PvE Changes

Started 11 Jun 2021
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:13 PM by CowwoC
#163738
Great idea regarding support of people who struggle to find a group to xp their way up. This could be a huge improvement for them and i like the idea that it moves away from static spots which really can be dull in a group and a bit movement to different spots gets the mind on a stroll as long the ways are not too long and feel natural to achieve.

On the other side it will affect - like it or not - the farm possibilities for casuals heavily and clearly favors dungeon raids as income source. If you have one or two hours to play but no raid class then you might be stuck, because you farm toon is not working anymore as income source. If you want to temp other toons you might not be able to do so if you play something else other than a caster, because you would need to farm for it forever, since the prices for melees are insane compared to caster temps. See this suggestion thread: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/28418-suggestion-even-out-the-template-costs-between-caster-and-melees

If you need money for feathers, stones or everything else - well - you better have some coin saved. Actually it does not counter the high prices, since the people who will benefit from it the most are those people who have xxx dungeon runs already and they will somewhat have the monopoly to it.

I support the approach to shut down afk farming, but imho this should not be build on the back of legit solo farming. If this is a huge concern maybe farming should be cut out entirely and a new way to buy equipment with rvr participation should be introduced or solo dungeons like the darkness rising stuff, where you could farm mats in there no matter which class you were. Even tho i actually don't like the idea to put daoc into instances, but cutting off solo farm spots is as bad it can get if prices stay the same, really.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:17 PM by Astaa
#163739
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

This is a massive boost to levelling for new players, or people levelling alts. Great stuff.

That being said, levelling is only about 30% of getting RvR ready. We really need a boost for ROGs, especially ROGS for non-casters. It is impossible to equip anything but a caster from ROGS found from farming generic mobs.

I have a capped exp animist and never found a ROG that is useful for anything but salvage (pre drop change)

I wouldn't ever want to see free 50s or free templates but you need to be reasonable. How would a melee toon or a stealther ever hope to get e decent template without a huge amount of farming. Casters, capped temp from whatever they find in the bin, which encourages the imbalance between casters and other toons.

Edit, and with personal loot being a thing, there is no reason to not boost class specific ROGs.

Edit, edit, I'm pretty established on Hib, all crafts capped, animist for farming, several 50s, several templated. Even then if I was to equip my champ or my NS (that are both currently naked) it is a daunting task, I wouldn't ever want to do it as someone new to the server.

I am working on a reaver on Alb, just dinged and the exp part was the easy part, 1.5 days /played, equipping it is another matter. Casters also have a lot more wiggle room where they don't need a capped template to be useful. My reaver in her ding 50 gear would be utterly useless in RvR, a freshly dinged caster in whatever they dinged in would be pretty much fine.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM by gruenesschaf
#163740
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM
Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die

Add to that any server of any game that is not actively advertised and hence has a rather limited potential for new players. The setting is entirely irrelevant. If tomorrow a new ywain or daoc 1.0 server would launch it would follow the exact same lifecycle as described below.

Pretty much any freeshard of any game ever that no longer advertises and where the freeshard doesn't advertise either has the same lifecycle:
(That is obviously assuming being either relatively bug free at launch or at least has no show stoppers and relatively quickly fixing the bugs and further assuming no weird drama / scandal)

Week 0 - 2: Launch + hype = huge number of players, some caught up in the hype realize they don't like the game but that's still offset by "stragglers" who somehow missed the launch hype
Starting in Week 3 - 6: Honey moon phase is over. The majority of the leavers just realize the game / setting isn't for them, a few are already bored, influx of new players still about covers the loss.
Week 7-20: Player loss exceeds influx of new players. The majority of the leavers are now starting to be those that are getting bored. This will be rather slow at first but has the chance to accelerate once a critical point is reached.
Week 20+: If the server is still alive it should have a rather healthy and stable population that very slowly bleeds those that get bored until a critical point is reached where the number of players can't sustain the gameplay anymore at which point the leaving accelerates, it can take months or even years until that point is reached but eventually it will be.

Changes or events can be made with usually the goal of stopping / slowing down the bleeding due to players becoming bored. Those things however carry the risk of alienating players. It's rather difficult to get players back once they have been lost but if they are somehow reached by certain event information and/or change information it can happen but is usually not something to be counted on.

We were "lucky" with the first lockdown as we were potentially only a couple months away from that critical point in early 2020.


The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons. The risk however is that even the launch hype population isn't enough to sustain the gameplay.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM by CowwoC
#163741
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM
The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons.

Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM by gruenesschaf
#163742
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM by CowwoC
#163743
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:43 PM by Tamvolan
#163744
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM
Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die

Add to that any server of any game that is not actively advertised and hence has a rather limited potential for new players. The setting is entirely irrelevant. If tomorrow a new ywain or daoc 1.0 server would launch it would follow the exact same lifecycle as described below.

Pretty much any freeshard of any game ever that no longer advertises and where the freeshard doesn't advertise either has the same lifecycle:
(That is obviously assuming being either relatively bug free at launch or at least has no show stoppers and relatively quickly fixing the bugs and further assuming no weird drama / scandal)

Week 0 - 2: Launch + hype = huge number of players, some caught up in the hype realize they don't like the game but that's still offset by "stragglers" who somehow missed the launch hype
Starting in Week 3 - 6: Honey moon phase is over. The majority of the leavers just realize the game / setting isn't for them, a few are already bored, influx of new players still about covers the loss.
Week 7-20: Player loss exceeds influx of new players. The majority of the leavers are now starting to be those that are getting bored. This will be rather slow at first but has the chance to accelerate once a critical point is reached.
Week 20+: If the server is still alive it should have a rather healthy and stable population that very slowly bleeds those that get bored until a critical point is reached where the number of players can't sustain the gameplay anymore at which point the leaving accelerates, it can take months or even years until that point is reached but eventually it will be.

Changes or events can be made with usually the goal of stopping / slowing down the bleeding due to players becoming bored. Those things however carry the risk of alienating players. It's rather difficult to get players back once they have been lost but if they are somehow reached by certain event information and/or change information it can happen but is usually not something to be counted on.

We were "lucky" with the first lockdown as we were potentially only a couple months away from that critical point in early 2020.


The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons. The risk however is that even the launch hype population isn't enough to sustain the gameplay.

Agreed, there's always a new bright/shiny. And gamers in general are a fickle bunch. I think that last part is what you're running into here, to a degree. Making changes that are going to make the end-game prep more difficult, in order to make the starting phase easier, is a sour pill to swallow. In the end, I don't have any good answers. You're right, players will leave, smaller numbers will come in to check it out, or to reminisce about the old days, etc. I just feel like these changes are going to push more mid/endgamers out the door than pull newcomers in the door.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM by Tamvolan
#163745
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:52 PM by gruenesschaf
#163746
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"

While technically correct, that particular sentence loses quite a bit of meaning when translated, try googling my text and turning on the image search.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM by Lasrael_Hellblade
#163747
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

Fair and I understand what you're trying to accomplish. I feel there's a bigger player base that solo farms for income (be it hand-in farming, salvaging, taking PL donations etc.).

You've implemented a leveling event (which requires contributions that take away from our income already) that is widely successful and enjoyable. Others have suggested why not make this event in the TOA zones (or an instance, like the task dungeons on live) and leave the old world the way it is?

As I see it, you are forcing people to play a game how YOU want us to. I get it. Your game, your rules. The way I see it is, if people want to waste several hours a day farming and PL'ing to make money so they can in turn build their templates, help guildmates, etc..so be it. They are doing what makes them happy.

I know there's more info to come. And I'm on the fence. I like the idea but I also don't like my livelihood to make money in the game is getting gutted.

I'd like to know:

1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?

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