PvE Changes

Started 11 Jun 2021
by gruenesschaf
in Planned Changes
After the style changes go live with the new baseline and while evaluating those we'll shift our focus to PvE for a while. Adding hybrid stuff and line uniqueness shortly after the new style baseline goes live is still the plan and will not be affected by this focus shift, the remaining / future style changes are mostly depending on internal discussions and player feedback whereas these pve changes are pretty much stand alone.

Anyways, on to the planned pve changes. The intent is to allow people of all levels to group together without a penalty and to move away from static spot camping being the most efficient way to farm / level.


TL;DR:
PvE Zone only. Scaling allowing you to group with anyone of you realm regardless of level. Mob levels will become irrelevant as specific mobs will just be a specific challenge color forever. Mob spawner will become part of new public events, no respawn until an event has been completed. These public events have participation based rewards like the current rvr tasks.


The mechanic that will allow people of all levels to group together is level scaling. While technically rather complex and not entirely built out yet, the basic concept is that your damage and heal values – both taken and dealt – will be scaled according to your level, spec and armor stats.

This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones.

Mob levels pretty much cease to exist and only the mob colors will be set by us / be relevant. A mob will be set to blue and then stay blue forever, regardless of your level. The consequence of that is that there must be somewhat distinct areas with mobs for each color to support solo players as well as groups with any number of group members, e. g. a full group would go to the red / purple area/spot whereas solos would remain in the blue/yellow area.

With scaling active, all areas / mobs are now forever relevant. The gives us the opportunity to get rid of the static spot camping. The intent here is for most spots to become some kind of “public event”, maybe a combination of multiple spots. Some of those events will have stages, e. g. kill the lowly things as stage 1 and then named things spawn for stage 2.

These public events will work like the rvr participation task: any action you or your group makes to progress the event will be recorded and once the event is over a sizable amount of extra xp and / or coin will be given out, according to your contribution.
Depending on how the xp from mobs compared to event rewards ends up, this should also nicely remove all spot ownership complaints as you are pretty much working together with everyone.

The most common and simplest event will literally be to eradicate all mobs at a given spot. Mobs that are part of such an event won’t respawn anymore until the event has completed, completing an event will then start some timer after which the event resets and the stage 1 mobs respawn.
These events will be incredibly common, in general if something looks like a spot, it’s somewhat safe to assume that it will either become an event or be part of an event.
Whenever possible / the map allows it, we’ll try to have the event make sense / be thematically fitting but that’s not exactly a requirement, the intent is literally to gamify the leveling / farming process via these mini events where some additional progress will tick up followed by some reward.

We have some ideas on how to handle dungeons but aren’t entirely sure yet how we’ll handle those. One extreme would be to clear the entire dungeon as stage 1 and then have a boss spawn, another would be to have multiple of these events inside the same dungeon active at the same time. A middle ground would be to have a high number of stages with a trash clear -> boss -> trash clear -> boss stage swap, the first stage would obviously start near the entrance. Problem with that approach is however what is in the deeper areas while the early stages are active, e. g. is just the entrance filled with relevant mobs and the dungeon otherwise empty. A hybrid approach that for now seems the most sensible would be that we’ll try to split the dungeon in multiple areas each having an event with multiple trash -> boss -> trash -> boss stages.

The general timeline is still somewhat unclear, however, both mechanics will at first be tested in a separate zone for a couple days to see if it works at all. After the event / test we’ll enable scaling in the pve dungeons, SI overworld and the classic overworld. The next step would then be to slowly group existing spawners into events, this would ideally happen without real player interruption but at least at first some issues are likely.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:14 PM by jonny290
This is a really interesting paradigm shift but I will suspect there are about five thousand necros and animists typing up posts right now. Many players - casual and experienced alike - rely on farming 'static' camps for money, especially if they aren't an experienced DS runner. How would their experience change?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:19 PM by gruenesschaf
jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:14 PM
This is a really interesting paradigm shift but I will suspect there are about five thousand necros and animists typing up posts right now. Many players - casual and experienced alike - rely on farming 'static' camps for money, especially if they aren't an experienced DS runner. How would their experience change?

Greatly. Macro / afk farming on bd / animist is a not insignificant reason for the shift to events and otherwise not having respawn ie forcing at least some movement. However, just having scaling without this shift would kind of mean people stay from 1 - 50 at the same 3 spots in every realm, so it's not only beneficial to make it harder for macro users but also the gamification should be somewhat more interesting for most people than standing at the same spot forever and not moving.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:21 PM by Xsaintus
Will the bonuses from doing ds/hoh be integrated into theese "events" ?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:24 PM by Astaa
How will exp items work? I level purely from farming exp items, and think I am pretty efficient at solo levelling.1 day 19 hours on reaver and 49, with a load of hours in PvP to get close to RR3 in between, 2L7 at 44.

I'm not that bothered one way or the other, just interested
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:30 PM by jonny290
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:19 PM
Greatly. Macro / afk farming on bd / animist is a not insignificant reason for the shift to events and otherwise not having respawn ie forcing at least some movement. However, just having scaling without this shift would kind of mean people stay from 1 - 50 at the same 3 spots in every realm, so it's not only beneficial to make it harder for macro users but also the gamification should be somewhat more interesting for most people than standing at the same spot forever and not moving.

Excellent points. I look forward to giving it an honest try.

This does remind me of the orc/ogre camp on live, which needs to be 'triggered' to respawn. That works fine and I would have no problem with systems inspired by that. Thanks!
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:33 PM by 0ri
Super interested in this. Sounds really exciting. Will be keeping a close eye on this.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:33 PM by Centenario
How about loots? can we all equip lvl 50 gear?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:36 PM by bculpepper
Just to be clear. This will end

  • Modern Groups
  • Shaman Solo Farming
  • Animist Solo Farming
  • Necro/Cab Farming

Is that correct? The AOE DOT Farming depends on the respawn so I assume it can't be done after this?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:38 PM by gruenesschaf
Centenario wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:33 PM
How about loots? can we all equip lvl 50 gear?

You still have your level and personal loot will give you loot for your level. The scaling will pretty much be in the damage/healing numbers only. E. g. the same mob that would hit a level 50 for 300 damage would hit a level 20 char for like 30 (didn't check those numbers), the same heal to the 50 could do 421 and would do 42 on the level 20. If you're grouped with people of your actual level nothing would be scaled.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:38 PM by mhuff13
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:19 PM
jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:14 PM
This is a really interesting paradigm shift but I will suspect there are about five thousand necros and animists typing up posts right now. Many players - casual and experienced alike - rely on farming 'static' camps for money, especially if they aren't an experienced DS runner. How would their experience change?

Greatly. Macro / afk farming on bd / animist is a not insignificant reason for the shift to events and otherwise not having respawn ie forcing at least some movement. However, just having scaling without this shift would kind of mean people stay from 1 - 50 at the same 3 spots in every realm, so it's not only beneficial to make it harder for macro users but also the gamification should be somewhat more interesting for most people than standing at the same spot forever and not moving.

As someone who really can't ever group, due to RL issues, I am a solo player 99% of the time. PvE and RvR. These camps, with both my necro and my cave shaman, are my sole source of income. Curious to see if there will be ways for me to continue to play after this change. I know I am in the vast minority of players and I know players like me aren't catered to, nor should I be, I am just curious to see how it turns out.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:40 PM by mhuff13
bculpepper wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:36 PM
Just to be clear. This will end

  • Modern Groups
  • Shaman Solo Farming
  • Animist Solo Farming
  • Necro/Cab Farming

Is that correct? The AOE DOT Farming depends on the respawn so I assume it can't be done after this?

This is my concern as well, as solo farming is my ONLY source of income in the game.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:41 PM by Centenario
How about doing one zone at a time if you create new events and new spots?
(to give time for suggestions and feedback)
I know that each zone is loved and known by heart, sometimes.
It could be cool to improve them but with some tact.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:42 PM by gruenesschaf
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:38 PM
As someone who really can't ever group, due to RL issues, I am a solo player 99% of the time. PvE and RvR. These camps, with both my necro and my cave shaman, are my sole source of income. Curious to see if there will be ways for me to continue to play after this change. I know I am in the vast minority of players and I know players like me aren't catered to, nor should I be, I am just curious to see how it turns out.

The ae dot stuff would loose value, the necro is not really affected but you'd now have to move around. Anyways, even with ae dot you would still be able to rake up huge amounts of participation early on while there are still mob clusters. Once you and/or those around you complete the event you would then get a reward according to your participation. You are thereby effectively grouped without having to do so explicitly, at least for the event rewards.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:44 PM by Astaa
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:40 PM
bculpepper wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:36 PM
Just to be clear. This will end

  • Modern Groups
  • Shaman Solo Farming
  • Animist Solo Farming
  • Necro/Cab Farming

Is that correct? The AOE DOT Farming depends on the respawn so I assume it can't be done after this?

This is my concern as well, as solo farming is my ONLY source of income in the game.

Likewise, but I think this might actually make things easier by making spawn camping less of an issue, there are stacks of mob camps all over that would work very well at 50.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:45 PM by gruenesschaf
Centenario wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:41 PM
How about doing one zone at a time if you create new events and new spots?
(to give time for suggestions and feedback)
I know that each zone is loved and known by heart, sometimes.
It could be cool to improve them but with some tact.

The initial introduction won't really change much, aside from setting a permanent mob color obviously. Basically in most cases an existing spawner (or 2 - 3 that are close together) would just become an event.
Future zone by zone refinements could then happen to add more stages or do something more thematically fitting for the relevant area.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:46 PM by mhuff13
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:42 PM
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:38 PM
As someone who really can't ever group, due to RL issues, I am a solo player 99% of the time. PvE and RvR. These camps, with both my necro and my cave shaman, are my sole source of income. Curious to see if there will be ways for me to continue to play after this change. I know I am in the vast minority of players and I know players like me aren't catered to, nor should I be, I am just curious to see how it turns out.

The ae dot stuff would loose value, the necro is not really affected but you'd now have to move around. Anyways, even with ae dot you would still be able to rake up huge amounts of participation early on while there are still mob clusters. Once you and/or those around you complete the event you would then get a reward according to your participation. You are thereby effectively grouped without having to do so explicitly, at least for the event rewards.

So pve would essentially be like the leveling event? Just tag everything you see? Don't mean that being smart or sarcastic, serious question.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM by gruenesschaf
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:46 PM
So pve would essentially be like the leveling event? Just tag everything you see? Don't mean that being smart or sarcastic, serious question.

No. The leveling event needs tagging only, this here would at least be actual participation (e. g. damage value or heal value) like the rvr tasks or might even be kill % only.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus
This feels like this is just another farming nerf disguised as "helping people level" by making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

EDIT:
Added "This feels like" to the beginning of the response.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:51 PM by mhuff13
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:46 PM
So pve would essentially be like the leveling event? Just tag everything you see? Don't mean that being smart or sarcastic, serious question.

No. The leveling event needs tagging only, this here would at least be actual participation (e. g. damage value or heal value) like the rvr tasks or might even be kill % only.

Thank you for the replies. While this is concerning, I am going to just trust that you all will take this into consideration and us more casual players will still be able to compete somewhat. Even from this little bit of info, none of us players can really predict how it will be. I mean, the personal loot changes were going to be the end of the game when people first heard of them. That didn't happen.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:53 PM by gruenesschaf
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM
This is just another farming nerf disguised as "helping people level" by making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Scaling is an actual requirement and genuine improvement to have people find groups. Scaling however somewhat necessitates some change to avoid people staying in a single spot for 1 - 50. Removing the latter part by definitions means making people move around to level, thanks to scaling every level spot is now also a farm spot. But yes, making it harder for bd / animist macro farmer is not an unintended side effect.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:03 PM by Tamvolan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:53 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM
This is just another farming nerf disguised as "helping people level" by making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Scaling is an actual requirement and genuine improvement to have people find groups. Scaling however somewhat necessitates some change to avoid people staying in a single spot for 1 - 50. Removing the latter part by definitions means making people move around to level, thanks to scaling every level spot is now also a farm spot. But yes, making it harder for bd / animist macro farmer is not an unintended side effect.

I get the desire to get rid of afk farming, etc. But, I enjoy helping guildies level, by going to a certain spot that is good for a matter cabby to pull with aoe dots, and help level. What's wrong with that? I know where these mobs are, they're always there, there's enough of them for at least 2-3 groups to kill them at the same time, and it's good leveling, and rog/salvage gathering.

Also, the xp item question is a good one. I do the vast majority of my own leveling solo, and move from one xp item mob to the next. It seems like these changes are going to negatively affect that process, as well.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:06 PM by Tamvolan
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:51 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:49 PM
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:46 PM
So pve would essentially be like the leveling event? Just tag everything you see? Don't mean that being smart or sarcastic, serious question.

No. The leveling event needs tagging only, this here would at least be actual participation (e. g. damage value or heal value) like the rvr tasks or might even be kill % only.

Thank you for the replies. While this is concerning, I am going to just trust that you all will take this into consideration and us more casual players will still be able to compete somewhat. Even from this little bit of info, none of us players can really predict how it will be. I mean, the personal loot changes were going to be the end of the game when people first heard of them. That didn't happen.


I don't understand why these changes are even being considered, other than to get rid of the afk/macro farming, which I'm perfectly good with. But, it seems like it's going to negatively affect a lot of others that do these things while actively sitting at the keyboard, and actively interacting with the game/environment... Was PVE really that bad that it has to be changed? Why can't something, anything, just be left alone?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:07 PM by gruenesschaf
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:03 PM
Also, the xp item question is a good one. I do the vast majority of my own leveling solo, and move from one xp item mob to the next. It seems like these changes are going to negatively affect that process, as well.

We haven't decided yet what will happen with xp items. It basically ranges from no changes, removing the level restrictions, making it systematic, making it a stage completion reward, making all and only named mobs always drop one (and potentially adding more named mobs) or maybe something else entirely.
Having the concept of a desirable, farmable item - like the xp items - is something we consider valuable.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 PM by mhuff13
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:07 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:03 PM
Also, the xp item question is a good one. I do the vast majority of my own leveling solo, and move from one xp item mob to the next. It seems like these changes are going to negatively affect that process, as well.

We haven't decided yet what will happen with xp items. It basically ranges from no changes, removing the level restrictions, making it systematic, making it a stage completion reward, making all and only named mobs always drop one (and potentially adding more named mobs) or maybe something else entirely.
Having the concept of a desirable, farmable item - like the xp items - is something we consider valuable.

This ties into my solo only source of income as well. What happens with the xp items will be huge for players like myself.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 PM by jonny290
i guess my take is that:

1: Yes, it would be enjoyable to me to be able to join a leveling group no matter what level I am in and contribute to the damage/healing
2: This is not more important to me than being able to put that character in a template when they get 50.

If it takes me 3 hours less to get to 50, but 2 days longer to get 20 plat to put them in gear, did I really come out ahead?

Nerfing plat farming also means that you could have more difficulties getting some time at level 50 RVR before the 24 hour respec timer expires, giving fewer opportunities to experiment with different specs before committing.

Cash must be adjusted or else the gap between casuals and the people that already have 3,821 plat will widen.

All in all, this feels like a re-engineering of the old instanced dungeons we'd run back in the day, but in the overworld.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:16 PM by Beeblebrox
I work online during the day and just lazy farm by pulling xp mobs every 2 minutes or so on my death sight necro. I certainly don't macro farm. I do a lot of farming because I do quite a few temps for guildies and need resources. I don't usually recoup all I put into the temps. It sounds like I will have a hard time making temps like that in the future with these changes unless the rewards are really good and/or making temps somehow becomes easier. Would it be possible or desirable to reward participants with decent rogs when they reach 50 based upon past participation while leveling?

I am pleased with promoting grouping as the best way to level. That really is my favorite part of the game. I have plenty of 50s but I can see rolling new toons just for leveling.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:23 PM by Tamvolan
mhuff13 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:07 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:03 PM
Also, the xp item question is a good one. I do the vast majority of my own leveling solo, and move from one xp item mob to the next. It seems like these changes are going to negatively affect that process, as well.

We haven't decided yet what will happen with xp items. It basically ranges from no changes, removing the level restrictions, making it systematic, making it a stage completion reward, making all and only named mobs always drop one (and potentially adding more named mobs) or maybe something else entirely.
Having the concept of a desirable, farmable item - like the xp items - is something we consider valuable.

This ties into my solo only source of income as well. What happens with the xp items will be huge for players like myself.


Agreed. They are a source of income, as well.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:23 PM by DJ2000
Is it just me, or does this sound like a bit like events in warhammer ? Public events, was it?

So if you want exp, then you are fine sticking to a camp with whatever colour floats your boat, repeating the events/spots in a circle till the first respawns?
If you want to farm salvage/loot/drops/whatever then you are kinda forced to start each event, while also running from spot to spot in a circle, and leave it immediately after, because there is no respawn after the initial wave?

The named spawn afterwards is the same color as well, i assume?

(There are prolly other games that did this too, but i just remember it from playing warhammer in the beta half a lifetime ago and i didnt play that or any other game much after....)
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:24 PM by Tamvolan
jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:15 PM
i guess my take is that:

1: Yes, it would be enjoyable to me to be able to join a leveling group no matter what level I am in and contribute to the damage/healing
2: This is not more important to me than being able to put that character in a template when they get 50.

If it takes me 3 hours less to get to 50, but 2 days longer to get 20 plat to put them in gear, did I really come out ahead?

Nerfing plat farming also means that you could have more difficulties getting some time at level 50 RVR before the 24 hour respec timer expires, giving fewer opportunities to experiment with different specs before committing.

Cash must be adjusted or else the gap between casuals and the people that already have 3,821 plat will widen.

All in all, this feels like a re-engineering of the old instanced dungeons we'd run back in the day, but in the overworld.

Now, those instanced dungeons I could get behind....
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:25 PM by ExcretusMaximus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:53 PM
But yes, making it harder for bd / animist macro farmer is not an unintended side effect.

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and the ways they cheat, and I am aware that there is a completely inordinate and ridiculous amount of money already in the game, but the problem is that all that money is on a very select amount of people, who play the game like a commodities exchange; what worries me is that these changes are going to destroy solo farmers whose only income is the camps you're doing away with. Some of us can't be bothered to do Darkspire or the SI dungeons ad nauseum, so we need to be able to farm actual cash.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:27 PM by Tamvolan
Beeblebrox wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:16 PM
I work online during the day and just lazy farm by pulling xp mobs every 2 minutes or so on my death sight necro. I certainly don't macro farm. I do a lot of farming because I do quite a few temps for guildies and need resources. I don't usually recoup all I put into the temps. It sounds like I will have a hard time making temps like that in the future with these changes unless the rewards are really good and/or making temps somehow becomes easier. Would it be possible or desirable to reward participants when they reach 50 based upon past participation while leveling?

I am pleased with promoting grouping as the best way to level. That really is my favorite part of the game. I have plenty of 50s but I can see rolling new toons just for leveling.

I'm the same. I work remotely, and I usually have some toon on either leveling with xp items, or a higher level toon farming xp items for my lowers, or guildies. That same work schedule means it is that much more difficult to even try to group, so I NEED to be able to continue solo play... And sometimes, I'm just not wanting to put up with strangers, lol.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:28 PM by mhuff13
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:25 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:53 PM
But yes, making it harder for bd / animist macro farmer is not an unintended side effect.

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and the ways they cheat, and I am aware that there is a completely inordinate and ridiculous amount of money already in the game, but the problem is that all that money is on a very select amount of people, who play the game like a commodities exchange; what worries me is that these changes are going to destroy solo farmers whose only income is the camps you're doing away with. Some of us can't be bothered to do Darkspire or the SI dungeons ad nauseum, so we need to be able to farm actual cash.

This. Already those people with all the plats do things like buy all the 2.4 LA on Mid and put them on the market for 100p. I will have no chance if my source of solo cash generation is taken away. I am just hopeful we are overreacting and the change won't be that bad for solos. Hopeful.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:29 PM by jonny290
Would like to throw out the wild idea to enable this in ToA zones and leave classic/si overworlds alone. Many people enjoyed those encounters and a lot of them were very event-driven anyways. Don't add the loot, obviously, but give people the option to do 'level-less leveling' over there, or conventional in the old world.

Then ban the living tar out of whoever's still dumb enough to macro farm on Phoenix.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:30 PM by 0ri
Seems the complaints are mostly around lower income generation, but I see this as a non-issue. The misunderstanding is that if x costs y today, then x will still cost y tomorrow when no one can afford y. That's just not how that works. If no one can afford y, it won't sell. Either they reduce their price, or someone else puts the same item for less and makes the sale. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, then the economy is unhealthy - but this change would not be the cause.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:38 PM by Tamvolan
0ri wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:30 PM
Seems the complaints are mostly around lower income generation, but I see this as a non-issue. The misunderstanding is that if x costs y today, then x will still cost y tomorrow when no one can afford y. That's just not how that works. If no one can afford y, it won't sell. Either they reduce their price, or someone else puts the same item for less and makes the sale. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, then the economy is unhealthy - but this change would not be the cause.

The economy is absolutely unhealthy right now. I think these changes are going to exacerbate the situation.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:43 PM by jonny290
0ri wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:30 PM
Seems the complaints are mostly around lower income generation, but I see this as a non-issue. The misunderstanding is that if x costs y today, then x will still cost y tomorrow when no one can afford y. That's just not how that works. If no one can afford y, it won't sell. Either they reduce their price, or someone else puts the same item for less and makes the sale. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, then the economy is unhealthy - but this change would not be the cause.

This is where we get into economics chat. Specifically, a deflationary economy

The whole DAOC economy isn't player driven. Recharges will still cost 10 gold apiece. It'll still cost 6 plat or whatever to LGM spellcrafting. MP plate has a fixed cost to produce (accounting a bit for RNG on crafting quality, of course). If you reduce the money supply but keep those costs fixed, people aren't going to start selling MP plate at a loss; they're going to stop making and selling it. This could lead to a heavy reduction in such items' availability and cause real problems with templating if you aren't already plat-rich.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:51 PM by Tknova
Could always just do the changes in dungeons, kinda like how instances/catacombs was that would be fun!
It would definitely make people use them again, I rarely see ppl in them besides DF
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:02 PM by Jingo NZ
Tknova wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:51 PM
Could always just do the changes in dungeons, kinda like how instances/catacombs was that would be fun!
It would definitely make people use them again, I rarely see ppl in them besides DF

I agree it is a good idea to pick some areas to first implement this change and then slowly expand from there.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:02 PM by jonny290
Jingo NZ wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:02 PM
I agree it is a good idea to pick some areas to first implement this change and then slowly expand from there.

Another +1 on this.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:04 PM by Dhryane
First, I would like to say I LOVE the idea of scaling. This will help groups and people level. Many times I see the same people spamming for groups and really they just a few levels off. (-/+)10 or whatnot)

However, I think you guys have played with instances, and is it possible to bring the instance dungeons or play with the dungeons in some way that encompasses what you are trying to do in the open-world?


The mob system as-is is fine. Why do we need to mess with it?

Honestly, I am just asking for curiosity not to be difficult.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM by Uthred
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:14 PM by Beeblebrox
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

I'm all for helping new players and it's up to the established player base to make sure they get templated.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:15 PM by mhuff13
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

I made it clear that I know players like me should not be catered to. I was just bringing up a concern. Hardly complaining. I do appreciate the work to make things easier for new players though.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:20 PM by WildWilbur
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

Fair enough but btw: what IS your intention for the player to farm gold with that change? Feathers via endgame dungeons? In my case rvring solo for a few hours a week doesn't compensate for the costs of buffs, pots and charges.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:21 PM by jonny290
Beeblebrox wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:14 PM
I'm all for helping new players and it's up to the established player base to make sure they get templated.

So what's your answer for the eventual situation when that new player is 50, perhaps levels up a necro to pay for their 50 plat infiltrator template, painstakingly ekes out cash at half the current hourly rate and then goes to the CM and - whoops - every decent 60+ RoG jewelry item is now 20+ plat because nobody can farm large amounts of them? Do you think that player is going to hang around Phoenix for long?

And no 'established player' is going to give away 100-200 plat templates to new players just to have another RR2 in the BG. Let's be real about that one.

Leveling affects the first 8-24 hours of a character's lifespan. Farming and income affects it the _entire_ time.

Once proposed solutions for the economic side are mentioned, I will immediately shut up about this. But until then, I think it's a troubling concern.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM by Tamvolan
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

A guildie posted in our Discord about this, and what he said kind of resonates. I don't know if I completely agree, as I'm currently having a blast on this server, and I'm going to paraphrase, as I don't know that they'd want this put here but:

Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die
Where's the "just right" server?

I recently came to this server. Came due to a Youtube video I saw, inviting folks to join them. It was a blast. Definite learning curve, but caught on pretty quick. Switched over to a different realm, which meant I was pretty much completely solo, and leveled just fine, before I caught on with a guild.

This server is NOT that difficult to level on. I leveled an aug/mend healer to level 43 before getting any groups or help from the guild. There is NO offense on that character other than the auto-combat swing. I understand wanting to make it easier on new players. People these days don't have the patience to figure things out, and just go out and kill stuff to get to a certain level where people are more likely to group them. But it is already pretty darn easy to level. Maybe I'm missing some of the big picture, but I don't see how this is going to make it that much easier for folks. If you can't find a group, it's probably because there's no one doing what you want to do, or no one that wants to group at that moment.

I just personally feel that you guys are trying to fix things that aren't as broken as you think, or are more broken than I see. How many "old timers" are going to be pushed away, in order to help out a few "new comers"? There has to be a balance.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:52 PM by Artamentous
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

It says to me that the current player base, oops, I mean forumbase (the ones who care enough about the server to invest in registering and commenting here.) see past the “oh that is a cool idea” and wonder, how does this effect me? How does this change my circumstances? It’s really a basic human response to any change.

Why don’t you just address their concerns and continue to discuss this idea instead of being a snarky?

Personally I think this is a good idea. Further I think It should feed into the endgame pve by awarding stat bonuses like DS/HoH/Celestius completions do, as well as use mechanics like those places do. That way when new players get to 50 and want to experience those endgame places they are not kept out because they lack run completions, or familiarity with the mechanics.

It seems less controversial and a “win/win” to do these things in ToA zones, and dungeons then to start doing it to camps where people like to solo farm.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:02 PM by Dhryane
I think this part is important, farming and making money is really important to the game. Static farm is a nice calm way for people to farm, I'm not going to completely shut it down until I see it in action.

I am slightly worried as well.


jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:21 PM
Beeblebrox wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:14 PM
I'm all for helping new players and it's up to the established player base to make sure they get templated.

So what's your answer for the eventual situation when that new player is 50, perhaps levels up a necro to pay for their 50 plat infiltrator template, painstakingly ekes out cash at half the current hourly rate and then goes to the CM and - whoops - every decent 60+ RoG jewelry item is now 20+ plat because nobody can farm large amounts of them? Do you think that player is going to hang around Phoenix for long?

And no 'established player' is going to give away 100-200 plat templates to new players just to have another RR2 in the BG. Let's be real about that one.

Leveling affects the first 8-24 hours of a character's lifespan. Farming and income affects it the _entire_ time.

Once proposed solutions for the economic side are mentioned, I will immediately shut up about this. But until then, I think it's a troubling concern.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:09 PM by Magesty
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

I'm curious if decisions like this are data-driven. Are you tracking new player #s, new player retention, new player average level/RR before going inactive? Or have you accrued some amount of feedback that indicates this is something that would actually help acquire and retain fresh blood?

I could really see this change being a genuinely good way to attract actual new players to the game and make it interesting enough for them to stick around to level up. It's understandable that some might see this as a solution in search of a problem. Will new players retained by this PvE experience actually be able to endure the transition to the much harsher end game PvP?

I think the pushback you are getting on the forums is to be expected. Players are mostly concerned about their own situation, and for most of the people here that is an already existent farming set up. They are comfortable, and likely genuinely enjoy the PvE, whether it be farming or leveling. There is a reason we are all still here twenty years later. Even though I generally avoid leveling these days, it is still an enjoyable experience to progress through Camelot Hills and Salisbury Plains like I did when I was 13, and I can't help but feel it is a little bit of a loss.

I'm interested to see how it works out. It's always good to have new blood in the frontiers, even if they quit after a few days of abuse. If this actually works to facilitate new player retention all that melancholy nostalgia can fuck right off. Same with the plat hoarders.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:13 PM by CowwoC
Great idea regarding support of people who struggle to find a group to xp their way up. This could be a huge improvement for them and i like the idea that it moves away from static spots which really can be dull in a group and a bit movement to different spots gets the mind on a stroll as long the ways are not too long and feel natural to achieve.

On the other side it will affect - like it or not - the farm possibilities for casuals heavily and clearly favors dungeon raids as income source. If you have one or two hours to play but no raid class then you might be stuck, because you farm toon is not working anymore as income source. If you want to temp other toons you might not be able to do so if you play something else other than a caster, because you would need to farm for it forever, since the prices for melees are insane compared to caster temps. See this suggestion thread: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/28418-suggestion-even-out-the-template-costs-between-caster-and-melees

If you need money for feathers, stones or everything else - well - you better have some coin saved. Actually it does not counter the high prices, since the people who will benefit from it the most are those people who have xxx dungeon runs already and they will somewhat have the monopoly to it.

I support the approach to shut down afk farming, but imho this should not be build on the back of legit solo farming. If this is a huge concern maybe farming should be cut out entirely and a new way to buy equipment with rvr participation should be introduced or solo dungeons like the darkness rising stuff, where you could farm mats in there no matter which class you were. Even tho i actually don't like the idea to put daoc into instances, but cutting off solo farm spots is as bad it can get if prices stay the same, really.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:17 PM by Astaa
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

This is a massive boost to levelling for new players, or people levelling alts. Great stuff.

That being said, levelling is only about 30% of getting RvR ready. We really need a boost for ROGs, especially ROGS for non-casters. It is impossible to equip anything but a caster from ROGS found from farming generic mobs.

I have a capped exp animist and never found a ROG that is useful for anything but salvage (pre drop change)

I wouldn't ever want to see free 50s or free templates but you need to be reasonable. How would a melee toon or a stealther ever hope to get e decent template without a huge amount of farming. Casters, capped temp from whatever they find in the bin, which encourages the imbalance between casters and other toons.

Edit, and with personal loot being a thing, there is no reason to not boost class specific ROGs.

Edit, edit, I'm pretty established on Hib, all crafts capped, animist for farming, several 50s, several templated. Even then if I was to equip my champ or my NS (that are both currently naked) it is a daunting task, I wouldn't ever want to do it as someone new to the server.

I am working on a reaver on Alb, just dinged and the exp part was the easy part, 1.5 days /played, equipping it is another matter. Casters also have a lot more wiggle room where they don't need a capped template to be useful. My reaver in her ding 50 gear would be utterly useless in RvR, a freshly dinged caster in whatever they dinged in would be pretty much fine.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM by gruenesschaf
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM
Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die

Add to that any server of any game that is not actively advertised and hence has a rather limited potential for new players. The setting is entirely irrelevant. If tomorrow a new ywain or daoc 1.0 server would launch it would follow the exact same lifecycle as described below.

Pretty much any freeshard of any game ever that no longer advertises and where the freeshard doesn't advertise either has the same lifecycle:
(That is obviously assuming being either relatively bug free at launch or at least has no show stoppers and relatively quickly fixing the bugs and further assuming no weird drama / scandal)

Week 0 - 2: Launch + hype = huge number of players, some caught up in the hype realize they don't like the game but that's still offset by "stragglers" who somehow missed the launch hype
Starting in Week 3 - 6: Honey moon phase is over. The majority of the leavers just realize the game / setting isn't for them, a few are already bored, influx of new players still about covers the loss.
Week 7-20: Player loss exceeds influx of new players. The majority of the leavers are now starting to be those that are getting bored. This will be rather slow at first but has the chance to accelerate once a critical point is reached.
Week 20+: If the server is still alive it should have a rather healthy and stable population that very slowly bleeds those that get bored until a critical point is reached where the number of players can't sustain the gameplay anymore at which point the leaving accelerates, it can take months or even years until that point is reached but eventually it will be.

Changes or events can be made with usually the goal of stopping / slowing down the bleeding due to players becoming bored. Those things however carry the risk of alienating players. It's rather difficult to get players back once they have been lost but if they are somehow reached by certain event information and/or change information it can happen but is usually not something to be counted on.

We were "lucky" with the first lockdown as we were potentially only a couple months away from that critical point in early 2020.


The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons. The risk however is that even the launch hype population isn't enough to sustain the gameplay.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM by CowwoC
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM
The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons.

Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM by gruenesschaf
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM by CowwoC
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:43 PM by Tamvolan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:21 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM
Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die

Add to that any server of any game that is not actively advertised and hence has a rather limited potential for new players. The setting is entirely irrelevant. If tomorrow a new ywain or daoc 1.0 server would launch it would follow the exact same lifecycle as described below.

Pretty much any freeshard of any game ever that no longer advertises and where the freeshard doesn't advertise either has the same lifecycle:
(That is obviously assuming being either relatively bug free at launch or at least has no show stoppers and relatively quickly fixing the bugs and further assuming no weird drama / scandal)

Week 0 - 2: Launch + hype = huge number of players, some caught up in the hype realize they don't like the game but that's still offset by "stragglers" who somehow missed the launch hype
Starting in Week 3 - 6: Honey moon phase is over. The majority of the leavers just realize the game / setting isn't for them, a few are already bored, influx of new players still about covers the loss.
Week 7-20: Player loss exceeds influx of new players. The majority of the leavers are now starting to be those that are getting bored. This will be rather slow at first but has the chance to accelerate once a critical point is reached.
Week 20+: If the server is still alive it should have a rather healthy and stable population that very slowly bleeds those that get bored until a critical point is reached where the number of players can't sustain the gameplay anymore at which point the leaving accelerates, it can take months or even years until that point is reached but eventually it will be.

Changes or events can be made with usually the goal of stopping / slowing down the bleeding due to players becoming bored. Those things however carry the risk of alienating players. It's rather difficult to get players back once they have been lost but if they are somehow reached by certain event information and/or change information it can happen but is usually not something to be counted on.

We were "lucky" with the first lockdown as we were potentially only a couple months away from that critical point in early 2020.


The really risky yet only way to conclusively prevent the eventual fate is to actually embrace this lifecycle: seasons. The risk however is that even the launch hype population isn't enough to sustain the gameplay.

Agreed, there's always a new bright/shiny. And gamers in general are a fickle bunch. I think that last part is what you're running into here, to a degree. Making changes that are going to make the end-game prep more difficult, in order to make the starting phase easier, is a sour pill to swallow. In the end, I don't have any good answers. You're right, players will leave, smaller numbers will come in to check it out, or to reminisce about the old days, etc. I just feel like these changes are going to push more mid/endgamers out the door than pull newcomers in the door.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM by Tamvolan
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:52 PM by gruenesschaf
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"

While technically correct, that particular sentence loses quite a bit of meaning when translated, try googling my text and turning on the image search.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM by Lasrael_Hellblade
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

Fair and I understand what you're trying to accomplish. I feel there's a bigger player base that solo farms for income (be it hand-in farming, salvaging, taking PL donations etc.).

You've implemented a leveling event (which requires contributions that take away from our income already) that is widely successful and enjoyable. Others have suggested why not make this event in the TOA zones (or an instance, like the task dungeons on live) and leave the old world the way it is?

As I see it, you are forcing people to play a game how YOU want us to. I get it. Your game, your rules. The way I see it is, if people want to waste several hours a day farming and PL'ing to make money so they can in turn build their templates, help guildmates, etc..so be it. They are doing what makes them happy.

I know there's more info to come. And I'm on the fence. I like the idea but I also don't like my livelihood to make money in the game is getting gutted.

I'd like to know:

1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:03 PM by Tamvolan
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:52 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"

While technically correct, that particular sentence loses quite a bit of meaning when translated, try googling my text and turning on the image search.


So, was your statement tongue-in-cheek then? Seems like the statement about the wall resulted in exactly the opposite. So, you ARE planning a seasonal server? And if so, what does that mean?
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:07 PM by jonny290
Yes, it's a reference to a statement by a German official denying that they wanted to build a wall, two months before they built the Berlin Wall.

Which....well, I appreciate you telling us in advance, at least.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:14 PM by Centenario
To me seasonal with cosmetic reward would be a cool goal, at the moment RR grind to me is not worth the time spent.
Up to 5L0 ok, for 16.5 weapons/ 102 AF.
Maybe off-topic.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:17 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

Perhaps what it should say is that you've already made leveling super easy (which is a good thing) and made farming harder multiple times. It already takes longer to get the money to template than it does to get to 50 if you're playing anything but a caster, and your changes might (yes, I said might, not will) make that even more exasperating.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:18 PM by Irkeno
Dhryane wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:02 PM
I think this part is important.


jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:21 PM
Leveling affects the first 8-24 hours of a character's lifespan. Farming and income affects it the _entire_ time.

Once proposed solutions for the economic side are mentioned, I will immediately shut up about this. But until then, I think it's a troubling concern.

+1

This as a concept is VERY exciting and well done for taking it on, however this element of it needs to be considered quite carefully.

This is the very definition of the Butterfly effect in action.

Careful with the house of cards. Please.

That said I thoroughly applaud the effort to make it easier to level in groups. It reminds me of Destiny’s system, and that was a very good levelling experience
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:25 PM by CowwoC
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:03 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:52 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"

While technically correct, that particular sentence loses quite a bit of meaning when translated, try googling my text and turning on the image search.


So, was your statement tongue-in-cheek then? Seems like the statement about the wall resulted in exactly the opposite. So, you ARE planning a seasonal server? And if so, what does that mean?

This guy gets it.

Prepare yourself people.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:30 PM by Forlornhope
WildWilbur wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:20 PM
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

Fair enough but btw: what IS your intention for the player to farm gold with that change? Feathers via endgame dungeons? In my case rvring solo for a few hours a week doesn't compensate for the costs of buffs, pots and charges.

When** not in case lol
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:35 PM by Astaa
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:25 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 10:03 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:52 PM
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:45 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:31 PM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:29 PM
CowwoC wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:28 PM
Can you elaborate this please? What's the plan behind this?

Niemand hat die Absicht, einen Seasonal Server zu errichten.

English please.

Translation: "Nobody intends to setup a seasonal server"

While technically correct, that particular sentence loses quite a bit of meaning when translated, try googling my text and turning on the image search.


So, was your statement tongue-in-cheek then? Seems like the statement about the wall resulted in exactly the opposite. So, you ARE planning a seasonal server? And if so, what does that mean?

This guy gets it.

Prepare yourself people.

They wouldn't ever do this, because if they did it would last exactly 2 cycles before people got fed up of it. Once in a while is fine, such as the last 1 week RR reset event. Perhaps every other levelling event would work, but to be a constant thing, nope.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:16 PM by Uthred
First of all: TOA is not an option as it is already in use for different events, The Arena and as a Staff Zone to test things, etc.

Second: This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones. Or in different words: you can still farm in the Frontiers (yes, I know it is risky out there), in PoC, in SH and in DF. Besides the chance of getting killed in the Frontier is pretty high, at least in PoC, SH and DF it should be quite easy to farm the old way.

Third: Why are you so sure, that solo farming is dead after this? Do you have any proof for this? Do you have any experience with our scaling? Do you know how the mob camps will look like? Do you already know how the new mini-events will work? Do you know how many mobs you have to kill for that? Do you know if every spot will be like that? Plus: Is solo farming really becoming dead just because of you having to change the spot from time to time?

Lasrael_Hellblade wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?

To answer your questions:
1. Farm the old or the new way. Same as before. Kill mobs, farm items, etc.
2. We never said that this change is to get rid of money. We only said, that afk/macro farming will be a bit harder which is a welcomed side effect.
3. Farming with what class? Farming which mobs? Farming which items? Farming DS? Cant answer this question properly.
4. See #1. Any player, no matter if new or old will be able to make money easily.

As I said before: This change is only to help new players / lower pop time zones to easily find a group. After this patch is live, there still will be more than enough spots for any kind of farming. In addition you will still have the amazing spots in DF like Hulks/Shredders/Knights/ Dia Loop to name just a few, plus all the other spots in PoC, SH or even Frontiers if you dont like scaling. Also PLing should actually become more easy now, as every toon in a group is now useful and will make it even faster than before.

Many reactions in this thread remind of the announcement of the personal loot change. A lot of "the end is near" statements without even knowing how it will turn out and how it will look like in detail.

Maybe an example will help you to understand:
Lyonesse is one of the most popular pve zones and has about 1000 mobs in it. It is just a wild guess but I think that maybe at max only 600 mobs are really used in there while the rest will only be killed very rarely. This has different reasons (xp items, amount of mobs per spot, different colours of mobs in one spot, etc). After the change, one spot will always have the same colour to you, you wont run into the problem that you cant "use" this spot because of level differences. Also any spot will be as good as the other. You will have way more options where to go.

And this is only Lyonesse. Just think of all the classic zones that are a wasteland now, where no one is going at the moment. Any of them will become a viable option for you. Mobs that are now lvl 20 and will only be killed once in a level up cycle are after the change a viable option to go there again at higher level because they will stay the same con to you. Keep in mind that any low level spot, that you cant kill at lvl 50 because of being grey to you, will then be another great opportunity for you. You will have "millions" of new possiblities to earn xp, to make money or to farm items.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:26 PM by blu3fr3nzy
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:16 PM
First of all: TOA is not an option as it is already in use for different events, The Arena and as a Staff Zone to test things, etc.

Second: This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones. Or in different words: you can still farm in the Frontiers (yes, I know it is risky out there), in PoC, in SH and in DF. Besides the chance of getting killed in the Frontier is pretty high, at least in PoC, SH and DF it should be quite easy to farm the old way.

Third: Why are you so sure, that solo farming is dead after this? Do you have any proof for this? Do you have any experience with our scaling? Do you know how the mob camps will look like? Do you already know how the new mini-events will work? Do you know how many mobs you have to kill for that? Do you know if every spot will be like that? Plus: Is solo farming really becoming dead just because of you having to change the spot from time to time?

Lasrael_Hellblade wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?

To answer your questions:
1. Farm the old or the new way. Same as before. Kill mobs, farm items, etc.
2. We never said that this change is to get rid of money. We only said, that afk/macro farming will be a bit harder which is a welcomed side effect.
3. Farming with what class? Farming which mobs? Farming which items? Farming DS? Cant answer this question properly.
4. See #1. Any player, no matter if new or old will be able to make money easily.

As I said before: This change is only to help new players / lower pop time zones to easily find a group. After this patch is live, there still will be more than enough spots for any kind of farming. In addition you will still have the amazing spots in DF like Hulks/Shredders/Knights/ Dia Loop to name just a few, plus all the other spots in PoC, SH or even Frontiers if you dont like scaling. Also PLing should actually become more easy now, as every toon in a group is now useful and will make it even faster than before.

Many reactions in this thread remind of the announcement of the personal loot change. A lot of "the end is near" statements without even knowing how it will turn out and how it will look like in detail.

Maybe an example will help you to understand:
Lyonesse is one of the most popular pve zones and has about 1000 mobs in it. It is just a wild guess but I think that maybe at max only 600 mobs are really used in there while the rest will only be killed very rarely. This has different reasons (xp items, amount of mobs per spot, different colours of mobs in one spot, etc). After the change, one spot will always have the same colour to you, you wont run into the problem that you cant "use" this spot because of level differences. Also any spot will be as good as the other. You will have way more options where to go.

And this is only Lyonesse. Just think of all the classic zones that are a wasteland now, where no one is going at the moment. Any of them will become a viable option for you. Mobs that are now lvl 20 and will only be killed once in a level up cycle are after the change a viable option to go there again at higher level because they will stay the same con to you. Keep in mind that any low level spot, that you cant kill at lvl 50 because of being grey to you, will then be another great opportunity for you. You will have "millions" of new possiblities to earn xp, to make money or to farm items.
Sweet Endless Water Beetles that con blue, May we please have a water beetle section.
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:42 PM by jonny290
If the idea is to have camps that are always the same con, what motivation would a solo player - let alone a group - have to ever go to one of the camps that are perma blue, green, or even yellow? Everybody will concentrate on the oj-purple camps. Seems like half the area of each zone would still be perma dead, just for different reasons.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:12 AM by mhuff13
jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:42 PM
If the idea is to have camps that are always the same con, what motivation would a solo player - let alone a group - have to ever go to one of the camps that are perma blue, green, or even yellow? Everybody will concentrate on the oj-purple camps. Seems like half the area of each zone would still be perma dead, just for different reasons.

To be fair lots of 50s still farm pygmys in Alb and they are blue for gold farming specifically. If the other camps end up like that, this whole thing will be a HUGE positive.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:27 AM by Tulpa
jonny290 wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:43 PM
0ri wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:30 PM
Seems the complaints are mostly around lower income generation, but I see this as a non-issue. The misunderstanding is that if x costs y today, then x will still cost y tomorrow when no one can afford y. That's just not how that works. If no one can afford y, it won't sell. Either they reduce their price, or someone else puts the same item for less and makes the sale. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, then the economy is unhealthy - but this change would not be the cause.

This is where we get into economics chat. Specifically, a deflationary economy

The whole DAOC economy isn't player driven. Recharges will still cost 10 gold apiece. It'll still cost 6 plat or whatever to LGM spellcrafting. MP plate has a fixed cost to produce (accounting a bit for RNG on crafting quality, of course). If you reduce the money supply but keep those costs fixed, people aren't going to start selling MP plate at a loss; they're going to stop making and selling it. This could lead to a heavy reduction in such items' availability and cause real problems with templating if you aren't already plat-rich.

This is already a problem on Hib MP scale is hugely inflated due to lack of supply....
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:28 AM by Tulpa
Jingo NZ wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:02 PM
Tknova wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 7:51 PM
Could always just do the changes in dungeons, kinda like how instances/catacombs was that would be fun!
It would definitely make people use them again, I rarely see ppl in them besides DF

I agree it is a good idea to pick some areas to first implement this change and then slowly expand from there.

Start in SI because its mostly broken loot tables anyway there - Unless the recent self loot changed that... I never went back LOL
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:53 AM by Tulpa
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:16 PM
To answer your questions:
1. Farm the old or the new way. Same as before. Kill mobs, farm items, etc.
2. We never said that this change is to get rid of money. We only said, that afk/macro farming will be a bit harder which is a welcomed side effect.
3. Farming with what class? Farming which mobs? Farming which items? Farming DS? Cant answer this question properly.
4. See #1. Any player, no matter if new or old will be able to make money easily.

As I said before: This change is only to help new players / lower pop time zones to easily find a group. After this patch is live, there still will be more than enough spots for any kind of farming. In addition you will still have the amazing spots in DF like Hulks/Shredders/Knights/ Dia Loop to name just a few, plus all the other spots in PoC, SH or even Frontiers if you dont like scaling. Also PLing should actually become more easy now, as every toon in a group is now useful and will make it even faster than before.

Many reactions in this thread remind of the announcement of the personal loot change. A lot of "the end is near" statements without even knowing how it will turn out and how it will look like in detail.

Maybe an example will help you to understand:
Lyonesse is one of the most popular pve zones and has about 1000 mobs in it. It is just a wild guess but I think that maybe at max only 600 mobs are really used in there while the rest will only be killed very rarely. This has different reasons (xp items, amount of mobs per spot, different colours of mobs in one spot, etc). After the change, one spot will always have the same colour to you, you wont run into the problem that you cant "use" this spot because of level differences. Also any spot will be as good as the other. You will have way more options where to go.

And this is only Lyonesse. Just think of all the classic zones that are a wasteland now, where no one is going at the moment. Any of them will become a viable option for you. Mobs that are now lvl 20 and will only be killed once in a level up cycle are after the change a viable option to go there again at higher level because they will stay the same con to you. Keep in mind that any low level spot, that you cant kill at lvl 50 because of being grey to you, will then be another great opportunity for you. You will have "millions" of new possiblities to earn xp, to make money or to farm items.

I like it!

It will be interesting to see what happening with mobs with named loot on both frontiers and in PvE areas..... Those are a major source of salvage $$$.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 1:26 AM by Tamvolan
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:16 PM
First of all: TOA is not an option as it is already in use for different events, The Arena and as a Staff Zone to test things, etc.

Second: This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones. Or in different words: you can still farm in the Frontiers (yes, I know it is risky out there), in PoC, in SH and in DF. Besides the chance of getting killed in the Frontier is pretty high, at least in PoC, SH and DF it should be quite easy to farm the old way.

Third: Why are you so sure, that solo farming is dead after this? Do you have any proof for this? Do you have any experience with our scaling? Do you know how the mob camps will look like? Do you already know how the new mini-events will work? Do you know how many mobs you have to kill for that? Do you know if every spot will be like that? Plus: Is solo farming really becoming dead just because of you having to change the spot from time to time?

Lasrael_Hellblade wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?

To answer your questions:
1. Farm the old or the new way. Same as before. Kill mobs, farm items, etc.
2. We never said that this change is to get rid of money. We only said, that afk/macro farming will be a bit harder which is a welcomed side effect.
3. Farming with what class? Farming which mobs? Farming which items? Farming DS? Cant answer this question properly.
4. See #1. Any player, no matter if new or old will be able to make money easily.

As I said before: This change is only to help new players / lower pop time zones to easily find a group. After this patch is live, there still will be more than enough spots for any kind of farming. In addition you will still have the amazing spots in DF like Hulks/Shredders/Knights/ Dia Loop to name just a few, plus all the other spots in PoC, SH or even Frontiers if you dont like scaling. Also PLing should actually become more easy now, as every toon in a group is now useful and will make it even faster than before.

Many reactions in this thread remind of the announcement of the personal loot change. A lot of "the end is near" statements without even knowing how it will turn out and how it will look like in detail.

Maybe an example will help you to understand:
Lyonesse is one of the most popular pve zones and has about 1000 mobs in it. It is just a wild guess but I think that maybe at max only 600 mobs are really used in there while the rest will only be killed very rarely. This has different reasons (xp items, amount of mobs per spot, different colours of mobs in one spot, etc). After the change, one spot will always have the same colour to you, you wont run into the problem that you cant "use" this spot because of level differences. Also any spot will be as good as the other. You will have way more options where to go.

And this is only Lyonesse. Just think of all the classic zones that are a wasteland now, where no one is going at the moment. Any of them will become a viable option for you. Mobs that are now lvl 20 and will only be killed once in a level up cycle are after the change a viable option to go there again at higher level because they will stay the same con to you. Keep in mind that any low level spot, that you cant kill at lvl 50 because of being grey to you, will then be another great opportunity for you. You will have "millions" of new possiblities to earn xp, to make money or to farm items.

I'm still a little confused on how a mob is going to remain the same con, no matter what level I am... and I also still have the question of what happens to xp items? What voodoo do you do (lol), to make the mobs the same con? And, so I'm on the same page, there may be groups of mobs that stay the same con to you, no matter what level you are, BUT... they don't respawn except when some trigger happens? So, you can't park somewhere and farm endlessly (which I understand is the goal, to prevent the afk/macro farming)... But how far am I supposed to travel to get to the next cluster of that con mob? Out in the middle of nowhere, killing mobs, they're all gone, gotta go somewhere else... do I have to run back to stablemaster/teleporter, travel somewhere else, then run out into the middle of nowhere there? Just curious...
Sat 12 Jun 2021 5:53 AM by evert
As others have said it seems an easy solution to qq would be to implement this in dungeons for now, you can have fun with the bosses and make it a kind of mini-DS (no feathers but fun/rogs). If people love it you could then put it into SI zones maybe? And keep the “classic” experience in mainland.

In general I’m not against it but the details will have to be seen. I’m not a huge fan of the people with 17 temped 50s who seem to think you need to farm hours per week just to be able to play the game, but for a new player on a hybrid you do pretty much need to do a lot of farming just to get started, so it’s important to be careful about the effect on that.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 7:00 AM by tdrew92
I’m interested to see how this pans out, the mechanic sounds incredibly clever and a huge amount of work so firstly, thank you for your efforts.

As a necro farmer myself, I’ll be interested to understand the participation tick and how long you’ll need to wait between pulls before the mobs respawn.

The critic in me would say that you are possibly altering the entire PVE mechanic of a 20 year old game which a lot of the population knows and loves. There is a huge portion of players who solely PVE and came to this server for exactly that so this may cause some upset.

Have you considered making use of the catacombs expansion and just incorporating those instances and applying your scaling mechanic and reward tick to the dungeon?
This would be much simpler for you as it’s an isolated instance area and they were already designed to give a task tick at completion of the dungeon. This, at the very least, could be a good testing method for you.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 7:14 AM by Talo
interesting vid about scaling in general: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX2dtfEuuWU
Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:24 AM by labra
Do you plan to set scaling mobs spots on every zones or in specific ones?
Like lough derg only blue con spots and lough gur only purple ones or every zones will have blue to purple spots?
Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:24 AM by DJ2000
TL;DR: (please correct, if you see a mistake)

PvE Zone only. This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones. (Classic+SI)
No changes to FZ, DF, PoC, Instance

XP/Loot/Drops:
Mob levels within a Zone (ex.: Lough Gur, Lyonesse, Mularn) will become irrelevant, as specific mobs will just be a specific challenge color forever.
Scaling allowing you to group with anyone of your realm regardless of level. Every toon in a group is now useful regardless of their level.
Loot Rules: Your/Player Level + Mob color = Loot level.
Examples:
Level 24 + oj mob = 24< (higher than 24) Level Gear/Imbue
Level 24 + blue mob = <24 (lower than 24) Level Gear/Imbue
Level 50 + blue mob = <50 (lower than 50) Level Gear/Imbue
Level 50 + yellow mob = Lvl 50 Gear/Imbue
Level 50 + purple Gear = Lvl 60+ Gear/Imbue (Jewelry only, Armor/Weapons still capped)

Events:
The intent here is for most spots (not all spots in the Zone) to become some kind of “public event”, maybe a combination of multiple spots within a Zone.
The initial introduction won't really change much, aside from setting a permanent mob color, obviously. Basically, in most cases an existing spawner (or 2 - 3 that are close together) would just become an event. Interacting/killing the "Spawner" will start the event(/stage).
Mob spawner will become part of new public events, no respawn until an event has been completed.
Some of those events will have stages, e. g. kill the lowly things as stage 1 and then named things spawn for stage 2.
The most common and simplest event will literally be to eradicate all mobs at a given spot. Mobs that are part of such an event won’t respawn anymore until the event has completed, completing an event will then start some timer after which the event resets and the stage 1 mobs respawn.
These events will be incredibly common, in general if something looks like a spot, it’s somewhat safe to assume that it will either become an event or be part of an event.
The leveling event needs tagging only, this here would at least be actual participation (e. g. damage value or heal value) like the rvr tasks or might even be kill % only.

These public events will work like the rvr participation task:
Any action you or your group makes to progress the event will be recorded and once the event is over a sizable amount of extra xp and / or coin will be given out, according to your contribution.

Dungeons:
Some ideas, not sure yet
1. One extreme would be to clear the entire dungeon as stage 1 and then have a boss spawn,
2. ...another would be to have multiple of these events inside the same dungeon active at the same time.
3. A middle ground would be to have a high number of stages with a trash clear -> boss -> trash clear -> boss stage swap, the first stage would obviously start near the entrance. (Problem with that approach is however what is in the deeper areas while the early stages are active, e. g. is just the entrance filled with relevant mobs and the dungeon otherwise empty.)

A hybrid approach that for now seems the most sensible would be that we’ll try to split the dungeon in multiple areas each having an event with multiple trash -> boss -> trash -> boss stages.

XP Items:
We haven't decided yet what will happen with xp items. It basically ranges from no changes, removing the level restrictions, making it systematic, making it a stage completion reward, making all and only named mobs always drop one (and potentially adding more named mobs) or maybe something else entirely.
Having the concept of a desirable, farmable item - like the xp items - is something we consider valuable.

Roadmap:
The general timeline is still somewhat unclear, however, both mechanics (Mob color + events) will at first be tested in a separate zone for a couple days to see if it works at all.
After the event / test we’ll enable scaling in the pve dungeons, SI overworld and the classic overworld.
The next step would then be to slowly group existing spawners into events, this would ideally happen without real player interruption, but at least at first some issues are likely.

My Questions:
Will a started event reset by itself (server reset), or does it have to be cleared or else it stays in whatever stage it is permanently?
Will the NPCs still have levels internally, or how do you scale imbue points for Gear drops? (all OJ/red and especially purple can't be the same; 50 shades of purple...we don't want gray)
How will the current CF/LB/Rauma Loops and the Dragon Zones be effected?
Will a Named Item drop from a Named NPC scale also to player level (1-50), in terms of charges/procs/stats/imbue/worth?
Event rewards will be granted even if the player is in another Zone? Will loot rewards be transferred to the inventory? Just drop on the ground? House?
Participation will be stored until event is completed, even after server resets?
Player Pets will be scaled too? Or have they to be resummoned at some point?
Player/Pet Spells/Passive abilities/Resists that are influenced by NPC level will be scaled too?
As it becomes impossible to "farm" lower tiers Jewelry as lvl50, can lower level Jewelry be salvaged after this implementation?
Will there be XP differences, if an event is finished with all participating players being in a Grp, BG or solo or if all 3 of those participated during an event?
Will there be Loot reward differences, if an event is finished with all participating players being in a Grp, BG or solo or if all 3 of those participated during an event non-/personal loot?
Mana costs will also be scaled (lack of focus)?
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:04 PM by Bry
The population during NA time has dropped from an average of 600-650 people logged in to 440-480 people logged in just in the past month. I’m not sure what these pve changes are going to do to help improve population. Rvr has become 3-4 listed alb groups, 1 hib group, and sometimes 1 mid group. There are a couple of mid groups that run together and Zerg down other groups. Then there is the actual hib Zerg. Rvr from a group vs group view has been pretty lackluster the past couple of weeks purely from a lack of population.
Making big sweeping changes to make pve like catacombs instances sounds like a misguided but well intended change. It might slow down people who want to farm or need to farm, but why is that important? The economy isn’t experienced inflation at all. MP crafted items are still at very competitive prices. Spell crafting and alchemy costs haven’t gone up at all. So what is the point of spending time on changing pve while rvr is slowly dying?
Now rvr isn’t the only reason to play the game, but it is the backbone of the game for a large part of the population.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:21 PM by Hattrick
I don't want to get too deep in to the weeds talking economics here, but reading this thread, I think folks are not considering a few things regarding money in circulation and supply and demand.

I saw one post in this thread where someone mentioned that if solo plat farming were limited, it would make all 80 utility ROGs cost 20p+. Actually, that's not true and I can explain why. Money is subject to the law of supply and demand like everything else. The less of it there is in circulation, the more valuable each individual unit becomes. What does that mean for our game server economy? Well, if the person with the most money on the server has only 1 plat, do you think people would list 80+ util ROGs for 20p? Not likely, because nobody would be able to pay it. The price of the item would move lower until the market reaches equilibrium, or in other words, "where people can afford it".

The 80+ ROG in this example has no intrinsic value above it's vendor price. If you can't sell it to another player, it's worth whatever the vendor will pay for it. It's real value however, is determined by what a player buyer can afford to pay. If there is less money in circulation, as in the example case of nobody having more than 1 plat, the item's equilibrium price will inevitably be lower than a market where everyone has at least 10 plat to spend. That's the law of supply and demand at work. The price will come down, assuming the supply of those 80+ ROGs remains constant. In the case we are discussing, solo farming, I think it's fair to say that almost no 80+ ROGs come directly from that activity so the proposed change should not impact their supply, so a gradual decrease in money supply should cause a gradual lowering of prices.

There's a very recent in game example of what I just described, albeit from the supply side of the equation. Think about what happened after the recent double feather event. All of a sudden almost everyone was sitting on tens of thousands of feathers. What happened to the price of feathers? Well in Alb, they went from selling for about 5 to 6 plat per 20k to selling for about 4p per 20k. There was a sudden increase in the supply of feathers but demand for them stayed relatively constant so the price fell. The same thing would happen if the supply of 80+ ROGs stayed constant but the overall amount of money in circulation fell, prices would come down. The only question mark is how quickly or slowly the decrease would happen.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:42 PM by Sepplord
Good Idea and awesome approach to a levelling process and to completely reatart how Farming works, which would be intresting in a new Server

Not sure how it will work out in the current servereconomy and If it is worth the effort. (though it probably is, considering you guys probably enjoy the developing and coding side too

Will be intresting to see how it plays out in regards to the Level playing field Event that makes people feel like levelling a char inside of the Event and jumpstarting at RR5.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 1:07 PM by Hattrick
Sepplord wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 12:42 PM
Will be intresting to see how it plays out in regards to the Level playing field Event that makes people feel like levelling a char outside of the Event and jumpstarting at RR5.

Did you mean to say 'makes people NOT feel like leveling a char outside of the event'? If so, I agree that part of the dearth of leveling groups is the fact that the event is never too far away, and it is so much easier and more fun to level to 50 in that event, that many people won't bother trying to level a character in between events.

At the risk of veering slightly off-topic, I'd also like to see that level playing field event kick you out when you hit level 50. I know some people would whine about not being able to mini-zerg their way to rr5.5 with relative ease, but I think it would get rid of a lot of the 20 hour a day try-hards that insist on making their perfectly balanced 5 man groups and relentlessly rolling all the pugs, so it would end up with a more enjoyable event for all.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 2:10 PM by gruenesschaf
DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:24 AM
My Questions:
Will a started event reset by itself (server reset), or does it have to be cleared or else it stays in whatever stage it is permanently?
Will the NPCs still have levels internally, or how do you scale imbue points for Gear drops? (all OJ/red and especially purple can't be the same; 50 shades of purple...we don't want gray)
How will the current CF/LB/Rauma Loops and the Dragon Zones be effected?
Will a Named Item drop from a Named NPC scale also to player level (1-50), in terms of charges/procs/stats/imbue/worth?
Event rewards will be granted even if the player is in another Zone? Will loot rewards be transferred to the inventory? Just drop on the ground? House?
Participation will be stored until event is completed, even after server resets?
Player Pets will be scaled too? Or have they to be resummoned at some point?
Player/Pet Spells/Passive abilities/Resists that are influenced by NPC level will be scaled too?
As it becomes impossible to "farm" lower tiers Jewelry as lvl50, can lower level Jewelry be salvaged after this implementation?
Will there be XP differences, if an event is finished with all participating players being in a Grp, BG or solo or if all 3 of those participated during an event?
Will there be Loot reward differences, if an event is finished with all participating players being in a Grp, BG or solo or if all 3 of those participated during an event non-/personal loot?
Mana costs will also be scaled (lack of focus)?

Aside from server restarts, events will only reset via completion.

The mob colors will just represent a certain level offset for the player and imbue points as well as mob damage done / taken would be based on that level. E. g. as a level 50 player a red mob could be considered level 60 and a purple one 65 and orange 55 and yellow 50 etc (those levels would actually be those colors today). It's possible that we'll internally have multiple color "levels" to choose from, e. g. red, red+, red++ making red just the lowest end of what red represents now, red+ the middle ground and red++ the highest (for a level 50 player that would be 56, 58, 60 respectively).

Same as rvr tasks: be online and not in a load screen while it happens and you'll get the reward, if items are part of it those as well and your inventory is full, those items would drop at your feet wherever you are.

Server restarts will reset all participation (and events).

Pets are a somewhat difficult topic, they will most likely have to be resummoned when you level up but otherwise scale based on the actual pet level to player level difference, e . g. in case of bd it might even be the case that the pet of a low level bd will deal more damage than that of a higher level bd as the level difference between pet and player will be lower.

For now the plan is to scale stats, damage and heal values only.

No plan to make lower level jewelry salvageable.

Event reward will be based on actual participation. To simplify, if you killed 3 mobs all by yourself you will get the same amount as a both group members of a duo that killed 6 mobs. Just like for rvr participation it's split between all group members in range.

It is currently unclear if those events will even give an actual loot reward, if they do it would be a reward for individual player, regardless of their group status (but according to their participation, all people from the same group would, due to participation splitting in groups, have the exact same amount of participation, assuming they were always in range).

There is no need to scale the mana cost, as a level 32 you will only have access to your level 32 spells, they'll just potentially do more or less damage due to scaling.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 2:29 PM by CowwoC
DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:24 AM
TL;DR: (please correct, if you see a mistake)

How is this a tl;dr? lmao
Sat 12 Jun 2021 4:43 PM by easytoremember
How do you differentiate between purple and deep purple? Or is 61 63 65 the extent of it (+ ++ +++)?
Sat 12 Jun 2021 5:05 PM by Dhryane
What I bolded, I am honestly happy for. When explained like this it honestly makes sense. My question still remains about instance dungeons and/or the dungeons that already exist in-game. These dungeons while used, are not used much because the open area is far superior. This change seems to also address this, so I'm excited to see it.

Will there being any testing we can do? Or will this just be dropped into the game?

Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 11:16 PM
First of all: TOA is not an option as it is already in use for different events, The Arena and as a Staff Zone to test things, etc.

Second: This scaling will be active in all PvE only zones. Or in different words: you can still farm in the Frontiers (yes, I know it is risky out there), in PoC, in SH and in DF. Besides the chance of getting killed in the Frontier is pretty high, at least in PoC, SH and DF it should be quite easy to farm the old way.

Third: Why are you so sure, that solo farming is dead after this? Do you have any proof for this? Do you have any experience with our scaling? Do you know how the mob camps will look like? Do you already know how the new mini-events will work? Do you know how many mobs you have to kill for that? Do you know if every spot will be like that? Plus: Is solo farming really becoming dead just because of you having to change the spot from time to time?

Lasrael_Hellblade wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 9:57 PM
1. How do we make money to fund our templates? Most of us don't bother with DS (as an inexperienced player to DS is pretty much not welcomed and/or geared for it. It's an elite man's instance. As it should be.)
2. How much currency in the game economy is going to be lost when this change happens? (i.e. money runs out and crafting stops, feathers will quit being bought, etc.)
3. Is the event participation going to on par/be better to make money than farming?
4. While a new player will have a chance to get a group, is he/she going to be able to fund a template afterwords?

To answer your questions:
1. Farm the old or the new way. Same as before. Kill mobs, farm items, etc.
2. We never said that this change is to get rid of money. We only said, that afk/macro farming will be a bit harder which is a welcomed side effect.
3. Farming with what class? Farming which mobs? Farming which items? Farming DS? Cant answer this question properly.
4. See #1. Any player, no matter if new or old will be able to make money easily.

As I said before: This change is only to help new players / lower pop time zones to easily find a group. After this patch is live, there still will be more than enough spots for any kind of farming. In addition you will still have the amazing spots in DF like Hulks/Shredders/Knights/ Dia Loop to name just a few, plus all the other spots in PoC, SH or even Frontiers if you dont like scaling. Also PLing should actually become more easy now, as every toon in a group is now useful and will make it even faster than before.

Many reactions in this thread remind of the announcement of the personal loot change. A lot of "the end is near" statements without even knowing how it will turn out and how it will look like in detail.

Maybe an example will help you to understand:
Lyonesse is one of the most popular pve zones and has about 1000 mobs in it. It is just a wild guess but I think that maybe at max only 600 mobs are really used in there while the rest will only be killed very rarely. This has different reasons (xp items, amount of mobs per spot, different colours of mobs in one spot, etc). After the change, one spot will always have the same colour to you, you wont run into the problem that you cant "use" this spot because of level differences. Also any spot will be as good as the other. You will have way more options where to go.

And this is only Lyonesse. Just think of all the classic zones that are a wasteland now, where no one is going at the moment. Any of them will become a viable option for you. Mobs that are now lvl 20 and will only be killed once in a level up cycle are after the change a viable option to go there again at higher level because they will stay the same con to you. Keep in mind that any low level spot, that you cant kill at lvl 50 because of being grey to you, will then be another great opportunity for you. You will have "millions" of new possiblities to earn xp, to make money or to farm items.
[/quote]
Sat 12 Jun 2021 5:29 PM by gruenesschaf
easytoremember wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 4:43 PM
How do you differentiate between purple and deep purple? Or is 61 63 65 the extent of it (+ ++ +++)?

There isn't really all that much need for really deep purple, ignoring named mobs that usually use our epic mob system anyways the highest regular mobs are in df with around 67 - 71 near legion / the princes (highest mobs are the huge ghost things). Outside of df the highest level regular mob you reasonably encounter is already 65 with some rare 67 exceptions.

The +, ++, +++ might have been a bad thing to say, that literally only refers to potential internal naming. The client will always show orange as +, red as ++ and purple as +++ meaning there is, just like before, no visible indicator for players how deep into the color a given mob is.

We will still have the existing special epic mob system and given that dragons and other named epic mobs exist in the zones where we intend to have scaling, those two things will have to coexist. Dragons and other "important" epic mobs will remain untouched, certain named epic mobs might move around a bit however to not have them block a spot. Some epic might also be turned to regular named mobs that will be affected by scaling and could represent stage 2 of some events.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 6:19 PM by Sepplord
CowwoC wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 2:29 PM
DJ2000 wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 11:24 AM
TL;DR: (please correct, if you see a mistake)
How is this a tl;dr? lmao



But tbh, it is a pretty good to;Dr for the information of the last 10pages of additional info and questions
Sat 12 Jun 2021 6:39 PM by Artamentous
Will this effect ds xp bonus?

Would it be possible to create some of these tasks to give Stat bonuses similar to ds while in ds? Not necessarily 1:1 maybe 20:1 or just cap it at half of what ds gives.

As well as some encounters that use similar mechanics as those used in DS/HOH/Celestius?

This way new players can jump right into these instances without such a steep learning curve or the draw back of no stat bonuses at all.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:05 PM by CarlGold
I really like this idea. I am not a vet on Phoenix by any means, but I have been *obsessed* with instancing and scaling mechanics that got dropped into other MMOs.

The main reason it interests me is that there are a LOT of great, iconic locations in DAOC that just do not get used. By making "events" spawn things and not locking them to a level you get a lot more use out of them. By varying up the mix of blue/yellow/orange/red/purple you can create layered encounters that make a certain spawn area seem "alive" and more interactive, rewarding mezzes, crowd control and tank/heal mechanics more than the current mechanics do.

I think the "problem" with xp items is difficult to sort out: If you rid of the level requirements entirely it creates a situation where you can bank/sell a ton of xp items and just level up almost entirely on one farmed item.

If you want to still usher people through the various zones - 1-10 in Camelot Hills, 10-20 in Salisbury, etc, you could open up the xp item level requirements to 10 level ranges. That doesn't help the idea of adventuring at *any level/any zone.*

Keying xp items to a quest sequence could work - by clearing the bandits you spawn the bandit leader who drops the xp item.

This encourages grouping, but may leave some solo players out of the lurch. A low drop rate of xp items outside of the quest chain could alleviate this.

Given the constraints, my solution to xp items in a scaled situation is this: Have a variety drop as you complete each "ring" of quests.

If you're killing the blue con bandits, a low-level xp item can drop. If it's not for you, you an sell it or transfer it to an alt. The yellow bandit lieutenants would drop a higher level, the bandit boss a higher one, etc. This way the highest level characters need to consistently fight purples to get xp drops - and these drops should be worth more xp than lower level ones to make up for their rarity.
Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:09 PM by CarlGold
And while I love the idea of scaling (see my previous comment) it definitely feeds into the idea of instancing. I don't know what tech the DAOC engine has for instancing, however. I think WoW and other modern MMOs rely too heavily on instancing, but also - having premade groups be eligible for a hard fight fat loot experience in an instanced dungeon would be a GREAT way to encourage grouping, to play old dungeons, and get more out of some of the dungeons - they're really well designed in a lot of places, with pull spots, mini-bosses, and the like - and they tend to either just get flattened by an overleveled/overgeared group or picked away at by powerful solo-ers.

Leaving the "regular" versions open for soloers and 2 or 3 man groups and an "epic" instance for full premades or 8 man content would be a game-changer for DAOC. Imagine a "heroic" mode of Tomb of Mithra for level 50s!
Sun 13 Jun 2021 7:42 AM by gruenesschaf
CarlGold wrote:
Sat 12 Jun 2021 10:05 PM
Given the constraints, my solution to xp items in a scaled situation is this: Have a variety drop as you complete each "ring" of quests.

If you're killing the blue con bandits, a low-level xp item can drop. If it's not for you, you an sell it or transfer it to an alt. The yellow bandit lieutenants would drop a higher level, the bandit boss a higher one, etc. This way the highest level characters need to consistently fight purples to get xp drops - and these drops should be worth more xp than lower level ones to make up for their rarity.

That, as well as the zone based thing, would be rather close to the two ideas I alluded to regarding a systematic approach.
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:39 PM by Bradekes
How will bleeds be handled? It would be pretty easy to kill high level mobs using a low level with bleed stacks I think.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:03 PM by Sepplord
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:39 PM
high level mobs
Those won't exist though

Maybe i am misunderstanding your question though, but can low-lvl chars currently easily kill red/purple mobs with bleeds?
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:27 PM by Bradekes
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:03 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:39 PM
high level mobs
Those won't exist though

Maybe i am misunderstanding your question though, but can low-lvl chars currently easily kill red/purple mobs with bleeds?

Think about it. Keeping a level 2 with exp off stacking up 50 dmg bleed from level 2 style after combat upgrade with fast weapon. If someone else is tanking that mobs gunna drop fast

Also think about a level 5 animist with purple power buff PL people to 50
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:28 PM by labra
back in time, in RIFT MMO (if I'm right) there was social events randomly popping on pve zones, will it be something alike?
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:44 PM by DJ2000
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:27 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:03 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:39 PM
high level mobs
Those won't exist though

Maybe i am misunderstanding your question though, but can low-lvl chars currently easily kill red/purple mobs with bleeds?

Think about it. Keeping a level 2 with exp off stacking up 50 dmg bleed from level 2 style after combat upgrade with fast weapon. If someone else is tanking that mobs gunna drop fast

Also think about a level 5 animist with purple power buff PL people to 50

I may have understood it wrong, but...
...player/pet HP and Gear restrictions will still be in place. lvl 5 player still has same HP and +skill as before.
...NPCs HP are not scaled, only the damage values (in/out) are. And they are scaled to lvl 50, not to lvl 5. Which means NPCs have lvl 50 (Red) HP, and not lvl 5 (Red) HP. A 50 bleed tick will not scale up, as it is always 50, regardless if lvl 5 or lvl 50.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:51 PM by Bradekes
DJ2000 wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:44 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:27 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:03 PM
Bradekes wrote:
Sun 13 Jun 2021 12:39 PM
high level mobs
Those won't exist though

Maybe i am misunderstanding your question though, but can low-lvl chars currently easily kill red/purple mobs with bleeds?

Think about it. Keeping a level 2 with exp off stacking up 50 dmg bleed from level 2 style after combat upgrade with fast weapon. If someone else is tanking that mobs gunna drop fast

Also think about a level 5 animist with purple power buff PL people to 50

I may have understood it wrong, but...
...player/pet HP and Gear restrictions will still be in place. lvl 5 player still has same HP and +skill as before.
...NPCs HP are not scaled, only the damage values (in/out) are. And they are scaled to lvl 50, not to lvl 5. Which means NPCs have lvl 50 (Red) HP, and not lvl 5 (Red) HP. A 50 bleed tick will not scale up, as it is always 50, regardless if lvl 5 or lvl 50.

The red to a 50 is still a red to a level 5. They are making it so the 15dmg a level 5 does would be equivalent to the 200 dmg a level 50 does to the mobs. Meaning dmg/healing is more % based on level than actual hard numbers. Making it so a 50 tick bleed from a level 2 is like 1000dmg+ from a level 50

gruenesschaf wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 6:38 PM
You still have your level and personal loot will give you loot for your level. The scaling will pretty much be in the damage/healing numbers only. E. g. the same mob that would hit a level 50 for 300 damage would hit a level 20 char for like 30 (didn't check those numbers), the same heal to the 50 could do 421 and would do 42 on the level 20. If you're grouped with people of your actual level nothing would be scaled.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:58 PM by Tyrlaan
Tamvolan wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:25 PM
Uthred wrote:
Fri 11 Jun 2021 8:07 PM
It does say a lot about our current playerbase (or should i say forumbase?), when we are trying to implent something to help new players and low pop time zones to easier level up and find a group and the majority in this thread is complaining about us destroying the solo farming.

A guildie posted in our Discord about this, and what he said kind of resonates. I don't know if I completely agree, as I'm currently having a blast on this server, and I'm going to paraphrase, as I don't know that they'd want this put here but:

Uthgard - Classic server with no QOL - Died
This server - Classic server with too much QOL - going to die
Where's the "just right" server?

I recently came to this server. Came due to a Youtube video I saw, inviting folks to join them. It was a blast. Definite learning curve, but caught on pretty quick. Switched over to a different realm, which meant I was pretty much completely solo, and leveled just fine, before I caught on with a guild.

This server is NOT that difficult to level on. I leveled an aug/mend healer to level 43 before getting any groups or help from the guild. There is NO offense on that character other than the auto-combat swing. I understand wanting to make it easier on new players. People these days don't have the patience to figure things out, and just go out and kill stuff to get to a certain level where people are more likely to group them. But it is already pretty darn easy to level. Maybe I'm missing some of the big picture, but I don't see how this is going to make it that much easier for folks. If you can't find a group, it's probably because there's no one doing what you want to do, or no one that wants to group at that moment.

I just personally feel that you guys are trying to fix things that aren't as broken as you think, or are more broken than I see. How many "old timers" are going to be pushed away, in order to help out a few "new comers"? There has to be a balance.

Same here, I absolutely had no problem levelling even support classes (like Healer as Aug on auto-swing, Warden etc.) solo. ROG equipment at your level with LT procs allows any class to kill yellow cons for the mob task system which is great for extra XP (15 of a type each day), just need to know a couple camps (with this change you still need to, even more so since as a newbie finding just one camp that works for XP won´t work anymore). At level 10+ it was NF for tinders and soil/branch/snow extra XP. At lvl 15+ it was DF whenever possible with humanoid, demons, animal and DF triple tasks. At 35+ it was NF tasks for XP and first RAs.

This is trying to fix something that isn´t broken. AFK farming can be banned. And if you feel like people stay at one spot for too long, Phoenix has a reduced respawn timer which I thought was supposed to be a QoL change but can be raised again.

Having to roam a map to find camps of mobs that haven´t been killed yet, won´t respawn until a "public event" has ended and competing/fighting with other groups over camps which won´t respawn is the anti-QoL.

This would be a perfect addition to instance dungeons. There´s no need to break open world XP and loot/cash farming.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:00 PM by DJ2000
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 12:51 PM
1. The red to a 50 is still a red to a level 5.
2. They are making it so the 15dmg a level 5 does would be equivalent to the 200 dmg a level 50 does to the mobs.
3. Meaning dmg/healing is more % based on level than actual hard numbers.
4. Making it so a 50 tick bleed from a level 2 is like 1000dmg+ from a level 50
1. Yes
2. Yes. (Numbers obv. just placeholders)
3. Unclear so far. They didn't state the math behind it yet, and i doub't they have them 100% ready yet.
4. No. Unless they screw up, just no.

You can't scale soemthing to an unclear variable.
The highest possible player lvl is 50, so everything is scaled to lvl 50. That will be the fix point for all balancing.

If a grp of lower lvl players interact with the NPC, then it will be scaled down.
If your grp of lvl 5 attacks a red mob, then its scaled accordingly. From red to 50 down to red to 5.

If you grp of lvl5 ,1xlvl35 player among them, attacks a red mob, then the NPC is scaled down to "red to 35", while other (lower) players will be scaled up.
At that point the bleed stack for the lvl 5 player is the same as for the lvl 35 player, when hitting a red mob.
Would be the same when the NPC is scaled to 50 and a player is scaled up from lvl 5.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:31 PM by Bradekes
Even if bleeds aren't a problem, left unscaled, there is still a lot abuse possible.

Having low level verd animist pet buffed with level 50 buffs and red power buff on ani. Never oom and pet is indestructible.

So dmg add/shield scale?

Do style procs scale?

Do HoTs scale?

Do buffs/debuffs scale?
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:34 PM by borodino1812
I just don't understand why such a radical change is needed....
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:47 PM by Bradekes
borodino1812 wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:34 PM
I just don't understand why such a radical change is needed....

I like the idea of these changes. It's actually very healthy for a game to introduce a scaling system for new players and keeps interest when you play with people who always want to switch toons, so instead of always trying to find a toon of yours around their level you can keep playing the one you want to level. It also beats PLing people, now they can contribute and not be bored or getting oneshot when a mob runs past them mid pull.

This is actually fixing something that is broken IMO as PVE can be annoying when you've always got to find the right classes at the right level to fill spots in a group which makes a lot of people lose interest waiting around or having a subpar group. Someone can literally role a toon and fill a missing spot instantly or log on a lower level of the class needed and keep the action going.

Too many people lack vision in these forums.

Also if they perfect the system they can introduce it into a special event where everyone can participate in frontiers like back when the server was more popular with greys out in the frontier participating.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:04 PM by easytoremember
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:47 PM
Too many people lack vision in these forums.
If I roll out scaling currency costs to your character's wealth I can conclude it's your lack of vision that seeds all your anxieties to such an implementation yes? It's actually very healthy for a game to introduce a scaling system for new players and keeps interest when you play after all

I'm alright trying to figure a means of expediating being able to level and find people to level and I hate being goaded into equity of ability (scaling effectiveness) and homogeny of mobs (without further tuning there is no difference between a clump of blue tomte and a clump of blue huldu; conventionally they became blue at different levels which creates impressions of strength/threat, whereas a set color for every mob across the board wrings out a lot of the game's flavor)
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:28 PM by Tyrlaan
These lowlevels in a group still need to farm at 50+ because they won´t get lvl 50+ personal loot/ROG jewelry while being an upscaled lowlevel in a group. And it kinda feels wrong that a lvl 5 Necro would have less trouble to kill a (now yellow con for all) arcanium salvage drop mob (unless old world drops are to be removed too?) than a Paladin that´s lvl 50 already. It´s basically taking the benefits of level achievements out of a MMORPG. Being lowlevel should feel like being lowlevel IMO.

They don´t stay lowlevels for long anyway in most groups especially with the excessive completion bonuses floating around so I don´t think it is worth the hassle with all the ways in which effects can be broken by being scaled (up or down, I remember from Neverwinter Nights, they do have this scaling content and it´s so broken in both directions).

I also mind the idea that camps can´t be camped because there´s no (quick) respawn. Having to move around to look for camps not killed yet (like by other groups) is all but fun. This is actually hurting new players the most because they still have to farm but now also have to spend extra time to roam for doing it. The least affected are fully templated players sitting on 3-digit plats just occasionally farming coin or feathers for pots and charges.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:31 PM by Bradekes
easytoremember wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:04 PM
If I roll out scaling currency costs to your character's wealth I can conclude it's your lack of vision that seeds all your anxieties to such an implementation yes? It's actually very healthy for a game to introduce a scaling system for new players and keeps interest when you play after all

I'm alright trying to figure a means of expediating being able to level and find people to level and I hate being goaded into equity of ability (scaling effectiveness) and homogeny of mobs (without further tuning there is no difference between a clump of blue tomte and a clump of blue huldu; conventionally they became blue at different levels which creates impressions of strength/threat, whereas a set color for every mob across the board wrings out a lot of the game's flavor)

I'm not exactly sure what point you're making with scaling currency as I didn't mention anything about how this change affects monetary gains as you level with this system.

I do not agree that this reduces the flavor or any appeal that came by means of feeling superior or inferior to mobs based on the con levels being inferior or superior to yours based on your char level. That system leads to such examples in this game as fishing bears the size of a dog being stronger than a bear 10x it's physical size based purely on the fact the the fishing bear is level 50 and the giant bear is level 10.

If anything this new system can lead to areas that are scary/dangerous no matter what level you are you don't want to go in alone which, objectively, gives the areas in game that have reputations of being formidable an actual way to hold up that reputation.

Walking thru areas with scary looking mobs being so weak actually takes away from the experience to me.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:35 PM by DJ2000
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 3:31 PM
Even if bleeds aren't a problem, left unscaled, there is still a lot abuse possible.

Having low level verd animist pet buffed with level 50 buffs and red power buff on ani. Never oom and pet is indestructible.

So dmg add/shield scale?

Do style procs scale?

Do HoTs scale?

Do buffs/debuffs scale?

I have no doubts, that players will abuse something if they can do it. You will find not a single person that thinks otherwise. No need to point that out.
If the devs screw the implementation up, that's on them, but not of the concept as a whole.

The Pets (all of them) seem to be the most problematic part of the whole concept. Unclear how this will be handled.

"For now the plan is to scale stats, damage and heal values only." - That's what gruenes' said.
A spell that is available to a player at lvl 40+ is of no issue to a lvl 5, because he can't use it. May it be dmg shield/add, DD or whatever. A lower level of a DMG shield works the same way it works now when cast on a player, regardless of his level. Why would there be any problem? Again: A spell at lvl 44 Base/spec is not available to a lvl 5, the lvl 5 may have only a 0,8 DPS shield. And that does exactly that, 0.8 Dps to whatever the damage he receives.

Same for the styles. For example: A Reaver has no access to lvl50 levi or the lvl18 indigo at lvl5. If he has access to it, it means he is at least the needed level. The real problem is the "stats" part of the scaling, as the magic-damage is related to the class specific "acuity" stat. A lvl 18 has gear restrictions a lvl50 does not have. The question is how do those stats scale.

HoTs are the same as with the spells in general. You can't have a red HoT if you don't have the needed level for it. And if you are, you will be able to use it the same way as you can use it today anyway.

Debuffs/buffs seem to be not included at the time gruenes wrote that, so i guess they will not scale and remain weak. A Druid/Sham/Cleric buff at lvl 5 remains to be a lvl 5 buff.

Tyrlaan wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:28 PM
...And it kinda feels wrong that a lvl 5 Necro would have less trouble to kill a (now yellow con for all) arcanium salvage drop mob ...

Yes, that was also a concern of mine. Regular loot will be scaled, that's not a problem, but named loot, f.e.: 15arcnium loot, would be a problem.
1. everyone from lvl1+ would camp that spot again, as they are mob specific. Which is absolutely NOT better than it is now.
2. why go somewhere else if such a farm spot exists? The entire concept falls apart.
Unfortunately gruenes did not respond to that question, i guess there is no clear answer to it atm.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:19 PM by Beeblebrox
HOT's are not considered heals. I found that out when I posted the fact that the amount of hp healed doesn't show up in the combat log as a bug. So how will a hot be handled? Will it be scaled? Would it even be worth casting? Since you can't see how much it heals, how will you know it is doing anything for lower or higher level toons?

I guess I didn't understand why it mattered as far as what showed up in combat log that it isn't a heal but that's a different discussion.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:27 PM by Bradekes
Beeblebrox wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:19 PM
HOT's are not considered heals. I found that out when I posted the fact that the amount of hp healed doesn't show up in the combat log as a bug. So how will a hot be handled? Will it be scaled? Would it even be worth casting? Since you can't see how much it heals, how will you know it is doing anything for lower or higher level toons?

I guess I didn't understand why it mattered as far as what showed up in combat log that it isn't a heal but that's a different discussion.

HoT would be either extremely worth it or not at all depending if you're using high level hot in a low level group or not worth at all if you're using low level hot in high level group. That is why I wondered if they would scale. If not it could be abused. Not really a huge concern I think because it's just pve. Mid might complain as they have no hot only regen though.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:55 PM by Prometheus
It's already fast enough to level so these changes don't seem to make sense, maybe you are trying to just spice up PvE and this is why you want to make changes but I don't think it should be at a global scale, maybe just the classic dungeons that people normally don't go to level or even farm.
Mon 14 Jun 2021 10:26 PM by CowwoC
How does the contribution system works at those events for dot skilled classes, since dots don't stack? And how does it work for healing/ support classes if they are not grouped or heals are not much needed? How does it work for tanks as non damage class?
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:35 AM by Sepplord
Prometheus wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:55 PM
It's already fast enough to level so these changes don't seem to make sense, maybe you are trying to just spice up PvE and this is why you want to make changes but I don't think it should be at a global scale, maybe just the classic dungeons that people normally don't go to level or even farm.

a new player that wants to try out the server/game will log in and wonder what to do, where are the quests?
They ask in advice and the answer is: just kill stuff, grind all the way
that's a turn off
if they get quests everywhere, because everything is linked to an event, that's far more attractive (assuming they manage to show eventstatus & queststep when you enter ones area/zone)
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:19 AM by Astaa
While I agree to a certain extent, DAOC levelling is so fast there just isn't a need for exping quests, the kill tasks and exp item hand ins more than make up for quest exp. Even solo it takes around 1-1.5 day /played to get 50 (non-support obvs) My hero, back in the day (2002ish) took me well over 20 days /played to get 50.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:52 AM by Ceen
I level every 6 weeks so no change for me.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 10:23 AM by DJ2000
Ceen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:52 AM
I level every 6 weeks so no change for me.
Thats the thing. 95% of the people posting here in this Topic dont actually "exp". And when they do, they do it when the Event comes around.
This change is not for those people.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 10:46 AM by Beeblebrox
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 6:35 AM
Prometheus wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:55 PM
It's already fast enough to level so these changes don't seem to make sense, maybe you are trying to just spice up PvE and this is why you want to make changes but I don't think it should be at a global scale, maybe just the classic dungeons that people normally don't go to level or even farm.

a new player that wants to try out the server/game will log in and wonder what to do, where are the quests?
They ask in advice and the answer is: just kill stuff, grind all the way
that's a turn off
if they get quests everywhere, because everything is linked to an event, that's far more attractive (assuming they manage to show eventstatus & queststep when you enter ones area/zone)

Agreed. I will level a toon sometimes because I enjoy it. However, I only enjoy it if I am leveling in a group and even better with friends. I'm not interested in AFK PL. This will make it much easier to group with friends.

I get the impression a lot of new players really don't like leveling at all. Perhaps it will be more fun for them.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 11:17 AM by Tommylad
Well the answer is obvious. Just ban levels. Every new character starts at level 50. Also ban the Archer class to end the whining. Then join a zerg in the realm of your choice and run around to take a tower take a keep....rinse and repeat rinse and repeat rinse and repeat ..............
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:00 PM by Centenario
I know Albion most of all.
So I thought:
When you create a character, you are ported to a general meetup area, which for Albion could be Prydwen Bridge (iconic and close to DF).
It can also be called [EXP HUB] on the teleporter.
An alternative would be to have multiple exp hubs for main leveling tier:
[EXP HUB 1] lvl 1-17 = Prydwen Bridge
[EXP HUB 2] lvl 18-29 = Cornwall Station
[EXP HUB 3] lvl 30-50 = Snowdonia Station
There you would have a Master Trainer, a Smith, a Teleporter, a Arrow Seller, a Healer, a Bind Stone, a Hastener, an EXP Manager.

This EXP manager, when interacted with gives you 3 options:
[Queue] Lets you queue in the autogroup feature.
[Invasions] Open new interact window with possible locations where a daily quest can be taken and done:
- lvl 1-8 can go to:
Caer Gothwaite Harbor, where they would find a quest to summon the water elemental after killing zombies, ectoplasms and dragonflies;
South of Humberton, where you would find a quest to kill the invading dwarves, get some bear meat and finish with the wolf boss (remains).
etc... (adribard templars, ludlow bandits, prydwen cemetery, Lethantis river dragons and buccas)
- lvl 8-14 can go to:
Salisbury Plains bandits and snakes,
Campacorentin forest trees and wispes
Isle of Glass Spirit Village
Isle of Glass Drakoran Fortresses
- lvl 14-18 can go to:
Salisbury Giants, cocka and buccas
Caer Ulwych Ogres and Keltoi Mages
Caer Witrin Elementals, zombies and wolves
Black Mountain North Spiders and Goblins
Avalon Isle Apple Snatchers, Trees and Dragonflies
Avalon Isle Drakorans and Magic Lights
[Option 3]

I can go on and on and create specific quests, storyline, rewards, it would be very engaging in my opinion.

Frankly I hate the daily quest system, I think instead we can make it more like a campaign system, and tie it together with the "Banished."
I personally didnt do the Horse quest, and I tried the dungeon quests, overall I think the delivery of the Banished campaign is poor at the moment, and deserve some improvements.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:06 PM by Redzus
I hope staff realized that these changes will pull away alot of people and alot interest for many players.

People come here to experience a more classic game feel then live server. How to experience the sorta classic experience if there is no way you can go to zone X and level in spots

you did last 20 years ago ?

I can understand where these idea for change comes from but i highly suggest Stop Changing everything so dramaticly since all you do in the end is OVERengineer and in the end turn people off.

I can solo level grind a char to 50 in a few days. without PL without grouping just enjoying my peace and experience how it was on release or beta if you had not been in a party.

SO why are you even keeping the " World" as is is if you intend this new system ? Just take a Toa zone needs less ressources on the server put in a couple mob spawners, and safe the server ressources to even load the now not needed zones anymore.

ALso not everyone farms in DS not everyone can farm DS so you want to force people to make specific toon to be able to farm in DS for gear and money ??

there is more then enough people not AFK farming like me who just kills stuff with a shaman kabba or ani sometimes a menta and just salvage the rogs and collect the gold.

All the changes you do style changes, trying to balance classes which where never supposed to be changed in a way and actually do game breaking things. just look at how much

NS is around and how much inbalance the last caster changes and minst changes brought ?

The more you change on such a scale the more people will find this server less appealing and play something else again or go back to live since at the point live server gives a

better classic experience then phoenix your gonna have a bad time.


What you keep forgetting the majority of your player base supports and joined this server got a classic around 1.68 experience. Alot people left already over changes that happens since its a now " slightly classic " inspired server with these changes its not in any ways classic anymore and you will feel that, you might get input from some people but 10 always bragging voices that constantly try to make you change things is not the mentality and voice of your community like the 90% like me that does not even bother to go on forum and say something productive since you get trolled and flamed way to much if you try and engage in a sensefull conversation
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:15 PM by Centenario
I think the devs have shown great effort to develop the game starting with 1.65 but taking the philosophy of the DAoC classic team and putting it on a different rail than what Live did at the time.

They are taking another path of development for the game we love.

If we want true classic we should go play Uthgard, it is a very well made server too (except for the removal of autotrain)
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:25 PM by Redzus
Centenario wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:15 PM
I think the devs have shown great effort to develop the game starting with 1.65 but taking the philosophy of the DAoC classic team and putting it on a different rail than what Live did at the time.

They are taking another path of development for the game we love.

If we want true classic we should go play Uthgard, it is a very well made server too (except for the removal of autotrain)

Thats the point, the game people love may not be what it turns into.

There have been countless server which did such mistakes before.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:46 PM by Centenario
Bear with me as I try to show what is wrong with your post:

Redzus wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:06 PM
I hope staff realized *insinuating you know better, suggesting they should agree with you* that these changes will pull away alot of people *who exactly?* and alot interest for many players. *no argument received here its too blurry*

People come here to experience a more classic game feel then live server.*generalization*, should say "I, or people like me" not very quantifiable either way* How to experience the sorta classic experience if there is no way you can go to zone X and level in spots 1- they have not said that spot will disapear, instead all spots will become viable, still no argument received

you did last 20 years ago ? ???

I can understand where these idea for change comes from but i highly suggest Stop Changing everything so dramaticly since all you do in the end is OVERengineer and in the end turn people off. Overengineering can be an issue; we have to decide a list of priority, you'd have to compare people caring about overengineering, vs people trying to have a streamlined leveling experience, vs getting more new players into the game; and a lot more issue. First impression would be that overengineering is a low issue.

I can solo level grind a char to 50 in a few days. without PL without grouping just enjoying my peace and experience how it was on release or beta if you had not been in a party. Againt pushing your own experience onto other, no receivable argument

SO why are you even keeping the " World" as is is if you intend this new system? ??? foul joke Just take a Toa zone needs less ressources on the server put in a couple mob spawners, and safe the server ressources to even load the now not needed zones anymore. This just feels like an insult: just go play in the sandbox

ALso not everyone farms in DS not everyone can farm DS so you want to force people to make specific toon to be able to farm in DS for gear and money ?? They have said DS is not meant for farming; You will still be able to farm at any spot, just that you cant do it with easy macro scripting anymore


there is more then enough people not AFK farming like me who just kills stuff with a shaman kabba or ani sometimes a menta and just salvage the rogs and collect the gold.
Maybe then just say that you would like to have some spots still viable for dotkiting farming instead of turning down the whole project

All the changes you do style changes, trying to balance classes which where never supposed to be changed in a way and actually do game breaking things. just look at how much NS is around and how much inbalance the last caster changes and minst changes brought ? Blurry again

The more you change on such a scale the more people will find this server less appealing and play something else again or go back to live since at the point live server gives a better classic experience then phoenix your gonna have a bad time.fatalistic attitude, not emotionally receivable


What you keep forgetting the majority of your player base supports and joined this server got a classic around 1.68 experience. <= no proof, a lot of people want valkyrie, or like the tasks, DS is liked too Alot people left already over changes that happens since its a now " slightly classic " inspired server with these changes its not in any ways classic anymore and you will feel that, you might get input from some people but 10 always bragging voices that constantly try to make you change things is not the mentality and voice of your community like the 90% like me that does not even bother to go on forum and say something productive since you get trolled and flamed way to much if you try and engage in a sensefull conversationFinally this is also your opinion, without proof, so not receivable, I could just as well said " a lot of people left because where to go for exp and finding a group took too long for them to stick around." Who can judge who is right?.

So if I summarize your post:
- Avoid Overengineering, keep things as simple as possible
- Keep some dot-kiting farming spot, its needed to keep the core farmer population
- Stop changing things, but change NS and Caster and Minst
- I think the server should stay 1.68, and I think people left because you steered away from classic
Tue 15 Jun 2021 7:09 PM by Redzus
Centenario wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 3:46 PM
Bear with me as I try to show what is wrong with your post:

Redzus wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:06 PM
I hope staff realized *insinuating you know better, suggesting they should agree with you* that these changes will pull away alot of people *who exactly?* and alot interest for many players. *no argument received here its too blurry*

People come here to experience a more classic game feel then live server.*generalization*, should say "I, or people like me" not very quantifiable either way* How to experience the sorta classic experience if there is no way you can go to zone X and level in spots 1- they have not said that spot will disapear, instead all spots will become viable, still no argument received

you did last 20 years ago ? ???

I can understand where these idea for change comes from but i highly suggest Stop Changing everything so dramaticly since all you do in the end is OVERengineer and in the end turn people off. Overengineering can be an issue; we have to decide a list of priority, you'd have to compare people caring about overengineering, vs people trying to have a streamlined leveling experience, vs getting more new players into the game; and a lot more issue. First impression would be that overengineering is a low issue.

I can solo level grind a char to 50 in a few days. without PL without grouping just enjoying my peace and experience how it was on release or beta if you had not been in a party. Againt pushing your own experience onto other, no receivable argument

SO why are you even keeping the " World" as is is if you intend this new system? ??? foul joke Just take a Toa zone needs less ressources on the server put in a couple mob spawners, and safe the server ressources to even load the now not needed zones anymore. This just feels like an insult: just go play in the sandbox

ALso not everyone farms in DS not everyone can farm DS so you want to force people to make specific toon to be able to farm in DS for gear and money ?? They have said DS is not meant for farming; You will still be able to farm at any spot, just that you cant do it with easy macro scripting anymore


there is more then enough people not AFK farming like me who just kills stuff with a shaman kabba or ani sometimes a menta and just salvage the rogs and collect the gold.
Maybe then just say that you would like to have some spots still viable for dotkiting farming instead of turning down the whole project

All the changes you do style changes, trying to balance classes which where never supposed to be changed in a way and actually do game breaking things. just look at how much NS is around and how much inbalance the last caster changes and minst changes brought ? Blurry again

The more you change on such a scale the more people will find this server less appealing and play something else again or go back to live since at the point live server gives a better classic experience then phoenix your gonna have a bad time.fatalistic attitude, not emotionally receivable


What you keep forgetting the majority of your player base supports and joined this server got a classic around 1.68 experience. <= no proof, a lot of people want valkyrie, or like the tasks, DS is liked too Alot people left already over changes that happens since its a now " slightly classic " inspired server with these changes its not in any ways classic anymore and you will feel that, you might get input from some people but 10 always bragging voices that constantly try to make you change things is not the mentality and voice of your community like the 90% like me that does not even bother to go on forum and say something productive since you get trolled and flamed way to much if you try and engage in a sensefull conversationFinally this is also your opinion, without proof, so not receivable, I could just as well said " a lot of people left because where to go for exp and finding a group took too long for them to stick around." Who can judge who is right?.

So if I summarize your post:
- Avoid Overengineering, keep things as simple as possible
- Keep some dot-kiting farming spot, its needed to keep the core farmer population
- Stop changing things, but change NS and Caster and Minst
- I think the server should stay 1.68, and I think people left because you steered away from classic

This is the problem of this community Salty Flamme bois putting there personal opinnion over the opinnion of others believing they are entitled to insult and joke about others down from there high horse. If you are only here to INsult and flamme other peoples Post and digest them and put your interpretation onto what others say GG


Also they make thes changes against afk farmers etc, and talk about a event system which spawn mob for you and after a few waves you have to change location. If they do that against AFK farming why would they let all normal mobs stay in world would be contra productive and not change a thing if they would not remove them wouldnt they my Friend . You are very quick to insult and flame others but dont think about the changes. Have a great day and take your attitude somewhere else. Thanks

Also i dont want changes on NS casters and minst THEY already changed NS casters and Minst
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:05 PM by Centenario
It was with good intention; I wouldn’t waste my time just for toxicity.
Tue 15 Jun 2021 8:53 PM by easytoremember
Centenario wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 2:15 PM
I think the devs have shown great effort to develop the game starting with 1.65 but taking the philosophy of the DAoC classic team and putting it on a different rail than what Live did at the time.

They are taking another path of development for the game we love.

If we want true classic we should go play Uthgard, it is a very well made server too (except for the removal of autotrain)
What makes this post any different from the one you decided to correct(®️) with colored notes?

Information you presented:
- Uthgard is true classic
- Uthgard is very well made

? lol
Tue 15 Jun 2021 9:06 PM by Centenario
Ok dude, please go back to topic.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:28 AM by Redzus
Centenario wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 9:06 PM
Ok dude, please go back to topic.

sorry but you have not been on topic from the get go, my post was my opinion and my view about this matter.

You did try to correct my view and the view of the people i spoke about.

Also my statement was directed to the staff, since they do changes and not you centenario.

So yeah stay on topic, and dont push your opinion as ultima ratio onto others.

There is no right there is no wrong in opinions.

You got your biase one i got mine.

Thank you <3
Wed 16 Jun 2021 1:57 AM by Wyndaz
Here are my thoughts on these proposed changes and this is coming from someone who has only been on the server for a week. I'm new to this server but not new to DAoC. I started a deathsight necro to have a PvE farm character. Leveling from 1-50 using XP item camps was extremely fast but necro has no downtime at all. My current farming is going to a camp and salvaging almost everything that drops. I have already got salvaging skills to lgm and next time I play I'm going to finish raising spellcrafting to lgm only about 50 points to go. I like the idea of these changes to encourage grouping. Once I roll my rvr character it would be nice to level up in a group. As long as the personal loot amount stays about the same or maybe even higher utility rewards for event completions I think these changes won't hurt the solo salvagers that much. Can group when you want and salvage your stuff or just rotate on some of blue/yellow events solo.

I think having higher utility items as event rewards would be a great idea. Maybe also do a XP boost per player where having full groups would be wanted regardless of class makeup. For example having a full group of any random composition would be better then doing an event with 4 people but having perfect group setup. This would promote grouping for XP in a big way.

Another idea would be some kind of gold earned per event completion that would maybe help with a lot of the static camp fears. Solo players could still do blue/yellow events if they didn't want to group.

TLDR. I like how this idea promotes grouping at any level and if done right will be a great change. As long there is still plenty of personal loot drops for salvaging or some kind of income bonus per event I think income will be ok.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:19 AM by gotwqqd
Wyndaz wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 1:57 AM
Here are my thoughts on these proposed changes and this is coming from someone who has only been on the server for a week. I'm new to this server but not new to DAoC. I started a deathsight necro to have a PvE farm character. Leveling from 1-50 using XP item camps was extremely fast but necro has no downtime at all. My current farming is going to a camp and salvaging almost everything that drops. I have already got salvaging skills to lgm and next time I play I'm going to finish raising spellcrafting to lgm only about 50 points to go. I like the idea of these changes to encourage grouping. Once I roll my rvr character it would be nice to level up in a group. As long as the personal loot amount stays about the same or maybe even higher utility rewards for event completions I think these changes won't hurt the solo salvagers that much. Can group when you want and salvage your stuff or just rotate on some of blue/yellow events solo.

I think having higher utility items as event rewards would be a great idea. Maybe also do a XP boost per player where having full groups would be wanted regardless of class makeup. For example having a full group of any random composition would be better then doing an event with 4 people but having perfect group setup. This would promote grouping for XP in a big way.

Another idea would be some kind of gold earned per event completion that would maybe help with a lot of the static camp fears. Solo players could still do blue/yellow events if they didn't want to group.

TLDR. I like how this idea promotes grouping at any level and if done right will be a great change. As long there is still plenty of personal loot drops for salvaging or some kind of income bonus per event I think income will be ok.
Honestly
Besides a few classes, soling to 50 is relatively painless and not that much slower.
Important….buff pots and tinders
Pick the correct mob for max damage and bonus xp
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:36 PM by Centenario
I thought about the event system, how to actually make it work and giving an example:



So if you are level 1-8 or you can join autogroups at Humberton Village or Adribard's Retreat or Prydwen Bridge or in SI at Caer Gothwaite Harbor. [For ALB]
[SYSTEM]
NPC has an aura that serves as a TRIGGER, this Aura can be shared with anybody in a 1000 unit RANGE.
The NPC is far enough away so that no other Ally is within 1000 units.
If the number of unit that has this NPC's trigger aura is more than 1 then he associate to the person or groupleader and will start his pathing (small dotted line)
If the NPC dies he will respawn in the next 5 minute window.
If the NPC is not dead, then it checks every 1 minute if there is still somebody in the aura, otherwise he will stay in place for maximum 1 minute or die.
Upon Reaching a checkpoint (red heavy line) he will handout reward to the group of the person he is tied to, and then wait up to 5 minutes for a call to continue, if not triggered then he will die.
Rince Repeat until last checkpoint.
At last checkpoint, he will stay up to 5minutes to hand-out reward (item) and Exp to the group members he is tied to.
[END]

In this example, the group has chosen Humberton Village/Castle:
They have 4 possible scenarios to choose from:
1- Bottom Left: Is the Wolf Cloak Scenario.
Reward after completion: Beowolf Cloak (low stat, brown collar cloak) & chance at Wolf Remains (boss)
This scenario would allow you to kill animals and humanoids.
Difficulty [>=4 people, 1 healer, 1 CC, 1 taunter]
Step 1: wolves in forest behind the castle, each kill gives wolf fur, packs of 3 blue wolves, 3 times in a row without stop.
Step 2: bears in hills, each kill gives bear fur, 5 times 1 orange bear without stop
Step 3: dwarven workers in the pit, each kill gives gems, 1 red 1 orange 1 yellow, twice
Step 4: dwarven guard closer to the boss, each kill gives runes, 2 red twice
Step 5: Wolf Boss, 1 purple with dot
2- Bottom right: Is the Evil Monk Scenario
Reward after completion: Leather Robe (Friar Epic Skin, low stats, 20 AF)
This scenario would allow you to kill undeads and demons.
Difficulty [>=4 person, 1 healer, 1 CC, 1 taunter]
3- Top Left: Is the Giant village scenario
Reward: 1hour exp buff (not pot, only once)
This scenario would allow you to kill giants and magical.
Difficulty [>= 1 person] single blue to single yellow
4- Top right: Is the frog in the well scenario
Reward: 50 gold (only once)
This scenario would allow you to kill reptiles, and draconic
Difficulty [>= 1 person]

Have to tweak so that 2 solo scenario grant you level 8.
Or 1 grouped scenario grants you level 8.
Then move on to one of the 9-14 zone, with other scenarios.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 5:15 PM by Magesty
That seems like an awful lot of work
Wed 16 Jun 2021 5:35 PM by gruenesschaf
Centenario wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:36 PM
I thought about the event system, how to actually make it work and giving an example

Aside from the obvious issue of having a specific level example and a matching reward and being a lot more quest like, the general idea of having events spanning multiple stages that lead somewhere / have a theme and have a conclusion is the ideal that some of these events will eventually turn into.
However, that won't be the initial release and it's unlikely that even a majority of these public events would ever be integrated into something cohesive like that, much less anytime soon.
Wed 16 Jun 2021 5:56 PM by gotwqqd
Centenario wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:36 PM
I thought about the event system, how to actually make it work and giving an example:



So if you are level 1-8 or you can join autogroups at Humberton Village or Adribard's Retreat or Prydwen Bridge or in SI at Caer Gothwaite Harbor. [For ALB]
[SYSTEM]
NPC has an aura that serves as a TRIGGER, this Aura can be shared with anybody in a 1000 unit RANGE.
The NPC is far enough away so that no other Ally is within 1000 units.
If the number of unit that has this NPC's trigger aura is more than 1 then he associate to the person or groupleader and will start his pathing (small dotted line)
If the NPC dies he will respawn in the next 5 minute window.
If the NPC is not dead, then it checks every 1 minute if there is still somebody in the aura, otherwise he will stay in place for maximum 1 minute or die.
Upon Reaching a checkpoint (red heavy line) he will handout reward to the group of the person he is tied to, and then wait up to 5 minutes for a call to continue, if not triggered then he will die.
Rince Repeat until last checkpoint.
At last checkpoint, he will stay up to 5minutes to hand-out reward (item) and Exp to the group members he is tied to.
[END]

In this example, the group has chosen Humberton Village/Castle:
They have 4 possible scenarios to choose from:
1- Bottom Left: Is the Wolf Cloak Scenario.
Reward after completion: Beowolf Cloak (low stat, brown collar cloak) & chance at Wolf Remains (boss)
This scenario would allow you to kill animals and humanoids.
Difficulty [>=4 people, 1 healer, 1 CC, 1 taunter]
Step 1: wolves in forest behind the castle, each kill gives wolf fur, packs of 3 blue wolves, 3 times in a row without stop.
Step 2: bears in hills, each kill gives bear fur, 5 times 1 orange bear without stop
Step 3: dwarven workers in the pit, each kill gives gems, 1 red 1 orange 1 yellow, twice
Step 4: dwarven guard closer to the boss, each kill gives runes, 2 red twice
Step 5: Wolf Boss, 1 purple with dot
2- Bottom right: Is the Evil Monk Scenario
Reward after completion: Leather Robe (Friar Epic Skin, low stats, 20 AF)
This scenario would allow you to kill undeads and demons.
Difficulty [>=4 person, 1 healer, 1 CC, 1 taunter]
3- Top Left: Is the Giant village scenario
Reward: 1hour exp buff (not pot, only once)
This scenario would allow you to kill giants and magical.
Difficulty [>= 1 person] single blue to single yellow
4- Top right: Is the frog in the well scenario
Reward: 50 gold (only once)
This scenario would allow you to kill reptiles, and draconic
Difficulty [>= 1 person]

Have to tweak so that 2 solo scenario grant you level 8.
Or 1 grouped scenario grants you level 8.
Then move on to one of the 9-14 zone, with other scenarios.
Wasn’t the warhammer system like this ?
Wed 16 Jun 2021 8:34 PM by whitewolf253
I like the direction this is going. Be interesting to see how it can give incentive for the outlying regions that are typically more advanced/epic but take longer to get to. Perhaps greater task rewards, loot, feathers, etc in those places to reward players for adventuring way out.
Fri 18 Jun 2021 11:19 AM by DJ2000
Bradekes wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 6:27 PM
HoT would be either extremely worth it or not at all depending if you're using high level hot in a low level group or not worth at all if you're using low level hot in high level group. That is why I wondered if they would scale. If not it could be abused. Not really a huge concern I think because it's just pve. Mid might complain as they have no hot only regen though.

HoTs and Pets (no buff cap) are as always the main contenders to "abuse" something. Has nothing to do with the PvE overhaul by itself. This has always been true, no matter the patch level.

HoT/Frigg not being a "Heal", so not being scaled, while everything else around it is.
Pets with higher tier buffs vs scaled Enemys.

Or in general:
Everything that can "tank" scaled damage (player/pet), is easier to maintain, than a lvl50 version of it.
Thanks to the Red HoTs/Friggs not being scaled accordingly, they easily out-value any scaled (down) damage.
But that only works against scaled NPCs, as EPIC encounters (Feather NPCs) are still LVL based.

What is the difference to before the change?
Now you can be in the same Grp while doing it. And that's it.
Thu 24 Jun 2021 7:09 PM by gruenesschaf
After testing a couple potential variants on how exactly the damage scaling will work, this is what seems to work best:
We set all npcs to a level and with the stats appropriate against a level 50 player, e. g. if we want a low blue mob it will be set to 41/42 and with the appropriate stats.

In case of level 50 players no scaling at all happens.

When a level 1 player attacks this mob now, the mob is simulated to be actually blue for him which would also include scaling the stats accordingly. In case of a level 1 player, our blue mob would be simulated to be level 0, The resulting damage is then multiplied by (actual mob hp divided by simulated mob hp) so that a level 1 player would still do his ~33% damage with a single hit against a blue mob.

That means the actual damage looks something like this (player here is level 1 and naked / starter staff, the dragonfly is a naturally level 0 mob, the lesser telamon in this case is actually level 43 and set to be blue for scaling and hence scaled to level 0):




This would obviously be a rather jarring experience to see these high numbers from the get go and hence we're going to lie a bit. We'll just show damage done against the simulated mob while using the actual / scaled damage for participation and aggro purposes. That basically means that unless you are grouped with many different levels and actively talk about your damage you wouldn't even notice anything strange. But once you start talking you could have something like:
"How much damage are you guys doing? I'm doing around 100 per swing, that's about 10% mob hp"
"I'm doing 6 damage, that's about 33% mob hp"


The damage taken scaling will be very similar: the mob will again be scaled down to your level and then just attack you. This time however we won't scale the damage taken any further, it is what it is. Instead, healing taken will be scaled also with a hp ratio but this time simulating player stats.
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:32 AM by Sepplord
gruenesschaf wrote: This time however we won't scale the damage taken any further, it is what it is.

This part at the end is throwing me off...what would the "even further" scaling be?

Overall the scaling system sounds great and being able to group with ANY player LFG regardless of levels will be really huge for the levelling experience
Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:33 AM by gruenesschaf
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 25 Jun 2021 6:32 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: This time however we won't scale the damage taken any further, it is what it is.

This part at the end is throwing me off...what would the "even further" scaling be?

Overall the scaling system sounds great and being able to group with ANY player LFG regardless of levels will be really huge for the levelling experience

It kind of just means that we can't use damage taken as something that gives participation in the public events as a low level player would otherwise be at a severe disadvantage. The damage scaling, and hence low level people probably doing more damage per hit, seems fine as they have a lot less quick / dex and hence attack slower in general.
Fri 2 Jul 2021 10:47 PM by gruenesschaf
We'll probably do a quick test this weekend or early next week regarding scaling. This test will not include the new public events, literally just the scaling. To better see what isn't covered by scaling yet we'll disable the "simulated" / fake damage numbers during the test.

The only missing parts needed for the initial test are scaling player / pet healing + hots and scaling the damage done by mob spells. Not required for the test but required before it can actually be used would be to answer how to handle collection task items and trash loot.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 2:59 PM by GoodOldNick
Tried it a few times today with a group ranging from 1-50.

It's a interesting concept, and I'm not sure how far the progress has come and what remains to be implemented.
There is a lot of running and searching involved, people were generally getting the same xp as 4 x mob kills as the "event reward" which was a major disappointment. Always had to take a 5 minute search for that 1 last mob every time event was nearing close, which made the whole ordeal quite not worth it.

Its nice that we can group at any levels, still - a static old school camp will still be better xp at this moment, but im guessing its too early to draw any real conclusions.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 4:23 PM by ExcretusMaximus
GoodOldNick wrote:
Sun 18 Jul 2021 2:59 PM
a static old school camp will still be better xp at this moment

At this moment, sure, but there won't be any old school static camps when this goes fully live.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 6:54 PM by cortexqc
Tried the event 30 mn and already bored...

concept of scaling to help grouping all levels and kill x amount of monster to obtain extra xp task is cool...

but... not fun to have to roam non stop to try to find mobs and even lesser fun when try to find the last mobs...
Not fun too for mana class since they cant regen... running all time sit 4 second (if you can) no time to regen, need to heal or PBAOE no mana...
On classic xp you can regen between pull, while now you have to move....

really think the good balance is to keep the concept but with a classic respawn model...

Thx to staff for your hard work.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 7:33 PM by GoodOldNick
cortexqc wrote:
Sun 18 Jul 2021 6:54 PM
Tried the event 30 mn and already bored...

concept of scaling to help grouping all levels and kill x amount of monster to obtain extra xp task is cool...

but... not fun to have to roam non stop to try to find mobs and even lesser fun when try to find the last mobs...
Not fun too for mana class since they cant regen... running all time sit 4 second (if you can) no time to regen, need to heal or PBAOE no mana...
On classic xp you can regen between pull, while now you have to move....

really think the good balance is to keep the concept but with a classic respawn model...

Thx to staff for your hard work.

Yeah, we did it with a enchantments enchanter (mana procc regen) and casters were always on 100% power (except for me as enchanter, who was always at 0% power for some strange reason) but I tried again as a healing class and while you have a point that the melee guys in class left us mana users at 0%, this is not a problem with the roam playstyle per se - its a problem with a few group members not respecting regen and just running off to the next pull.

I think what really breaks this entire style of PvE is the fact that we have to run around too much, it does not make xping more effective or help in that regard, it just adds another time drain between killing mobs, now we dont only have to rest between pulls, but we also have to rest, run and search and the searching part can really take a while, especially with that 1 mob always remaining in the end. The event completion reward should be upped by extreme amounts, until it becomes the main way to earn XP and thus the end goal, that would make this "more adventorous" playstyle totally worth it.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 8:11 PM by cortexqc
GoodOldNick wrote:
Sun 18 Jul 2021 7:33 PM
cortexqc wrote:
Sun 18 Jul 2021 6:54 PM
Tried the event 30 mn and already bored...

concept of scaling to help grouping all levels and kill x amount of monster to obtain extra xp task is cool...

but... not fun to have to roam non stop to try to find mobs and even lesser fun when try to find the last mobs...
Not fun too for mana class since they cant regen... running all time sit 4 second (if you can) no time to regen, need to heal or PBAOE no mana...
On classic xp you can regen between pull, while now you have to move....

really think the good balance is to keep the concept but with a classic respawn model...

Thx to staff for your hard work.

Yeah, we did it with a enchantments enchanter (mana procc regen) and casters were always on 100% power (except for me as enchanter, who was always at 0% power for some strange reason) but I tried again as a healing class and while you have a point that the melee guys in class left us mana users at 0%, this is not a problem with the roam playstyle per se - its a problem with a few group members not respecting regen and just running off to the next pull.

I think what really breaks this entire style of PvE is the fact that we have to run around too much, it does not make xping more effective or help in that regard, it just adds another time drain between killing mobs, now we dont only have to rest between pulls, but we also have to rest, run and search and the searching part can really take a while, especially with that 1 mob always remaining in the end. The event completion reward should be upped by extreme amounts, until it becomes the main way to earn XP and thus the end goal, that would make this "more adventorous" playstyle totally worth it.

Not all realm have enchant enchanter mana proc, necro can transfert mana yes, but group effectiveness need to depend on 1 class spec to be able to chain ? i think it's against the concept GM are trying to put in place.
But you have some good point. group mate can wait mana user, but xp is not really good cause of need to move and find monsters... so if we have to wait regen... it don't worst it.
Maybe xp for event related monster need to have a big special %bonus xp and final reward completion need to be upgraded by a lot to worst regen, roaming, search monsters.
Sun 18 Jul 2021 10:17 PM by Bradekes
I think this PvE change is going to create very unstable groups. I leveled decently fast during high mob times, but after that it was running around and people were getting very bored. This will lead to groups collapsing very often after initial phase of the area events. I also got 0 loot, not even trash sell loot, in 3 levels when grouped up.

I know the goal is to get people moving so there isn't just groups setup and farming/botting half people afk. I think remaining mobs should appear in range of players visibility if there are remaining mobs and there are none in view of a group that isn't in combat. I don't think they should appear right on top of, but at least in view where the group will have to move to kill them. There should never be any remaining mobs not in view of a player.
Mon 19 Jul 2021 2:09 PM by Wakanidoo
So, you can make camps of blue mobs, another of yellow,, orange, red and purple for xpers (solo, small, grp, whatever, the lvl of mobs geing adapted to lvl of players).
You can add camps of special mobs for Feathers, other camps for rogs.
All these camps can be in 1 area. So no need of all the actual zones, You cn delete all, just keep one.
Nothing to search, nothing to discover. Only grinding.
And if players get bored, i have an idea for you: make the /lvl50 command.
Tue 20 Jul 2021 5:20 AM by bambou10
Do you plan to give some small chance for every mob to drop some salvage loot ? You can see some post about it in this forum, for exemple midgard have no real spot to farm money.... So Just give 1% chance to every monsters to give salvage item can satisfy camping class.
Thu 22 Jul 2021 7:06 PM by Hellekin
Just a simple 👎.

It's not what Daoc is and was about, it's boring, ineffective, a wow'ish attempt to ruin a long approved and beloved system.

Just... Don't !
Thu 22 Jul 2021 8:57 PM by Forlornhope
The only positive I can see from this is the possibility of breathing some life into the BGs. Since they should, if I understand right, be exempt from the changes as a non PVE zone. One thing's for certain though, I won't be leveling anything else on this server. And if the addition of this system removes things like LB, the only worth while form of feather farming the five or six active members of my guild can do, then it seems I'll be looking for something else to play once my feather stock/gold runs out.
Fri 23 Jul 2021 1:11 AM by Smricha1
Thanks guys for implementing this much needed change. There simply isn’t enough population to sustain normal leveling anymore. I was going to quit last week but I’m back and having a blast. It’s great getting to invite new players who would normally get passed up by veterans who don’t want to bother with them.

I also really like how the change is confined to one zone so it isn’t mandatory for the more hardcore leveling experience crowd. Every player I’ve seen leveling in the new zone has been having a blast.

The only drawback I see is support players not scaling with the rest of the group, for example, a level 5 healer is pretty useless, but a level 5 wizard can hold their own. Perhaps a solution is in the works?

Anyways, thanks for the much needed change and cheers to your fantastic server. Thanks for keeping classic daoc alive. Broadsword isn’t interested apparently
Fri 23 Jul 2021 2:05 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Smricha1 wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021 1:11 AM
I also really like how the change is confined to one zone so it isn’t mandatory for the more hardcore leveling experience crowd. Every player I’ve seen leveling in the new zone has been having a blast.

It's not staying that way. Every non-instanced non-RvR zone is changing.
Fri 23 Jul 2021 6:32 AM by Sepplord
Hellekin wrote:
Thu 22 Jul 2021 7:06 PM
It's not what Daoc is and was about, it's boring, ineffective, a wow'ish attempt to ruin a long approved and beloved system.

Not saying the system is great, i haven't tested it, although on paper it has a ton of upsides and benefits.

This "argument" made me chuckle though...it's a real classic, but this is the first time i have seen it being used in regards to PvE changes

not what daoc is about when levelling gets modified

boring? inneffectiv? sounds like the old school spirit is still there then though
Fri 23 Jul 2021 7:41 AM by Smricha1
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021 2:05 AM
Smricha1 wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021 1:11 AM
I also really like how the change is confined to one zone so it isn’t mandatory for the more hardcore leveling experience crowd. Every player I’ve seen leveling in the new zone has been having a blast.

It's not staying that way. Every non-instanced non-RvR zone is changing.

Why?
Fri 23 Jul 2021 1:01 PM by ExcretusMaximus
Smricha1 wrote:
Fri 23 Jul 2021 7:41 AM
Why?

It's been awhile since I read the entire thread, but if I remember correctly it's to combat AFK farming, make people move around and see more of the game, and open up groups to help with the lower population.

Personally, having tried it and keeping in mind that it's supposed to be a complete replacement for the current situation, I think it's garbage; the rewards aren't good, running around looking for one or two mobs for ten minutes to get the next wave to pop, and a lack of loot in its current iteration are all issues that need addressed before it will be a decent change.
Fri 23 Jul 2021 9:02 PM by Smricha1
I think it would be a bad idea to put this all over. I wouldn’t go to a dungeon to do this stuff… what’s the point when I can do it in the si zone? Leave our classic zones alone 👍
Sat 24 Jul 2021 6:34 AM by kelemit
So, I tried this for the past week, and all I thought was that you basically remade ToA.

We run around a 'dungeon' looking for the right mobs to kill them to make them 'pop' the next level / mob / area / puzzle to the 'event' then kill everything there in a zergvest lacking any form of intelligence or planning in killing. Everything about the system, especially if there are multiple groups / solos / etc there, incentivizes recklessly killing as fast as possible to get the most experience.

Except, all the benefits are missing as I don't get a cool new ability or unique loot, and i have to do this event again and again and again, 10,000 or more times PER CHARACTER to finally get fifty, the whole point of the affair.

ToA at least only made me do each event a few times, once per each character, and gave me really cool loot and abilities for it (even if those abilities completely changed RvR).
Fri 6 Aug 2021 12:06 AM by Zekay
So im not sure I truly understand what the change truly means or is? in daoc a level 50 could always group with a level 1 and they would still get exp as long as the level 50 got exp so whats the difference?
Mon 9 Aug 2021 8:56 AM by Talo
Zekay wrote:
Fri 6 Aug 2021 12:06 AM
So im not sure I truly understand what the change truly means or is? in daoc a level 50 could always group with a level 1 and they would still get exp as long as the level 50 got exp so whats the difference?
the difference would have been, that lvl 1 player could do dmg to the lvl 55 mob and could stand hits from it because dmg dealt and dmg taken are scaled to character level.
that means 2 active characters instead of 1 active and 1 leecher.
but since phx is already killed it all doesnt matter anymore.

and in my opinion the coffing nail to this server is the rvr speed level event. this way the old school way of leveling died out. i enjoyed playing with low level bomb groups in DF and poc.
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