Mastery of Stealth - Phoenix Freeshard

Hi all,

we would like to get your input on this topic.

This has been brought up by the community:

"Can we get Mastery of Stealth for all stealth class instead of See Hidden & True Sight?
The new RA system and patch for stealth was much better. No truesight, no see hidden. MoS for archers and assains. More balanced."

This poll is meant to help us to decide. We would love to get your written feedback for YES as well as NO.

Thanks a bunch!

Sat 7 Apr 2018 6:51 PM by amoz

I'm assuming the intention is to change MoS to the NF version which is why I'm voting NO, but I think something should be done.
NF MoS was not perfect.

Modifies stealth detection and stealth movement. Camouflage counters the Mastery of Stealth bonus, allowing an archer to only be seen at the normal range. Doesn't affect detect hidden classes when they are detecting other detect hidden classes. (Meaning it has no affect on assassins detecting assassins.)

If Archer specs MoS it is well invested vs all other stealthers, if Assasin specs MoS it is basicly wasted points when facing other Assasins.

What about reducing the cooldown of Camouflage from 10 to 1-5 minutes?
Alternatevly you could also reduce radius of See Hidden and/or the cooldown of True Sight.

Sat 7 Apr 2018 8:38 PM by Vivien

We would really appreciate your reason for voting yes or no

hard to get a good picture without

Sat 7 Apr 2018 9:22 PM by Topenga

I have absolutely no experience in stealth classes so I refrain from this vote.

Sat 7 Apr 2018 9:37 PM by Tokajer

I think yes but why then Not NF RA's?

Thats too much customizing . Vivien Theresa should be a survey old RAs ca New RA's

Sat 7 Apr 2018 11:04 PM by Shinyuka

there are reason for both sides imho, so I voted no.. for the sake of as less costumizing as possible.

Sun 8 Apr 2018 2:20 AM by Stimmed

I think See Hidden is busted in its form this patch. I'm not sure just adding MOS and removing SH will fix it. I think just removing SH on its own without changing MOS could be a good bet to. But SH needs a change and this would be a better solution then whats currently in on say Uthgard.

Sun 8 Apr 2018 5:43 AM by Ashman

could not care less about stealthers

still voted no because its nf

Sun 8 Apr 2018 7:34 AM by Mac

I think you should add a 3rd option: I don't know enough about how Stealth works or should work so I wont vote.

Sun 8 Apr 2018 10:28 AM by Mesk

SH is OP and destroy archer
MoS = more mobility and good stealth detection for all = more balanced = more fun for both side

So YES remove SH and TS (for equality) and implement MoS for archer and assasins!!

Sun 8 Apr 2018 4:32 PM by Geek

I play stealth and I approve this message. MoS this thing up I say.

Sun 8 Apr 2018 7:12 PM by Sarerishor

+1 MoS.

Mon 9 Apr 2018 8:53 AM by Jophbot

Never a full time sneak here, so I took the question to a bunch of old mates who were from SI to ToA and beyond. The general consensus was that it improved quality for archers while making assassins seek a broader range of targets because archers were no longer sitting ducks. Meant overall less archers sneak zerging for protection (not so sure on this point, people will group regardless, but I do get the point)... Basically it's a balancing this, so I yes'd.

Mon 9 Apr 2018 3:58 PM by Ashman

after thinking about it id vote yes.

inviting mos bots after the 8mans logged is just too juicy

Mon 9 Apr 2018 7:27 PM by Kralin

The addition of MoS, and removal of SH and TS, appears to be an attempt to balance the playing field. It doesn't appear to hurt either the archer group or assassin group more than the other. That's my understanding, so I voted yes.

Tue 10 Apr 2018 1:05 AM by Isavyr

I think every poll should have clear definitions of what's being asked, otherwise ignorance is bound to taint your data. So here's my ignorance: I'm voting yes, because I hate how the old system marginalized archers, and I believe MoS will even the playing-field a bit more. However, I imagine True Sight/See Hidden is still a problem, or is that a NF thing? I only played my infiltrator around the time realm abilities were introduced, so I don't recall these abilities specifically.

I very much appreciate the devs reaching out to community for feedback. In future, I think it'd be best if there's a notice stating that you're considering a change followed by a post of controlled discussion, followed by a vote. You could even have a poll before-hand, which allows people to access the controlled topic, and then a second vote at the end of the discussion period, to see how people's opinions changed. I imagine (could be wrong!) this would lead to a more informed voter pool, and more likely to reach consensus.

I could be swayed by discussion, but short of that, I imagine weaker stealth in general would be positive across the board. Even when you see where a stealther go invisible a few feet from you, you often cannot find them, even when you run in the right direction. I don't think that's a good mechanic.

Tue 10 Apr 2018 9:54 AM by cptstoni

not one stealther back in the day was complaining about it, it started when stealthers learned about MoS. so to me this is lobbying. clear no.

to give an equivalent. the funny dude who wanned charge on his savage also learned about the "new charge" and wanned it. unfortunately this is not balancing or making any sense in a bigger picture- same goes for MoS

also i am surely going to invite MoS bots into grp when the action is less, wich will end in all stealthers gettin farmed by 8mans, i dont think thats a good thing(even tho i would get rps).

Tue 10 Apr 2018 11:00 AM by Mesk

cptstoni wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Apr 2018 9:54 AM
not one stealther back in the day was complaining about it, it started when stealthers learned about MoS. so to me this is lobbying. clear no.

False, just make a google search with See Hidden... all complains : 2002/2003 ... New RA (with MoS) : 2004
and fyi See Hidden was highly nerf in 2003

Enjoy

Tue 10 Apr 2018 3:21 PM by amoz

Mesk wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Apr 2018 11:00 AM
cptstoni wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Apr 2018 9:54 AM
not one stealther back in the day was complaining about it, it started when stealthers learned about MoS. so to me this is lobbying. clear no.

False, just make a google search with See Hidden... all complains : 2002/2003 ... New RA (with MoS) : 2004
and fyi See Hidden was highly nerf in 2003

Enjoy

Which is why you can nerf it and not replace it with another broken ability. Otherwise get ready for MoS-bots in 8mans

Tue 10 Apr 2018 6:14 PM by Mesk

MoS bots is not a big deal, you can easily avoid it and will probably be not so often.

But MoS is a nice QoL for stealther (= more mobility) and balanced stealth detection for both side.
Imo that change will improved stealth gameplay and fun for who love stealth war...

Wed 11 Apr 2018 12:43 AM by Isavyr

cptstoni wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Apr 2018 9:54 AM
also i am surely going to invite MoS bots into grp when the action is less, wich will end in all stealthers gettin farmed by 8mans, i dont think thats a good thing

This is a good point. I now understand what others meant by MoS-bot. I have two questions:
How far exactly does MoS1-5 allow you to see other stealthers?
Is there really any way to help stealthers see other stealthers better that isn't subject to abuse by 8-man?

I feel like if we want to see a better age of stealth wars, which existed in early times of the game, we should axe both of the following abilities:
True Sight - allows archers to see really far stealth once-per-30m
See Hidden - gives assassins huge unnecessary edge against archers

Not sure if people remember stealth wars before, but they were a lot more engaging for me. I didn't like the introduction of the additional mechanics, which didn't seem to have any clear objective.

Sun 15 Apr 2018 8:42 AM by Thanos

Hey all
I have been playing Hunter on classic serv for years (freeshards mostly, and before that the official before and after TOA).

Back in the time, archers were really powerful, you can find videos where a scout solo is 2 shots people with his bow. It was like this: the critical shots were dealing a LOT of damage. In order to balance that, and after many complaints Mythic brought See Hidden to make them weaker.

It worked but make it not reliable at all. It was the 1.65. Hopefully it didnt last long since the new RA system got released soon after.

What I want to tell here is that See Hidden was brought for a reason: balance the heavy damage an archer was able to do.
It is not the case anymore, the bow damage is not as crazy as it was back then. And because of that, See Hidden is a pain.

I don't advocate for the Mastery of Stealth especially, I mean, it is a good RA and I think it could be a good thing, BUT the real problem comes from See Hidden:
the detection range (900) is INSANE, and make it unplayable. Every archers have to wait for camo to be up... (10 min timer without hitting anyone).
Try to imagine how to go through a gate in Emain without... or even stand on wall more than 1 minute before being spotted.

So please, consider 2 things:
- giving MOS to all stealth classes could solve the problem, 1st assassins could enjoy it aswell because new MOS is really handy.
- nerfing See Hidden at a range of 500: it would nerf it but it would still be an advantage for assassins who could be able to perform their PA if they spot an archer stealthed.

Thanks for reading me. To be honest, even if its not a reliable argument, I have to tell you I won't come back on a classic serv where See Hidden isn't nerfed. I was only able to perform good PVP with a high RR (I was Einherjar on Genesis), but before RR6 or 5, being an Archer was a total pain...

Sun 15 Apr 2018 11:53 AM by amoz

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 11 Apr 2018 12:43 AM
How far exactly does MoS1-5 allow you to see other stealthers?

Movement speed/Detection range
1: 10% / 75
2: 15% / 125
3: 20% / 175
4: 25% / 235
5: 30% / 300
6: 35% / 375
7: 40% / 450
8: 45% / 535
9: 50% / 625
According to http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities
9 levels on Phoenix according to https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42

Mon 16 Apr 2018 3:06 PM by Isavyr

Thanos wrote: ↑
Sun 15 Apr 2018 8:42 AM
I don't advocate for the Mastery of Stealth especially, I mean, it is a good RA and I think it could be a good thing, BUT the real problem comes from See Hidden

...

... I have to tell you I won't come back on a classic serv where See Hidden isn't nerfed. I was only able to perform good PVP with a high RR (I was Einherjar on Genesis), but before RR6 or 5, being an Archer was a total pain...

Thanks for adding to discussion Thanos. I haven't played archer since 2002/2003, and I agree with you. See Hidden is a real negative for archer viability, and the camouflage scheme added unnecessary complication. Reducing See Hidden would be an improvement, but its improving an unnecessary thing. Reminds me of this quote:
"There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all." - Peter Drucker

That being said, I don't mind the lack of archers as an 8-man player because they are very good at interrupting 8-man fights, and getting away clean. I don't like to reward this type of gameplay.

Mon 16 Apr 2018 3:50 PM by Geek

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Apr 2018 3:06 PM
That being said, I don't mind the lack of archers as an 8-man player because they are very good at interrupting 8-man fights, and getting away clean. I don't like to reward this type of gameplay.

All's fair in love and war, including RvR where the enemy is. I don't play as an archer, but it's their right to attack any enemy they see in RvR, even if some 8vs8 is going on. The game was made for realm wars no matter if me as a stealther backstabbing anyone and everyone or a full group doing it's thing or a zerg going nuts or archers picking off any enemy out there.

TLDR: Once you step into the frontiers, you're open game to anyone and everyone.

Tue 17 Apr 2018 7:43 PM by Warjon

I went yes though I'd rather see hidden was just removed.

Sat 5 May 2018 1:07 AM by Ageliah

Vote for NO !!
If SH should be removed, then please camoflage too!
Otherwise, bow classes have a benefit over assassins. I would then find that fair.

Sat 5 May 2018 9:15 PM by Seigmoraig

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 16 Apr 2018 3:06 PM
That being said, I don't mind the lack of archers as an 8-man player because they are very good at interrupting 8-man fights, and getting away clean. I don't like to reward this type of gameplay.

That is a silly point of view. Just because you started a fight with one party doesn't mean that everybody should just back off and let you fight. If you are bothered by stealthers backstabbing/shooting you in the back then... something something prescience node

Mon 14 May 2018 8:11 AM by Haruspex

I voted Yes.

Why:

See Hidden is extremely potent. The only reason people didn't complain about it during when it was active was because they weren't informed. They didn't realize that they were so visible to stealthers because on the surface, Stealth is Stealth. If you look back far enough, you'll even find people not having 50 Composite Stealth because they DID NOT UNDERSTAND how the skill functioned.

I voted yes because this evens the playing field and allows Archers in general to be able to pick their battles just the same as Assassins do.

Fri 25 May 2018 5:41 AM by Chimosh

If the choice is between 1.65 and NF mastery of stealth.

I will choose Mastery of stealth, even if it made it harder for me to pop archers, stealth fights with NF Mastery were much more exciting. What killed the stealth stuff in NF was stealth keep guards, ground triggered aoe masteries and stealth nodes.

Just because something was introduced in NF doesn't make the change bad. Take the good ones, and use them.

Clearly Mastery of stealth worked better than classic.

rr6L2 Infiltrator from MLF server.

Sun 27 May 2018 12:00 AM by Wilfu

RR12 scout here, played for years and i can tell you even with MoS i still would rather not interract with an SB or NS. MoS helped tremendously in keeping myself out of combat through camo. I spent most of my time as the 8v8 disruption. I'd engage in a stealther battle was going on but 99/100 i would avoid fighting other stealthers due to all the inconsistency in those engagements.

MoS was an amazing tool and i loved having it. Also not having to crawl around the field was super fun, being able to keep up with solos or get myself into an advantageous position made the game far more enjoyable.

Tue 29 May 2018 4:39 PM by Draygon

I voted no, MoS for ranged sure but for Melee I dont see a purpose of having them be able to move faster. They deal too much damage as is and to be able to move faster makes that potential increase.

Wed 30 May 2018 3:37 AM by kpax

NF Version would make the stealth game definetly more balanced and way more fun then it would be with old ra version. So definetly yes to New Ra Version !

Thu 21 Jun 2018 7:47 PM by Luferous

MOS is crucial for myself to enjoy the game as a stealther. I prefer as another poster said being able to stay camo as a hunter and pick my target. As it stands, archer classes are much more difficult to play and compete with assasins.

This is my opinion only of course.

Fri 29 Jun 2018 4:59 PM by Bobbahunter

What if the Radius was reduced by 25%? but leave the speed alone. I would still put points in this just for moving from point A to B quicker in stealth which means more chances of finding people. It takes 20+ minutes to run from one end of the map to the other in stealth only to find its dead and then head out to try the other spot. Maybe you could make MOS help with detection from Mobs also?

Tue 3 Jul 2018 1:20 AM by goten9033

now you need to do a vote on archers getting physical defense.....

Wed 4 Jul 2018 5:32 PM by Gohanz

MoS was a must for a melee archer, See hidden meant that you ate a PA every time.

Wed 4 Jul 2018 6:46 PM by

Uthred

Read our stealther changes ---> https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607.

Thu 5 Jul 2018 1:11 AM by Rauder

Mesk wrote: ↑
Sun 8 Apr 2018 10:28 AM
SH is OP and destroy archer
MoS = more mobility and good stealth detection for all = more balanced = more fun for both side

So YES remove SH and TS (for equality) and implement MoS for archer and assasins!!

I agree completely

Fri 6 Jul 2018 12:57 PM by Thanos

Why have you choose such a custom set?

Stealthers Seeing Others in Stealth
Assuming stealth skill is at 50

Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250.
Assassins see Minstrels at a range of 250.
Archers see assassins at a range of 125.
Archers see other archers at a range of 125.
Archers see Minstrels at a range of 125.
Minstrels see assassins at a range of 125.
Minstrels see archers at a range of 125.
Minstrels see other Minstrels at a range of 125.

This is pure non sense. Now archers are even more weak than they were before with the camo ability!

Why don't you let a chance to melee archers or hybrid one? It will be impossible for them to challenge assassins because they can't detect them, even more they still can be perfed. Actually, the point of the MOS new RA IS to let a chance to every stealther (ass/arch/mins) who wants to put realm point in the RA.

Now you have 2 things:
- the new detection system won't change: archers can't detect others
- the RA MOS is useless. Why do you think people have voted for the new RA, its not to make it the same than the old RA: just the speed is useless, and I guarantee you no one will waste point in it (as it was beforee with the old RA actually!)

Really I don't understand, 2/3 player advocate for the new RA MOS, and you make it like the old RA.

Fri 6 Jul 2018 2:49 PM by Glimmer

Thanos wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 12:57 PM
Why have you choose such a custom set?

Stealthers Seeing Others in Stealth
Assuming stealth skill is at 50
Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250.
Assassins see Minstrels at a range of 250.
Archers see assassins at a range of 125.
Archers see other archers at a range of 125.
Archers see Minstrels at a range of 125.
Minstrels see assassins at a range of 125.
Minstrels see archers at a range of 125.
Minstrels see other Minstrels at a range of 125.

This is pure non sense. Now archers are even more weak than they were before with the camo ability!

Why don't you let a chance to melee archers or hybrid one? It will be impossible for them to challenge assassins because they can't detect them, even more they still can be perfed. Actually, the point of the MOS new RA IS to let a chance to every stealther (ass/arch/mins) who wants to put realm point in the RA.

Now you have 2 things:
- the new detection system won't change: archers can't detect others
- the RA MOS is useless. Why do you think people have voted for the new RA, its not to make it the same than the old RA: just the speed is useless, and I guarantee you no one will waste point in it (as it was beforee with the old RA actually!)

Really I don't understand, 2/3 player advocate for the new RA MOS, and you make it like the old RA.

I agree with you Thanos. Keep OF or NF version(Voted for NF version) of MoS. Current version is rly bad option from my point of view.
Just my 2 cents

Fri 6 Jul 2018 3:48 PM by chois

totally agree too, these changements are pure non sense, how to destruct a class fun to play..... already with old ra an archer saw nothing yet but there without camo no interest to play this class, a real pity

Fri 6 Jul 2018 5:18 PM by

gruenesschaf

The detection distances are the defaults without see hidden and without MoS. Archer detection range wasn't changed at all, in fact nothing was changed except the removal of see hidden and camouflage.

All camo did was counter see hidden which has been removed, no point to have it. There is literally no nerf to archers, quite to the contrary, since you no longer have to wait for your camo cd to not be a sitting duck.

And wrt MoS not being worth the points when it's only movement speed, that's exactly why it no longer is an ra but gained for free via stealth spec.

Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:02 PM by l00ri

Destruct a fun class to play ? This ruleset without Camouflage/See Hidden is pure Archer Love, they still have true sight and they can't be perfed permanently via See Hidden while Assassins have a really hard time to avoid Stealtherzerg without See hidden.

Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:14 PM by Glimmer

l00ri wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:02 PM
Destruct a fun class to play ? This ruleset without Camouflage/See Hidden is pure Archer Love, they still have true sight and they can't be perfed permanently via See Hidden while Assassins have a really hard time to avoid Stealtherzerg without See hidden.

True Sight also got removed.

Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:22 PM by Ganaka

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 5:18 PM
The detection distances are the defaults without see hidden and without MoS. Archer detection range wasn't changed at all, in fact nothing was changed except the removal of see hidden and camouflage.

All camo did was counter see hidden which has been removed, no point to have it. There is literally no nerf to archers, quite to the contrary, since you no longer have to wait for your camo cd to not be a sitting duck.

And wrt MoS not being worth the points when it's only movement speed, that's exactly why it no longer is an ra but gained for free via stealth spec.

This should be repeated every time someone complains that attacking at range, from stealth, is too hard...

Fri 6 Jul 2018 9:03 PM by l00ri

Glimmer wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:14 PM
l00ri wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 7:02 PM
Destruct a fun class to play ? This ruleset without Camouflage/See Hidden is pure Archer Love, they still have true sight and they can't be perfed permanently via See Hidden while Assassins have a really hard time to avoid Stealtherzerg without See hidden.

True Sight also got removed.

I like ;-)

Sat 7 Jul 2018 8:34 AM by amoz

Thanos wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 12:57 PM
This is pure non sense. Now archers are even more weak than they were before with the camo ability!

That is pure nonsense. With camo (and SH) you would had this table

Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250 with camo.
Assassins see archers at a range of 800 without camo

Sat 7 Jul 2018 1:24 PM by Ganaka

amoz wrote: ↑
Sat 7 Jul 2018 8:34 AM
Thanos wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Jul 2018 12:57 PM
This is pure non sense. Now archers are even more weak than they were before with the camo ability!

That is pure nonsense. With camo (and SH) you would had this table

Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250 with camo.
Assassins see archers at a range of 800 without camo

Math is hard!

Sat 7 Jul 2018 5:15 PM by Thanos

Thanks for support.

I know, it seems a bit arrogant to argue for a point of view without invest myself more into the build of the serv...

But as a player point of view, which is not nothing, the accurate custom set is useless and a bit paradoxal.

You should consider:
- let the old RA MOS, with See Hidden but nerfed (500 for example instead of 900!) and Camo of course.

- implement the new RA MOS, and remove See Hidden and Camo.

Here we got something quite unbalanced which does not let a chance for a balanced stealth war

Tue 10 Jul 2018 4:05 PM by Twizzy

Vivien wrote: ↑
Sat 7 Apr 2018 6:12 PM
Hi all,

we would like to get your input on this topic.

This has been brought up by the community:

"Can we get Mastery of Stealth for all stealth class instead of See Hidden & True Sight?
The new RA system and patch for stealth was much better. No truesight, no see hidden. MoS for archers and assains. More balanced."

This poll is meant to help us to decide. We would love to get your written feedback for YES as well as NO.

Thanks a bunch!

I was able to see a stealther all the way under a bridge probably 20+yards away easy. not sure if its because Detect Hidden and she had lower lvl stealth? but i felt it was a bit OP, if she had detect hidden I wonder if it would have been a different story, although I couldnt kill her solo - she had higher poison and better armor at the time. if i would have been geared up I'm sure it would have been the other way around and worse as I would have been able to see her from the other side of the bridge in thid.

Wed 11 Jul 2018 7:10 AM by Joc

Twizzy wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Jul 2018 4:05 PM
Vivien wrote: ↑
Sat 7 Apr 2018 6:12 PM
Hi all,

we would like to get your input on this topic.

This has been brought up by the community:

"Can we get Mastery of Stealth for all stealth class instead of See Hidden & True Sight?
The new RA system and patch for stealth was much better. No truesight, no see hidden. MoS for archers and assains. More balanced."

This poll is meant to help us to decide. We would love to get your written feedback for YES as well as NO.

Thanks a bunch!

I was able to see a stealther all the way under a bridge probably 20+yards away easy. not sure if its because Detect Hidden and she had lower lvl stealth? but i felt it was a bit OP, if she had detect hidden I wonder if it would have been a different story, although I couldnt kill her solo - she had higher poison and better armor at the time. if i would have been geared up I'm sure it would have been the other way around and worse as I would have been able to see her from the other side of the bridge in thid.

Without the spec of you or said person there isn't enough info here to make a conclusion.

Example: You're 50 stealth and they are 1 stealth (many people dont spec stealth while exping or farming even if they venture into to an rvr zone for something). In this scenario you SHOULD see him an incredible distance away. Totally guessing, but probably over 2k units.

If you are both equal stealth then you shouldn't be able to see him at an incredible distance.

Maybe he has only 30 stealth? Maybe 20? Point is, the only way to test range is to know the variables. Especially when it comes to things such as stealth detection.

Maybe the dev's can set something up to test the ranges for us. I know the range with equal stealth/level between assassins is supposed to be 125 or 250, I forget. Maybe we can get some tests to verify those numbers?

Maybe if we get an instant 50 during beta we can set something up.

Wed 11 Jul 2018 11:19 AM by zeph

Ranges for stealth detection are

If none or both players have detect hidden
range = (levelDiff * 25) + 125

If one player has detect hidden and the other one doesn't
range = (levelDiff * 50) + 250

levelDiff means
Your stealth level - Enemy stealth level

Stealth level caps at 50 and levelDiff cannot be negative

See Hidden (which was removed)
range = 2700 - 38 * Enemy Stealth Level

Wed 11 Jul 2018 11:50 AM by Ceen

New MoS for everyone like in NF would be better imo.
In NF MoS you spend the points you can see assasins early enough to get a shot of.
It doesn't matter if assasins see you at 700 or 250 units, they still find you of guard and without camo they will do it at a 100% rate ^^

Thu 12 Jul 2018 5:34 PM by Moondragon

I voted MOS for all.

Background: I've extensively played Hunter (pre-ToA), Ranger (classic + other freeshard), Infiltrator (other freeshard version 2.0). See Hidden and Truesight are terrible RA abilities because of it's ON/OFF and absolute value (works at clipping range) mechanics. To counter it, Mythic introduced camoflauge but it didn't work well.

I never minded that assassins had some detection advantage over archers, or perhaps they moved a bit faster in stealth. They give range for those benefits.

Finally, MoS variables can be modified later on if you find they need fine tuning, whereas See Hidden and Truesight are pretty much set in stone as to how they work. Please dump See Hidden and Truesight and go with a passive RA buff that can be fine tuned for balance purposes.

Thu 19 Jul 2018 3:17 AM by Cirath

I'm still amazed at how little people who supposedly play stealthers actually know about the mechanics that affect their classes, e.g. thinking camo provided any benefit to avoiding detection beyond negating see hidden. As has been pointed out, this ruleset simply sets detection distances for all classes to their base values, exactly as they were BEFORE see hidden and truesight were introduced. Here, MOS as a skill obtained by speccing stealth provides a small boost in movement speed (most players will see 22 or 25%), which is available to all classes which can train stealth.

I don't understand why archers are complaining about this rule set, it's a major win for them. No longer do they need to worry about camo timers. 250 units is a very short distance to detect a character that can attack from a range of almost 10 times that. Still, I don't think it's a bad solution and is worth a try.

As usual, the real winners here are minstrels. (But really, when aren't they at this patch level?). They no longer need to worry about see hidden, and will have stealth every bit as effective as an archer. The combination of speed 6 and archer level stealth is an extreme advantage held by no other class. I didn't think it was possible to make minstrels MORE powerful in the solo/smallman game at this patchlevel. Unfortunately, it looks like I was wrong...

Thu 19 Jul 2018 12:43 PM by Numatic

Honestly, detecting other stealth classes should be solely based off of stealth spec and level. Which means 2 lvl 50s with 50 stealth spec should see each other at the exact same distance. Archer or not. Assassins have the upper hand in straight melee combat. Archers have the advantage of picking someone out of a crowd during a fight without having to be in the thick of it. Assassins are at a greater risk in that department so I beleive it evens out.

Edit: And if a minstrel specs in 50 stealth, hes going to be at a disadvantage in combat.

Thu 19 Jul 2018 2:56 PM by Cirath

Are you talking base stealth spec or composite stealth spec? they are two very different things. At higher realm ranks it is quite easy for all stealth classes, including minstrels to reach 50 composite stealth. The majority of minstrel dps comes from their shouts and/or pets anyways. Most spec slash and use amethyst slash (29 spec anytime). Im guessing a typical spec with free autotrain will be 50 instruments, 33 stealth, 30 slash. This gives them everything they want and 50 comp stealth by RR7. They don't have to give up much at all to spec high in stealth.

Detect distances based purely off of stealth spec obviously favor archers and minstrels. It significantly lowers the chances that an assassin can find them and engage them in melee, (advantage assassin) while having no effect on their ability to engage targets at range.

Its all about the size of a stealther's engagement window, i.e. the ability of said class to engage a target once located. It depends on the movement speed of the stealther, the movement speed and direction of travel of the target, and the range at which tge stealther can succesfully attack. Assassins have by far the smallest engagement window, as they must move into melee range of a target while stealthed to execute a CS opener. Archers have a larger engagement window due to bow range, and minstrels have often an unlimited window with ranged CC and speed 6

Thu 19 Jul 2018 3:07 PM by heardstheword

Cirath wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Jul 2018 2:56 PM
Detect distances based purely off of stealth spec obviously favor archers and minstrels. It significantly lowers the chances that an assassin can find them and engage them in melee, (advantage assassin) while having no effect on their ability to engage targets at range.

If you look at how the server handles this, Assassins actually have the advantage of a longer base detection distance.

https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607

Assuming 50 comb spec stealth for everyone:
Assassins see other assassins at a range of 125.
Assassins see archers at a range of 250.
Assassins see minstrels at a range of 250.
Archers see assassins at a range of 125.
Archers see other archers at a range of 125.
Archers see minstrels at a range of 125.
Minstrels see assassins at a range of 125.
Minstrels see archers at a range of 125.
Minstrels see other minstrels at a range of 125.

Thu 19 Jul 2018 5:07 PM by Cirath

Yes I am aware that assasins have a 125 unit detection advantage on this server, because of the skill detect hidden, I was responding to Numatic's suggestion that only stealth skill should effect stealth detection. I should have been more clear. However, I don't think that 125 unit advantage will be enough for balance purposes. See hidden was put in the game to combat the numbers of archers killing folks with near impunity through the combination of range attacks and highly effective stealth. It gave archers and minstrels something to worry about. Was it too effective at clip range? yes. Is a more reasonable value like the 1000 unit range it was later reduced to more reasonable? in my mind yes. Maybe 1000 is too far here, maybe something less would be better, but based on classic experiences I think we have already seen that 250 is too short to have a meaningful effect.

Fri 20 Jul 2018 12:57 AM by Numatic

Cirath wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Jul 2018 5:07 PM
Yes I am aware that assasins have a 125 unit detection advantage on this server, because of the skill detect hidden, I was responding to Numatic's suggestion that only stealth skill should effect stealth detection. I should have been more clear. However, I don't think that 125 unit advantage will be enough for balance purposes. See hidden was put in the game to combat the numbers of archers killing folks with near impunity through the combination of range attacks and highly effective stealth. It gave archers and minstrels something to worry about. Was it too effective at clip range? yes. Is a more reasonable value like the 1000 unit range it was later reduced to more reasonable? in my mind yes. Maybe 1000 is too far here, maybe something less would be better, but based on classic experiences I think we have already seen that 250 is too short to have a meaningful effect.

My bad. I was under the wrong impression. What I meant was that I believed they should see each other at the same distance with similar stealth spec and level (meaning the same radius). But I was wrongly under the impression that assasins could "see" other non assasins faster. Rather than having a larger radius. I thought I read somewhere that stealth detection "pulsed" and that assasins pulsed more frequently. Guess I was wrong.

Tue 31 Jul 2018 8:25 PM by Thanos

Any change planned for the MOS RA?

As I said, it would be way more balanced if it was the new RA, for speed and detection.

At this current state, things are set and cannot be changed regarding the Realm rank. it is sad!

Wed 1 Aug 2018 12:31 AM by Hanshi

i say no reasons.
1 If archer has camo up no amount of mos will have any effect. However if archer has hi mos(either by spec or stealth lvl) he has distinct advantage
2 Having mos go by stealth lvl gives advantage to those with more spec points. Having spec in mos RA rewards pvp. See Hidden is useful, as is truesight. However if 1 is gone so should the other.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 12:50 AM by Quik

So correct me if I am wrong, but MoS will basically be determined strictly by Stealth level? Not + items or anything? So a stealthier with 50 stealth will see a stealthier with 45 stealth a little sooner?

To me that is how it should be and it should be based on how many points you want to spend. If you want the best chance to surprise someone then max the points, but if the player you are surprising went max envenom or weapon they might still kick your arse because they maxed a different skill.

It really doesn't need to be complicated, the higher your stealth the better you are.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 12:56 AM by Ganaka

Unless something has changed on Pheonix... Mastery of Stealth only Increases movement speed while stealthed. It has nothing to do with detection.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 6:56 AM by l00ri

I think it should stay the way it is right now.
Archers got a little bit of love without See Hidden/Camou and the 250/125 detection radius is very small.
Also there is no way of playing a "MoS-Bot" for any of the Stealthclasses without high MoS detection Range, See Hidden and True Sight.
MoS-Speed is also a very nice change compared to Uthgard.

Only downside: Already OP Minstrels got buffed a lot with the change.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 9:00 PM by Cirath

after a few weeks of testing this I am going to stay with my previous assesment. The 125/250 detect ranges are quite small. assassin vs assassin detection feels about right and balanced. Assasin vs archer detection seems like it may be a bit too small. it is very difficult still to find an archer even in a confined space like DF. In the frontiers, and with an archer's ranged ability it becomes almost impossible. This goes double for minstrels. I would suggest bumping the bonus granted by detect hidden from 125 to 250.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 9:02 PM by Cirath

l00ri wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Aug 2018 6:56 AM
Only downside: Already OP Minstrels got buffed a lot with the change.

Agree 100%. was the first ramification that came to mind when I was looking at server mechanics a month ago.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:56 AM by Ceen

Cirath wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Aug 2018 9:00 PM
after a few weeks of testing this I am going to stay with my previous assesment. The 125/250 detect ranges are quite small. assassin vs assassin detection feels about right and balanced. Assasin vs archer detection seems like it may be a bit too small. it is very difficult still to find an archer even in a confined space like DF. In the frontiers, and with an archer's ranged ability it becomes almost impossible. This goes double for minstrels. I would suggest bumping the bonus granted by detect hidden from 125 to 250.

No imo its working as intended. If you increase the range we will end up with no archer server again.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 10:36 AM by Thanos

Agree. Archers need some survivability. YOu are still able to perf an archer if you ran accross one.

On the contrary, mins deserve to be nerfed a bit on this one: they should not be on the same level than archers.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 1:04 PM by Cirath

I am ok with no changes being made, I just think an increase would be more balanced. Why were see hidden and truesight added to the game in the 1st place? Because 125/250 unit detection distances gave such a miniscule chance of finding archers in the frontiers it allowed them to kill with near impunity.

Fri 3 Aug 2018 5:10 AM by Zansobar

Thanos wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 10:36 AM
Agree. Archers need some survivability. YOu are still able to perf an archer if you ran accross one.

On the contrary, mins deserve to be nerfed a bit on this one: they should not be on the same level than archers.

Yeah I agree, Minstrels should be on a lower tier of MoS - maybe it's Assassins see Minstrels at 375 units, while Archers see Minstrels at 250 units, and Minstrels see Archers and Assassins at 125 units.

Fri 3 Aug 2018 10:36 AM by Thanos

Cirath wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 1:04 PM
I am ok with no changes being made, I just think an increase would be more balanced. Why were see hidden and truesight added to the game in the 1st place? Because 125/250 unit detection distances gave such a miniscule chance of finding archers in the frontiers it allowed them to kill with near impunity.

Nop.
They put that because archers were at that time overpowered. You can see some videos when scouts 2 shots people...
Its not the case anymore so See Hidden has no reason to be

Sun 5 Aug 2018 2:15 PM by Laadna

In my opinion, there is no reason minstrels could get MoS.

Sat 18 Aug 2018 10:52 AM by rAYMON

Minstrels with mos *rofl* that would be unfair as hell.

Sat 18 Aug 2018 12:18 PM by Ganaka

Put me on the side that doesn't think Minstrels should get MoS. They don't need any buffs.

Sat 18 Aug 2018 1:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Limit Minstrels to leather armor and take away climb walls and bam! They're balanced. That's pretty much all that is needed.

Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:40 PM by Qri

yes, please bring the new RA MoS system with realm points to spend.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:08 PM by Sloopy

I want the new RA Mastery of Shadows. You need to invest some Realm Points into your sneaking abilities to really benefit from it. Archers are pretty useless with this range ... : (

Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:27 AM by jelzinga_EU

Thanos wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 10:36 AM
Agree. Archers need some survivability. YOu are still able to perf an archer if you ran accross one.

On the contrary, mins deserve to be nerfed a bit on this one: they should not be on the same level than archers.

Minstrels got a free gift on Phoenix with the fact they're added to MoS. To be honest, the Phoenix-MoS is only speed and no detection so it is not a big deal. You also have to remember that minstrels have to give up stuff in order to get (near) composite-50 Stealth ; typically a minstrel will not have 50 Stealth; so you will have at least a couple of hundreds detection range advantage on them.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:29 PM by imissswg

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:27 AM
Thanos wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 10:36 AM
Agree. Archers need some survivability. YOu are still able to perf an archer if you ran accross one.

On the contrary, mins deserve to be nerfed a bit on this one: they should not be on the same level than archers.

Minstrels got a free gift on Phoenix with the fact they're added to MoS. To be honest, the Phoenix-MoS is only speed and no detection so it is not a big deal. You also have to remember that minstrels have to give up stuff in order to get (near) composite-50 Stealth ; typically a minstrel will not have 50 Stealth; so you will have at least a couple of hundreds detection range advantage on them.

I only dabbled with a Minstrel in RvR back in the day, but honestly, I don't remember using my weapon much when I did. I don't think it will be too gimping to get a composite 50 stealth...especially for a high RR Minstrel.

No MoS for Minstrels, please.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:10 AM by Leith

I voted yes, but for the system as it is right now. You get OF MoS with the corresponding skill in stealth. It only made you run faster in stealth, so no really harm for anyone.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:30 AM by Cadebrennus

Thanos wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Aug 2018 10:36 AM
Cirath wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 1:04 PM
I am ok with no changes being made, I just think an increase would be more balanced. Why were see hidden and truesight added to the game in the 1st place? Because 125/250 unit detection distances gave such a miniscule chance of finding archers in the frontiers it allowed them to kill with near impunity.

Nop.
They put that because archers were at that time overpowered. You can see some videos when scouts 2 shots people...
Its not the case anymore so See Hidden has no reason to be

They were "overpowered" at the time because a few Scouts were using buffbots and no one else was.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 8:06 PM by Senti

It will be good to stop doing the brave when minstrel finally gets a moving mos!
It's still hib and mid that criticizes the character alb!
You already kill the minstrels with the nerve of the charm, we went on the server with so-called 'small modification' to change such a thing as the version is almost more in 1.65 I find it a shame not to respect daoc as it is must .

Fri 21 Sep 2018 8:58 AM by jelzinga_EU

Senti wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Sep 2018 8:06 PM
It will be good to stop doing the brave when minstrel finally gets a moving mos!
It's still hib and mid that criticizes the character alb!
You already kill the minstrels with the nerve of the charm, we went on the server with so-called 'small modification' to change such a thing as the version is almost more in 1.65 I find it a shame not to respect daoc as it is must .

Minstrel already has the MoS on Phoenix (since introduction of Phoenix). I don't think it is still Hib / Mid that criticize the minstrel; most people playing here during beta have played all 3 realms in the past.

To be fair, the current MoS has no impact on balance whatsoever for minstrels, except making them less attractive when they do not have it. So, if your goal is to "annoy others" then no MoS for minstrel makes sense, any other decision is just silly. It doesn't make them hit harder or hide from other stealthers better, it is merely a QoL thing for stealthers to be able to move at a slightly faster than snail speed.

Fri 21 Sep 2018 6:34 PM by Senti

Sorry, I use google translation which is not necessarily well translated.

I said that it is good MOS on the minstrel to move and that is the least of the things since the minstrel this already take a fart nerve and I feel that it will continue ...

Sat 22 Sep 2018 12:53 PM by ecopli

YES Win, good news

Sat 22 Sep 2018 1:50 PM by Zansobar

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Sep 2018 8:58 AM
Senti wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Sep 2018 8:06 PM
It will be good to stop doing the brave when minstrel finally gets a moving mos!
It's still hib and mid that criticizes the character alb!
You already kill the minstrels with the nerve of the charm, we went on the server with so-called 'small modification' to change such a thing as the version is almost more in 1.65 I find it a shame not to respect daoc as it is must .

Minstrel already has the MoS on Phoenix (since introduction of Phoenix). I don't think it is still Hib / Mid that criticize the minstrel; most people playing here during beta have played all 3 realms in the past.

To be fair, the current MoS has no impact on balance whatsoever for minstrels, except making them less attractive when they do not have it. So, if your goal is to "annoy others" then no MoS for minstrel makes sense, any other decision is just silly. It doesn't make them hit harder or hide from other stealthers better, it is merely a QoL thing for stealthers to be able to move at a slightly faster than snail speed.

Though technically true (that MOS currently has no effect on detection range) that is only the case because all stealthers get MOS and the different MOS levels do not (yet, I presume) affect detection range. However, if they removed MOS from Minstrels (as I believe they should) this would need to change and the detection range between the other stealthers with MOS and Minstrels without it would have to increase, dramatically.

Mon 24 Sep 2018 1:35 PM by Chaskha

Interesting read:
detection mechanics
detection formula

The pulse detection mechanics would explain why sometimes a dude detects my hunter and seem locked on it no matter how quick I run away, if the pulse is random between 1-3s, 3s in duration would be way enough to come and hit me no matter which direction I try to run away.
Did I understand it correctly though?

Thu 27 Sep 2018 7:55 PM by mikkyo

of mos concerns just the movingspeed with active stealth. its fair to give this to every stealthy class.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 2:45 AM by TeamKnar

I like some of the custom changes being made here, but this is one I'd prefer to be left as is.

Originally, classes were not intended to have a simple balance of power between them, but rather a complex mesh of abilities that work well in some situations, but not so well in others.

One of the compensations for the current stealth arrangement is that archers can deal death at long range. Assassins, mostly, have to be in melee range to achieve a kill.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 3:32 AM by Waygone

TeamKnar wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 2:45 AM
I like some of the custom changes being made here, but this is one I'd prefer to be left as is.

Originally, classes were not intended to have a simple balance of power between them, but rather a complex mesh of abilities that work well in some situations, but not so well in others.

One of the compensations for the current stealth arrangement is that archers can deal death at long range. Assassins, mostly, have to be in melee range to achieve a kill.

With the latest nerf to an already weak weapon type, most of the deaths dealing from long range done by an archer is there own.
Literally, an archers best tactic now is to leach RPs on engaged enemies. They have very little chance in a 1v1 scenario with equal gear, ability, and RR. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong with this.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 8:30 AM by TeamKnar

I just heard an archer say they got 4L0 in 2 days, so it can't be all bad.

Fri 28 Sep 2018 3:19 PM by Waygone

TeamKnar wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 8:30 AM
I just heard an archer say they got 4L0 in 2 days, so it can't be all bad.

That was xmuscout. I got to 3L6 in 3 days on my necro. And that was starting at L 40, farming XP items, and rvr tasking. You put time into it, and know what you're doing, and even a paladin could achieve rr4 in a couple days starting at 50.

Fri 5 Oct 2018 8:56 AM by inoeth

TeamKnar wrote: ↑
Fri 28 Sep 2018 8:30 AM
I just heard an archer say they got 4L0 in 2 days, so it can't be all bad.

easy with rvr tasks, you dont even have to kill someone... just die in the task area lol nothing to do with archers being strong or something

vote for nf mos for all but minstrel

Sat 20 Oct 2018 3:22 AM by Tristaluna

Yes if you fix it, now stealth is broken and useless

Fri 1 Mar 2019 7:28 AM by Niget

I voted yes!
It will balance the playing field better assassins and archers!
Archers will likely take mos to 9 to be able to maybe get a shot off before the melee encounter!

Fri 1 Mar 2019 7:30 AM by Fk_

Nice necropost~

Fri 1 Mar 2019 1:46 PM by Anaethema

Locked - necro post