Minst Charm - Phoenix Freeshard

Anyone who has played a minst knows twisting charm while other songs is encumber some. Having to click your pet charm then twist, click off to target enemy, apply abs song or w/e, click off targ, click on ur pet to re-charm, than click back on enemy, only supports why Mythic got rid of this play style.

Now I don't believe chant toons should be able to play all of their songs endlessly like how it is on live either.

Option 1: I propose that perhaps Minsts acquire a charm spell much like a ments. Drains power for chances to keep pet charmed, however to negate the loss of power a minst would be required to twist PoM as well as their other desired chant. This charm would only be capable of charming pets yellow and lower, not Oj+.

Option 2: Chant classes have the ability to always have two songs up of their choice, I believe this was implemented around ToA.

Is it do able how it is now? Yes, but its an overly complicated play style, that's not very rewarding. Especially, since being able to charm reds is out the door.

Sun 12 May 2019 2:04 AM by Sharky04

I'm all for giving Minstrels the Mentalist pet charm. Orange con pet will resist every 30 seconds.

Sun 12 May 2019 7:22 AM by shewtz

would definitely get me to play my minst again.

Sun 12 May 2019 8:04 AM by lurker

We spoke about this in a different thread but it’s not encumbersome, use qbinds effectively and it’s just 2 button presses at the right times. Bit of practice and it’s trivial with yellow or below pets.

However...

Does mentalist pet attack caster after release like a minstrel? Also does it recharge automatically next pulse?... If so this would be way to powerful.

Would need to be like sorc charm where it just doesn’t aggro and goes home / does not recharm on release.

Otherwise it’s 99% of the advantages of the minstrel charm with none of the downsides.

I think if they were to do this here it would need to be a really gimped version. Like lvl 40 pet max sorc charm. (Green pet only) so it can only be used for interupts and easily countered by the enemy groups. Not used for demezz / deroot / etc

Personally I don’t think any change is needed. People group non-pet taking minstrels all the time here. I even see some really good set-groups minstrels running without pets.

Minstrels are one of the most powerful classes in the game at this patch level. Largely due to the way their charm works. They also have one of the highest skill caps to match.

Sun 12 May 2019 8:46 AM by Corpse

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 May 2019 2:04 AM
I'm all for giving Minstrels the Mentalist pet charm. Orange con pet will resist every 30 seconds.

Well the point of them getting it would be so they could have a pet easier but would be limited to player level or lower. Oranges would be uncharmable due to becoming overpowered.

Sun 12 May 2019 7:28 PM by paul_g

Lol
The most OP class in game needs some love!
Please help them!

Mon 13 May 2019 1:17 AM by

gruenesschaf

Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

Mon 13 May 2019 1:42 AM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:17 AM
Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

Except the second difference is that mentalist charm has power usage

Mon 13 May 2019 4:50 PM by Corpse

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:17 AM
Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

Right, but what I'm asking for is for that charm to not have to be twisted. For it to be cast, and remain pulsing on its own.

There's not even a "cast text" that appears when charming, only a "cancel text".

Minst needs a pet to really be effective in combat, its 1/3 of their dps. However, twisting charm with other chant abilities can be quiet difficult for most. Especially when that charm is resisted. We know there are minst who will claim "its easy, qbind" ect… but this isn't the case for most. Like I said, 90% of the minst I see run without a pet, and I always ask why, and their responses are always the same. Too much of hassle. Again, There is a reason why Mythic (original team) cut this out.

Mon 13 May 2019 9:45 PM by Sharky04

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:17 AM
Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

There is no chance it's the same formula. Mentalists have constant resists on orange mobs, red cons are virtually impossible. Minstrel with purple pets are very common.

Mon 13 May 2019 9:59 PM by Corpse

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 9:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 1:17 AM
Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

There is no chance it's the same formula. Mentalists have constant resists on orange mobs, red cons are virtually impossible. Minstrel with purple pets are very common.

Minst with purp pets common? Maybe at release... I don't see Minst taking anything but yellow/blue. I believe the charm was nerf'd to prevent Purps/Reds easily, Nor do I believe a class should be able to charm such. (correct me if im wrong, but I think such a thing was recently patched or fixed).

The resisting is not the issue I'm bringing up. It's the actual steps needed into charming a pet regardless of its level. Having to charm, twist needed song, re-click (qbind key) your pet again charm, twist song, attack enemy, click off (qbind key) to your pet, re-charm, re-click enemy attack ect… Therefore I suggest a Ment's charm since you do not constant have to do this, only unless pet charm breaks. Its at that point dependent upon the Minst and what he/she is wanting to charm and deal with. With how it is now, it doesn't matter if its grey or red, the complicated steps in clicking/qbinding to get around to having a pet is still there.

Mon 13 May 2019 10:04 PM by Sektor

Corpse wrote: [quote=Sharky04 post_id=63905 time=<a href="tel:1557783935">1557783935</a> user_id=175634]
[quote=gruenesschaf post_id=63603 time=<a href="tel:1557710270">1557710270</a> user_id=49]
Minstrel and Mentalist charm have the same effect: a pulsing charm. The difference is that the mentalist has no other pulse spell

There is no chance it's the same formula. Mentalists have constant resists on orange mobs, red cons are virtually impossible. Minstrel with purple pets are very common.
[/quote]

Minst with purp pets common? Maybe at release... I don't see Minst taking anything but yellow/blue. I believe the charm was nerf'd to prevent Purps/Reds easily, Nor do I believe a class should be able to charm such. (correct me if im wrong, but I think such a thing was recently patched or fixed).

The resisting is not the issue I'm bringing up. It's the actual steps needed into charming a pet regardless of its level. Having to charm, twist needed song, re-click (qbind key) your pet again charm, twist song, attack enemy, click off (qbind key) to your pet, re-charm, re-click enemy attack ect… Therefore I suggest a Ment's charm since you do not constant have to do this, only unless pet charm breaks. Its at that point dependent upon the Minst and what he/she is wanting to charm and deal with. With how it is now, it doesn't matter if its grey or red, the complicated steps in clicking/qbinding to get around to having a pet is still there.
[/quote]

Great idea. While we’re at it let’s give minstrels 2.5 points per level oh and let the pet stealth with you too.

Mon 13 May 2019 10:20 PM by Roks

So you saying a speed class, thats also a melee, with hybrid abilities like insta dds and stuns, should be able to have pets that allows a minstrel to kite enemy players to death, repeatedly and rarely have to use a timer RA against an enemy, while the only way an enemy can win against a minstrel kite solo is to pop a few timers so meaning higher RR only. So you rather give rr7+ minstrels the ability to piss off already dwindling enemy base of soloers that are low RR because they do not stand a chance against a minstrel even of a lower rr?

Mon 13 May 2019 10:54 PM by Corpse

Roks wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:20 PM
So you saying a speed class, thats also a melee, with hybrid abilities like insta dds and stuns, should be able to have pets that allows a minstrel to kite enemy players to death, repeatedly and rarely have to use a timer RA against an enemy, while the only way an enemy can win against a minstrel kite solo is to pop a few timers so meaning higher RR only. So you rather give rr7+ minstrels the ability to piss off already dwindling enemy base of soloers that are low RR because they do not stand a chance against a minstrel even of a lower rr?

Obviously you taking this personal and telling about your experiences. Again, (I believe) minst cannot charm high pets anymore. Oj's seem to break 50% of the time hitting the minst himself.

I do not kite, nor the other minst I have played with I've seen kite. Not at least since they seem to of gotten rid of the fact Minst being able to charm purps/reds effectively. (Again, for the good)

Minst have their dps split in thirds. Melee, Pet, DD's. Having just melee on a minst is like attacking with rain drops. Leaving the DD's to be a main contender in their dps. however, their dps is resistible. (as it should be). Leaving their pet to help make up for the lack of melee dmg. I'm not suggesting anything that's not already in the game or what they are capable of. If anything it would be to nerf their charm level to cap out at Yellow for the ease of not twisting.

Would you rather have a Minst with a blue/yellow pet, or a minst with twisting charm who has Oj/Red and kites you?

Mon 13 May 2019 11:41 PM by Roks

Played minst and played against them.

Tue 14 May 2019 1:28 AM by lurker

Corpse wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:54 PM
Again, (I believe) minst cannot charm high pets anymore. Oj's seem to break 50% of the time hitting the minst himself.

Sharky04 wrote: There is no chance it's the same formula. Mentalists have constant resists on orange mobs, red cons are virtually impossible. Minstrel with purple pets are very common.

It is the same formula. The difference is that minstrels have an instant - no power cost charm.
We can spam it 3 times a second and overcome those resists easily. A mentalist has a 3 second cast time so is limited to lower level pets as a result.

Then it comes down to realm rank. At realm rank 6 I can charm a lvl 54 on a 5% resit rate, this almost never breaks just by leaving the charm running. No spam needed. An RR6 mentalist could do the same.

lvl 55 -> 15% (highest level orange, I can pretty much leave this running without much concern/spam)
lvl 56-57 -> 30-40%

I can comfortably control something with a 40% resist rate or lower using minstrel insta charm spam, I like to keep it 30% or lower just to be safe. A mentalist would struggle at anything more than 15 because of the mechanics of the spell (power cost/cast time).

As my realm rank increases these will get easier to control and I will be able to comfortably take higher level pets if I wished to. Equally a very high realm rank mentalist will be able to comfortably control much higher pets without to much problem.

The real question here on phoenix is - is there really that much point in taking a red pet? Damage doesn't increase above level 50 like it does on live. (1% per level, i think) so your just gaining HPs/more resist(?), etc.

Tue 14 May 2019 2:12 AM by Corpse

lurker wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 1:28 AM
Corpse wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:54 PM
Again, (I believe) minst cannot charm high pets anymore. Oj's seem to break 50% of the time hitting the minst himself.

Sharky04 wrote: There is no chance it's the same formula. Mentalists have constant resists on orange mobs, red cons are virtually impossible. Minstrel with purple pets are very common.

It is the same formula. The difference is that minstrels have an instant - no power cost charm.
We can spam it 3 times a second and overcome those resists easily. A mentalist has a 3 second cast time so is limited to lower level pets as a result.

Then it comes down to realm rank. At realm rank 6 I can charm a lvl 54 on a 5% resit rate, this almost never breaks just by leaving the charm running. No spam needed. An RR6 mentalist could do the same.

lvl 55 -> 15% (highest level orange, I can pretty much leave this running without much concern/spam)
lvl 56-57 -> 30-40%

I can comfortably control something with a 40% resist rate or lower using minstrel insta charm spam, I like to keep it 30% or lower just to be safe. A mentalist would struggle at anything more than 15 because of the mechanics of the spell (power cost/cast time).

As my realm rank increases these will get easier to control and I will be able to comfortably take higher level pets if I wished to. Equally a very high realm rank mentalist will be able to comfortably control much higher pets without to much problem.

The real question here on phoenix is - is there really that much point in taking a red pet? Damage doesn't increase above level 50 like it does on live. (1% per level, i think) so your just gaining HPs/more resist(?), etc.

OK those are good points. Essentially you have to be a decent RR to be a "OP" minst. (rather that's all classes tho imo)

Not sure I understand (new to phx) Damage doesn't increase, so a Red does same dmg as a OJ or even a yellow? If considering that Yellow was level 50? Your basically charming for more a pet with more HP?

Tue 14 May 2019 2:30 AM by teiloh

Roks wrote: ↑
Mon 13 May 2019 10:20 PM
So you saying a speed class, thats also a melee, with hybrid abilities like insta dds and stuns, should be able to have pets that allows a minstrel to kite enemy players to death, repeatedly and rarely have to use a timer RA against an enemy, while the only way an enemy can win against a minstrel kite solo is to pop a few timers so meaning higher RR only. So you rather give rr7+ minstrels the ability to piss off already dwindling enemy base of soloers that are low RR because they do not stand a chance against a minstrel even of a lower rr?

Every single pet class can do the same, except Enchanter/BD pets do MUCH more DPS.

The only difference is that Minstrels have speed 5, and have shit DPS (close to bard DPS)

Tue 14 May 2019 7:32 AM by lurker

Corpse wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 2:12 AM
Not sure I understand (new to phx) Damage doesn't increase, so a Red does same dmg as a OJ or even a yellow? If considering that Yellow was level 50? Your basically charming for more a pet with more HP?

I’m not 100% sure on the mechanics / changes but my understanding is that here and on live if you charm a pet > 50 it’s damage and the damage it receives is lowered to be quivelent to a level 50 of that mob type.

Live has an additional benefit where you get a 1% damage increase from that lowered level for each level above 50 that the pet is. That is however not implemented here and it just caps at 50.

So here you are just getting HPs, possibly increased resist rates for spells cast against pets, extra abilities that higher level pets have etc.

Tue 14 May 2019 7:54 AM by lurker

It’s really the mechanics of a minstrels charm that make him OP by the way, not the level of a pet. You and your pet are largely immune to mezz and root if played properly.

A high level pet with large amounts of HP is pretty powerful as it requires some time/effort/coordination to focus it down on the enemy groups part but nothing too difficult to overcome.

Minstrels can demezz themselves, pop MoC, demezz the entire group.

Minstrels can deroot any member of the group if needed.

Minstrels can Interrupt a large number of people using pet, weapon, 2 x DDs, confuse, stun.

These are the things that make it shine. IMO

Tue 14 May 2019 11:54 PM by teiloh

lurker wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 7:54 AM
It’s really the mechanics of a minstrels charm that make him OP by the way, not the level of a pet. You and your pet are largely immune to mezz and root if played properly.

A high level pet with large amounts of HP is pretty powerful as it requires some time/effort/coordination to focus it down on the enemy groups part but nothing too difficult to overcome.

Minstrels can demezz themselves, pop MoC, demezz the entire group.

Minstrels can deroot any member of the group if needed.

Minstrels can Interrupt a large number of people using pet, weapon, 2 x DDs, confuse, stun.

These are the things that make it shine. IMO

Mentalists do the same, but by nature of being backliners with rising dex they are going to get a hell of a lot more demezzes off. And even with pet, weapon, and instas, 80% of the time a bard will be better at interrupting just spamming AOE mez and using amnesia now and then. With none of the risk.

Wed 15 May 2019 4:53 AM by Urzawolf

I don't want mentalist pet charm, I never cared for it and prefer minstrel pet charm, although it should be spammable. If anything they should get a sorcerer pet charm in addition to charm song. This would be exactly like live has been for a while. Oh and let Inconnu be minstrels like on live too.

Wed 15 May 2019 7:17 AM by lurker

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 11:54 PM
lurker wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 7:54 AM
It’s really the mechanics of a minstrels charm that make him OP by the way, not the level of a pet. You and your pet are largely immune to mezz and root if played properly.

A high level pet with large amounts of HP is pretty powerful as it requires some time/effort/coordination to focus it down on the enemy groups part but nothing too difficult to overcome.

Minstrels can demezz themselves, pop MoC, demezz the entire group.

Minstrels can deroot any member of the group if needed.

Minstrels can Interrupt a large number of people using pet, weapon, 2 x DDs, confuse, stun.

These are the things that make it shine. IMO

Mentalists do the same, but by nature of being backliners with rising dex they are going to get a hell of a lot more demezzes off. And even with pet, weapon, and instas, 80% of the time a bard will be better at interrupting just spamming AOE mez and using amnesia now and then. With none of the risk.

I wasn’t comparing minstrel to other classes. Ya there are other good classes/combos out there.