Reducing the range of Insta CC

This game pretends to have some semblance of logic and balance.
It is really a tower of cards requiring OP classes of one realm to counter the OP classes of another.

I understand that this game was made a long time ago and has characteristics built into it that people would freak if changed.
I see these as sins of the creators that everyone knows are wrong but are unwilling to change for fear that their realm will suffer.
It should not be a discussion of one realm vs the other because all realms should have limited use of crazy OP abilities.

This game is faster now than when created and ranged Insta-cast is KING.
Specially the ranged Insta-cast that lasts crazy long time compared to the average time-to-kill in today's game.
It is not fair to have Insta-cast CC out to 1500 range or longer as there are no strategies or tactics to counter these.

What we SHOULD do is lower the range on ALL Insta-cast CC to 750 units.

Give those affected by this limitation a timed-cast version of their original range.
Make the duration of the cast dependent on the range and power of the spell.
So a 1500 range 30 second mezz should take longer to cast than a 1500 range 20 second mezz.
A 1000 range 5 second stun should take less time to cast than 1500 range 5 second stun.

Apply this standard to all realms and then consider if individual class balancing is needed.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 6:09 AM by Sepplord

i believe completely redesigning classes and skillbalance would be easier than starting down this path and adjusting on the fly ^^

Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:28 AM by Caballo

DAoC lives from being unfair and unforgiving, especially when it comes to PvP. There are no OP classes, no OP strategies, no OP RAs (anymore). Ofc some are more effective then others, some allow you to make more errors, some don't. Instants are part of the game, nothing is wrong with it and the classes using them. If you struggle against some of them, try figure out how you can anticipate their use or work against/around them. You will eventually find a way - and feel very good then :-)!

I unfortunately am convinced that your suggestion will not find its way into our internal discussion boards. Sorry.

Appreciate your efforts though!

all the best
Caballo

Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:49 AM by florin

Caballo wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:28 AM
DAoC lives from being unfair and unforgiving, especially when it comes to PvP. There are no OP classes, no OP strategies, no OP RAs (anymore). Ofc some are more effective then others, some allow you to make more errors, some don't. Instants are part of the game, nothing is wrong with it and the classes using them. If you struggle against some of them, try figure out how you can anticipate their use or work against/around them. You will eventually find a way - and feel very good then :-)!

I unfortunately am convinced that your suggestion will not find its way into our internal discussion boards. Sorry.

Appreciate your efforts though!

all the best
Caballo

Blanket statements like this do not give you good credibility. If nothing is op, there would be no reason for adjustments or nerfs.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 2:05 PM by stinsfire

So you want Mids to play with 750 range, 10 minute cooldown Mezz vs Alb 1850 Ae mezz without cooldown?!

Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:01 PM by Fribrand

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 6:09 AM
i believe completely redesigning classes and skillbalance would be easier than starting down this path and adjusting on the fly ^^

No need to redesign anything.
All characters will keep the same abilities.
They will simply have to stop and cast it OR get within 750 units.

The adjustments I was thinking was that some classes would need an insta-cast interrupt type spell added.
This would give them the ability to use it against casters instead of the mezz/stun they were previously using.
Nothing game-breaking... just small tweak to restore their balance vs some classes while bringing them inline with normal play.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:15 PM by Numatic

florin wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:49 AM
Caballo wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:28 AM
DAoC lives from being unfair and unforgiving, especially when it comes to PvP. There are no OP classes, no OP strategies, no OP RAs (anymore). Ofc some are more effective then others, some allow you to make more errors, some don't. Instants are part of the game, nothing is wrong with it and the classes using them. If you struggle against some of them, try figure out how you can anticipate their use or work against/around them. You will eventually find a way - and feel very good then :-)!

I unfortunately am convinced that your suggestion will not find its way into our internal discussion boards. Sorry.

Appreciate your efforts though!

all the best
Caballo

Blanket statements like this do not give you good credibility. If nothing is op, there would be no reason for adjustments or nerfs.

OP abilities is a bit subjective. Most OP abilities are OP in a single type of situation. Take TWF and Maelstron in keep seige. Completely OP there. But in open RvR? Meh. It's useful for sure but far from OP. Bard amnesia? 8v8 it's a strong tool but not OP. But 8vanything less? Instant chase down for free rps and completely OP. Everything here is situational and comes in the form of adjustments/nerfs based on those situations. Doesnt mean the ability itself is OP, just means in a certain situation it is and nerfing an entire ability because its strong in a single situation will make it useless in all situations. That's what they call finding a "balance" and making a change there

Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:27 PM by Fribrand

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 2:05 PM
So you want Mids to play with 750 range, 10 minute cooldown Mezz vs Alb 1850 Ae mezz without cooldown?!

I do not want it to be a realm thing at all... and, I don't want it to be a copy exactly.
I want there to be a standard range of abilities that classes are allocated.
These should be influenced by the classes primary, secondary and tertiary roles.

If one CC class has a 1850 range AOE mezz that take 3+ seconds to cast, that is within an acceptable window.
If another realm has an Insta-cast single-target mezz then it should be at significantly lower range than a 3 second cast single-target mezz.

If a class has a primary role of CC then they should have an advantage of range and/or casting speed and/or cooldown over a class with CC as a tertiary skill.
What we don't need is people casting a 30+ second insta-cast mezz at near clipping range.

I laugh when people complain about getting a 5-10% reduction in damage when the biggest outcome influences are OP insta-cast CC.
Who cares if u do 10% less damage when you are standing there useless until 3 people surround u and kill in 2 seconds.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 5:16 PM by stinsfire

Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:27 PM
stinsfire wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 2:05 PM
So you want Mids to play with 750 range, 10 minute cooldown Mezz vs Alb 1850 Ae mezz without cooldown?!

I do not want it to be a realm thing at all... and, I don't want it to be a copy exactly.
I want there to be a standard range of abilities that classes are allocated.
These should be influenced by the classes primary, secondary and tertiary roles.

If one CC class has a 1850 range AOE mezz that take 3+ seconds to cast, that is within an acceptable window.
If another realm has an Insta-cast single-target mezz then it should be at significantly lower range than a 3 second cast single-target mezz.

If a class has a primary role of CC then they should have an advantage of range and/or casting speed and/or cooldown over a class with CC as a tertiary skill.
What we don't need is people casting a 30+ second insta-cast mezz at near clipping range.

I laugh when people complain about getting a 5-10% reduction in damage when the biggest outcome influences are OP insta-cast CC.
Who cares if u do 10% less damage when you are standing there useless until 3 people surround u and kill in 2 seconds.

So you want mids to lose every CC battle by default? okay.

Insta mezz has 30s delve which means it mezzes people probably for 5-15s every 10 minutes..
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:03 PM by Fribrand

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 5:16 PM
So you want mids to lose every CC battle by default? okay.

Insta mezz has 30s delve which means it mezzes people probably for 5-15s every 10 minutes..
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

I completely understand how OP ranged insta-cast mezz is...
That is why I am abandoning my Alb alts at rolling a Bard

10-15 seconds is enough time to completely wipe a small group and almost a full group
And 10 minutes in not bad in the current realm wars
Heck, it takes almost that long just to get to the new objective

Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:32 PM by ExcretusMaximus

On what planet does a templated Sorc take "3+ seconds to cast"?

Because it's not this one.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:44 PM by Sepplord

Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 6:09 AM
i believe completely redesigning classes and skillbalance would be easier than starting down this path and adjusting on the fly ^^

No need to redesign anything.
All characters will keep the same abilities.
They will simply have to stop and cast it OR get within 750 units.

The adjustments I was thinking was that some classes would need an insta-cast interrupt type spell added.
This would give them the ability to use it against casters instead of the mezz/stun they were previously using.
Nothing game-breaking... just small tweak to restore their balance vs some classes while bringing them inline with normal play.

I think you didn't get my comment...

i didn't say your idea requires redesigning....i said redesigning from scratch would be easier than doing your idea well

Mon 3 Jun 2019 8:45 PM by stinsfire

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:32 PM
On what planet does a templated Sorc take "3+ seconds to cast"?

Because it's not this one.

On his planet insta mezzes also last 30s+ when the highest delve is 30 and full fgs are being killed within 10s of instamezz

He seems kinda disconnected from reality and incapale of reading ability descriptions.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 9:56 PM by Fribrand

@stinsfire

What are you talking about? Can you read? How old are you?

I clearly stated that small groups are wiped in 10-15 seconds and full groups can be mostly wiped.
I can not count how many times that I have seen 8v4, or even 4v4 last less than 12 seconds and 8v8 last less than 20 seconds.
It happens all the time.

You have not added anything to this discussion except to show that you are biased towards Mid...
/ignored

Mon 3 Jun 2019 10:12 PM by Fribrand

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:44 PM
I think you didn't get my comment...

i didn't say your idea requires redesigning....i said redesigning from scratch would be easier than doing your idea well

I disagree... as I said... no redesign needed... everyone will still have the same abilities.

What will be needed is an adjustment of play for those who have 1 button / uninterruptible / long ranged / high affect abilities.
Forcing someone to stop and cast for 2 seconds in order to eliminate 1-8 people from action for 10-30 seconds in not an abusive nerf.
Nor is forcing someone to partially engage with the enemy at 750 units to implement such powerful spells.

My proposal allows for the Devs here to give classes with those abilities currently either or both options.

Mon 3 Jun 2019 10:27 PM by Fribrand

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:32 PM
On what planet does a templated Sorc take "3+ seconds to cast"?

Because it's not this one.

Not once did I mention any class... (some classes have base 5 second CC cast times)
The fact that people start defending one class or attacking another class in never productive.

I want all classes, in all realms to have reasonable abilities that allow them to make strategic decisions on how to play.

Having a long-range insta-cast spell that locks people out of action does not require any strategic decisions.
it just lets them push 1 key and have an immediate impact on the area.

Choosing to stand and cast or keep moving is a strategic decision...
Choosing to close the range, and put yourself at risk, for a chance to have an impact is a strategic decision...

Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:48 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 10:27 PM
Not once did I mention any class...

Sure you did:

Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 4:27 PM
If one CC class has a 1850 range AOE mezz that take 3+ seconds to cast

Right there, you mentioned the only class in the game with bolt range mez, which is the Sorcerer, and you also say it takes them "3+ seconds" to cast their mez.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:31 AM by Fribrand

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 11:48 PM
Right there, you mentioned the only class in the game with bolt range mez, which is the Sorcerer, and you also say it takes them "3+ seconds" to cast their mez.

I was basically just using numbers from a previous response as an example... I could have said 1500+ and still made the point
like I said... i don't want to talk about individual classes because people tend to get crazy defensive and a template of abilities should apply to all realms
It the Devs want to allow a longer range on a primary CC class than on a secondary class or on a secondary vs tertiary class then I am OK with that

The scale is not broken on the longer casting time side of the time line.
The scale is broken on the zero casting time side of the scale.

For example: a 5 sec base cast time 1500 unit range AOE mezz is weak on average
A 3 sec base cast time 1500 unit range single target mezz is average
An insta-cast 5 sec cast single-target stun at only 750 unit range is fair
An Insta-cast 15 sec single-target mezz at 750 unit range is fair

Having a 1500 range insta-cast 30 sec mezz is not fair (specially if it is AOE)
Replace that with a 750 unit range insta-cast mezz and/or a 1500 unit range 2.5-3 sec cast mezz

Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:54 AM by Sepplord

Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 10:12 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:44 PM
I think you didn't get my comment...

i didn't say your idea requires redesigning....i said redesigning from scratch would be easier than doing your idea well

I disagree... as I said... no redesign needed... everyone will still have the same abilities.

What will be needed is an adjustment of play for those who have 1 button / uninterruptible / long ranged / high affect abilities.
Forcing someone to stop and cast for 2 seconds in order to eliminate 1-8 people from action for 10-30 seconds in not an abusive nerf.
Nor is forcing someone to partially engage with the enemy at 750 units to implement such powerful spells.

My proposal allows for the Devs here to give classes with those abilities currently either or both options.

uhhh....i don't know how to further spell it out for you...i literally told you that i am not saying your idea needs redesign...yet you double down on your first reaction and comment the same stuff again clearly showing no interest in what i have just said.
soo...have fun with your idea ^^

Tue 4 Jun 2019 1:02 PM by lurker

Just spread out on inc dude. It’s not that difficult. 1500 is far from ‘near clip range’.

Sorry but alb has an easy get out of mezz card (minstrel) as does hib (mentalist).

I suppose mid have the hardest time of it but seeing as they are tank/det heavy it’s less of an issue.

I think you might be quite disappointed when you get that bard into RvR and realise how limited it is. Most bards would happily sacrifice their insta mezz for a sorc mezz, I imagine.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 1:17 PM by stinsfire

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:54 AM
Fribrand wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 10:12 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Jun 2019 7:44 PM
I think you didn't get my comment...

i didn't say your idea requires redesigning....i said redesigning from scratch would be easier than doing your idea well

I disagree... as I said... no redesign needed... everyone will still have the same abilities.

What will be needed is an adjustment of play for those who have 1 button / uninterruptible / long ranged / high affect abilities.
Forcing someone to stop and cast for 2 seconds in order to eliminate 1-8 people from action for 10-30 seconds in not an abusive nerf.
Nor is forcing someone to partially engage with the enemy at 750 units to implement such powerful spells.

My proposal allows for the Devs here to give classes with those abilities currently either or both options.

uhhh....i don't know how to further spell it out for you...i literally told you that i am not saying your idea needs redesign...yet you double down on your first reaction and comment the same stuff again clearly showing no interest in what i have just said.
soo...have fun with your idea ^^

Well ... do you remember my comment you liked a couple of minutes ago? Guess the same applies here. What is wrong with these people?
This Fribrand dude posts multiple wrong numers, makes false claims.. gets called out for it by numerous people, answers your post with something that was completely unrelated to your statement, calls me a kid and says I don't contribute anything to the discussion and then says he will put me on ignore..... And yet he can't admit that he just fucked up and 80% f what is he writing is complete nonsense. How effing mental do you have to be to display such kind of behaviour??

Fribrand.. there is no point in arguing with you since you seem almost delusional. Your reasoning is disconnected from facts and reality. And please stop insulting people just because you don't have any arguments on your side.

Just as an example:

Not once did I mention any class... (some classes have base 5 second CC cast times)

Two lies within 16 words. He mentioned a class, namely the sorc, and it is not some classes who have a base 5 second CC. It is one class... the minstrel... and only because he can mezz out of stealth. And it is a low duration AE mezz. Do you think we are stupid and don't remember or look up what you wrote a couple of comments earlier?

Firbrand is probably just as bad at the game (and learning how to counter things) as he is bad at forming logical arguments, looking up numbers, remembering his own statements and understanding others arguments.

Edit: Read my own post. Sorry if the post sounds a bit rude. Could have worded it a bit nicer, but had to let it out after he insulted me.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 2:50 PM by ExcretusMaximus

lurker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 1:02 PM
Most bards would happily sacrifice their insta mezz for a sorc mezz, I imagine.

I know I would have when I played one (RR8).

Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:38 AM by Kadorna

Sorc can use quikcast+aoe bolt range mezz => any main mezzer from another realm can quickcast their mezz (thats one of the reason for the insta mezz). you cant land a casted mezz as healer/bard if someone is hitting you while sorcs can do it...maybe need to remove quickcast from sorcerers for "balance" purpose....

Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:45 AM by Sepplord

Kadorna wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:38 AM
Sorc can use quikcast+aoe bolt range mezz => any main mezzer from another realm can quickcast their mezz (thats one of the reason for the insta mezz). you cant land a casted mezz as healer/bard if someone is hitting you while sorcs can do it...maybe need to remove quickcast from sorcerers for "balance" purpose....

bard is quite good with the instant amnesia...so that would need change too....which would require other changes too....etc...

it's overall an impractical suggestion and a complete revamp of the game

Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:57 AM by Kadorna

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:45 AM
Kadorna wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:38 AM
Sorc can use quikcast+aoe bolt range mezz => any main mezzer from another realm can quickcast their mezz (thats one of the reason for the insta mezz). you cant land a casted mezz as healer/bard if someone is hitting you while sorcs can do it...maybe need to remove quickcast from sorcerers for "balance" purpose....

bard is quite good with the instant amnesia...so that would need change too....which would require other changes too....etc...

it's overall an impractical suggestion and a complete revamp of the game

what imsaying is that every class has some unique mechanics => i said the quikcast+mezz from sorc because in this thread is relevant (since we are talking to nerf insta mezz).
if u set a healer in front a sorcerer for a mezz competition, with a 750 range insta mezz its impossible for the healer to "win" mezz vs a 1850 range => you can try it 1000 times and the result will be the same, sorc will win mezz 100%. with a 1500 range insta mezz maybe healer can win 1 time every 10 minutes...

Wed 5 Jun 2019 11:43 AM by Sepplord

Kadorna wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:57 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:45 AM
Kadorna wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:38 AM
Sorc can use quikcast+aoe bolt range mezz => any main mezzer from another realm can quickcast their mezz (thats one of the reason for the insta mezz). you cant land a casted mezz as healer/bard if someone is hitting you while sorcs can do it...maybe need to remove quickcast from sorcerers for "balance" purpose....

bard is quite good with the instant amnesia...so that would need change too....which would require other changes too....etc...

it's overall an impractical suggestion and a complete revamp of the game
what imsaying is that every class has some unique mechanics => i said the quikcast+mezz from sorc because in this thread is relevant (since we are talking to nerf insta mezz).
if u set a healer in front a sorcerer for a mezz competition, with a 750 range insta mezz its impossible for the healer to "win" mezz vs a 1850 range => you can try it 1000 times and the result will be the same, sorc will win mezz 100%. with a 1500 range insta mezz maybe healer can win 1 time every 10 minutes...

i was agreeing and just furthering your point...at least that was my intention

I think we mean the same thing. My last part wasn't directed at you, but more a conclusion to the general idea of removing instants

healers can't win CC-battle without instants at all (which is why it would be my last preference i was to play a main-CCler), their castspeed is very slow.
Bards have a better chance, because they have instant-amnesia which interrupts even quickcast-sorcmezz, and they have two of those, so one to close the current range-gap and the other to cast their mezz. A good sorc will cast amnesia themselves though and will be faster than the bard and can then QC-mezz when the amnesia is on cooldown (small window though, and bards have other jobs at the beginning of a fight too (e.g. endu) so them having an instant is also justified)