability is "only OP" against a handful of classes - you might not nerf it because nobody else mentions / says / notices anything. That does not mean the ability isn't OP - it simply is the silent majority.

Personally, when I see how some people in this topic defend this ability I get the same feeling: They know how incredibly strong it is and do not want to see it nerfed, so spread false information, blame it on the skill of the 4 players attacking them, bring in class-performance outside the scope of the specific complaint. "Good assassin can kill me without PA" - it is impossible to be good against Reflex Attack as dualwielder - as it is pure luck-based if you evade them or not. Has nothing to do with skill.

The reason why you see SB's complain is mostly because Left-Axe obviously is affected by reflex-attack the most (offhand guaranteed swing) and they are a class who generally do not group, so any sudden health-loss is noticed and paid attention to. If I would play a hero in a 8-men the damage from Reflex Attack is healed quickly and if I would notice it I would probably shrug it off - as it does not impact 8-men (or zergs) at all.

Obviously the majority of players and classes do not solo (much) and are not affected by this RA. If you are affected you notice how imbalanced this RA is - otherwise you won't pay attention to it at all.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:45 PM by SlowMo
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM
"...
- it is impossible to be good against Reflex Attack as dualwielder - as it is pure luck-based if you evade them or not. Has nothing to do with skill.

The reason why you see SB's complain is mostly because Left-Axe obviously is affected by reflex-attack the most (offhand guaranteed swing) and they are a class who generally do not group...."

Don´t want to defend or offend you.

More of a theoretical question: Can it be op as stated when its luck based? Considering that it might aswell end the other way then?

And to state that the class (SB I assume ? Or any stealth) is generally not grouping is simply wrong.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 3:31 PM by jelzinga_EU
SlowMo wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:45 PM
Don´t want to defend or offend you.

More of a theoretical question: Can it be op as stated when its luck based? Considering that it might aswell end the other way then?

And to state that the class (SB I assume ? Or any stealth) is generally not grouping is simply wrong.

You're right - it is luck (or unluck) based, that is why I based my calculations on the stated numbers (the RA at level 5 states 50%). Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not but over-time it should be 50%.

Maybe SB do group - but generally SB do not group a healer-class where such damage would be simply outhealed.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:10 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Reflex Attack is working as intended. It's a worthless RA outside of solo/small-man with limited/no CC. The last thing any Friar/Light Tank wants to do is chance a root/snare break from RA because they're specced into it.

This realm ability is literally so situational it's ridiculous.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:27 PM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM
I see your point, but the problem with such reasoning is that it goes both ways. If an ability is "only OP" against a handful of classes - you might not nerf it because nobody else mentions / says / notices anything. That does not mean the ability isn't OP - it simply is the silent majority.


Thanks for humoring me
Keep in minds, the ability we talk about costs RA points, so first of all for the friar to buy it, there had to be enough targets to warrant buying it.
It's a dead ability in groups (root/snare breaking?), and a dead ability vs. casters and not worth it vs. 2-handers.
For them to buy it, there has to be targets!

If the friar ability truely is OP, it will drive away dual-wielders from the solo scene, and that will in turn make buying the ability worthless for friars.

So for me the Herald stats tells me that while friar ability might be crazy strong vs. dual-wielders, there are enough non-friar targets for them to not stop playing their class.

And IF friars go bonkers, SB's can at least go 2-hander. But I seriously doubt friars will become more popular than SB's, because despite Reflex Attack, SB's are a better solo class still.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM
Personally, when I see how some people in this topic defend this ability I get the same feeling: They know how incredibly strong it is and do not want to see it nerfed, so spread false information, blame it on the skill of the 4 players attacking them, bring in class-performance outside the scope of the specific complaint. "Good assassin can kill me without PA" - it is impossible to be good against Reflex Attack as dualwielder - as it is pure luck-based if you evade them or not. Has nothing to do with skill.

This is stuff you write when you've run out of arguments. Make it about people being bad/liars, instead of facing that while they might be be 100% correct, you are not either.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:50 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:27 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM
I see your point, but the problem with such reasoning is that it goes both ways. If an ability is "only OP" against a handful of classes - you might not nerf it because nobody else mentions / says / notices anything. That does not mean the ability isn't OP - it simply is the silent majority.


Thanks for humoring me
Keep in minds, the ability we talk about costs RA points, so first of all for the friar to buy it, there had to be enough targets to warrant buying it.
It's a dead ability in groups (root/snare breaking?), and a dead ability vs. casters and not worth it vs. 2-handers.
For them to buy it, there has to be targets!

If the friar ability truely is OP, it will drive away dual-wielders from the solo scene, and that will in turn make buying the ability worthless for friars.

So for me the Herald stats tells me that while friar ability might be crazy strong vs. dual-wielders, there are enough non-friar targets for them to not stop playing their class.

And IF friars go bonkers, SB's can at least go 2-hander. But I seriously doubt friars will become more popular than SB's, because despite Reflex Attack, SB's are a better solo class still.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:26 PM
Personally, when I see how some people in this topic defend this ability I get the same feeling: They know how incredibly strong it is and do not want to see it nerfed, so spread false information, blame it on the skill of the 4 players attacking them, bring in class-performance outside the scope of the specific complaint. "Good assassin can kill me without PA" - it is impossible to be good against Reflex Attack as dualwielder - as it is pure luck-based if you evade them or not. Has nothing to do with skill.

This is stuff you write when you've run out of arguments. Make it about people being bad/liars, instead of facing that while they might be be 100% correct, you are not either.

Completely agree and I'll re-iterate what has already been stated. This is an incredibly situational realm ability that has the potential to turn the tide of battle into a victory. Given the plethora of variables in which Reflex Attack is worthless/detrimental, there is hardly compelling reason to have it changed.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 4:50 PM by Druth
Last 48 hours, 3 SB's in Top 50, 0 friars.

I wonder when people will open their eyes and notice the land of "Milk and Honey" that is being a friar with Reflex attacks.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:24 PM by BisbyHoughton
Yeah there isn't a single friar who has gotten above RR7. In fact, there are only 12 who have even hit RR6. The amount of salt radiating off some of the babies whining about this shit is monumentally disproportionate to the reality of the server.
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:48 PM by Druth
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:24 PM
Yeah there isn't a single friar who has gotten above RR7. In fact, there are only 12 who have even hit RR6. The amount of salt radiating off some of the babies whining about this shit is monumentally disproportionate to the reality of the server.

Well, the change is new so current RR's doesn't tell much.
I don't play friar or dual wield and even play Midgard, so my focus has been on trying to add more to this discussion than just subjective opinions.

And unless people can point to a change in Meta (meaning more friars doing RvR, or fewer SB's for example), to me it smells like wanting to nerf a counter disregarding if it's warranted.
Wed 1 May 2019 8:04 AM by Freedomcall
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 5:24 PM
Yeah there isn't a single friar who has gotten above RR7. In fact, there are only 12 who have even hit RR6. The amount of salt radiating off some of the babies whining about this shit is monumentally disproportionate to the reality of the server.

I see your point.

Numbers of assassins above RR7:
SB 27
Infil 26
NS 22

All assassins are almost even, rather SB is slightly stronger for sure.
There is even one SB that is almost 11L0, when none of others ever reached 10L0 yet.
The amount of salt radiating off some of the SBs whining about stealth war is monumentally disproportionate to the reality of the server for sure.
Wed 1 May 2019 4:14 PM by jelzinga_EU
The moment you bring in the Herald as "balancing"-tool you have to realize that essentially you're using the wrong tool to measure something. It is like saying "Temperature can be measured by the amount of clothes someone is wearing". It might sound right - and work reasonably well for some part of the world, but it is not very trustworthy and you will find a lot of scenario's where it doesn't work so well.

For arguments sake lets just imagine a hypothetical scenario:

Hypothetically if you gave the thane-class a button "Insta blap down female paladins and firbolg wardens" then that would hardly show up in the Herald, but would you think it is balanced? Would it change the meta? I doubt you would call it balanced if you where playing a female paladin or a firbolg warden. But it wouldn't change the meta nor would it show up in the Herald. So it is pretty obvious that in some (hypothetical) cases an imbalanced situation would not show up on the Herald. So honestly, that argument you can just throw away as "proof" or even use it for supporting that ability XX or class YY is balanced (or imbalanced).

Now imagine female paladins or firbolg wardens where considered quite strong - great solo-classes and winning a lot of fights in such a scenario. And the thanes with mentioned insta-blap button would be weak. Would you consider those buttons balanced? Or would you think "hah, justice finally - those female paladins and firbolg wardens always killing me but now can run up that brick wall called thane and somehow that feels better."

Back to the "real DAOC"-world: Depending on what your goal is with the friar-class - the solution is never to add some "insta blap down"-button. Just as Natebruner his videos show how stupid Reflex Attack is - so is the friar with Reflex Attack. When you see a Zerk (or Friar) just standing still on an assassin-infested road and basically beg to get perfed you know something is wrong. Nate his videos show exactly that and some people here (including me) point out the problem. Reflex Attack in its current state on Phoenix (low level pot-buffs, no TOA, etc) is a mistake. I'm not saying nerf Friars (or Zerks) - I want to change how Reflex Attack is working. Right now some classes have 0 counters to Reflex Attack bar "just don't attack them at all" and that is a fundamental problem in a game in my eyes. You might not agree with me - but throwing in Herald-statistics to proof something is fine is just not really accurate.

As for saying "it is so situational and once again it is those SB's crying" : Just remember one day you might be that female paladin or firbolg warden.
Wed 1 May 2019 4:43 PM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 4:14 PM
The moment you bring in the Herald as "balancing"-tool you have to realize that essentially you're using the wrong tool to measure something. It is like saying "Temperature can be measured by the amount of clothes someone is wearing". It might sound right - and work reasonably well for some part of the world, but it is not very trustworthy and you will find a lot of scenario's where it doesn't work so well.

For arguments sake lets just imagine a hypothetical scenario:

Hypothetically if you gave the thane-class a button "Insta blap down female paladins and firbolg wardens" then that would hardly show up in the Herald, but would you think it is balanced? Would it change the meta? I doubt you would call it balanced if you where playing a female paladin or a firbolg warden. But it wouldn't change the meta nor would it show up in the Herald. So it is pretty obvious that in some (hypothetical) cases an imbalanced situation would not show up on the Herald. So honestly, that argument you can just throw away as "proof" or even use it for supporting that ability XX or class YY is balanced (or imbalanced).

Now imagine female paladins or firbolg wardens where considered quite strong - great solo-classes and winning a lot of fights in such a scenario. And the thanes with mentioned insta-blap button would be weak. Would you consider those buttons balanced? Or would you think "hah, justice finally - those female paladins and firbolg wardens always killing me but now can run up that brick wall called thane and somehow that feels better."

Back to the "real DAOC"-world: Depending on what your goal is with the friar-class - the solution is never to add some "insta blap down"-button. Just as Natebruner his videos show how stupid Reflex Attack is - so is the friar with Reflex Attack. When you see a Zerk (or Friar) just standing still on an assassin-infested road and basically beg to get perfed you know something is wrong. Nate his videos show exactly that and some people here (including me) point out the problem. Reflex Attack in its current state on Phoenix (low level pot-buffs, no TOA, etc) is a mistake. I'm not saying nerf Friars (or Zerks) - I want to change how Reflex Attack is working. Right now some classes have 0 counters to Reflex Attack bar "just don't attack them at all" and that is a fundamental problem in a game in my eyes. You might not agree with me - but throwing in Herald-statistics to proof something is fine is just not really accurate.

As for saying "it is so situational and once again it is those SB's crying" : Just remember one day you might be that female paladin or firbolg warden.

Not sure the analogy is correct...
But if you want to use it, what would you trust the most; people wearing warm clothes saying it's cold, or people saying it's cold while wearing shorts and sweating?
I'd trust behavior more than words, because words are so often empty.

4 SB's in top 50 vs. 1 friar might not be evidence, but it shows that despite how "strong" friars are not enough chose to play them, and not enough SB's chose to stop playing.

The thane analogy is really bad, because the situation here is that SB's CHOSE to attack friars, there is no fight and no Reflex Attack unless the SB's attack.
Having a "Always Win" vs. another class is really not that great when you don't get to decide when to fight said class. And SB's can even disease+snare or vanish, neither zerker or friar has anytime snares.
Wed 1 May 2019 5:03 PM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 4:43 PM
Not sure the analogy is correct...
But if you want to use it, what would you trust the most; people wearing warm clothes saying it's cold, or people saying it's cold while wearing shorts and sweating?
I'd trust behavior more than words, because words are so often empty.

4 SB's in top 50 vs. 1 friar might not be evidence, but it shows that despite how "strong" friars are not enough chose to play them, and not enough SB's chose to stop playing.

You kinda missed the point - if I wanted to know the temperature I would grab a thermometer rather than look at people what clothes they wearing. If I want to know if a certain ability is OP I do not go to the Herald and try to deduce it from there, because the Herald is a tool for seeing how much RPS someone made in a certain real life time-span and not anything else.

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 4:43 PM
The thane analogy is really bad, because the situation here is that SB's CHOSE to attack friars, there is no fight and no Reflex Attack unless the SB's attack.
Having a "Always Win" vs. another class is really not that great when you don't get to decide when to fight said class. And SB's can even disease+snare or vanish, neither zerker or friar has anytime snares.

Well, the "don't attack friars"-mantra I already adapted to - that is exactly what this complaint is about. Listing all abilities I can do to avoid attacking a friar is more a statement how silly and imbalanced the situation is, so why defend it in the first place. It is strange, because if you learned that there is a problem in such a match-up, the obvious solution to me would be acknowledging this situation needs to change and adding some sort of restrictions or counters to it.
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:03 PM
You kinda missed the point - if I wanted to know the temperature I would grab a thermometer rather than look at people what clothes they wearing. If I want to know if a certain ability is OP I do not go to the Herald and try to deduce it from there, because the Herald is a tool for seeing how much RPS someone made in a certain real life time-span and not anything else.

Thermometer tells you the temperature, looking at Herald tells you which classes is played the most (or gains the most rps, technically people could earn 100k in 10 mins, or 100k in 100 hours).
Both are completely objective truths, no one can dispute their numbers and what they represent.

Saying Reflex Attack is OP, or broken, is subjective.
Are you speaking from a balance perspective? Then no, it's fine, because you can avoid attacking friars, and it's an ability that is only worth it's cost vs. dual wield and solo.
Are you speaking from logic? No, it's a silly ability, but so is Vanish, SoS, amnesia dropping speed etc etc...

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:03 PM
Well, the "don't attack friars"-mantra I already adapted to - that is exactly what this complaint is about. Listing all abilities I can do to avoid attacking a friar is more a statement how silly and imbalanced the situation is, so why defend it in the first place. It is strange, because if you learned that there is a problem in such a match-up, the obvious solution to me would be acknowledging this situation needs to change and adding some sort of restrictions or counters to it.

Is it silly and imbalanced that my RM can't hunt assassins solo?
Is it silly and imbalanced that my shaman would annihilate a friar solo?

There are many X vs Y fights that are determined from the start, it's part of the game.
What matters is if your class has plenty of good targets, and SB's do not lack in that department.
Thu 2 May 2019 4:04 PM by Turano
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM
Saying Reflex Attack is OP, or broken, is subjective.
Getting hit 4 times 240 damage in 7 seconds by a stunned (!!!!) friar is pretty objectively OP
Thu 2 May 2019 5:54 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Turano wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 4:04 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM
Saying Reflex Attack is OP, or broken, is subjective.
Getting hit 4 times 240 damage in 7 seconds by a stunned (!!!!) friar is pretty objectively OP

You got wtf pwned by RNGesus

Thu 2 May 2019 10:16 PM by Drominchen
Absolute life like behaviour here from reflex attack. Do a PA and CD, see that your health is at <70% already while the friar has still higher health, do a garotte, run and restealth. At least you can kill his hastener buff...

Fights vs friars were always uphill battles cause of crush vulnerability of nightshades and you lost more than 50% fights on live but this is just ridiculous.
Fri 3 May 2019 1:37 AM by Hejjin
Drominchen wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 10:16 PM
Absolute life like behaviour here from reflex attack. Do a PA and CD, see that your health is at <70% already while the friar has still higher health, do a garotte, run and restealth. At least you can kill his hastener buff...

Fights vs friars were always uphill battles cause of crush vulnerability of nightshades and you lost more than 50% fights on live but this is just ridiculous.

life like behaviour?? Why are you bringing real-life in to the equation? Do you honestly believe people were able to unsheathe a 2h weapon, attack someone whilst invisible, and then sheathe the weapon and attack with a pair of new weapons all in a couple of seconds, and then over the course of the next few seconds swap weapons multiple times with stored weapons with each swap taking a fraction of a second? Even excluding the invisibility part, wtf is life-like about that scenario? The answer is nothing.

Edit : Just noticed you are a NS rather than a SB, so ignore the reference to a 2h weapon.
Fri 3 May 2019 4:45 AM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 5:54 PM
You got wtf pwned by RNGesus

"Sure". If we assume 4 combat-rounds of a Left-Axe user (meaning both main- and offhand swing) there are, in total 8 chances with p=0.5. So we need 4 (or more) successes in 8 trials with p=0.5

We can then do a calculation how many of those 8 weapon-attacks will give a Reflex Attack, on average. I will not bore you with the mathematics, simply go to https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=4+successes+in+8+trials+p%3D0.5 to try it for yourselves.

The odds of getting 4 or more Reflexed Attacks in 4 LeftAxe combat-rounds is about 63%. So the probability of this happening isn't some fluke, calling it "wtf pwned by RNGesus" is wildly inaccurate seeing how this would happen roughly 2 out of 3 times.
Fri 3 May 2019 5:16 AM by Seal
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 4:45 AM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 5:54 PM
You got wtf pwned by RNGesus

"Sure". If we assume 4 combat-rounds of a Left-Axe user (meaning both main- and offhand swing) there are, in total 8 chances with p=0.5. So we need 4 (or more) successes in 8 trials with p=0.5

We can then do a calculation how many of those 8 weapon-attacks will give a Reflex Attack, on average. I will not bore you with the mathematics, simply go to https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=4+successes+in+8+trials+p%3D0.5 to try it for yourselves.

The odds of getting 4 or more Reflexed Attacks in 4 LeftAxe combat-rounds is about 63%. So the probability of this happening isn't some fluke, calling it "wtf pwned by RNGesus" is wildly inaccurate seeing how this would happen roughly 2 out of 3 times.

well fine.... i gonna share an RNGesus moment then......





ns 5L+ opening for 327 + 41 + 55 + 6 = 429

answer for : 263 + 45 + 263 + 354 = 925
Fri 3 May 2019 5:40 AM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM
Thermometer tells you the temperature, looking at Herald tells you which classes is played the most (or gains the most rps, technically people could earn 100k in 10 mins, or 100k in 100 hours).
Both are completely objective truths, no one can dispute their numbers and what they represent.

Correct, so stop using the wrong tool for the job. If you say the Herald "tells you which classes is played the most (or gains the most rps, technically people could earn 100k in 10 mins, or 100k in 100 hours)." why do you insist on using it as a tool to defend abilities or classes.

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM
Saying Reflex Attack is OP, or broken, is subjective.
Are you speaking from a balance perspective? Then no, it's fine, because you can avoid attacking friars, and it's an ability that is only worth it's cost vs. dual wield and solo.
Are you speaking from logic? No, it's a silly ability, but so is Vanish, SoS, amnesia dropping speed etc etc...

Is it silly and imbalanced that my RM can't hunt assassins solo?
Is it silly and imbalanced that my shaman would annihilate a friar solo?

There are many X vs Y fights that are determined from the start, it's part of the game.
What matters is if your class has plenty of good targets, and SB's do not lack in that department.

You're just constantly moving the goal-posts and now you came to a point in your arguments that nothing is ever OP. First it was "you don't need to fight friars" and that is now moved on to "if your class has plenty of good targets". Whether or not a Shadowblade or any other class has plenty of good targets has literally nothing to do with Reflex Attack.

It makes any further discussion useless, as you constantly try to shift the discussion from the OP-ability to the people attacking the class with the ability.
Fri 3 May 2019 5:42 AM by jelzinga_EU
Seal wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 5:16 AM
well fine.... i gonna share an RNGesus moment then......



ns 5L+ opening for 327 + 41 + 55 + 6 = 429

answer for : 263 + 45 + 263 + 354 = 925

Happens 1 in every 4 fights (0,5^2 = 0.25)
Fri 3 May 2019 6:50 AM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 5:40 AM
You're just constantly moving the goal-posts and now you came to a point in your arguments that nothing is ever OP. First it was "you don't need to fight friars" and that is now moved on to "if your class has plenty of good targets". Whether or not a Shadowblade or any other class has plenty of good targets has literally nothing to do with Reflex Attack.

It makes any further discussion useless, as you constantly try to shift the discussion from the OP-ability to the people attacking the class with the ability.

My whole point is that the only "evidence" people have to the ability being OP, is that their class can't defeat friars.
They can't back it up by any statistics showing friars are dominating anything.

When:
- Left axe was nerfed, Midgard both dominated RvR and their groups ran 3-4 zerkers. No casters, no warriors. The numbers showed a clear dominance, and people also experienced a clear dominance. I personally experienced it when leveling up a SB, that was soloing reds in crap gear.
- Warlocks were nerfed, because they were dominating in RvR, both groups and solo, and made Midgard crazy strong. On Guinevere after 1 month top 5 Warlocks made 1+ mio. rps/weekly. And this was not due to new class being popular, because Valkyres did not even have enough doing RvR to fill top 25 spots...


This is why you don't listen to what people write, because they will defend against anything that threatens their precious class, and attack anything that threatens it.
So you use realm and class stats! That is the only way to obtain objective information.
Mythic used a combination of Team Leads, class stats, and poor judgement. This lead to many wise choices, but sadly also to bad.
What they rarely did was listen to people complaining with no class stats to back up their claims.

I play Midgard, but don't play a dual wield class, so my stake is zero here, apart from protecting a class that is near unplayable against, among others, a class that is very popular and performs very well.
Fri 3 May 2019 6:57 AM by Druth
Turano wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 4:04 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 5:19 PM
Saying Reflex Attack is OP, or broken, is subjective.
Getting hit 4 times 240 damage in 7 seconds by a stunned (!!!!) friar is pretty objectively OP

No, it is not. It depends on circumstances.

People have no clue what objective means.
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:57 AM
No, it is not. It depends on circumstances.

People have no clue what objective means.

Which circumstances? In what circumstances would it be balanced ? I would love to hear those circumstances.

As for the objective thing: Something is objective if it is independent of people's perception or preferences, no interpretation is needed. I've put up a few objective facts, both about the relative strength of the RA compared to another passive RA and the odds of a Reflex Attack occurring in a given sample size. You can argue about if those numbers are balanced, but that will always be subjective, as "balance" isn't really something easily measurable but also about trade-offs and utility. However, the math behind the 2 things I listed is sound, so not much discussion about that.

Your counterarguments however are all about moving the goal-posts. First it was "no need to attack friars" (true, but the entire concept about the game is attacking enemies) then it was "if your class has plenty of good targets" (how is that not subjective?). If there was a class who had an one-shot PBAoE-ability with a 100% reflect-component with your reasoning it would still be balanced as "you don't need to attack them" and "you have enough viable targets". Clearly it is impossible to balance a game around such terms.

The other problem in your reasoning is that you somehow think this is about shadowblades, where in fact it is about Reflex Attack. The rest of the arguments in this topic can be mostly just piled on "anecdotal evidence" and "this one time at band camp". All fun and possibly true, but not really representing the average numbers and chances.

As for your example/essay about the 2 big nerfs (Midgard Left Axe and Warlocks). Loads of people complained about LA and Warlocks. They posted screenshots (just as here), made movies (just as here). There where a lot players (who most likely played SB/Zerk/Warlock/Midgard) to defend them (just as here). But somehow you think it was the LWRPS what called the nerf, even tho the LWRPS for Zerks wasn't higher than the LWRPS for Healers, Shamans, Skalds and what not. LWRPS is also not normalized for classes and playtime and is generally not a good tool to measure "balance".

It seems unlikely that was the drip, more likely they compared typical dmg of a Zerk to a Merc/BM or a Warlock to another caster (and account for the UI-primer), and not using a statistic which is only partially correlating with balance. However, since neither of us where on the Mythic-team, it is not easy to see what caused the nerf. However, i think we both agree those nerfs where warranted and way long overdue when they came.
Sat 4 May 2019 6:18 AM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
Which circumstances? In what circumstances would it be balanced ? I would love to hear those circumstances.

Well, there is no circumstance where it objectively would be balanced, because "balance" is subjective...
But from my pow, if an ability doesn't create a FOTM syndrome of the class, then it's balanced. Or as balanced as it's possible in a game with 30 unique classes, and a 3 realm balance issue to also take into account.
It is anyway, completely biased to take the example of X v Y (even if Y is a group of classes), and say it's not balanced. This game has a much much bigger picture.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
As for the objective thing: Something is objective if it is independent of people's perception or preferences, no interpretation is needed. I've put up a few objective facts, both about the relative strength of the RA compared to another passive RA and the odds of a Reflex Attack occurring in a given sample size. You can argue about if those numbers are balanced, but that will always be subjective, as "balance" isn't really something easily measurable but also about trade-offs and utility. However, the math behind the 2 things I listed is sound, so not much discussion about that.

You can't compare two RA's that doesn't do the exact same thing, when you have an invested stake (a class that benefits/suffers), and expect your finding to be objective.
I can be objective in this discussion, because I don't have a stake. What I lack is experience in the mechanics, but I never claimed to know/understand the situation. I only care about how people come to the conclusion, which is biased.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
Your counterarguments however are all about moving the goal-posts. First it was "no need to attack friars" (true, but the entire concept about the game is attacking enemies) then it was "if your class has plenty of good targets" (how is that not subjective?). If there was a class who had an one-shot PBAoE-ability with a 100% reflect-component with your reasoning it would still be balanced as "you don't need to attack them" and "you have enough viable targets". Clearly it is impossible to balance a game around such terms.

Moving goal posts would be you showing me that friars now surpass SB's in weekly/rps, and me to say "well, they also need to be higher RR".
Giving different examples of why it's not OP is not moving the goal post, but trying not to sound like a broken record (which some apparently don't mind doing).

Your "one-shot" example is pretty silly...
1) Friars needs dual wield attackers to shine.
2) Friars is not one-shot.
3) Friars has no speed, and no anytime snare, so has no way of keeping a target from escaping.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
The other problem in your reasoning is that you somehow think this is about shadowblades, where in fact it is about Reflex Attack. The rest of the arguments in this topic can be mostly just piled on "anecdotal evidence" and "this one time at band camp". All fun and possibly true, but not really representing the average numbers and chances.

This is of course not only about SB's, but they do represent a large part of the solo crowd that is not Albion, that is also dual-wielding.
Skalds don't suffer from friars, for example.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
As for your example/essay about the 2 big nerfs (Midgard Left Axe and Warlocks). Loads of people complained about LA and Warlocks. They posted screenshots (just as here), made movies (just as here). There where a lot players (who most likely played SB/Zerk/Warlock/Midgard) to defend them (just as here). But somehow you think it was the LWRPS what called the nerf, even tho the LWRPS for Zerks wasn't higher than the LWRPS for Healers, Shamans, Skalds and what not. LWRPS is also not normalized for classes and playtime and is generally not a good tool to measure "balance".

I did not say that... first of all, class stats is more than just LWRPS, and like I wrote Warlocks were not just because they were a new class, because Valkyres were hardly making any rps. Threads were also made to draw attention to warlocks insta killing people/group. And as someone from Midgard I also supported a nerf, but I would never have supported it if the stats had not shown a really screwed LWRPS stat.

Right now a sorc is no. 1 on heralds, that doesn't mean I want to nerf that class. That would be silly.
But if people started saying sorcs were OP (with reasons), and they were over represented in LWRPS several weeks, then I would side with people who wanted it nerfed.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 6:31 PM
It seems unlikely that was the drip, more likely they compared typical dmg of a Zerk to a Merc/BM or a Warlock to another caster (and account for the UI-primer), and not using a statistic which is only partially correlating with balance. However, since neither of us where on the Mythic-team, it is not easy to see what caused the nerf. However, i think we both agree those nerfs where warranted and way long overdue when they came.

Being able to unload 3 balls and then do pbaoe uninterrupted, might have had an impact.
But I bet the stats were what caused them to act


Thanks for the exercise in quoting...
Sat 4 May 2019 7:43 AM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 4 May 2019 6:18 AM
Well, there is no circumstance where it objectively would be balanced, because "balance" is subjective...
But from my pow, if an ability doesn't create a FOTM syndrome of the class, then it's balanced. Or as balanced as it's possible in a game with 30 unique classes, and a 3 realm balance issue to also take into account.
It is anyway, completely biased to take the example of X v Y (even if Y is a group of classes), and say it's not balanced. This game has a much much bigger picture.

You can't compare two RA's that doesn't do the exact same thing, when you have an invested stake (a class that benefits/suffers), and expect your finding to be objective.
I can be objective in this discussion, because I don't have a stake. What I lack is experience in the mechanics, but I never claimed to know/understand the situation. I only care about how people come to the conclusion, which is biased.

Well, I don't agree with not being able to compare them. Take for example Wild Power, Augmented Acuity and Mastery of Magery. 3 different RA's, they do not do the "exact same thing" yet most casters who are into min/max'ing will either calculate the relative gains each RA adds or benefit from previously work done by someone else to spec into a mix of those to maximize their damage-increase from RA's.

When doing such a calculation, you get an objective result. If I did those calculations for a wizard it wouldn't matter if I did them while I was maining a warrior or a skald. In the case of aforementioned RA's the results do largely not depend on the target, which is different here. However, you can do those calculations based on common scenario's (targets) and give the results. Those results are as objective as they can be.

Saying you are objective, because you don't have a stake isn't a real good argument, first of all I need to believe you don't have a hidden agenda, second is that everyone who plays this game has a (small) stake in it. If you play a Hib/Mid caster, you benefit if a friar takes Reflex Attack, as it is 100% wasted points. If you play any solo melee and attack friars, you got a stake. If you play in a FG - you got a stake - although a very minute one.

I put some numbers in a spreadsheet and according to my calculations, MoPain9 adds roughly 11.4% DPS-increase compared to MoPain0 (essentially from 10% --> 49% crit-chance, crit-dmg is 130% of a normal attack on average).

When I put Reflex Attack in my spreadsheet and assume an unstyled hit does 65% damage of a regular hit (that is a low % - my screenshots are typically way higher but for the sake of argument I took this number). If I assume an attack-speed of the enemy equal to that of the friar, no dualwield I get for Reflex Attack V an increase in 32.5% (roughly 3X as strong as MoPain9). If I assume that the attacker has an attack-speed 1.2X that of the friar and is dualwielding I get 78% (almost 7X as big as MoPain9). Those are objective numbers, happy to share my sheet so you can play around with them and find errors in them (and correct them).

The subjective part is if you think those numbers are balanced. Initially you might think it is balanced because MoPain9 helps on all enemies you hit and Reflex Attack does not, therefore it should be a bigger gain in damage. On the other hand, since it works while the friar is stunned it also works in situations where MoPain would not work. Add to that it scales linear with the number of attackers (MoPain doesn't) and works on evades/parries/misses too one might argue it is set (way) too strong against melee-attackers. YMMV but personally I think a 32.5% to 78% DPS-increase against melee-attackers is way too high and it needs to be toned down to acceptable levels - as those numbers are larger as what lifebane-swapping did on assassins and scales with number of attackers.

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 4 May 2019 6:18 AM
Moving goal posts would be you showing me that friars now surpass SB's in weekly/rps, and me to say "well, they also need to be higher RR".
Giving different examples of why it's not OP is not moving the goal post, but trying not to sound like a broken record (which some apparently don't mind doing).

This is of course not only about SB's, but they do represent a large part of the solo crowd that is not Albion, that is also dual-wielding.
Skalds don't suffer from friars, for example.

It is moving goal-posts when you bring in more and more arguments why it shouldn't be nerfed in my eyes. "Don't need to attack them", "Enough other targets", "Not surpassing SB's on Herald". You might do that to not sound like a broken record, but adding additional constraints is textbook moving goalposts in my eyes.

The fact you think Skalds are not affected shows you do not have a proper understanding on the mechanic. Skalds are affected - the RA is still ~3X stronger than MoPain9 against skalds. If that is enough to turn the tide regularly I don't know, my skald is only RR4 and I rarely RvR on it.
Sat 4 May 2019 8:44 AM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 4 May 2019 7:43 AM
Well, I don't agree with not being able to compare them. Take for example Wild Power, Augmented Acuity and Mastery of Magery. 3 different RA's, they do not do the "exact same thing" yet most casters who are into min/max'ing will either calculate the relative gains each RA adds or benefit from previously work done by someone else to spec into a mix of those to maximize their damage-increase from RA's.

When doing such a calculation, you get an objective result. If I did those calculations for a wizard it wouldn't matter if I did them while I was maining a warrior or a skald. In the case of aforementioned RA's the results do largely not depend on the target, which is different here. However, you can do those calculations based on common scenario's (targets) and give the results. Those results are as objective as they can be.

Saying you are objective, because you don't have a stake isn't a real good argument, first of all I need to believe you don't have a hidden agenda, second is that everyone who plays this game has a (small) stake in it. If you play a Hib/Mid caster, you benefit if a friar takes Reflex Attack, as it is 100% wasted points. If you play any solo melee and attack friars, you got a stake. If you play in a FG - you got a stake - although a very minute one.

I put some numbers in a spreadsheet and according to my calculations, MoPain9 adds roughly 11.4% DPS-increase compared to MoPain0 (essentially from 10% --> 49% crit-chance, crit-dmg is 130% of a normal attack on average).

When I put Reflex Attack in my spreadsheet and assume an unstyled hit does 65% damage of a regular hit (that is a low % - my screenshots are typically way higher but for the sake of argument I took this number). If I assume an attack-speed of the enemy equal to that of the friar, no dualwield I get for Reflex Attack V an increase in 32.5% (roughly 3X as strong as MoPain9). If I assume that the attacker has an attack-speed 1.2X that of the friar and is dualwielding I get 78% (almost 7X as big as MoPain9). Those are objective numbers, happy to share my sheet so you can play around with them and find errors in them (and correct them).

The subjective part is if you think those numbers are balanced. Initially you might think it is balanced because MoPain9 helps on all enemies you hit and Reflex Attack does not, therefore it should be a bigger gain in damage. On the other hand, since it works while the friar is stunned it also works in situations where MoPain would not work. Add to that it scales linear with the number of attackers (MoPain doesn't) and works on evades/parries/misses too one might argue it is set (way) too strong against melee-attackers. YMMV but personally I think a 32.5% to 78% DPS-increase against melee-attackers is way too high and it needs to be toned down to acceptable levels - as those numbers are larger as what lifebane-swapping did on assassins and scales with number of attackers.

It is moving goal-posts when you bring in more and more arguments why it shouldn't be nerfed in my eyes. "Don't need to attack them", "Enough other targets", "Not surpassing SB's on Herald". You might do that to not sound like a broken record, but adding additional constraints is textbook moving goalposts in my eyes.

The fact you think Skalds are not affected shows you do not have a proper understanding on the mechanic. Skalds are affected - the RA is still ~3X stronger than MoPain9 against skalds. If that is enough to turn the tide regularly I don't know, my skald is only RR4 and I rarely RvR on it.

Wild Power and MoP are great examples of how people look at DaoC as some sort of equation.
WP and AugAcu/MoM spreatsheets works great if what you want is to do max damage in a fight, but it doesn't work well when you want to burst damage and kill targets before a healer saves them. So the spreadsheet only tells you how much damage you will do over time, and not so much about what is best.
It's one of the reasons why savages are so strong, that quad hit chance, which might not come often, but when it lands your target is often beyond saving.
Other reasons as well, but the quad hit has always been the selling point.

To compare Reflex with MoP is really odd to me, because they act differently. One works of opponent attacking you in melee, the other that you attack them.
WP and MoP can be compared, because they center around the chance of doing burst damage. But it doesn't mean that they are balanced, just because values are equal. Is melee more dominant than magic, or vice versa?

I agree, no one is really objective, true point.
But a skald, for example, would be better of fighting a RR4l2 friar that put all points in Reflex, than one who got purge and such.

I still don't see how I've moved the goal posts... moving goal post means changing the criteria to my "advantage".
My point stands, that SB's are more popular than friars, that has not changed. That is my goal post, prove this wrong and then IF I change the criteria I will have moved the goal post.
Saying that they have plenty of targets, and that they can avoid friars has never been a criteria just my opinion.
Again, if I suddenly said that friars also need to be of average higher RR than SB's, then I had moved the goal post. Because my goal post has been LWRPS from the very start in this thread, I never changed that.
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