2021 Balance Changes #1 - Phoenix Freeshard

After some discussions with the new player council, the first set of changes will go in tomorrow, on the 1st.

Changes aimed at the viability of the Alb Tanker / Hybrid Setup
The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.
For Merc only, penumbra (currently alternative follow up to shadow's edge, a back opener) will become a back opener with a snare component and have its values adjusted appropriately.

Changes aimed at the viability of Mid / Hib Caster and Hybrid Setups
Alternative baseline nukes will be added
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
This also means a minor reshuffling of some of the resist debuffs, an example here would be the yellow hib eld energy debuff which will become available a couple spec levels earlier as well as a duration reduction of the relevant debuffs in each realm.

And something that supports both:
Paladin, Champion and Thane will receive access to the Dashing Defense RA

There are still lots of ongoing discussions, the next set(s) of changes will aim to address paladin and thane viability as well as some more help for certain hib caster / hybrid or possibly even niche caster setups in general. There is no ETA so far, while it can be for the most part agreed that problems exist, opinions diverge on their extent and potential solutions.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:12 PM by gotwqqd

Do casters really need more options?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:19 PM by Laec

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:12 PM
Do casters really need more options?

this change helps mid caster setups a lot actually so yes

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:30 PM by ExcretusMaximus

So much for discussing everything and releasing it all as one big patch.

Why go back on that plan? Do we really need to do it incrementally?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:35 PM by RankBadjin

Laec wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:19 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:12 PM
Do casters really need more options?

this change helps mid caster setups a lot actually so yes

Which answers the question gotwqqd asked not at all. The question was do they really need it, not whether it will help them. So to ask again, do they need it?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:37 PM by Centenario

Hello, happy new year!
I think it’s a start.
Friar pulse endo réduction: 5% of what needs to be done to make them valuable. I doubt it will mean alb will choose a friar over a cleric 90% of the time.
Maybe now paladin will not be mandatory for DS anymore, we might see more minstrel tanking, or merc/arms tanking.

Paladin/etc... dashing defense: <5% of what needs to be done, what use is this RA when your friar/cleric can die if he isn’t close to you, or if you are CCed. Since paladin has no good peel style, he will not replace the armsman 90% of the time as well.

Mid caster changes on paper look great. Might reroll a runemaster, if I come back to play DAoC.

The mercenary change IMO isn’t good, I think the peel should be on the basic weapon line so that it’s accessible to all classes, it should also be on ALL basic weapon line so that all weapon types can use it, finally it should be on the basic weapon line so that you can min max with higher RR capping at 50 basic weapon. I also think that the mercenary needs a 3-style dps combo, like berzerker. The 21 penumbra was a good candidate. The merc isn’t supposed to be just a peeler. At least now he can peel in thid :p

I think the changes won’t get backlash from alb/hib/mid, cause they are almost useless for albs.
On the other hand, nothing will change for alb, we won’t see more friar or paladin IMO on somewhat competitive 8mans.
Small steps.
Thanks for the work on the council.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:47 PM by Chamie

Hey!

It seems that the player council that has been selected here are people that have a clue of whats going on at the server.

Yes, hib and mid caster grps are too weak right now and yes alb tankers that havent been necro af debuff groups havent been seen in years.

Good luck with the changes, lets hope it has an effect!

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:55 PM by Idra

Why dont give alb an energy nuke, until caby got a useless energy debuff ?
Giving merc a peel and pally dashing Def, will kill arms..
Giving endu to friar will kill the pally, while main problem of alb and friar especially is healing.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:59 PM by jg9109

You should give Berserkers a back snare in the Left Axe line so they are not all stuck using hammers and to even it out for all 3 realms.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:02 PM by Shamissa

I like the changes especially for mid casters , they have been always weak so yeah i like it and hopefully will help as they need it.

Happy New All and Thank You Phoenix team!!!!

Xoxo

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:06 PM by Bowspine

Still waiting on a response about BD.

Are the pets in the dark line going to get a 10% boost to their Body damage as well? Lets face it BDs are a shell of their old selves and that was before this latest nerf.

If the other casters get a boost to their lifetap, isn't the pet of the BD getting hurt with out the added damage, unfairly?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:07 PM by NunchuckNunyas

Great work! Additional nuke line idea is genius. Thank you for your hard work on this.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:38 PM by evert

Seems reasonable, good work so far.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:46 PM by Illusionist

These changes are poorly thought out garbage. Now we are setting up groups created by the Devs. You should have just implemented the style changes before making strange changes to a select couple of classes. The styles changes were the majority of the vote and obviously the people who didn't vote for it were the loudest complainers, really for no good reason. So many people are trying to come over from live and can't deal with these old styles. I know personally there are over 4 classes in the game I don't play because of how ancient the styles are.

It's funny you think Dashing Defense is a great equal gift to all 3 realms - the entire Hib and Mid BG over the last couple days were joking about how useless this ability is/was and it still will be. There's a reason "they" got rid of this RA long ago.

This is really disappointing given how much praise and support I've given Devs in the past, this still won't make/help me play my Thane, Friar, Champion, Merc.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:59 PM by Nephamael

First of all, great changes!

- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab

Yes! Now the way i understand those will all be baseline nukes, so they will be very power expencive?!

If so we need to urgently address the power pool problems of baseline assist castergroups.
The only ways i see it working is to increase the powerpool of all mana users by 25% (healer classes have asked for this too, a lot since the HP buffs) or to reduce manacost of baseline nukes by 25% = healertypes and other mana users don't get the benefit (i personally prefer option1 but both would help the problem).

This is a serious problem, currently a castergroup relying on baseline nukes has roughly enough power to kill 10 enemies if none of them gets a single heal!!!!

So in a clean 8v8 going hugely in favor of the castergroup you end up with power problems at the end of it, every single time.

This problem so far has been addressed by many baseline nukers going heavily into the power RAs (mcl2 acuity4 etheral bond4, raging power 1-2) denying them passive dps/castspeed/baod/moc etc. And by 8men by opting to group more mentas or elds and enchanters debuffing heat and cold so the eld would not go oom // by grouping body sorcs or cabbas // by simply not running caster setups in Mid - there were castergroups and they disappeared with the HP change for exactly this reason.
Also casters don't have a choice to use healpots/interrupt charges etc. simply because they are forced to use powerpot/chunk on cooldown to be able to finish a clean 8v8.

------------------------------------
Regarding Mid caster i have 2 suggestions on top of the changes:

1) spirit master pet could be running at hunter pet speed (= sprint speed) - this would make spirit master pets a menace and give it offensive potential - currently sm pets are almost completely useless on the offense because you can outsprint them. - On top of this they could become lvl51 so they interrupt moc, if you want to give Midgard their own "Minstrel/Menta option" (i play mid 8 the least of the 3 realms and would find this fair).

2) Runemaster Runecarving line needs buffs, because RM is the weakest of the 3 nearsight casters and simply lacks utility - RC being his weakest specline is the best option to put utility in - imo it could be single and aoe cast amnesia fitting the Midgard amnesia theme. So Dark/Supp and Supp/Dark RMs would get access to single amnesia but not the aoe, only available at higher RC levels.
Optional or alternative RC could have a single mezz or stun and i strongly recommend RMs having access to RA: Ichor of the Deep.

One problem here regarding realm equality:

The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.

So will Warden get his endu reduction buff be a group pulse or buff too?
Right now Mid has 100% endu while shaman is alive - Alb has 100% endu while pally is alive, Hib needs to group 2 Bards to have endu reliably, else it will be down in most fights because a solo Bard has no time to twist in interruptable endusong.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:08 PM by Bry

Hib caster meta changes (buff suggestions) December 2020 DAOC Phoenix
There is a distinct problem with the Hib caster meta. The Hib caster meta isn’t competitive for a variety of reasons. These suggestions are made when comparing Hib, Alb, and Mid caster or caster hybrid comps.

Alb advanatages: Albs have superior range with sorc 1875 range mez spam and 2000 range earth pet spam. Albs also have superior interrupts. Minstrels are perhaps the best interrupt class due to 4 insta interrupts, flute spammable mez, and a pet. Reavers also have access to pbaoe pulsing interrupts, insta dd and dot of which 2 levels can be cast on each. Also, most Alb groups have 3-4 pets (sorc, cab, minstrel) plus a theurg. Body damage type. A Hib caster or Hib hybrid cannot practically run a Warden due to the extreme lack of utility a warden provides.

Mid advantages: Mids have an insta interrupt advantage with skalds and Bonedancers (the Body debuff still interrupts). Between the Bonedancer pets, the Bonedancer spamming insta lifetap and insta body debuff, the skald interupting, a mid group has a natural pushing advantage that is difficult to deal with as a Hib caster or Hib hybrid group. A good Pac Healer will start an 8v8 by insta stunning the bard. Every mid caster has root. Hammer is very popular due to conquer. A rooted or Conquere snared hib target will be left behind and assisted down on as the hib group is pushed.

Hib deficiencies: The Hib caster or Hib hybrid isn’t played because the Hib melee 4/4 group deals with these problems much more efficiently. A few problems that outline the struggle of the Hib caster group are listed below. These problems are outlined for a Hib Hybrid or Hib caster group running the following comp: (Bard, Nature Druid, Nurture Druid, Light Ment, Mana Enchanter, split spec Light/Mana Eld, Hero, Valewalker. The Valewalker could be swapped for another split spec Light/Mana Eld or another Light Ment). Wardens do not bring enough utility for a Hib caster group to be viable. The aoe root from the Nature druid is necessary for pulling as a caster comp. The damage provided by the Valewalker or Eld/Ment option for the 4th dps is necessary. Without 4 dps, the comp does not function well. Running a Bard/Warden/2 Druids for a caster group is not competitive.

A few problems or deficiencies in class spec and baseline spells are outlined below which contribute to the overall poor performance of the hib caster or hybrid comp:
1) Problem: Power consumption for base nukes.
Hibs rely mostly on base nukes, except for the Mentalist which has a level 45 Light 209 delve heat nuke. The Enchanter can only spec 22 in Light due to the requirement of having the level 49 Mana line heat debuff. The base nuke from Light costs a large amount of power since it is such a low spec, which is mandatory. When speced for 22 Light, only 20 baseline heat nukes can be cast. When speced higher in Light, about 30 baseline nukes can be cast.
Solution: Power efficiency should incorporate the +11 skill from spellcrafting and +skill from realm rank. This would allow for increased power efficiency. This is a quality of life change that can be applied across the board with little impact for large changes in the meta.

2) Problem: Lack of caster damage. Hibs do not have access to a 219 delve nuke (Runemaster and Wizard both have a 219 spec nuke).
Animists get a 225 delve bomber, but Animists are not viable due to the lack of Void Elds (bad spec) and the primary train is heat. The big damage caster is a Mentalist with a 209 heat nuke. Light Elds have a 209 cold nuke, which isn’t even used since it is so inefficient to debuff for two damage types. No other realm needs to debuff 2 damage types.
Albs have faster baseline nukes (2.5s body lifetap vs hib 2.6s heat and mid 2.6s cold). Albs also can spec higher into their baseline nuke, Cabalist at level 25 body and Sorcerers can spec level 28+ in Body. Some sorcs can split spec and have no variation with their baseline lifetap. Mids will have a Darkness Spiritmaster and a Darkness Bonedancer with no variation, but the bd has pets that do a considerable amount of damage on their own. Very few mids run a RC RM with a Dark RM assisting, but it is possible. They prefer the BD for interupts and dps over a Dark RM.
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

3) Problem: Lack of utility.
Enchanters are a debuff and nuke bot. Enchanter brings very little to the table outside of a debuff, stun, pet, and a spec light melee debuff and dehaste debuff which will never be higher than level 22. Pbaoe does happen in 8v8s to clear pets, but it isn’t a primary focus by any means. This means, the bulk of the utility comes from the level 49 heat debuff in the mana line. An entire spec is used just for a debuff. Runecarving Runemasters and Spirit Cabalists both bring stat debuffs (baseline dex and baseline str), nearsight, and root. Cabalists have a pet and runemasters have damage add and pbt. I am not accounting for speed as both alb and hib and mid have equal caster speed in a group when comparing caster comps or caster hybrid comps.
Mentalists have a decent amount of utility with a low spec level single target mez (high resist rate, even with Mastery of Focus), a modest spec heal, demez (which is critical to have a 2nd demez in the group), and a charmed pet. Mentalism is arguably the worst spec in the game, but a Mentalist is required to have 28 Mentalism for a demez.
Bard confuse is a 3.5s cast. Sorcerer confuse is a 2.5s cast.
Solutions:
Enchanters need another form of crowd control, such as a root, a mez, or nearsight. Enchanters are the only class in the game without a root or a mez. This needs to be added to the mana spec line. Damage add should be moved to baseline in Enchantments as Enchantments is arguably one of the worst speclines in the game.
Mentalists need to have demez moved lower in mentalism to allow for higher spec in light to charm a higher level pet. Mentalists need another utility (non damage) spell, such as amnesia.
Bard confuse needs to be a 2.5s cast. This was changed on the Live Server ages ago. A 3.5s confusion cannot keep up with 3.0s speed6 earth pets. The earth pets will reach the bard by the 2nd one and interrupt, even if the bard begins casting confusion on earth pets as soon as they come in range.

The Alb caster and Alb hybrid are currently overperforming in relation to the other realms. This is noticible with the amount of listed 8mans that run on Alb and the Alb overpopulation for the past several weeks.

In light of all this, we have more alb buffs. An Alb-only, yet another Friar buff, group wide endo reduction buff. Mercs get a rear snare, and Paladins get DD.

Mids get a massive thane buff with giving DD and an option for running a debuff for a thane.

Hibs get left in the dirt again. DD on a champ is helpful for the hib tank meta, which is already primary since Hib casters are so incredibly weak. The baseline energy nuke for Hib casters does litterally nothing to address the inherent weakness for Hib caster and Hib Hybrid groups.

If you are going to add a game breaking mechanic like group endo reduction, do it for all 3 realms or don't do it all.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:34 PM by soremir

Basically no change for the Friar then. This is something, but far from exciting or really that relevant. There were lots of great suggestions in the forums and near consensus that a way forward was to at least improve the HoT. It's unclear to me why you even opened it up for discussion to be honest.

More importantly, who is one the player council? Given this weak and pretty irrelevant friar change, it does strike me that you should think about having somebody who has actually played each of the classes that you are trying to fix.

The other stuff your proposing here for casters is actually more exciting.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:38 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:37 PM
Paladin/etc... dashing defense: <5% of what needs to be done, what use is this RA when your friar/cleric can die if he isn’t close to you, or if you are CCed. Since paladin has no good peel style, he will not replace the armsman 90% of the time as well.

Yeah, back snare, two side snares (or an anytime chain), and stuns ... no good peel ability on Paladins at all.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:43 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Illusionist wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:46 PM
It's funny you think Dashing Defense is a great equal gift to all 3 realms - the entire Hib and Mid BG over the last couple days were joking about how useless this ability is/was and it still will be. There's a reason "they" got rid of this RA long ago.

You know who thinks DD is bad? Bad players and zergers (notice I didn't say zergers are bad players, so don't get your panties in a bunch).

DD is a must-have staple of every 8-man group, so much so that not having it is not an option for any composition but Alb's 5-body 6-pet groups.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 5:10 PM by Svekt

I have zero issues with any of the changes and also wanted to say Thank You for continuing to try and develop this game further, I can’t believe we’ve come this far. So great job and thanks for posting for us to read ahead of time.

One question tho.... why can’t we just give all 3 realms celerity to drift further away from the caster meta? I play a sorc 9/10 times I play and would not be opposed to this. Just curious why this keeps being avoided. As for who would get it : paladin and warden. Having played mid for years and running hard push groups this is something Phoenix needs more of.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 5:35 PM by Seelixh

Yeey. New features that will eventually break more stuff.
I dont understand why you guys adding more and more custom stuff to classes. DAoC already considered all that stuff while programming that game.
What about the current stuff thats not working well? For instance: Pet pathing, pet controlling, Wrong UI-descriptions, broken spell mechanics.
Will you ever maintain that stuff?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 5:35 PM by skipari

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.

What range will this pulse have?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:36 PM by Amariidi

Svekt wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 5:10 PM
One question tho.... why can’t we just give all 3 realms celerity to drift further away from the caster meta? I play a sorc 9/10 times I play and would not be opposed to this. Just curious why this keeps being avoided. As for who would get it : paladin and warden. Having played mid for years and running hard push groups this is something Phoenix needs more of.

Because Albion with plate armor and polearm armsman would be broken af with celerity. It’s honestly pretty hard to find a good balance with alb tankers, the cast group setup gives you so much, and by adding too much for the tank setup you risk breaking other things.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:38 PM by Amariidi

Illusionist wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 3:46 PM
It's funny you think Dashing Defense is a great equal gift to all 3 realms - the entire Hib and Mid BG over the last couple days were joking about how useless this ability is/was and it still will be. There's a reason "they" got rid of this RA long ago.

No offense, but if you think DD is worthless then you’re obviously not running 8man, and that is what these changes are geared towards.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:50 PM by Sepplord

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:30 PM
So much for discussing everything and releasing it all as one big patch.

Why go back on that plan? Do we really need to do it incrementally?

Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:55 PM by gromet12

soremir wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:34 PM
Basically no change for the Friar then. This is something, but far from exciting or really that relevant. There were lots of great suggestions in the forums and near consensus that a way forward was to at least improve the HoT. It's unclear to me why you even opened it up for discussion to be honest.

More importantly, who is one the player council? Given this weak and pretty irrelevant friar change, it does strike me that you should think about having somebody who has actually played each of the classes that you are trying to fix.

The other stuff your proposing here for casters is actually more exciting.

You know groups are going to sit and wait for a class with an endo reduction buff to join them before they roll out!

The change only benefits Alb kite caster setups, even more reasons to NOT bring a paladin. Friar gets 2sec cure NS, ST, 18 staff snare, and now allows the group to perform even better with reduced endurance endo buff

It's a lame change tbh. Paladins are not needed with this change any more than they currently are, even less because now everything the alb body group does cost less endurance

Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:59 PM by NeoMatrix

- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta

Curious on the thoughts behind adding additional options into lines that already have lots of play rather than adding these new nukes to lines that don't see a lot of play to encourage some shift in meta's/build options a bit more.. rather than what seems to be a buff to the lines that are already heavily used.
- light on eld
- mentalism on mentalist

Just curious on the thoughts here, interested in hearing how these changes were arrived at if you all are willing to share.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:11 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:30 PM
So much for discussing everything and releasing it all as one big patch.

Why go back on that plan? Do we really need to do it incrementally?

The changes affect / open up multiple setups at the same time. The next couple sets of changes will each also affect multiple setups. Changes going in at the same was maybe worded badly but the intent / meaning was to not have a patch focused on just one realm / setup.

A pretty big reason why it's incrementally is to observe the effects of each set and how it interacts with the previous changes. For example while discussing other changes there were tons of references towards alternative baseline nukes and how they will work out etc.
Then there is the issue of knowing something is wrong in a certain area but not really making progress on any specific solution which would then block all entirely unrelated changes.

As long as there are loads of classes / setups in each realm that need help, the general goal is as soon as a set of changes has been found that touches something in each realm it'll go in.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:39 PM by Funzel

My suggestioin is: Fix existing classes and work on pathfinding for Pets and so on.

Once all the "basics" of a "normal" DAOC is working without any leftovers and you think, there should be a tweak here or there, put it out for discussion and filter out the extremes.

Putting new things in the game while the basics are not running smoothly isn't a great idea!

Thu 31 Dec 2020 8:08 PM by byron

jg9109 wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:59 PM
You should give Berserkers a back snare in the Left Axe line so they are not all stuck using hammers and to even it out for all 3 realms.

Agree, it's quite sad that all melee classes in Mid need to use hammer since it is the only weapon with back/side snare. Zerk needs to use two Axes !!!!

ps: I'm noone but in my opinion it would be better to break the silent rules of this server : casters with debuff are doing to much damage (the little nerf we saw didn't change it) and melee classes are used only as snare bots since their damage is quite less than the caster one and the melee class needs to reach the target (and believe me with snare styles and all the CCs is quite hard). Probably the solution is not increasing some class abilities or power but nerf some too powerfull mechanism (as I wrote debuff+cast and the abuse of snare styles). In this way maybe someone will look how to build a group in different way to be more effective. When I have 42% body resist + AoM 6 (16% as secondary resist) I receive 450-550 damage from cabalists with debuff on each cast (then there are also critics) so why , as an alb group, I should looking for something different ?
So the first proposal would be : snare styles should give immunity as other effects so it would impossible to chain snare an enemy like now.

Thu 31 Dec 2020 9:37 PM by Sepplord

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 7:11 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:50 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 2:30 PM
So much for discussing everything and releasing it all as one big patch.

Why go back on that plan? Do we really need to do it incrementally?

The changes affect / open up multiple setups at the same time. The next couple sets of changes will each also affect multiple setups. Changes going in at the same was maybe worded badly but the intent / meaning was to not have a patch focused on just one realm / setup.

A pretty big reason why it's incrementally is to observe the effects of each set and how it interacts with the previous changes. For example while discussing other changes there were tons of references towards alternative baseline nukes and how they will work out etc.
Then there is the issue of knowing something is wrong in a certain area but not really making progress on any specific solution which would then block all entirely unrelated changes.

As long as there are loads of classes / setups in each realm that need help, the general goal is as soon as a set of changes has been found that touches something in each realm it'll go in.

*puts away pitchfork rumbling quietly into non existant beard*

Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:28 PM by gotwqqd

Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:08 PM
Hib caster meta changes (buff suggestions) December 2020 DAOC Phoenix
There is a distinct problem with the Hib caster meta. The Hib caster meta isn’t competitive for a variety of reasons. These suggestions are made when comparing Hib, Alb, and Mid caster or caster hybrid comps.

Alb advanatages: Albs have superior range with sorc 1875 range mez spam and 2000 range earth pet spam. Albs also have superior interrupts. Minstrels are perhaps the best interrupt class due to 4 insta interrupts, flute spammable mez, and a pet. Reavers also have access to pbaoe pulsing interrupts, insta dd and dot of which 2 levels can be cast on each. Also, most Alb groups have 3-4 pets (sorc, cab, minstrel) plus a theurg. Body damage type. A Hib caster or Hib hybrid cannot practically run a Warden due to the extreme lack of utility a warden provides.

Mid advantages: Mids have an insta interrupt advantage with skalds and Bonedancers (the Body debuff still interrupts). Between the Bonedancer pets, the Bonedancer spamming insta lifetap and insta body debuff, the skald interupting, a mid group has a natural pushing advantage that is difficult to deal with as a Hib caster or Hib hybrid group. A good Pac Healer will start an 8v8 by insta stunning the bard. Every mid caster has root. Hammer is very popular due to conquer. A rooted or Conquere snared hib target will be left behind and assisted down on as the hib group is pushed.

Hib deficiencies: The Hib caster or Hib hybrid isn’t played because the Hib melee 4/4 group deals with these problems much more efficiently. A few problems that outline the struggle of the Hib caster group are listed below. These problems are outlined for a Hib Hybrid or Hib caster group running the following comp: (Bard, Nature Druid, Nurture Druid, Light Ment, Mana Enchanter, split spec Light/Mana Eld, Hero, Valewalker. The Valewalker could be swapped for another split spec Light/Mana Eld or another Light Ment). Wardens do not bring enough utility for a Hib caster group to be viable. The aoe root from the Nature druid is necessary for pulling as a caster comp. The damage provided by the Valewalker or Eld/Ment option for the 4th dps is necessary. Without 4 dps, the comp does not function well. Running a Bard/Warden/2 Druids for a caster group is not competitive.

A few problems or deficiencies in class spec and baseline spells are outlined below which contribute to the overall poor performance of the hib caster or hybrid comp:
1) Problem: Power consumption for base nukes.
Hibs rely mostly on base nukes, except for the Mentalist which has a level 45 Light 209 delve heat nuke. The Enchanter can only spec 22 in Light due to the requirement of having the level 49 Mana line heat debuff. The base nuke from Light costs a large amount of power since it is such a low spec, which is mandatory. When speced for 22 Light, only 20 baseline heat nukes can be cast. When speced higher in Light, about 30 baseline nukes can be cast.
Solution: Power efficiency should incorporate the +11 skill from spellcrafting and +skill from realm rank. This would allow for increased power efficiency. This is a quality of life change that can be applied across the board with little impact for large changes in the meta.

2) Problem: Lack of caster damage. Hibs do not have access to a 219 delve nuke (Runemaster and Wizard both have a 219 spec nuke).
Animists get a 225 delve bomber, but Animists are not viable due to the lack of Void Elds (bad spec) and the primary train is heat. The big damage caster is a Mentalist with a 209 heat nuke. Light Elds have a 209 cold nuke, which isn’t even used since it is so inefficient to debuff for two damage types. No other realm needs to debuff 2 damage types.
Albs have faster baseline nukes (2.5s body lifetap vs hib 2.6s heat and mid 2.6s cold). Albs also can spec higher into their baseline nuke, Cabalist at level 25 body and Sorcerers can spec level 28+ in Body. Some sorcs can split spec and have no variation with their baseline lifetap. Mids will have a Darkness Spiritmaster and a Darkness Bonedancer with no variation, but the bd has pets that do a considerable amount of damage on their own. Very few mids run a RC RM with a Dark RM assisting, but it is possible. They prefer the BD for interupts and dps over a Dark RM.
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

3) Problem: Lack of utility.
Enchanters are a debuff and nuke bot. Enchanter brings very little to the table outside of a debuff, stun, pet, and a spec light melee debuff and dehaste debuff which will never be higher than level 22. Pbaoe does happen in 8v8s to clear pets, but it isn’t a primary focus by any means. This means, the bulk of the utility comes from the level 49 heat debuff in the mana line. An entire spec is used just for a debuff. Runecarving Runemasters and Spirit Cabalists both bring stat debuffs (baseline dex and baseline str), nearsight, and root. Cabalists have a pet and runemasters have damage add and pbt. I am not accounting for speed as both alb and hib and mid have equal caster speed in a group when comparing caster comps or caster hybrid comps.
Mentalists have a decent amount of utility with a low spec level single target mez (high resist rate, even with Mastery of Focus), a modest spec heal, demez (which is critical to have a 2nd demez in the group), and a charmed pet. Mentalism is arguably the worst spec in the game, but a Mentalist is required to have 28 Mentalism for a demez.
Bard confuse is a 3.5s cast. Sorcerer confuse is a 2.5s cast.
Solutions:
Enchanters need another form of crowd control, such as a root, a mez, or nearsight. Enchanters are the only class in the game without a root or a mez. This needs to be added to the mana spec line. Damage add should be moved to baseline in Enchantments as Enchantments is arguably one of the worst speclines in the game.
Mentalists need to have demez moved lower in mentalism to allow for higher spec in light to charm a higher level pet. Mentalists need another utility (non damage) spell, such as amnesia.
Bard confuse needs to be a 2.5s cast. This was changed on the Live Server ages ago. A 3.5s confusion cannot keep up with 3.0s speed6 earth pets. The earth pets will reach the bard by the 2nd one and interrupt, even if the bard begins casting confusion on earth pets as soon as they come in range.

The Alb caster and Alb hybrid are currently overperforming in relation to the other realms. This is noticible with the amount of listed 8mans that run on Alb and the Alb overpopulation for the past several weeks.

In light of all this, we have more alb buffs. An Alb-only, yet another Friar buff, group wide endo reduction buff. Mercs get a rear snare, and Paladins get DD.

Mids get a massive thane buff with giving DD and an option for running a debuff for a thane.

Hibs get left in the dirt again. DD on a champ is helpful for the hib tank meta, which is already primary since Hib casters are so incredibly weak. The baseline energy nuke for Hib casters does litterally nothing to address the inherent weakness for Hib caster and Hib Hybrid groups.

If you are going to add a game breaking mechanic like group endo reduction, do it for all 3 realms or don't do it all.

Doesn’t the new baseline nuke additions address much of this? And maybe shouldn’t .

Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:10 PM by easytoremember

- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab

I don't think caba should get a baseline DD for Matter,
enchanter should not get a baseline DD for Mana,
bonedancer should not see a baseline DD in Suppression

The price of the goodies these specs offer is some amount of variance in their direct damage- caba boasts AoE DoT & AoE Disease, BD boasts healing pets & instant lifetap / instant body debuff, enchanter boasts self Heat debuff (+pet nuke) & PBAOE

In 8v8 they amount to nothing sure, elsewhere they are big

I'm not so opposed to mentalist baseline dd in Mana but do not like it much either

Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:16 PM by cmckenzie1452

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:28 PM
Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 4:08 PM
Hib caster meta changes (buff suggestions) December 2020 DAOC Phoenix
There is a distinct problem with the Hib caster meta. The Hib caster meta isn’t competitive for a variety of reasons. These suggestions are made when comparing Hib, Alb, and Mid caster or caster hybrid comps.

Alb advanatages: Albs have superior range with sorc 1875 range mez spam and 2000 range earth pet spam. Albs also have superior interrupts. Minstrels are perhaps the best interrupt class due to 4 insta interrupts, flute spammable mez, and a pet. Reavers also have access to pbaoe pulsing interrupts, insta dd and dot of which 2 levels can be cast on each. Also, most Alb groups have 3-4 pets (sorc, cab, minstrel) plus a theurg. Body damage type. A Hib caster or Hib hybrid cannot practically run a Warden due to the extreme lack of utility a warden provides.

Mid advantages: Mids have an insta interrupt advantage with skalds and Bonedancers (the Body debuff still interrupts). Between the Bonedancer pets, the Bonedancer spamming insta lifetap and insta body debuff, the skald interupting, a mid group has a natural pushing advantage that is difficult to deal with as a Hib caster or Hib hybrid group. A good Pac Healer will start an 8v8 by insta stunning the bard. Every mid caster has root. Hammer is very popular due to conquer. A rooted or Conquere snared hib target will be left behind and assisted down on as the hib group is pushed.

Hib deficiencies: The Hib caster or Hib hybrid isn’t played because the Hib melee 4/4 group deals with these problems much more efficiently. A few problems that outline the struggle of the Hib caster group are listed below. These problems are outlined for a Hib Hybrid or Hib caster group running the following comp: (Bard, Nature Druid, Nurture Druid, Light Ment, Mana Enchanter, split spec Light/Mana Eld, Hero, Valewalker. The Valewalker could be swapped for another split spec Light/Mana Eld or another Light Ment). Wardens do not bring enough utility for a Hib caster group to be viable. The aoe root from the Nature druid is necessary for pulling as a caster comp. The damage provided by the Valewalker or Eld/Ment option for the 4th dps is necessary. Without 4 dps, the comp does not function well. Running a Bard/Warden/2 Druids for a caster group is not competitive.

A few problems or deficiencies in class spec and baseline spells are outlined below which contribute to the overall poor performance of the hib caster or hybrid comp:
1) Problem: Power consumption for base nukes.
Hibs rely mostly on base nukes, except for the Mentalist which has a level 45 Light 209 delve heat nuke. The Enchanter can only spec 22 in Light due to the requirement of having the level 49 Mana line heat debuff. The base nuke from Light costs a large amount of power since it is such a low spec, which is mandatory. When speced for 22 Light, only 20 baseline heat nukes can be cast. When speced higher in Light, about 30 baseline nukes can be cast.
Solution: Power efficiency should incorporate the +11 skill from spellcrafting and +skill from realm rank. This would allow for increased power efficiency. This is a quality of life change that can be applied across the board with little impact for large changes in the meta.

2) Problem: Lack of caster damage. Hibs do not have access to a 219 delve nuke (Runemaster and Wizard both have a 219 spec nuke).
Animists get a 225 delve bomber, but Animists are not viable due to the lack of Void Elds (bad spec) and the primary train is heat. The big damage caster is a Mentalist with a 209 heat nuke. Light Elds have a 209 cold nuke, which isn’t even used since it is so inefficient to debuff for two damage types. No other realm needs to debuff 2 damage types.
Albs have faster baseline nukes (2.5s body lifetap vs hib 2.6s heat and mid 2.6s cold). Albs also can spec higher into their baseline nuke, Cabalist at level 25 body and Sorcerers can spec level 28+ in Body. Some sorcs can split spec and have no variation with their baseline lifetap. Mids will have a Darkness Spiritmaster and a Darkness Bonedancer with no variation, but the bd has pets that do a considerable amount of damage on their own. Very few mids run a RC RM with a Dark RM assisting, but it is possible. They prefer the BD for interupts and dps over a Dark RM.
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

3) Problem: Lack of utility.
Enchanters are a debuff and nuke bot. Enchanter brings very little to the table outside of a debuff, stun, pet, and a spec light melee debuff and dehaste debuff which will never be higher than level 22. Pbaoe does happen in 8v8s to clear pets, but it isn’t a primary focus by any means. This means, the bulk of the utility comes from the level 49 heat debuff in the mana line. An entire spec is used just for a debuff. Runecarving Runemasters and Spirit Cabalists both bring stat debuffs (baseline dex and baseline str), nearsight, and root. Cabalists have a pet and runemasters have damage add and pbt. I am not accounting for speed as both alb and hib and mid have equal caster speed in a group when comparing caster comps or caster hybrid comps.
Mentalists have a decent amount of utility with a low spec level single target mez (high resist rate, even with Mastery of Focus), a modest spec heal, demez (which is critical to have a 2nd demez in the group), and a charmed pet. Mentalism is arguably the worst spec in the game, but a Mentalist is required to have 28 Mentalism for a demez.
Bard confuse is a 3.5s cast. Sorcerer confuse is a 2.5s cast.
Solutions:
Enchanters need another form of crowd control, such as a root, a mez, or nearsight. Enchanters are the only class in the game without a root or a mez. This needs to be added to the mana spec line. Damage add should be moved to baseline in Enchantments as Enchantments is arguably one of the worst speclines in the game.
Mentalists need to have demez moved lower in mentalism to allow for higher spec in light to charm a higher level pet. Mentalists need another utility (non damage) spell, such as amnesia.
Bard confuse needs to be a 2.5s cast. This was changed on the Live Server ages ago. A 3.5s confusion cannot keep up with 3.0s speed6 earth pets. The earth pets will reach the bard by the 2nd one and interrupt, even if the bard begins casting confusion on earth pets as soon as they come in range.

The Alb caster and Alb hybrid are currently overperforming in relation to the other realms. This is noticible with the amount of listed 8mans that run on Alb and the Alb overpopulation for the past several weeks.

In light of all this, we have more alb buffs. An Alb-only, yet another Friar buff, group wide endo reduction buff. Mercs get a rear snare, and Paladins get DD.

Mids get a massive thane buff with giving DD and an option for running a debuff for a thane.

Hibs get left in the dirt again. DD on a champ is helpful for the hib tank meta, which is already primary since Hib casters are so incredibly weak. The baseline energy nuke for Hib casters does litterally nothing to address the inherent weakness for Hib caster and Hib Hybrid groups.

If you are going to add a game breaking mechanic like group endo reduction, do it for all 3 realms or don't do it all.
Doesn’t the new baseline nuke additions address much of this? And maybe shouldn’t .

No, it only helps mid. It helps mid hybrid REALLY well, actually.

It does nothing for hib. Using an eld to debuff would be an even worse scenario since you either lose all eld utility with red debuff, or lose all dps with yellow debuff and ment can't light nuke anymore. Hibs will still have to run the same heat train with chanter, which currently doesn't work well in 8v8.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 12:45 AM by gotwqqd

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 11:10 PM
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
I don't think caba should get a baseline DD for Matter,
enchanter should not get a baseline DD for Mana,
bonedancer should not see a baseline DD in Suppression

The price of the goodies these specs offer is some amount of variance in their direct damage- caba boasts AoE DoT & AoE Disease, BD boasts healing pets & instant lifetap / instant body debuff, enchanter boasts self Heat debuff (+pet nuke) & PBAOE

In 8v8 they amount to nothing sure, elsewhere they are big

I'm not so opposed to mentalist baseline dd in Mana but do not like it much either

Agree

What happen to choice and trade off ?

Fri 1 Jan 2021 1:08 AM by Tyrlaan

NeoMatrix wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 6:59 PM
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta

Curious on the thoughts behind adding additional options into lines that already have lots of play rather than adding these new nukes to lines that don't see a lot of play to encourage some shift in meta's/build options a bit more.. rather than what seems to be a buff to the lines that are already heavily used.
- light on eld
- mentalism on mentalist

Just curious on the thoughts here, interested in hearing how these changes were arrived at if you all are willing to share.

It´s just "the other" baseline for casters (Theurgists and Wizards Matter base DD missing due to Wizards then getting their self debuff in the same spec line I suppose).

It will see some use on Matter Cabs (who will still subspec Body over Spirit), Mana Ments, Mana Elds (slightly more DPS than their spec DD/snare due to cast speed) but most notably helps a couple Mid casters (SM Supp spec was missing good ranged DPS, SM Dark spec can self debuff nuke now, RM Supp spec is great utility yet subpar DPS but can join a Spirit debuff train now). Still a couple issues, Thane Energy debuff is still too random and I doubt people will build a group around debuffing Energy, BD just has all these pet issues (cap only allows to use lowlevel pets not the ones you specced for, commander without a ranged option running to suicide), subpar AoE DoT and Supp line is just a solo/subspec usually (though the 39/37 offers to join both debuff trains). I can imagine you won´t see many Dark debuff trains in Mid anymore and all these Moderna SMs will be put to use.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:07 AM by naglorand

honestly just restart the server back to base at this point with a few select features that are voted to be kept by original ppl who designed it(if they still around), including old frontiers, and reverting garbage changes to RAs and classes like friar. I think most people want the game how they remebered it (in all its glory), and as pop. numbers showed on release, that was indeed what was wanted. with server stability better now, and that "back to basics" attitude, this server could boom once again. keep going down this path and it's a lesser version of what the original DAOC devs did (and spoiled a golden egg), you have options of catering to the current brain dead playerbase who stuck around or think more universally

-this may be controversial but also reset RPs, and look into the idea of "seasons" and reseting RPs every 4-6 months or something like this, to keep peoiple interested as an uneven playing field is often used an excuse to not bother. 2 very popuilar games in recent history that are loot + character progression driven that do this (path of exile + escape from tarkov) have success with this and thtat event normally drives hte population up drasticaly which as of now the only events that drive up populatoin are short lived and seem few and far between, which is fine but imagine those with another event that drives population up

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:28 AM by Freudinio

While I think these changes seem fair across the board. I can't help but wonder who these changes are for?

It appears to me that these changes are aimed at a select few, yet vocal players.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:54 AM by ExcretusMaximus

naglorand wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:07 AM
honestly just restart the server back to base at this point with a few select features that are voted to be kept by original ppl who designed it(if they still around), including old frontiers, and reverting garbage changes to RAs and classes like friar. I think most people want the game how they remebered it (in all its glory), and as pop. numbers showed on release, that was indeed what was wanted. with server stability better now, and that "back to basics" attitude, this server could boom once again. keep going down this path and it's a lesser version of what the original DAOC devs did (and spoiled a golden egg), you have options of catering to the current brain dead playerbase who stuck around or think more universally

-this may be controversial but also reset RPs, and look into the idea of "seasons" and reseting RPs every 4-6 months or something like this, to keep peoiple interested as an uneven playing field is often used an excuse to not bother. 2 very popuilar games in recent history that are loot + character progression driven that do this in recent history (path of exile + escape from tarkov) have success with this and thtat event normally drives hte population up drasticaly which as of now the only events that drive up populatoin are short lived and seem few and far between, which is fine but imagine those with another event that drives population up

You clearly do not understand even the basics of server life cycles, and as such your ideas will rightfully be ignored (hopefully).

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:55 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:28 AM
While I think these changes seem fair across the board. I can't help but wonder who these changes are for?

It appears to me that these changes are aimed at a select few, yet vocal players.

Exactly who they said they were for in their announcement?

The 8v8 crowd.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 3:09 AM by naglorand

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:54 AM
You clearly do not understand even the basics of server life cycles, and as such your ideas will rightfully be ignored (hopefully).

I never said I did, just offering an opinion, they can do with it whatever they like and it clearly struck a nerve with you so maybe it's something they should consider seeing as the ppl like u get instantly butthurt at the thought of it.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 4:55 AM by dfblohm70

This may or not be the place to post as I could not find the original post for this but.... Paladins do not need the extra boost with speed. They are supposed to similar to the Shaman of Midgard but is much better suited for combat. Shamans do not have any styles and only 3 second casts that have timers for recast but have endo. Paladins have endo and can fight. Complaints of damage are irrelevant, if a group wants endo they either have to have a potion or paladins. That is the trade off. If a Midgard group wants more damage in a group they use potions for endo and do not invite shaman. Which in most cases does not happen. Mids usually give up the extra damage for endo. Should be no different for Albs. Midgard is nerfed as it is and to buff Albion is like debuffing Midgard more.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 5:10 AM by opossum12

dfblohm70 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 4:55 AM
This may or not be the place to post as I could not find the original post for this but.... Paladins do not need the extra boost with speed. They are supposed to similar to the Shaman of Midgard but is much better suited for combat. Shamans do not have any styles and only 3 second casts that have timers for recast but have endo. Paladins have endo and can fight. Complaints of damage are irrelevant, if a group wants endo they either have to have a potion or paladins. That is the trade off. If a Midgard group wants more damage in a group they use potions for endo and do not invite shaman. Which in most cases does not happen. Mids usually give up the extra damage for endo. Should be no different for Albs. Midgard is nerfed as it is and to buff Albion is like debuffing Midgard more.

Do you realize that the shaman is the spec buffer of midgard?

Wtf is wrong with ppl in this forum

Fri 1 Jan 2021 8:36 AM by Cash

I think almost all of these changes are good for the competitive balance of 8v8 fights and I think most of those complaining probably don't represent those who fight in competitive 8v8's where each advantage is felt in full. For example, the comment that DD is worthless demonstrates a lack of understanding of the role of a peel tank. DD is absolutely essential against the very strong hib 4x4's or mid tankers.

The debuff nerf helped mid/hib tanker/hybrids compete with alb cheese groups, but it also simultaneously made mid/hib caster groups less viable then they already were. The new baseline nukes give an opportunity for mid caster groups to take advantage of the amazing utility in the Supp line. My only concern is that the supp love only matters if the power consumption on the nuke is low. Running red pbt/red ns and baseline nuking with no variation is amazing but very power draining. The comment that BD's are a shell of themselves is only true from a rupt perspective due to the LT recast nerf. The debuff nerf was counteracted by the LT boost. If you're worried about pet dmg lowered from the debuff nerf you're probably farming not fighting 8v8 where the ABS and higher lifedrain matter more than pet dmg.

I love DD being awarded to Pally/Champ/Thane. Even though this server already gave hybrid love, this will make it even more viable. Against tank trains, DD is a must. The merc love was absolutely necessary. Those that say a melee snare on the opening round isn't valuable for dps aren't using melee snares enough imo. It is the best form of CC in the game. I do agree that adding a high DPS chain to the merc would make them more comparable to other light tanks. As a primarily Midgard 8 man player, the idea of adding snare to the LA line makes no sense to me. People complain that they HAVE to use hammer. It's the best melee weapon line in the game from a utility standpoint, just be happy that you have access to it and move on imo.

All that being said, I think part of the appeal of a 3 realm server is the differentiation of realms. So rather than giving all realms the same things, I think a wiser move is to buff the uniqueness of realms. There's no reason to try other setups/realms if they're basically the same. Reducing Animist casting speed would be an example of boosting the uniqueness of a realm. In addition, I think it's also ok if there are classes, or at least specs, that are more suited for a style of gameplay. Animist/Necro being good at farming, SM being great at solo, reavers being OP in smallman, Svg being great in 8 man but not good solo are OK circumstances imo. Again, I think as long as each realm has balanced 8v8 setups, balanced zerg v zerg action assuming ROUGHLY same numbers, and each realm has balanced stealth/visi solo classes, then goal accomplished. Maybe give up making Pally an 8 man class and make them a 1v1 God. Boost the hell out of Merc dmg if you want alb tankers. However, any changes made to alb melee would have to be monitored closely because the Necro debuff could quickly become OP.

Sorry for the novel. Overall, love the changes for 8v8, especially for mid/alb. Still think hib tanker way stronger than hib caster.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:05 AM by Egonek

good changes.

but a Wizard is still useless in a 8er grp. he dont have any matter single nuke. and his utility is to low to invite him in a 8er grp. maybe give him a 179delve 35% snare 3s Matter single nuke like Mana Eld? Dont know.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:48 AM by gotwqqd

Egonek wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:05 AM
good changes.

but a Wizard is still useless in a 8er grp. he dont have any matter single nuke. and his utility is to low to invite him in a 8er grp. maybe give him a 179delve 35% snare 3s Matter single nuke like Mana Eld? Dont know.

He can debuff either cold or heat for his sub spec line...just like a chanter

Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:26 AM by nadon

Tbh i like the changes here, but its still not gonna do the friar Much help, they need 1or 2 difrent grp heals to be able to atleast behelp full as a cleric in keeps/tower/Los fights from hills and so on, im playing one, and it suxs when My fellow players run over a small stump or what ever it is, means i lose em. And I know ppl Will say your just not in the right position, but you just cant be there All the time.

Imm that would mean more friars in rvr grps. Just My thought ☺️ keep up the good work

Fri 1 Jan 2021 12:32 PM by DJ2000

Happy new year, everyone!

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
Changes aimed at the viability of the Alb Tanker / Hybrid Setup
1. The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.
2. For Merc only, penumbra (currently alternative follow up to shadow's edge, a back opener) will become a back opener with a snare component and have its values adjusted appropriately.

1. Why no Mana cost? No, I take the question back, as i know why it it has no mana cost. I dont like the decision at all. I really dont like giving out stuff for "free". Handing out "Brainless" Abilities, where you never have to make any decision as to when/where/why or just how long to use them. Just activate it once you log in and never bother even thinking about it again until you log off. Not a fan of the no mana cost part.
2. Giving them access to snare is a MUST to have Alb-Tank be viable. I am 50/50 if its should be in DW or a baseline Weapon. The only reason to not have it in pierce/slash/crush is to prevent the minstrel to access it as well. All other melee classes have already back/anytimer snare anyway. We will see, but i guess DW is fine.

Overall: Seems positive, gj.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
And something that supports both:
Paladin, Champion and Thane will receive access to the Dashing Defense RA

This is actually huge. It will favor the Champion the least, when compared to the Paladin and Thane, but still a big boost.
vs Enemy Tanker 1. Paladin, 2. Thane, 3. Champion
vs Enemy Hybrid 1. Thane, 2. Paladin, 3. Champion

Overall: Big move, gj.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
Changes aimed at the viability of Mid / Hib Caster and Hybrid Setups
Alternative baseline nukes will be added
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
This also means a minor reshuffling of some of the resist debuffs, an example here would be the yellow hib eld energy debuff which will become available a couple spec levels earlier as well as a duration reduction of the relevant debuffs in each realm.

Mixed feelings about this, even though i like the idea behind it.
As the example of the Eld was mentioned, lets stay Hib with this one.
Currently, the Energy yellow debuff is at 39 (49 for red one) in the "Void Magic Line", and with a couple of levels i guess you mean 36 (47 for Red one) prolly (cant be to low).
So the thought process in this example would be obviously:
- Make the Eld Void ~47/ Mana ~24-26 / Light 10+ or split Void ~36 / Mana(Light) ~32-38 / Light(Mana) ~10-16 (which i highly doubt anyone would do)
- Enchanter are basically all Mana spec anyway, and with this change they will remain "Mana" for all eternity.
--> Grp setup would have to decide to either go Energy or Heat (depends on Eld spec).
>Both times the Mentalist could slot in as a DPS/Demezzer, but only Heat would grant them a Pet.
>"Pet"-wise, the Energy setup is, again, weaker overall, as the ench pet is heat based = no/less synergy.
>The Utility loss from the "Light spec" for both Eld/Ment cannot be compensated by the Eldt's "Void spec" and/or the "Mana Spec" of the Mentalist, so overall less/weaker utility for the setup. Mentalist doesn't gain anything new in "Mentalism" line with this change, as the Forced 28 for de-mezz remains.
> 2x cold based Bolts with 1875 Range that hit for around 200-500 combined would give an option to rupt and pressure at the same time, when NS has already been applied.
= Heat > Energy for the Hib Trio Eld-Ench-Ment.

What else?
1. As a Duo the Eld-Ench could potentially switch between Energy or Heat in a hybrid setup in every fight. f.e.: If the Alb grp lacks a Friar go Heat. And go Energy vs Mids against yellow/blue Energy timers.
2. "Void" cold based spells cannot be utilized, as the Ench and Ment lack any cold based spells.
3. Enchanter "Mana spec" is now one of the most dominant spec lines in the Game.
4. Out of this Trio, the Mentalist gains the least with this change. Even though it loosens the Light-for-RvR/Mana-for-Zerg life of a Mentalist, as the "Mana spec" can be 8man and Zerg now.
5. No "help" for the lesser run "Body" variant with Eld-Ani with this change. There might be more Void-spec Elds running around maybe, but that's about it.
6. High RR Grps could go both Heat/Energy as a Trio, which is actually kinda frightening.

Won't try to break down the other realms, to tired atm.

Overall: optimistic for the rest of the changes.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
There are still lots of ongoing discussions, the next set(s) of changes will aim to address paladin and thane viability as well as some more help for certain hib caster / hybrid or possibly even niche caster setups in general. There is no ETA so far, while it can be for the most part agreed that problems exist, opinions diverge on their extent and potential solutions.

Keep em coming. Some will hit, some will miss. I encourage everyone involved to not be afraid to push something, but also dial something back when its not good enough.

Wisdom of the Ancients:
There can always be an improvement for someone or something.
Not every change will result in an improvement.
But without any change, there can never be an improvement.
If something or someone could not or didn't need to be improved, you will only know once it was changed.
- Every fortune cookie ever.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 12:48 PM by thirian24

dfblohm70 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 4:55 AM
This may or not be the place to post as I could not find the original post for this but.... Paladins do not need the extra boost with speed. They are supposed to similar to the Shaman of Midgard but is much better suited for combat. Shamans do not have any styles and only 3 second casts that have timers for recast but have endo. Paladins have endo and can fight. Complaints of damage are irrelevant, if a group wants endo they either have to have a potion or paladins. That is the trade off. If a Midgard group wants more damage in a group they use potions for endo and do not invite shaman. Which in most cases does not happen. Mids usually give up the extra damage for endo. Should be no different for Albs. Midgard is nerfed as it is and to buff Albion is like debuffing Midgard more.

Lol WTF?? 🤡

These are the same MFers voting on shit. 🤣

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 12:32 PM
1. Why no Mana cost? No, I take the question back, as i know why it it has no mana cost. I dont like the decision at all. I really dont like giving out stuff for "free". Handing out "Brainless" Abilities, where you never have to make any decision as to when/where/why or just how long to use them. Just activate it once you log in and never bother even thinking about it again until you log off. Not a fan of the no mana cost part.

The obvious alternative would have been to keep it a timed buff as it is now making it even stronger than that.

It is intended to be always active yet with a range restriction component, instead of a pulse it could just as well have become a conc buff with range restriction like the mid endu buff but that would either have meant a meaningless conc cost or buff problems for the intended setup aka cleric + friar.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:54 PM by CowwoC

All of this feels like opening Pandora's box tbh.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 5:39 PM by jlxscholar

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
After some discussions with the new player council, the first set of changes will go in tomorrow, on the 1st.

Changes aimed at the viability of the Alb Tanker / Hybrid Setup
The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.
For Merc only, penumbra (currently alternative follow up to shadow's edge, a back opener) will become a back opener with a snare component and have its values adjusted appropriately.

Changes aimed at the viability of Mid / Hib Caster and Hybrid Setups
Alternative baseline nukes will be added
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
This also means a minor reshuffling of some of the resist debuffs, an example here would be the yellow hib eld energy debuff which will become available a couple spec levels earlier as well as a duration reduction of the relevant debuffs in each realm.

And something that supports both:
Paladin, Champion and Thane will receive access to the Dashing Defense RA

There are still lots of ongoing discussions, the next set(s) of changes will aim to address paladin and thane viability as well as some more help for certain hib caster / hybrid or possibly even niche caster setups in general. There is no ETA so far, while it can be for the most part agreed that problems exist, opinions diverge on their extent and potential solutions.

I'd really like to see minstrels ability to purge themselves and pets removed. As someone who played one to rr5, its kind of silly not needing purge while also having insane DPS. It's worse when its regular for 2 minstrels to group together.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 6:46 PM by Delegator

Kind of ironic that the supposedly sub-par secondary specs for casters are getting added abilities, but the Necro Painworking spec, which was broken by the changes needed to address the mass plague from the HOH boss, is being intentionally not fixed at all.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 6:57 PM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 2:30 PM
The obvious alternative would have been to keep it a timed buff as it is now making it even stronger than that.

It is intended to be always active yet with a range restriction component, instead of a pulse it could just as well have become a conc buff with range restriction like the mid endu buff but that would either have meant a meaningless conc cost or buff problems for the intended setup aka cleric + friar.

As i said, i get it.

Changing it to a Conc buff would result in several disadvantages, the conc costs/management being the obvious ones.
This is supposed to help the Friar, not confront him with more problems.

Even if it was a conc buff with meaningless conc costs and range restriction, it would practically be the same as an Aura. No gain in that aspect.
But, a conc buff version would make the Friars life actually harder than a Aura version, additionally to the above mentioned reason(s).

You did mention the Sham Endu buff earlier, so let's assume this:
As long as the Friar is alive (same goes for the shaman), the effect of the spell would be the same either way, regardless if Aura or conc buff.
But the moment the Friar (or shaman) drop during the fight, it gets a bit worse for the Friar.
As of now, both have to rebuff 3-4 Buffs for each Team member. Friar 2-3 Base and the spec AF. Sham the 2-3 spec and the Endu buff.
So, if this would be a conc based buff and if the Friar would drop mid-fight, he would have to rebuff 4-5 buffs per member + selfbuffs. That is more than any other class currently in the game.
Which would make the Friar the target no.1 for every Enemy, every fight.
It would basically be a 7vs8 once the Friar drops, even if the Friar gets rezzed. The Time alone he would have to re-invest into re-applying the benefits/buffs of having a Friar in the setup, while still moving/curing and Healing, would put the Friar in a bad spot for every 8man, and a bad experience for every Friar player.
Unlike the sham or the Bard, the Friar is supposed to be the 2nd Healer of the Grp, not just a "buffer" (yes i know the sham is nnot just buffer). There is no 2nd Cleric(Healer or Bard) or a Warden to rely on.
As mentioned before, while it being Aura/Conc-based would be practically the same as long as the friar is alive, it would turn immediately sour if the Friar gets dropped.
So it being an Aura, that can siimply be switch On (cast/instant), for the Grp makes this Role and the life of a Friar in general way more playable and manageable.
It is just less of a burden on a class that has already issues even getting a role in a 8man.

On the other side of the spectrum, just as you mentioned, as a "timed buff" it would be waaay to "beneficial/powerful".
Dropping the Friar would basically mean nothing, as the Buff would remain, unlike a sham (or even a Bard to some extent). So yeah, not the way to go.

Conclusion:
To apply this buff in the most helpful manner for the friar, the Aura approach is simply the best approach. I am more than aware of that.
Apart for it being less code to implement (ok. Its mostly copy&paste, but anyway...), its just gameplay-wise the best decision, as to how to make this spell work for the Friar. The solution itself is fine.

The only thing i don't like about it, is the fact "it" being for "free".

Fri 1 Jan 2021 7:45 PM by Morloth

Maybe a dumb question, but new player, and poor midgard caster here. When you say the changes are effective today (the 1st) when should I expect to see them? Is there some server reset time when these types of changes show up on both the server and the char planner?

Fri 1 Jan 2021 8:01 PM by

Uthred

Use ingame the command /servernews. It will always tell you the latest Patch Notes. About 90 mins ago there was a reboot and the changes got in. You can find them on the forum also in the News section.

Todays Patch Notes --> https://forum.playphoenix.online/server/news/27998-2021-01-01-friday#p153219

Fri 1 Jan 2021 9:27 PM by Sagz

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
After some discussions with the new player council, the first set of changes will go in tomorrow, on the 1st.

Changes aimed at the viability of the Alb Tanker / Hybrid Setup
The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.
For Merc only, penumbra (currently alternative follow up to shadow's edge, a back opener) will become a back opener with a snare component and have its values adjusted appropriately.

Changes aimed at the viability of Mid / Hib Caster and Hybrid Setups
Alternative baseline nukes will be added
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
This also means a minor reshuffling of some of the resist debuffs, an example here would be the yellow hib eld energy debuff which will become available a couple spec levels earlier as well as a duration reduction of the relevant debuffs in each realm.

And something that supports both:
Paladin, Champion and Thane will receive access to the Dashing Defense RA

There are still lots of ongoing discussions, the next set(s) of changes will aim to address paladin and thane viability as well as some more help for certain hib caster / hybrid or possibly even niche caster setups in general. There is no ETA so far, while it can be for the most part agreed that problems exist, opinions diverge on their extent and potential solutions.

I am wondering who came up with these ideas, at least for the caster.

The mid caster - thats a nice upgrade, supp rm, supp bd, and dark/sup sm would be nice to run, thats a nice upgrade.

The hib caster - not sure how this is an upgrade? eld will now have to spec void, not to mention for 49 to get the last debuff vs 48 in the other realms, thus losing a lot of utility with the disease from mana and NS from the light. then run a mana ment, to lose pet and maintain demezz? and mana chanter there is no change, and sustain and already viable debuff why not stick with heat train, to me you are just swapping the MA in that setup and getting less utility and less damage. Would be better off running 2 eld and a ment probably, but it still not better than the heat debuff.

The alb caster - As in the hib, you are just swapping the MA around, can grab a matter/body cab which does add utility not having to spec in spirit but have to add a wizzy for the debuff, cause lets be honest no sorc is going to get rid of mind completely for a debuff, especially not being able to nuke with no points in the matter line. And really the wizzy will have the same NS as the cab, so having 2 NS?, but will be the only caster in the group not using the debuff in a group. They will just keep the body train cause it is better so really add no upgrade or viable option other than trying for fun.

I get trying some versatility, but the only change is mid gaining utility with no sacrifice in damage, the other realms have to choose between damage and utility.

To help this maybe,

For the mids, keep it, its good

For the hibs, make the spec nuke in the light eld line heat instead of cold, then you can choose between faster cast or more damage between the 2 spells. Or add NS to the mentalist.

For the albs, add the base matter nuke the Thuerg earth spec line? maybe, not sure really what to do with alb, you sacrifice so much for leaving the body train, nothing IMHO would be worth it. I will say this, you are a special individual for going body/matter for a sorc.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:28 PM by Nephamael

Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

I rly like this idea.

There is also another option:

Add cold baseline dd for everyone, then cold dd assist can happen (menta using cold base dd and eld using cold spec dd). Or add body nuke for everyone then body assist can happen with anis.

Right now energy is not a viable option for hib as the debuffer would be a voideld - a elsewise as weak specline as rc for rm. And the Voideld can't use his own cold dd in the void line but has to use a line he puts 0-5 spec points into for his energy nuke. Or he would have to spec void/mana and end up having no nearsight, just like rc/dark rm, the currently weakest caster setup in the game.

------------
Whatever happens, if you don't buff powerpool/reduce the powercost of baseline nukes (by 25%+) no new castersetups or hybridsetups will appear or stay, simply because the power comsume is 2 high to win vs any good group, that simply outheals or out rezzes your powerbar twice and then the fight is over cause your casters are oom.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:35 PM by Tyrlaan

Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 9:27 PM
I am wondering who came up with these ideas, at least for the caster.

A couple casters got another option for baseline damage which could be higher spec (Matter Cab, Mana Ment, Supp SM/RM/BD).

Even if people were to switch the damage type of their assist train, none of the new baseline DDs has a damage type with a spec DD in the respective realm. Body, Light and Dark still offer better dps (LT cast time, spec DDs) off a debuff. It allows for many more different setups though, sometimes with more utility.

For Hibs it means the Heat debuff train (with all the utility on the respective specs) is as strong as ever but there´s more synergy now with Void Eld debuffing for themselves and every other caster in Hib (including Animists and VWs). But Hib casters (just like Alb casters) also didn´t need much help, this change helps Mid casters the most. To assume it was to help all realms equally is a false expectation.

With Supp SMs getting better ranged dps (possibly debuffed by their Dark SM buddy) we´ll see more PBAE and more pets in RvR on Mid side. And once there are a couple Mid caster groups going, we´ll see more people spec Supp RM for the PBT, NS, snare nukes instead of everybody going Dark for the damadd to all those tank groups.

Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:56 PM by Tyrlaan

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:28 PM
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

As if Hib didn´t have enough spec DDs to use after a Heat debuff, you want to see it added to Light Elds too so that a 4+4 group would have 1 base and 3 spec DDs off a debuff? I mean c´mon. This change is to allow to stray from the current debuff assist trains not to make them even stronger.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:03 AM by gotwqqd

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:28 PM
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.

I rly like this idea.

There is also another option:

Add cold baseline dd for everyone, then cold dd assist can happen (menta using cold base dd and eld using cold spec dd). Or add body nuke for everyone then body assist can happen with anis.

Right now energy is not a viable option for hib as the debuffer would be a voideld - a elsewise as weak specline as rc for rm. And the Voideld can't use his own cold dd in the void line but has to use a line he puts 0-5 spec points into for his energy nuke. Or he would have to spec void/mana and end up having no nearsight, just like rc/dark rm, the currently weakest caster setup in the game.

------------
Whatever happens, if you don't buff powerpool/reduce the powercost of baseline nukes (by 25%+) no new castersetups or hybridsetups will appear or stay, simply because the power comsume is 2 high to win vs any good group, that simply outheals or out rezzes your powerbar twice and then the fight is over cause your casters are oom.

Just give everyone all the spells
Why should you need to make a choice?

Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:30 AM by Sagz

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:35 PM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 9:27 PM
I am wondering who came up with these ideas, at least for the caster.
A couple casters got another option for baseline damage which could be higher spec (Matter Cab, Mana Ment, Supp SM/RM/BD).

Even if people were to switch the damage type of their assist train, none of the new baseline DDs has a damage type with a spec DD in the respective realm. Body, Light and Dark still offer better dps (LT cast time, spec DDs) off a debuff. It allows for many more different setups though, sometimes with more utility.

For Hibs it means the Heat debuff train (with all the utility on the respective specs) is as strong as ever but there´s more synergy now with Void Eld debuffing for themselves and every other caster in Hib (including Animists and VWs). But Hib casters (just like Alb casters) also didn´t need much help, this change helps Mid casters the most. To assume it was to help all realms equally is a false expectation.

With Supp SMs getting better ranged dps (possibly debuffed by their Dark SM buddy) we´ll see more PBAE and more pets in RvR on Mid side. And once there are a couple Mid caster groups going, we´ll see more people spec Supp RM for the PBT, NS, snare nukes instead of everybody going Dark for the damadd to all those tank groups.

WTF are you talking about the hibs heat debuff train got better with the eld going void. You lose NS, d/q debuff and the damage is lower than if he was light and assisting the chanter.

Yea, if you read my entire post, you would see the mid upgrade was good, I agree, but you left the alb and hib side with no change, just wasted unusable specs.

You cant blindly try to implement something in all realms the same, the diversity of the classes/realms wont allow that.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:31 AM by Sagz

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:56 PM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 10:28 PM
Solution: Move the eld spec light nuke to level 47 and change the damage type to heat. This would eliminate the need to debuff 2 damage types and would make sense as all other light spec nukes (Enchanter and Mentalist) are heat.
As if Hib didn´t have enough spec DDs to use after a Heat debuff, you want to see it added to Light Elds too so that a 4+4 group would have 1 base and 3 spec DDs off a debuff? I mean c´mon. This change is to allow to stray from the current debuff assist trains not to make them even stronger.

Then why change anything to alb and hib? It did nothing for those realm, just buffed mid casters by allowing more versatility. just another change not thought out entirely.

besides, if you think the chanter/eld/menty, with the spec nuke in the light line for Eld, will out damage/versatility over the suppbd/suprm/darksm, or the cabby/sorc/sorc or cab you are crazy

the eld is already casting the baseline heat nuke in that situation, its not that drastic

Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:51 AM by skipari

the additional base nukes look good so far, would say does what was expected and gives some more hybrid/caster options for mid/hib at least. but i'm suprised that the new 179 delve has 30 power cost instead of 33 like other baseline nukes with same delve.

But what i'm a bit concerned about is the range of the friar chant. 2k seem a bit off compared to the shaman since basically endu5 is on a nearly equal level to endu3 pot + reduction. Just without concentration costs, no recast need if target dies, and far less risk for the friar itself since he can stay in comfortable range. Also it somewhat replaces the main selling point of the paladin in tank groups. While thats ok in general, i fear what the paladin probably gets in future to to make it worth a shot for a hybrid/melee group.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:06 AM by Tyrlaan

Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:30 AM
WTF are you talking about the hibs heat debuff train got better with the eld going void. You lose NS, d/q debuff and the damage is lower than if he was light and assisting the chanter.

Yea, if you read my entire post, you would see the mid upgrade was good, I agree, but you left the alb and hib side with no change, just wasted unusable specs.

You cant blindly try to implement something in all realms the same, the diversity of the classes/realms wont allow that.

WTF are you talking about, to start about the same unconstructive way you are. The Hib Heat debuff train is completely unchanged and still good, so I don´t know why you would even bring Void Elds to the argument. However, a Void debuff train can drop the Enchanter and include a tangler Animist which is great for kite caster groups (it only gets better with 3-4 Ichors). A group can have more than 1 Eld btw, like one who´s MA (Void/Mana) and one for the utility (Light/Mana or Mana/Light) to hop on the assist when a target is called... Alb´s Spirit spec offers less than Void spec does yet somehow people managed to build debuff trains off it... that would require to be a more rational person though.

Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:31 AM
besides, if you think the chanter/eld/menty, with the spec nuke in the light line for Eld, will out damage/versatility over the suppbd/suprm/darksm, or the cabby/sorc/sorc or cab you are crazy

I´m pretty sure you´re the crazy one here to deny the nice package the Heat debuff train is utility and damage wise (or even call for an upgrade to that damage).

Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:29 AM by Sagz

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:06 AM
Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:30 AM
WTF are you talking about the hibs heat debuff train got better with the eld going void. You lose NS, d/q debuff and the damage is lower than if he was light and assisting the chanter.

Yea, if you read my entire post, you would see the mid upgrade was good, I agree, but you left the alb and hib side with no change, just wasted unusable specs.

You cant blindly try to implement something in all realms the same, the diversity of the classes/realms wont allow that.

WTF are you talking about, to start about the same unconstructive way you are. The Hib Heat debuff train is completely unchanged and still good, so I don´t know why you would even bring Void Elds to the argument. However, a Void debuff train can drop the Enchanter and include a tangler Animist which is great for caster groups. A group can have more than 1 Eld btw, like one who´s MA (Void/Mana) and one for the utility (Light/Mana or Mana/Light) to hop on the assist when a target is called... Alb´s Spirit spec offers less than Void spec does yet somehow people managed to build debuff trains off it... that would require to be a more rational person though.

Do you even read peoples posts?

This is what you said "For Hibs it means the Heat debuff train (with all the utility on the respective specs) is as strong as ever but there´s more synergy now with Void Eld debuffing for themselves"

And that does not even make sense, i wasn't claiming it was weak, i was claiming the change really did not add much to the group the way it did on mid, same with albs, no one is going to run an energy train or matter train on those realms respectively. The mid change was good, adds more utility that they had with the cold train.

Spirit cab + split spec sorc will dominate more than your eld/eld in their groups respectivly, thats not even comparing apples to apples

I do not even think you read my initial post, just the first sentence, and that's on you.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 6:46 AM by Tyrlaan

Sagz wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:31 AM
Then why change anything to alb and hib? It did nothing for those realm, just buffed mid casters by allowing more versatility. just another change not thought out entirely.

I even spelled it out for you:

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Jan 2021 11:35 PM
But Hib casters (just like Alb casters) also didn´t need much help, this change helps Mid casters the most. To assume it was to help all realms equally is a false expectation.

In Alb it´s not going to change much because Sorcs have zero reason to (sub)spec Matter. It will help the single (i.e. not in a debuff train) Matter Cab get a slightly better nuke.

In Hib it allows for more group compositions to include Animists. It´s not better than the Heat debuff train but different. It also helps the single (i.e. not in a debuff train) Mana Menta get some non-DoT single target dps. That you don´t expect people to run 2 Elds (one MA, one with Light for the utility) is your prerogative. I disagree. Void on an Eld does offer more than Spirit does on a Cab (full delve Dex debuffs for one). The extra utility on a Cab only comes from subspeccing or trispeccing. Just like it would on a Void Eld who would still have the AE disease in Mana at its disposal (or a grey NS like many of the Cabs) and mostly be the MA.

And it helps Mid casters the most. Mid casters needed such a change the most.

So to conclude, I think it is actually very well thought-out. To start from "why change something when it does nothing (or very little) for realm A and B i.e. doesn´t affect all realms equally" is wrong to begin with.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:26 PM by Valaraukar

Nice changes for the baseline DD, even if for BDs it is not gift so great since the usual spec is Hybrid dark/supp so can use the dark dd in the cold debuff train, I believe that no one is going to spec full supp due to the LT recast nerf and the pets ridicolous heals. Fix the pet management and casting time, give back LT to 4 secs as it must be and finally the BD could be again an useful caster in many occasion, not only a twf bot or a tanking caster for soloing. Much better for Supp RM and SM since they already have many utils on supp line (confusion,ns, pbt, mezz/demezz, pbaoe).

Dashing defense for thanes is just a joke. After det 9, purge 3, moc 1, static tempest 3 one must be at least RR7 to even think about getting DD, with no other passives at all. Just absurd and a waste of points when you have a much better peeler in the warrior who will always have DD.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:18 PM by opossum12

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:26 PM
Nice changes for the baseline DD, even if for BDs it is not gift so great since the usual spec is Hybrid dark/supp so can use the dark dd in the cold debuff train, I believe that no one is going to spec full supp due to the LT recast nerf and the pets ridicolous heals. Fix the pet management and casting time, give back LT to 4 secs as it must be and finally the BD could be again an useful caster in many occasion, not only a twf bot or a tanking caster for soloing. Much better for Supp RM and SM since they already have many utils on supp line (confusion,ns, pbt, mezz/demezz, pbaoe).

Dashing defense for thanes is just a joke. After det 9, purge 3, moc 1, static tempest 3 one must be at least RR7 to even think about getting DD, with no other passives at all. Just absurd and a waste of points when you have a much better peeler in the warrior who will always have DD.

The change to supp is so that you can now run a caster train with pbt and red nearsight. Full Supp BD also has some pretty good utility compared to dark. Doesn't change much for hib/alb but for mid it's a nice buff

Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:39 PM by Valaraukar

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:18 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:26 PM
Nice changes for the baseline DD, even if for BDs it is not gift so great since the usual spec is Hybrid dark/supp so can use the dark dd in the cold debuff train, I believe that no one is going to spec full supp due to the LT recast nerf and the pets ridicolous heals. Fix the pet management and casting time, give back LT to 4 secs as it must be and finally the BD could be again an useful caster in many occasion, not only a twf bot or a tanking caster for soloing. Much better for Supp RM and SM since they already have many utils on supp line (confusion,ns, pbt, mezz/demezz, pbaoe).

Dashing defense for thanes is just a joke. After det 9, purge 3, moc 1, static tempest 3 one must be at least RR7 to even think about getting DD, with no other passives at all. Just absurd and a waste of points when you have a much better peeler in the warrior who will always have DD.

The change to supp is so that you can now run a caster train with pbt and red nearsight. Full Supp BD also has some pretty good utility compared to dark. Doesn't change much for hib/alb but for mid it's a nice buff

I know that is a good change for SM/RM, as I've said, but it's not so good for BDs. That's all.
What are the utilities on BD supp line? The focus aoe snare? The healers pets are crap, they will stay mezz/root forever, going out of range and have a casting time of centuries to land a crappy 200hp heal, and you cannot even use the commander to rupt because it will be killed in 3 seconds and all the other pets with him. At least with hybrid spec you can use some ranged pet to try to rupt (same issue about mezz/root, one will last for minutes so basically they are out of the fight since the very beginning) or to land a disease on someone. If you really want to increase BD damage the base supp DD should be on Body, so you can choose if you want to go full dark for heavier debuff but less base damage on the dd, full supp for higher base dmg but lower debuff or hybrid with yellow debuff and good base damage on base DD.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 4:28 PM by joshisanonymous

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:39 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:18 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:26 PM
Nice changes for the baseline DD, even if for BDs it is not gift so great since the usual spec is Hybrid dark/supp so can use the dark dd in the cold debuff train, I believe that no one is going to spec full supp due to the LT recast nerf and the pets ridicolous heals. Fix the pet management and casting time, give back LT to 4 secs as it must be and finally the BD could be again an useful caster in many occasion, not only a twf bot or a tanking caster for soloing. Much better for Supp RM and SM since they already have many utils on supp line (confusion,ns, pbt, mezz/demezz, pbaoe).

Dashing defense for thanes is just a joke. After det 9, purge 3, moc 1, static tempest 3 one must be at least RR7 to even think about getting DD, with no other passives at all. Just absurd and a waste of points when you have a much better peeler in the warrior who will always have DD.

The change to supp is so that you can now run a caster train with pbt and red nearsight. Full Supp BD also has some pretty good utility compared to dark. Doesn't change much for hib/alb but for mid it's a nice buff

I know that is a good change for SM/RM, as I've said, but it's not so good for BDs. That's all.
What are the utilities on BD supp line? The focus aoe snare? The healers pets are crap, they will stay mezz/root forever, going out of range and have a casting time of centuries to land a crappy 200hp heal, and you cannot even use the commander to rupt because it will be killed in 3 seconds and all the other pets with him. At least with hybrid spec you can use some ranged pet to try to rupt (same issue about mezz/root, one will last for minutes so basically they are out of the fight since the very beginning) or to land a disease on someone. If you really want to increase BD damage the base supp DD should be on Body, so you can choose if you want to go full dark for heavier debuff but less base damage on the dd, full supp for higher base dmg but lower debuff or hybrid with yellow debuff and good base damage on base DD.

Not that I think supp BDs are better for 8man than a split spec, but there are a couple advantages to full supp. One is the higher group absorb buff, which is either trippled or at least 50% higher. That might not be a big deal even in a tank group, but it's something. The other advantage is survivability. Yeah you can't really use your pets as interrupts (and shouldn't use them that way), but your LT reliably heals you for a good amount and you can use your healer pets to keep you alive. Of course, that stuff is mostly good for saving your healers' power.

Anotehr thing is that you don't have to run healer pets as a full supp BD. Mine BD is full supp because I focus on solo play, but if I group up for whatever reason, I use a healer and a low level caster and low level disease pet. They're clearly not as good as what a dark BD would have, but they still interrupt and you now have a dedicated healer for your pets to help keep them all up.

So yeah, clearly not as good to run a supp BD over a split BD for 8man, but it's maybe not terrible either.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 5:21 PM by opossum12

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:39 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 1:18 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Jan 2021 12:26 PM
Nice changes for the baseline DD, even if for BDs it is not gift so great since the usual spec is Hybrid dark/supp so can use the dark dd in the cold debuff train, I believe that no one is going to spec full supp due to the LT recast nerf and the pets ridicolous heals. Fix the pet management and casting time, give back LT to 4 secs as it must be and finally the BD could be again an useful caster in many occasion, not only a twf bot or a tanking caster for soloing. Much better for Supp RM and SM since they already have many utils on supp line (confusion,ns, pbt, mezz/demezz, pbaoe).

Dashing defense for thanes is just a joke. After det 9, purge 3, moc 1, static tempest 3 one must be at least RR7 to even think about getting DD, with no other passives at all. Just absurd and a waste of points when you have a much better peeler in the warrior who will always have DD.

The change to supp is so that you can now run a caster train with pbt and red nearsight. Full Supp BD also has some pretty good utility compared to dark. Doesn't change much for hib/alb but for mid it's a nice buff

I know that is a good change for SM/RM, as I've said, but it's not so good for BDs. That's all.
What are the utilities on BD supp line? The focus aoe snare? The healers pets are crap, they will stay mezz/root forever, going out of range and have a casting time of centuries to land a crappy 200hp heal, and you cannot even use the commander to rupt because it will be killed in 3 seconds and all the other pets with him. At least with hybrid spec you can use some ranged pet to try to rupt (same issue about mezz/root, one will last for minutes so basically they are out of the fight since the very beginning) or to land a disease on someone. If you really want to increase BD damage the base supp DD should be on Body, so you can choose if you want to go full dark for heavier debuff but less base damage on the dd, full supp for higher base dmg but lower debuff or hybrid with yellow debuff and good base damage on base DD.

Because you go supp you can't have caster pets anymore? I never said that the healer pets are good. But you get a better lifetap, group absorb (which will help vs hib tanker) and the ae snare doesn't give immunity, sounds like a solid spell to me...

You sound like in a group your pets kill people, they are mainly there for interrupts. You don't lose that aspect.

Anyways the nuke is baseline sonas long as you get 51 composite you can spec however you want.

It's just a way better train for mid to be able to do supp with supp RM/dark SM.

Honestly, woukd be fun for the devs to increase thane dd delve and reduce the cold debuff in RC so that RMs could have enough points for pbt. You could run a energy cold having dark SM/RC rm (full subspec supp)/thane, with the recent DD addition to Thanes it could be interesting to have that kind of tank/peels in the back line doing dps.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 5:34 PM by Valaraukar

If we're talking about caster group... the Supp bd ABS buff is useless since it doesn't stack with self casted abs buff (and it's worse). The lifetap is not decent at all, since it has a 6 sec reuse and will heal you for about 200-250 hp, once every 6 secs which is just almost nothing compared to the damage dealt by other casters, and you will have only the 15% body debuff from dark spec. Much better is a 38/38 with yellow debuff for 30%, yellow abs (6 value instead of 9) and lvl 37 LT and now you can choose between cold or spirit debuff assist for your base dds.
And yes, pets should KILL ppl being glass pets that can be easily mezzed/rooted/aoe killed (and to recast them a BD needs half its power bar and about 30 secs standing still, buffs included). At least they could hit harder in their brief life out there

Edit. the AE snare is on focus, which means that you cannot move, cannot cast, cannot do anything else and everything against you will break the spell, so it doesn't seem so decent to me

Sat 2 Jan 2021 6:07 PM by Bry

Latest Patch Notes (January 2nd):
- theurgist pet damage against keep doors has been reduced
- ellyll sages had their healing delve reduced
- relic guards had their hp reduced and damage increased
- friar should once again be able to cancel the endurance pulse
- reduced spec level requirements for some eld and sm debuffs
- wizard earth spec 49 dot is no longer an ae dot
- char planner has been updated (10 minutes after restart)

- reduced spec level requirements for some eld and sm debuffs
The energy debuff for Elds should be level 46 void or less. Higher than 46 void is an unusable spec. No one runs void elds in 8v8.
46 void, 10 light, 26 mana is the void spec.
47 void, 10 light, 24 mana - This costs the eld the blue pbaoe, which is pet clear.

The spiritmaster spirit debuff is level 45. This is already in Dark which is the PRIMARY SPEC THAT SMs in an 8v8 use.

Why does hib have the highest specs for their debuffs compared to the other realms? Lower the debuffs to be comparable to mid/alb.

Also, the energy line is completely useless for hib. There is no spec energy nuke. This will never be used in 8v8. Yet another Hib caster nerf. The weakest of the weak casters gets yet another slap in the face. There is a reason why almost no one plays hib casters in 8v8.

- wizard earth spec 49 dot is no longer an ae dot
Thank you. About time. There is still too much utility in the Earth wizard line. They don't need to debuff their own damage.

Sat 2 Jan 2021 7:21 PM by Noashakra

Yes, the change is underwhelming for hib. I think it's a good thing for mid though.
The eld has to give up a lot of tools, the mentalist lose a lot of damage and needs to give the pet away...
All of this tweaking for the debuff nerf? You should give back the 50% debuff, hib caster didn't need this nerf.

Sun 3 Jan 2021 12:58 PM by Woolly

changes only nerf for ench

energy dd with the same damage and casttime without debuff is useless, eld debuff for you is very very rare

only 40% debuff on a lvl49skill in the manaline^^ - this was the main way to make damage for the manaench
the second is: I have 49+11 in mana and so many resist for this debuff

all this with 1500er castrange again albcaster - thats not funny - play hib and u feel with most char like an rp-giver

Sun 3 Jan 2021 3:31 PM by Jerrian

Warden still needs love.
Friar, Pala, Thane that play similar roles as hybrid got it already and warden is still far behind even with the already made changes. On live they got shielspecc due of that to make them a defence toon as devs recognized, it ´s not competitive with other classes.

Warden deals no damage, it ´s similar to druid that even has no weaponspeccline. Groupheals are meh, bubble gets penetrated mostly, no CC etc. Only taken for rvr grp when no bard is around for keepfights because of duckspeed is better then no speed and for the resis but most groups would even prefer a 3rd druid because of buffs, better heals and CC.

Sun 3 Jan 2021 9:47 PM by soremir

Jerrian wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Jan 2021 3:31 PM
Warden still needs love.

This is so true though.

Sun 3 Jan 2021 10:16 PM by Sepplord

How does bubble get "penetrated mostly"???

And isn't warden the main reason hibtankers are so strong? PBT without cloth-weakspot? I doubt there is a buff coming, unless it is paired with some heavy nerfs across all hibmelees which i don't think would be a better solution

Well maybe He does get some Love, and they shove PBT onto a different class. Latest changes have shown they aren't afraid of drastically changing a class. Not sure that's what you guys are hoping for though

Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:03 AM by Voso

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Dec 2020 1:58 PM
After some discussions with the new player council, the first set of changes will go in tomorrow, on the 1st.

Changes aimed at the viability of the Alb Tanker / Hybrid Setup
The current Friar self endurance consumption reduction buff will become a group pulse without mana cost.
For Merc only, penumbra (currently alternative follow up to shadow's edge, a back opener) will become a back opener with a snare component and have its values adjusted appropriately.

Changes aimed at the viability of Mid / Hib Caster and Hybrid Setups
Alternative baseline nukes will be added
- A spirit nuke in the midgard suppression line of bd /rm / sm
- An energy nuke in the hibernia mana line of eld / ench / menta
- A matter nuke in the albion matter line of sorc / cab
This also means a minor reshuffling of some of the resist debuffs, an example here would be the yellow hib eld energy debuff which will become available a couple spec levels earlier as well as a duration reduction of the relevant debuffs in each realm.

And something that supports both:
Paladin, Champion and Thane will receive access to the Dashing Defense RA

There are still lots of ongoing discussions, the next set(s) of changes will aim to address paladin and thane viability as well as some more help for certain hib caster / hybrid or possibly even niche caster setups in general. There is no ETA so far, while it can be for the most part agreed that problems exist, opinions diverge on their extent and potential solutions.

What am I missing here on these hib changes? They don't seem to balance anything? I would take an Eld at 37light/39mana for more utility over one at 19/18/47 and if you try to mana spec mentalist 16/43/28 that gives them a weak pet and lower nuke? Not to mention placing the debuff train requirement on the most high utility hib caster which is already doing enough... I would rather roll a hib heat debuff train with light ment/mana chanter/spilt spec eld.

Various group builds on each realm will always have an advantage over other groups and be weak against another build. The realms are all unique so it would be hard to balance every build to make them work on each realm equally.

There might be a better way to display this but here is my group build analysis without specs/ras/etc. I'm curious to know what other 8mans think.

Alb Casters
Strong Against: Hib Casters>Hib Hybrid>Mid Casters>Mid Hybrid
Weak Against: Hib Tanker>Mid Tanker
Alb Hybrid
Strong Against: Hib Tanker>Hib Hybrid>Mid Tanker>Mid Hybrid
Weak Against: Hib Caster>Mid Caster
Alb Tanker
Strong Against: Hib Caster>Mid Caster
Weak Against: Mid Hybrid>Mid Tanker>Hib Hybrid>Hib Tanker
Mid Casters
Strong Against: Hib Casters>Hib Hybrid>Alb Hybrid
Weak Against: Alb Casters>Hib Tanker>Alb Tanker
Mid Hybrid
Strong Against: Hib Tanker>Hib Hybrid>Alb Tanker
Weak Against Alb Caster>Hib Caster>Alb Hybrid
Mid Tanker
Strong Against: Hib Caster>Alb Caster>Alb Tanker
Weak Against: Hib Hybrid>Alb Hybrid>Hib Tanker
Hib Caster
Strong Against: Alb Hybrid>Mid Hybrid
Weak Against: Alb Caster>Alb Tanker>Mid Caster>Mid Tanker
Hib Hybrid
Strong Against: Alb Tanker>Mid Tanker
Weak Against: Alb Caster>Alb Hybrid>Mid Caster>Mid Hybrid
Hib Tanker
Strong Against: Alb Caster>Mid Caster>Mid Tanker>Alb Tanker
Weak Against: Mid Hybrid>Alb Hybrid

As you can see there is a reason why albs are running full caster setups while hibs are running mostly tanker setups. Underlying issues with the unbalanced builds.

Hib caster problem is pets, crappy short peels.
Hib hybrid problem is pets and crappy short peels

Alb tanker problem is having to use a theurg and sorc for bubble and CC so you cant run 3 mercs, paladin/arms and 4 support.
Albs should expect to run 1friar/2clerics/1mini to be similar to hibs: 2druid/1bard/1ward mids: 2healers/1shaman/1skald. Cleric would need haste. Paladin would need bubble, mini would need a 3 second aoe mez.

Mids have celerity and double cure mez in tanker setup so I don't think moving bubble to heavy armor such as thane would be balanced.

Having friar replace a cleric is creating an even more superior Alb caster group not a balanced alb tanker group. You have to make alb caster groups less appealing or accept that alb full tanker sets will never exist.

You could leave the server alone and accept that various group builds on each realm will always have an advantage over other groups and be weak against another build. This doesn't mean the group will not win if it is weak to a certain build, but it is easier for the stronger build to win. The realms are all unique so it is hard to balance every build to make them work. Limited staff and bad changes without rollbacks make your player base smaller. Having a small council champion their own realms and determine the outcome of the server is bad. I would rather see a reddit style upvoting system with a final vote at the end and if the vote has 70% agreement then commit a change to the server. Including everyone makes the majority of the player base fell heard instead of ignored and upset by the changes.

Mon 4 Jan 2021 7:14 AM by Centenario

Voso wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:03 AM
Alb tanker problem is having to use a theurg and sorc for bubble and CC so you cant run 3 mercs, paladin/arms and 4 support.
Albs should expect to run 1friar/2clerics/1mini to be similar to hibs: 2druid/1bard/1ward mids: 2healers/1shaman/1skald. Cleric would need haste. Paladin would need bubble, mini would need a 3 second aoe mez.

I agree that a lot of changes have to be made for alb tanker to become viable. It doesn’t look like they will make them.

Mon 4 Jan 2021 10:14 AM by Lollie

@Voso
Not necasserly, the hib/mid conc haste only delves for 17 so the pot will do. With the 4 core characters you listed then mid wouldnt be running bubble either. As for the aoe mez, absolutly no way should the mini get anymore cc, could give it to the cleric in the smite line maybe?

Tue 5 Jan 2021 9:51 AM by inoeth

back on live lyonesse/alb there was a very strong guild (satori) which ran a hybrid setup and i dont see why this would not work here... sure its not a debuff train setup still strong

cleric
cleric
pala
theurg
sorc
minst
merc
merc

to be a bit more melee heavy this setup could also be changed to

cleric
friar
arms
theurg
sorc
minst
merc
merc

Thu 7 Jan 2021 1:37 AM by Bry

Why on earth are the new baseline spells not balanced. The hib energy nuke for enchanters, elds and ments is level 48 but costs 33 power. The baseline heat is level 50 and costs 33 power.

FOR ALB, the baseline sorc nuke body level 50 costs 29 power. The new matter baseline level 45 nuke costs 30 power.

For mid, the SM baseline spirit nuke is level 48 and costs 30 power.

Why on earth is the power costs 10% higher for hib? Please balance the realms. The bias against hib is absurd.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 1:38 AM by PoisonClovers

Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 1:37 AM
Why on earth are the new baseline spells not balanced. The hib energy nuke for enchanters, elds and ments is level 48 but costs 33 power. The baseline heat is level 50 and costs 33 power.

FOR ALB, the baseline sorc nuke body level 50 costs 29 power. The new matter baseline level 45 nuke costs 30 power.

For mid, the SM baseline spirit nuke is level 48 and costs 30 power.

Why on earth is the power costs 10% higher for hib? Please balance the realms. The bias against hib is absurd.

actually noticed this this morning.. didnt have time to check all 3 realms.. but was wondering myself

Thu 7 Jan 2021 7:36 AM by gotwqqd

Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 1:37 AM
Why on earth are the new baseline spells not balanced. The hib energy nuke for enchanters, elds and ments is level 48 but costs 33 power. The baseline heat is level 50 and costs 33 power.

FOR ALB, the baseline sorc nuke body level 50 costs 29 power. The new matter baseline level 45 nuke costs 30 power.

For mid, the SM baseline spirit nuke is level 48 and costs 30 power.

Why on earth is the power costs 10% higher for hib? Please balance the realms. The bias against hib is absurd.

Maybe because of other stuff?
Baseline stun
Or something group members have?

Thu 7 Jan 2021 11:18 AM by easytoremember

Bry wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 1:37 AM
Why on earth are the new baseline spells not balanced. The hib energy nuke for enchanters, elds and ments is level 48 but costs 33 power. The baseline heat is level 50 and costs 33 power.

FOR ALB, the baseline sorc nuke body level 50 costs 29 power. The new matter baseline level 45 nuke costs 30 power.

For mid, the SM baseline spirit nuke is level 48 and costs 30 power.

Why on earth is the power costs 10% higher for hib? Please balance the realms. The bias against hib is absurd.

The power cost might be a remnant of the original spells these were lifted from being different levels

Thu 7 Jan 2021 2:19 PM by Simon73

Centenario wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Jan 2021 7:14 AM
Voso wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:03 AM
Alb tanker problem is having to use a theurg and sorc for bubble and CC so you cant run 3 mercs, paladin/arms and 4 support.
Albs should expect to run 1friar/2clerics/1mini to be similar to hibs: 2druid/1bard/1ward mids: 2healers/1shaman/1skald. Cleric would need haste. Paladin would need bubble, mini would need a 3 second aoe mez.
I agree that a lot of changes have to be made for alb tanker to become viable. It doesn’t look like they will make them.

Ok, so please give warden a charmable red pet so i can finally remove purge from it. Give bard end song on different spell line that doesn't need to be casted and doesn't cost mana like paladin. Give hib a heal proc like friar or clerics. Give hib an AF song. Give hib a frigg spell. Give hib a end reduction group buff like friar.
This seems more like wow that daoc.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 3:06 PM by Nando

so with this patches, the table turns to hibernia slowly, as expected. Last Night Zerg was the first Hint, more to follow.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 4:22 PM by Lollie

It's funny, mid was hammered on by both hib and alb earlier in the week, resulting in all the relics gone. It's swings and roundabouts, always has been, after hib has been battered it will shift back to mid or alb.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 8:09 PM by Noashakra

Nando wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 3:06 PM
so with this patches, the table turns to hibernia slowly, as expected. Last Night Zerg was the first Hint, more to follow.

lmao, this patch alone changed nothing for hibernia, the energy dd and debuff were not good enough on their own.

Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:36 PM by Sepplord

Probably referring to the other Changes that we're Put in but bot announced in these planned Changes thread...

I was personally also confused when i went looking for them again and at First didnt find them in this announcement

Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:10 AM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:36 PM
Probably referring to the other Changes that we're Put in but bot announced in these planned Changes thread...

I was personally also confused when i went looking for them again and at First didnt find them in this announcement

the problem is that hib got a lot of people in the bg 2 days ago, and the new announcement wasn't there yet...

Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:30 AM by Sepplord

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:10 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:36 PM
Probably referring to the other Changes that we're Put in but bot announced in these planned Changes thread...

I was personally also confused when i went looking for them again and at First didnt find them in this announcement

the problem is that hib got a lot of people in the bg 2 days ago, and the new announcement wasn't there yet...

i am referring to the already active changes of the patchnotes, that are not mentioned in either of the "2021 balance changes" thread.
For example theurg pet dmg reduction to doors, and wizards losing AoE-dot. Which Nando is saying is the reason hibzerg got the amount of people they did

Just explaining btw, not neccessarily agreeing or disagreeing

Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:44 AM by Nando

yeah, its the latest changes with all the alb nerfs, not only this one - clearly hibernia love at its best

Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:45 AM by Noashakra

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:30 AM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Jan 2021 8:10 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Jan 2021 10:36 PM
Probably referring to the other Changes that we're Put in but bot announced in these planned Changes thread...

I was personally also confused when i went looking for them again and at First didnt find them in this announcement

the problem is that hib got a lot of people in the bg 2 days ago, and the new announcement wasn't there yet...

i am referring to the already active changes of the patchnotes, that are not mentioned in either of the "2021 balance changes" thread.
For example theurg pet dmg reduction to doors, and wizards losing AoE-dot. Which Nando is saying is the reason hibzerg got the amount of people they did

Just explaining btw, not neccessarily agreeing or disagreeing

Ofc I am not arguying with you. It's just that 1 day of hib domination means nothing and correlation doesn't mean causation.

Sun 10 Jan 2021 7:41 PM by Valaraukar

Buuuut let's talk about Midgard!

.... Oh, right, there's nothing to say about it 😂