BM / Merc Shield Slam, perhaps reduce to 5 secs

Started 11 Oct 2018
by jelzinga_EU
in Open Community Votes
Currently with the easy switch-macro you see every merc/BM spec 42 Shield for Slam. Slam target, switch to DW/CD and goto town on the victim. And while I understand Shield-spec is an investment, it feels like it reduces the usefulness of heavy-tanks.

There is currently almost no reason to run Hero over a BM in any scenario. BM does better DPS, has Advanced Evade which causes him to be harder to peel, has the same 9 sec stun, etc. Even the reduced RA-costs for heavy-tanks went to light-tanks too.

I think a lot of people aren't happy with the 9 sec stun on light-tanks, perhaps it is an idea to reduce Slam for light-tanks (and light-tanks only!) to ~5 seconds?
Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:34 AM by Druth
Would be a good change.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:55 AM by vitu
yes please
Thu 11 Oct 2018 12:33 PM by florin
perhaps make tanks tankier ?
Thu 11 Oct 2018 12:57 PM by Kaziera
Not really. Hero arms and warrior are the toughest nuts to crack in this game as is
Thu 11 Oct 2018 2:21 PM by relvinian
Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 12:57 PM
Not really. Hero arms and warrior are the toughest nuts to crack in this game as is

Yep, when train is on them arms dies in 3.2 seconds and merc dies in 3.0 seconds.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 2:36 PM by Cadebrennus
Mercs and BMs just got hit with the nerfbat...

"dual wield now reduces block and evade chance by 1/4 (down from 1/2)"
https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2448

... and you want to hit them with another nerfbat already?
Thu 11 Oct 2018 4:42 PM by yallia
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 2:36 PM
Mercs and BMs just got hit with the nerfbat...

"dual wield now reduces block and evade chance by 1/4 (down from 1/2)"
https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2448

... and you want to hit them with another nerfbat already?

BMs and mercs are actually the 2 dual wielders least affected by this change.

Back to topic, yes I do think it'd be a good change.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:43 PM by Ceen
Definately
Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:55 PM by Joc
I vote to give everyone one of those neon pool noodles so we can all run around whacking each other in the face.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:29 PM by Ganaka
Moar Powah!
Thu 11 Oct 2018 8:43 PM by Bigga
yes, make Slam for Lighttanks 9 sec, but on 50 Spec in Shield! or let it like it is on 42 ... but then 5 sec
Thu 11 Oct 2018 9:31 PM by jelzinga_EU
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 2:36 PM
Mercs and BMs just got hit with the nerfbat...

"dual wield now reduces block and evade chance by 1/4 (down from 1/2)"
https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2448

... and you want to hit them with another nerfbat already?

Yeah. No matter how you look at it, that nerf still leaves dualwielders ahead of heavies in terms of defense penetration. So they still have more offense (DPS, both in damage-numbers as in defense-penetration) and benefit from most of the heavy stuff (Stoicism, cheap Purge/IP). Especially on Hib the BM is better than Hero in almost anything in RvR. Therefore I think its time to consider this. I rather not give heavies higher magic-resists like on live as that would be insane on current patch, so rather than buffing heavies even more, I think the best step forward is to tone down light-tanks. Not further in damage or survivability, but merely on Slam-duration so there is at least something a heavy does better.

Since Ice-storm is also 5 secs it might make BM's spec higher Parry or dual-weapons (e.g. Pierce + Blades) and rely on their positional stun rather than currently where it is anytime and better (longer) duration.
Thu 11 Oct 2018 10:30 PM by cortexqc
on the same way you can :
Divide all mezz by 1/2 (cause it's really long when you take a full timer mezz)
Divide caster stun by 1/2 (cause hib caster can kill every one on one stun)
Make stealth a timer skill to force them to appear sometimes ! cause we cant find stealther
we can continue like this for more skills.

i don't like to be focus slammed and killed by 2 or more player but shield spec is fine it's the game... offensive class like BM mercenary have to sacrifice some point on weapons specs or survivability (parry) to up 42 shield to only have the slam benefit.. light tank class with shield spec are designed to can reach 42 with little sacrifice defensive/offensive. they can't reach 50 without unbalancing the class and be really uneficient...

Exemple albion :
Mercenary : 50 DW 50shield / 28slash ! 6 parry ! no defense really low weapons
Paladin : 49 chants 50 shield / 29 slash (lucky one!) 9 parry ! paladin hit like a mouse even with 42 shield rest weapons...
Reaver : 50 flex 50 shield / 28 soulrending ! 6 parry ! really bad soulrending and no parry
Armsman : 50 pole 50 shield / 28 slash ! 6 parry ! low weapons no parry.

We can continue like this for all melee class and it's the same problem (warrior less impact cause they spec on only 1 spec for 1 and 2 hand).

So you really want to nerf a central spec for much class and force them to go 50 shield ??
Second way :
slam put to 5s ? yes slam 9s is powerfull skill but he need 42 point on a sub spec not giving other benefit for all melee shield spec class!

put anytime stun 9s at 50 ok but if you do this you have to put other anytime 5s skill at very low shield spec like 23 or 29 not at 42!
This way all melee class with shield line be able to have a better offensive build with a lesser stun.

Stop crying for a nerf about a spell/skill you don't like and start to think about all the impact of a big nerf like this on the Daoc class ecosystem.
this kind of nerf are not like nerfing a spell for a unique class. (charm for minst)
it change 10 class gameplay build. 30% of the class...
Fri 12 Oct 2018 2:47 AM by Magesty
Light tanks' easy access to slam wouldn't be a bad thing to consider changing-- whether through nerfing the duration or another method. Mercenaries and Blademasters are currently way over-represented and every single one of them has slam. They straight up outclass every other melee in their current state, and I don't think it is even a question. With the way weapon spec affects damage here it is a stretch to say they are really sacrificing much of anything to get it. Sure, they are losing some parry, but parry is one of the worst skill lines to invest points into that exists in this game.

This is a change that would bring them back in line with other classes and increase the overall diversity in both small mans and 8 mans. They will still have the highest average melee DPS, very high health pools, extremely high weaponskill, prevent flight, 3W/DT, and stoicism. They really don't need easy access to the most powerful melee control ability on top of all of that.
Fri 12 Oct 2018 5:30 AM by jelzinga_EU
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 10:30 PM
on the same way you can :
Divide all mezz by 1/2 (cause it's really long when you take a full timer mezz)
Divide caster stun by 1/2 (cause hib caster can kill every one on one stun)
Make stealth a timer skill to force them to appear sometimes ! cause we cant find stealther
we can continue like this for more skills.

i don't like to be focus slammed and killed by 2 or more player but shield spec is fine it's the game... offensive class like BM mercenary have to sacrifice some point on weapons specs or survivability (parry) to up 42 shield to only have the slam benefit.. light tank class with shield spec are designed to can reach 42 with little sacrifice defensive/offensive. they can't reach 50 without unbalancing the class and be really uneficient...

Exemple albion :
Mercenary : 50 DW 50shield / 28slash ! 6 parry ! no defense really low weapons
Paladin : 49 chants 50 shield / 29 slash (lucky one!) 9 parry ! paladin hit like a mouse even with 42 shield rest weapons...
Reaver : 50 flex 50 shield / 28 soulrending ! 6 parry ! really bad soulrending and no parry
Armsman : 50 pole 50 shield / 28 slash ! 6 parry ! low weapons no parry.

We can continue like this for all melee class and it's the same problem (warrior less impact cause they spec on only 1 spec for 1 and 2 hand).

So you really want to nerf a central spec for much class and force them to go 50 shield ??
Second way :
slam put to 5s ? yes slam 9s is powerfull skill but he need 42 point on a sub spec not giving other benefit for all melee shield spec class!

put anytime stun 9s at 50 ok but if you do this you have to put other anytime 5s skill at very low shield spec like 23 or 29 not at 42!
This way all melee class with shield line be able to have a better offensive build with a lesser stun.

Stop crying for a nerf about a spell/skill you don't like and start to think about all the impact of a big nerf like this on the Daoc class ecosystem.
this kind of nerf are not like nerfing a spell for a unique class. (charm for minst)
it change 10 class gameplay build. 30% of the class...

I think you completely misunderstood the idea. First of all: It is only 5 secs for BM/Merc, and it is not done "because I don't like being slammed" but it is done because it gives more relative strength to heavy-tanks without buffing them directly.

Second: A merc/BM currently doesn't really give up much in terms of offense or defense. GM's have stated various times you only need 52 in your weapon-spec in order to do maximum damage. Style-bonus is applied to Celtic Dual / Dual Wield styles with max benefit because you still spec those to 50. In defense they're only giving up in a 1vs1 situation, because if they wanna put up defense when trained they can instantly switch back to shield. 42 Shield gives more personal defense then 42 Parry (when Medium shield is equipped).
Fri 12 Oct 2018 6:09 AM by Druth
And you can just spec 35 shield and get 8 sec stun, that is easy to pull off.
Mon 15 Oct 2018 12:32 AM by Ombrix
Definitly. I agree with. Without this maccro for switching , there will be 90% of the mercs/bms with 0 pts in shield spec . This 9 sec slam is a reward for the switching , you need to be good to do it properly. Right now it’s like playing a normal tank.
For arms/hero/warr a good change will be lil bit less damage, but lil bit more tankyness , it’s not normal that a arms die exactly like a merc.
Wed 17 Oct 2018 4:45 PM by Vack
Tanks are Tanky, but always reliant on good healers, that's the way it is, always has been. Armsmen might die the same way as a merc to magic, but certainly not to Melee. Just like I get lit up just the same as a BM to Magic, but not in melee. I think your perspective on this is skewed.

Furthermore, I'm unsure what you guys want, you want a classic game, but you want all the TOA changes. Leave slam be, leave Armsman, Hero, Warriors as is, they are where they need to be. I think the DW classes are where they need to be as well. Honestly the game as a whole balance wise is pretty spot on. I fear that many of the wants are unfounded and I hope the game doesn't cater to the vocal minority.
Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:14 PM by Falken
Right now there really is no choice for specs on light tanks with shields, it's just a given that you spec 42 shield for slam, and you now have the best anytime stun in game along with some of the highest dps. Make them start dragging and dropping shield, this would add some build diversity , but as it is with easy mode switching it's just brain dead. As has been stated previously there should be a reason to bring primary tanks along, I can guarantee that you will still see light tanks getting 42 shield even if it were 5 seconds because there really is nothing else that they would put their points into. Parry is basically useless outside of solo/small man, in which case a 9 second stun out shines some mitigation, and in 8vX parry is absolutely useless when played right. Going above 52 composite weapon is not efficient for point useage due to both BM/Merc using their CD and DW for their damage, so points wouldn't go there... this leaves shield.
Wed 17 Oct 2018 8:36 PM by Ninefingers
I agree with this change. Wanting to play a heavy tank, but worried about utility on grp with light tank switch
Wed 17 Oct 2018 10:02 PM by Cadebrennus
Falken wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:14 PM
Right now there really is no choice for specs on light tanks with shields, it's just a given that you spec 42 shield for slam, and you now have the best anytime stun in game along with some of the highest dps. Make them start dragging and dropping shield, this would add some build diversity , but as it is with easy mode switching it's just brain dead. As has been stated previously there should be a reason to bring primary tanks along, I can guarantee that you will still see light tanks getting 42 shield even if it were 5 seconds because there really is nothing else that they would put their points into. Parry is basically useless outside of solo/small man, in which case a 9 second stun out shines some mitigation, and in 8vX parry is absolutely useless when played right. Going above 52 composite weapon is not efficient for point useage due to both BM/Merc using their CD and DW for their damage, so points wouldn't go there... this leaves shield.

It's not safe to assume that all points will automatically be 50 CD/DW rest composite. CD doesn't have very much that's worth using DPS wise unless it's the side chain off of the stun, which leaves (for example) the rear Blades chain for better consistent DPS. DW doesn't have a good rear snare so that leaves 44 Thrust to take up that slack. If a Light Tank player knows anything they know that they will have to make a sacrifice somewhere to have 42 Shield for Slam and to still have utility from their style lines. For example, in order to have utility as a Thrust Merc I had to spec 44 DW, 44 Thrust (for the anytime snare chain), 42 Shield, rest parry.
Wed 17 Oct 2018 10:52 PM by Ombrix
Doesn’t matter about the spec.

Just be honest. 9sec slam by a light tank, you die. So anyway this have to be change. That’s it.

« I win button » need to be nerf. Doesn’t matter wich class got it.

And tank need to be more tanky i swear. My team mate play BM, you know what he do to armsman / warrior ? Really, why play tank when you die like that. Useless.
Thu 18 Oct 2018 9:05 PM by Kralin
No, cannot agree to this suggestion. Slam is a level 42 style ability with a 9 second stun available to all classes that can spec in shield. It should not be customized on a class by class basis. There must be another way to get people to play Heavy Tanks over Light Tanks.
Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:19 AM by Ganaka
IMHO.. The 9 second shield stun should require a spec of 50, not the current 42. The 42 spec ability and the 50 spec ability should swap places.
Fri 19 Oct 2018 1:07 AM by Cadebrennus
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 12:19 AM
IMHO.. The 9 second shield stun should require a spec of 50, not the current 42. The 42 spec ability and the 50 spec ability should swap places.

This always did seem like a design flaw on Mythic's part.
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:03 AM by Druth
The problem is the weaponswapping.
Even swapping between s/s and 2-hand is a problem, fought a warrior who did this between each style.

If they added a delay after a weaponswap, you'd see much less of this.
And you might also see people actually use large shields, and not just small shields and swap to large if needed.
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:04 AM by magicbuns
What about the effect of Det and Stoicism? I don't even play these classes and can clearly see this is an awful idea....
Fri 19 Oct 2018 2:00 PM by isocleas2
Defensive tanks still have a place, guard/engage here is very effective and blademasters/mercs can't spec mastery of block. Our hib tank grp still runs a hero in place of a bm when one of ours is on.

The big advantage mercs/bms have over svgs/zerks is the stun. Mid light tanks get better dmg, hib/alb light tanks get more utility. If you start messing with the slam stun duration to appease some solo players it will affect the balance between the 3 realms. Also if you're in a group and a bm/merc solos you in slam I'd consider finding a group that has healers.
Fri 19 Oct 2018 5:11 PM by daocgod
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 10:30 PM
on the same way you can :
Divide all mezz by 1/2 (cause it's really long when you take a full timer mezz)
Divide caster stun by 1/2 (cause hib caster can kill every one on one stun)
Make stealth a timer skill to force them to appear sometimes ! cause we cant find stealther
we can continue like this for more skills.

i don't like to be focus slammed and killed by 2 or more player but shield spec is fine it's the game... offensive class like BM mercenary have to sacrifice some point on weapons specs or survivability (parry) to up 42 shield to only have the slam benefit.. light tank class with shield spec are designed to can reach 42 with little sacrifice defensive/offensive. they can't reach 50 without unbalancing the class and be really uneficient...

Exemple albion :
Mercenary : 50 DW 50shield / 28slash ! 6 parry ! no defense really low weapons
Paladin : 49 chants 50 shield / 29 slash (lucky one!) 9 parry ! paladin hit like a mouse even with 42 shield rest weapons...
Reaver : 50 flex 50 shield / 28 soulrending ! 6 parry ! really bad soulrending and no parry
Armsman : 50 pole 50 shield / 28 slash ! 6 parry ! low weapons no parry.

We can continue like this for all melee class and it's the same problem (warrior less impact cause they spec on only 1 spec for 1 and 2 hand).

So you really want to nerf a central spec for much class and force them to go 50 shield ??
Second way :
slam put to 5s ? yes slam 9s is powerfull skill but he need 42 point on a sub spec not giving other benefit for all melee shield spec class!

put anytime stun 9s at 50 ok but if you do this you have to put other anytime 5s skill at very low shield spec like 23 or 29 not at 42!
This way all melee class with shield line be able to have a better offensive build with a lesser stun.

Stop crying for a nerf about a spell/skill you don't like and start to think about all the impact of a big nerf like this on the Daoc class ecosystem.
this kind of nerf are not like nerfing a spell for a unique class. (charm for minst)
it change 10 class gameplay build. 30% of the class...
Hib caster stun is 5 seconds when reduced by resists, gl killing someone with that. and you give up literally nothing going for slam because you still get 39 weapon which is enough for composite 50 so I am not sure what your point is here
Fri 19 Oct 2018 5:46 PM by Ganaka
magicbuns wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Oct 2018 7:04 AM
What about the effect of Det and Stoicism? I don't even play these classes and can clearly see this is an awful idea....

I was under the impression that det only affected spell mez, root and stun. Effects from weapon abilities are not reduced by stoicism. Is this not true?
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:03 AM by Isavyr
No, you're right. Magicbuns isn't familiar with the mechanics, so he isn't judging it properly.

5s seems too severe. 7s seems more fair.

I also like the idea of Slam being given to 50 Shield, though this favors Warriors over Heroes and Armsman, who often times are reliant upon split specs. Their damage will be further reduced for this utility, whereas Warriors will be largely unaffected.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:25 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:03 AM
No, you're right. Magicbuns isn't familiar with the mechanics, so he isn't judging it properly.

5s seems too severe. 7s seems more fair.

I also like the idea of Slam being given to 50 Shield, though this favors Warriors over Heroes and Armsman, who often times are reliant upon split specs. Their damage will be further reduced for this utility, whereas Warriors will be largely unaffected.

Consider that Warriors only spec in one style line (aside from Shield) yet Armsmen and Heroes have access to two style lines. Sure this is a detriment as you mentioned, but they also can use the styles from both lines which can increase their utility. Something to think about.
Sat 20 Oct 2018 3:08 AM by Ganaka
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:03 AM
No, you're right. Magicbuns isn't familiar with the mechanics, so he isn't judging it properly.

5s seems too severe. 7s seems more fair.

I also like the idea of Slam being given to 50 Shield, though this favors Warriors over Heroes and Armsman, who often times are reliant upon split specs. Their damage will be further reduced for this utility, whereas Warriors will be largely unaffected.

Moving Slam to 50 Shield (probably) reduces the number of players using the skill without actually nerfing the Shield line. A 'true' Tank will have 50 Shield regardless. It's just the off-tanks and dual-wielders that will probably think twice before specing that far into Shield. They would actually have to sacrifice offense to get a defensive ability, which is a dilemma they don't have to ponder right now.
Sun 21 Oct 2018 10:58 AM by Zeglamancer
Dumb idea. Buy Purge or position better so you don't get slammed.

OR rename it something else. I never understood that. Same ability, same name, same spec level, same skill tree, yet different values yielded based on what class used the move? Stupid as hell. Slam is Slam. It's a 9s stun shield move. Doesn't matter who does it.


Make a new shield move with a diff name if u want to weaken the ability for certain classes.


I mean, God forbid people actually play to the class's strengths right?
Mon 22 Oct 2018 8:22 AM by magicbuns
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Oct 2018 2:03 AM
No, you're right. Magicbuns isn't familiar with the mechanics, so he isn't judging it properly.

5s seems too severe. 7s seems more fair.

I also like the idea of Slam being given to 50 Shield, though this favors Warriors over Heroes and Armsman, who often times are reliant upon split specs. Their damage will be further reduced for this utility, whereas Warriors will be largely unaffected.

And where do you have this information?
Mon 22 Oct 2018 10:44 AM by Druth
Warriors dont have a strong stun in any of their weapon lines.
I mean heroes have a 9 sec backside stun.

I just get confused because people on one hand really want to keep DaoC complex and varied.
But something as silly as a anytime 9 sec stun that everyone who can will spec for, that is something we don't want changed.
Tue 23 Oct 2018 1:56 AM by buddhazeng
Falken wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 5:14 PM
Right now there really is no choice for specs on light tanks with shields, it's just a given that you spec 42 shield for slam, and you now have the best anytime stun in game along with some of the highest dps. Make them start dragging and dropping shield, this would add some build diversity , but as it is with easy mode switching it's just brain dead. As has been stated previously there should be a reason to bring primary tanks along, I can guarantee that you will still see light tanks getting 42 shield even if it were 5 seconds because there really is nothing else that they would put their points into. Parry is basically useless outside of solo/small man, in which case a 9 second stun out shines some mitigation, and in 8vX parry is absolutely useless when played right. Going above 52 composite weapon is not efficient for point useage due to both BM/Merc using their CD and DW for their damage, so points wouldn't go there... this leaves shield.

The /switch command was being done on other servers with the use of 3 party macros, so you will still have the people finding ways to do this with a qbind and now everyone can do it within the means of the game, also 1 button 1 action should be a thing but people still find ways around it
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:14 AM by cortexqc
magical have better resist than physical cause caster can debuff up to 50%. this is gameplay mechanic of the game...
You have resist ? your stun is only 5s ? it's a cast "1500 range 2s cast" baseline (you don't have to spend 1 point) ... where melee spend 42 spec point, have to reach the target "attempt" to hit (if he's not killed before contact) and can be blocked, evade, parry, miss or hit the bubble!!
If melee stun don't have resist is for a reason...
if the shield line are one of the spec never nerfed on live there is a reason...
if you really want to put slam at 50 to avoid BM/merc to reach slam withou big impact on their build devs have to give 2.5 spec point to some hybrid classes (thane,champ,reaver) if they don't want to broke the classes.
And make slam 5s stun is really a joke for 42 spec point in a spec useless when you see the cost and all fail possibility ...
Tue 23 Oct 2018 2:45 PM by Druth
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:14 AM
And make slam 5s stun is really a joke for 42 spec point in a spec useless when you see the cost and all fail possibility ...

That is the whole problem, people put points in a skill line up to 42, only for one style.
Shield spec should be about more than slam, it should also be about blocking for example, but slam is so strong that people pick shield 42 just for that one style.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 12:47 AM by kmark101
I think moving slam to 50 is a great idea. Those dual wielder classes who spec shield 42 were never meant to be slam bots... besides it's a super mega powerful skill for only 42pts. Or maybe reduce Slam's duration drastically and replace the current level 50 shield skill with a new skill called Bash that would give the 9s stun.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 7:03 AM by Koljar
FYI: It's 902 points, not just 42. Or in other words: Roughly 30% of an off tanks skillpoints.
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:21 PM by Vack
This is all hypocritical. Do you want to play DAOC, classic with QOL changes, or do you want to make an entirely new game. The Devs are on that fine grey line now. Changes like this tip the balance. We should not be changing the fundamentals of the game. Classes are pretty well balanced now. Maybe a tweak here and there for good measure, but you folks are asking for fundamental chances. You want Classic with all the live changes, baffles me, why aren't you playing live then?
Thu 25 Oct 2018 4:12 PM by isocleas2
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 2:45 PM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:14 AM
And make slam 5s stun is really a joke for 42 spec point in a spec useless when you see the cost and all fail possibility ...

That is the whole problem, people put points in a skill line up to 42, only for one style.
Shield spec should be about more than slam, it should also be about blocking for example, but slam is so strong that people pick shield 42 just for that one style.

Maybe you only put 42 in for one style, but the tanks we play with know how to engage/guard as well.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 3:34 PM by Sepplord
what also is overlooked here is all the hybrids and scout being fucked over by such a change...

it is basically like a kid throwing a fit because they dislike something, without even thinking about the consequences for the big picture


IF (and that's a big IF) you want to change slam for the Offtanks...maybe reduce their speccpoints rather than changing a complete specline. Apparently they can spec 42shield without sacrificing anything meaningful. So make them sacrifice something for it, and people will actually have to make choices.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 7:36 PM by gallaraider
Sepplord wrote: what also is overlooked here is all the hybrids and scout being fucked over by such a change...

it is basically like a kid throwing a fit because they dislike something, without even thinking about the consequences for the big picture


IF (and that's a big IF) you want to change slam for the Offtanks...maybe reduce their speccpoints rather than changing a complete specline. Apparently they can spec 42shield without sacrificing anything meaningful. So make them sacrifice something for it, and people will actually have to make choices.
Oh no, not Scouts!
Sun 4 Nov 2018 8:06 PM by Sepplord
gallaraider wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 7:36 PM
Oh no, not Scouts!

at least you are not hiding your bias

That makes it easier to disregard your opinion on balancing discussions
Sun 4 Nov 2018 8:38 PM by Cadebrennus
Make Slam 5 seconds for EVERYONE. It's not a positional, it's not a reactionary, it's not the 2nd or 3rd in a chain, so there's no reason for it to be as powerful as it is.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 8:38 PM by Cadebrennus
Make Slam 5 seconds for EVERYONE. It's not a positional, it's not a reactionary, it's not the 2nd or 3rd in a chain, so there's no reason for it to be as powerful as it is.
Sun 4 Nov 2018 11:46 PM by opossum12
Vack wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:21 PM
This is all hypocritical. Do you want to play DAOC, classic with QOL changes, or do you want to make an entirely new game. The Devs are on that fine grey line now. Changes like this tip the balance. We should not be changing the fundamentals of the game. Classes are pretty well balanced now. Maybe a tweak here and there for good measure, but you folks are asking for fundamental chances. You want Classic with all the live changes, baffles me, why aren't you playing live then?

That’s not true, on live BM/merc can’t even spec in shield. In order to give heavy tanks some sort of appeal they gave them a bunch of random abilities like group purge, rampage, etc

Lowering the slam duration for merc/BM only makes sense, it still is an anytime style and the duration is unaffected by det. So 5 sec slam is still super strong and feels like a reasonable compromise considering it was entirely removed from light tanks later on.

And finally I don’t think anyone here plays « classic » daoc because of the retarded OP abilites, they mostly play here because they don’t like the daoc post ToA or the current crap thatbroadsword brought in the game
Mon 5 Nov 2018 1:30 AM by Cadebrennus
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 11:46 PM
Vack wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:21 PM
This is all hypocritical. Do you want to play DAOC, classic with QOL changes, or do you want to make an entirely new game. The Devs are on that fine grey line now. Changes like this tip the balance. We should not be changing the fundamentals of the game. Classes are pretty well balanced now. Maybe a tweak here and there for good measure, but you folks are asking for fundamental chances. You want Classic with all the live changes, baffles me, why aren't you playing live then?

That’s not true, on live BM/merc can’t even spec in shield. In order to give heavy tanks some sort of appeal they gave them a bunch of random abilities like group purge, rampage, etc

Lowering the slam duration for merc/BM only makes sense, it still is an anytime style and the duration is unaffected by det. So 5 sec slam is still super strong and feels like a reasonable compromise considering it was entirely removed from light tanks later on.

And finally I don’t think anyone here plays « classic » daoc because of the retarded OP abilites, they mostly play here because they don’t like the daoc post ToA or the current crap thatbroadsword brought in the game

To your first point, I have no idea where you are getting your information but my Merc definitely has 42 shield. Most BM/Merc players choose not to spec shield because it's no longer "the meta" on live.

As to your last point, you are correct. While post-TOA is bearable, Broadsword seems to be in some sort of contest as to how to tank a long-running game in the shortest amount of time. Broadsword is the reason for the dismal population on live, the insane amount of players that flocked to Uthgard on launch (4000+), and the reason that people are giving Phoenix a chance despite the debacle that Uthgard was.
Mon 5 Nov 2018 11:33 AM by opossum12
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Nov 2018 1:30 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Nov 2018 11:46 PM
Vack wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Oct 2018 3:21 PM
This is all hypocritical. Do you want to play DAOC, classic with QOL changes, or do you want to make an entirely new game. The Devs are on that fine grey line now. Changes like this tip the balance. We should not be changing the fundamentals of the game. Classes are pretty well balanced now. Maybe a tweak here and there for good measure, but you folks are asking for fundamental chances. You want Classic with all the live changes, baffles me, why aren't you playing live then?

That’s not true, on live BM/merc can’t even spec in shield. In order to give heavy tanks some sort of appeal they gave them a bunch of random abilities like group purge, rampage, etc

Lowering the slam duration for merc/BM only makes sense, it still is an anytime style and the duration is unaffected by det. So 5 sec slam is still super strong and feels like a reasonable compromise considering it was entirely removed from light tanks later on.

And finally I don’t think anyone here plays « classic » daoc because of the retarded OP abilites, they mostly play here because they don’t like the daoc post ToA or the current crap thatbroadsword brought in the game

To your first point, I have no idea where you are getting your information but my Merc definitely has 42 shield. Most BM/Merc players choose not to spec shield because it's no longer "the meta" on live.

As to your last point, you are correct. While post-TOA is bearable, Broadsword seems to be in some sort of contest as to how to tank a long-running game in the shortest amount of time. Broadsword is the reason for the dismal population on live, the insane amount of players that flocked to Uthgard on launch (4000+), and the reason that people are giving Phoenix a chance despite the debacle that Uthgard was.

Wow I do stand corrected, I had a friend with a shield merc, don’t know why I thought they didn’t have access to it. However they don’t have access to that sweet /switch macro so manually switching out your shield to slam then manually switch back to DW makes it more challenging. And BM/merc have the side stun chain so slam isn’t as much required.
Tue 6 Nov 2018 4:08 AM by Abattoir
7 second duration would be fine. No need for 5. Gives heavys something
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:34 PM by Vack
Thus why nerfing the slam on BM's and Mercs is uncalled for. I get hit with it all the time, it's part of the game. Does it suck, sure, you want to cure it, increase the immunity timers on every form of CC 2 fold. This will, imo, be a better representation of class balance and group dynamic.
Fri 9 Nov 2018 4:39 PM by Ombrix
Vack wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:34 PM
Thus why nerfing the slam on BM's and Mercs is uncalled for. I get hit with it all the time, it's part of the game. Does it suck, sure, you want to cure it, increase the immunity timers on every form of CC 2 fold. This will, imo, be a better representation of class balance and group dynamic.

Doesn’t matter for imunity timer when you are already dead 🙄

Reaver slam 9 sec = Oh great i will got 1mins imunity stun timer. Oh crap i’m dead.

Nice balance 🤷‍♂️
Sat 10 Nov 2018 12:18 AM by Vack
Game wasn't balanced on solo combat. As a tank class you should probably have a healer no? Or you could purge it, or you could use IP, or or or.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 8:45 AM by Druth
Ombrix wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Nov 2018 4:39 PM
Doesn’t matter for imunity timer when you are already dead 🙄

Reaver slam 9 sec = Oh great i will got 1mins imunity stun timer. Oh crap i’m dead.

Nice balance 🤷‍♂️

Yeah, I love my reaver. But damn... that 9 sec anytime stun is major OP.

Slam did get a slight nerf with NF RA, in that most have purge up.
But I still don't think an anytime stun should be the best stun at spec 42.

I hope they return to skill balance after working on RA balance.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:35 PM by Ceen
What kind of balance?
Every time they patch in one direction people will complain, then they patch in another direction and people will complain.
Retarded server ^^
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:44 PM by Ganaka
I honestly believe if the anytime Slam were at 50 spec instead of 42 spec, then it wouldn't feel as nearly as overpowered. It would force people to sacrifice offense (even if just a little bit) for more defense.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:11 PM by Sepplord
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:44 PM
I honestly believe if the anytime Slam were at 50 spec instead of 42 spec, then it wouldn't feel as nearly as overpowered. It would force people to sacrifice offense (even if just a little bit) for more defense.

and fuck over speccs besides BM/merc even more

speccing 42 into a specline for nothing but slam is alraedy a huge sacrifice, when that sacrifice isn't enough for merc/BM then nerf merc/BM somehow, and not the entire shield spec for every shielduser
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:18 PM by Ganaka
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:11 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:44 PM
I honestly believe if the anytime Slam were at 50 spec instead of 42 spec, then it wouldn't feel as nearly as overpowered. It would force people to sacrifice offense (even if just a little bit) for more defense.

and fuck over speccs besides BM/merc even more

speccing 42 into a specline for nothing but slam is alraedy a huge sacrifice, when that sacrifice isn't enough for merc/BM then nerf merc/BM somehow, and not the entire shield spec for every shielduser

There are many people that believe a defensive Blademaster is better than a defensive Hero due to the extra offensive abilities. There is no downside to specializing in offense and defense right now.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:31 PM by Sepplord
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:18 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:11 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 1:44 PM
I honestly believe if the anytime Slam were at 50 spec instead of 42 spec, then it wouldn't feel as nearly as overpowered. It would force people to sacrifice offense (even if just a little bit) for more defense.

and fuck over speccs besides BM/merc even more

speccing 42 into a specline for nothing but slam is alraedy a huge sacrifice, when that sacrifice isn't enough for merc/BM then nerf merc/BM somehow, and not the entire shield spec for every shielduser

There are many people that believe a defensive Blademaster is better than a defensive Hero due to the extra offensive abilities. There is no downside to specializing in offense and defense right now.


uh...yes...you realise that nerfing slam fucks the Hero too right?

i explicitly mentioned speccs BESIDE BM/merc...and to nerf THOSE classes when they are too strong, instead of nerfing a whole speccline

what did you misunderstand about my comment? How can i avoid that misunderstanding in the future?
Mon 12 Nov 2018 3:00 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:31 PM
uh...yes...you realise that nerfing slam fucks the Hero too right?

i explicitly mentioned speccs BESIDE BM/merc...and to nerf THOSE classes when they are too strong, instead of nerfing a whole speccline

what did you misunderstand about my comment? How can i avoid that misunderstanding in the future?

I think 9 sec anytime stun on any class is bad (and also think 9 sec casted stun is bad, but at least det/aom helps vs that).

Hero can use annihiliation and have far stronger stun than BM.
Armsman would have it as followup style, but arms is already strong.
Warrior would have trouble, but at least healer has 11 sec casted stun.

Anyway, that would leave merc/BM with weak stuns but high damage.

Again, I do not understand why people defend a non potional/conditional 7+ sec stun. It encourages bad play.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 3:07 PM by Ganaka
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:31 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:18 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:11 PM
and fuck over speccs besides BM/merc even more

speccing 42 into a specline for nothing but slam is alraedy a huge sacrifice, when that sacrifice isn't enough for merc/BM then nerf merc/BM somehow, and not the entire shield spec for every shielduser

There are many people that believe a defensive Blademaster is better than a defensive Hero due to the extra offensive abilities. There is no downside to specializing in offense and defense right now.


uh...yes...you realise that nerfing slam fucks the Hero too right?

i explicitly mentioned speccs BESIDE BM/merc...and to nerf THOSE classes when they are too strong, instead of nerfing a whole speccline

what did you misunderstand about my comment? How can i avoid that misunderstanding in the future?

Requiring 50 Shield skill to get Slam does not nerf Slam. It would still be an any-time skill. It might nerf a build, but it doesn't nerf the skill. It would, however, require actually choosing to be more offensive or defensive. IMO, being good at both isn't healthy for the game.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 4:52 PM by Sepplord
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 3:07 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:31 PM
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:18 PM
There are many people that believe a defensive Blademaster is better than a defensive Hero due to the extra offensive abilities. There is no downside to specializing in offense and defense right now.


uh...yes...you realise that nerfing slam fucks the Hero too right?

i explicitly mentioned speccs BESIDE BM/merc...and to nerf THOSE classes when they are too strong, instead of nerfing a whole speccline

what did you misunderstand about my comment? How can i avoid that misunderstanding in the future?

Requiring 50 Shield skill to get Slam does not nerf Slam. It would still be an any-time skill. It might nerf a build, but it doesn't nerf the skill. It would, however, require actually choosing to be more offensive or defensive. IMO, being good at both isn't healthy for the game.

Ignoring my point: check

Ignoring my question: check

Arguing semantics: check


thanks for nothing
Tue 13 Nov 2018 12:58 AM by Falken
Yes please, right now it is just the norm for these classes to pick up 42 shield, there really is no other option and they do not really give up anything by picking up 42 shield due to using their DW/CD styles and composite weapon to maximize damage.

Leave Hero/War/Arms @ 9 sec slam. Just nerf light tank slam to 5s.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:36 AM by Koljar
Don't forget that a 2x class going for shield invests 30% of the available skill points (902 of 2979) for just one skill.

Other classes (healer, cleric, "classic" hib casters) get a stun for free no matter which line they put their points in. Sure - influenced by resists - but still for free...
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:39 AM by Cadebrennus
Koljar wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:36 AM
Don't forget that a 2x class going for shield invests 30% of the available skill points (902 of 2979) for just one skill.

Other classes (healer, cleric, "classic" hib casters) get a stun for free no matter which line they put their points in. Sure - influenced by resists - but still for free...

Even if ALL styles were removed from the Shield line it would still be useful for defense the same way that Parry is.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 7:55 AM by Koljar
This thread is about the reasonability of slam as an anytime 9 sec stun for BMs and mercs. It's not about the defensive bonus specing shield gives.

No one would spec shield for just the chance to block as long as there are other lines with whichever (preferably damaging) abilities. People spec shield to 42 for slam, not the chance to block (it is a bonus but yeah...). BMs and mercs do this for the sole reason to stun their target, then switch back to 2 weapons to dps them down.

If you realy count the defensive bonus from speccing shield - do not forget the baseline skills other classes get (not just the afore mentioned baseline stunners).
Fri 16 Nov 2018 1:48 AM by Severa
5 sec stun would be a great equalizer.. love the idea
Fri 16 Nov 2018 11:07 PM by Ninefingers
5 sec stun from style 42 shield ONLY for light tanks (merc/BM) or swap 42 shield style for 50 shield style. Both of these are good options i believe.

They both lower the utility of the light tank class. The first option leaves heavy tanks unaltered, and improves their chances of getting the peel role in a group due to longer stun duration. The second does favour warriors because all will have 50 shield, Hero can also get 50 shield without too many problems, still have 50 LW and then some 1H, arms would have more trouble, but you can then argue that the anytime snare on pole makes up for this.

I agree that something needs to be done to make pure tanks more desirable, because under this patch and with /switch there really is no reason for them in a group for peels, may as well have another merc/bm, they do the job just as well if not better with Prevent flight because of more chances for proc.
Sat 17 Nov 2018 4:54 PM by Azrael
No need for a change.
Sat 17 Nov 2018 8:54 PM by Schamalow
I got a problem with an Anytime stun 9s lvl 42.

Why?
Because what is the goal of the others skills on the shield line???
You have 6/7/8s positionnal style that can be usefull in fight. Of course, you will need a little more "skill" to stun someone that if you used Slam.
It isn't about nerf one class or whatever. But i would love to used all the shield lane skills & not only one.

I think Slam should be 6 or less secondes stun. Or give Slam a positionnal opening. (whatever the class)

It's not the only line that suffer from designed issues but that's another story...
Fri 23 Nov 2018 3:22 PM by Tritri
You know that if you nerf slam, people will start using only the second best stun (which would be whatever the longest positionnal style is)

Since shield style only ever stun, you'll only ever use the most practical one, so nerfing the 9 sec anytime will not fix the issue you are pointing out.
Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:21 PM by Cadebrennus
Tritri wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 3:22 PM
You know that if you nerf slam, people will start using only the second best stun (which would be whatever the longest positionnal style is)

Since shield style only ever stun, you'll only ever use the most practical one, so nerfing the 9 sec anytime will not fix the issue you are pointing out.

Nerfing Slam across the board to 4 or 5 seconds would have one of two outcomes in a fight:

1) you get stunned for 4 or 5 seconds
2) they try to get a positional stun on you which you can defend against
Sat 24 Nov 2018 10:01 AM by Schamalow
Tritri wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 3:22 PM
You know that if you nerf slam, people will start using only the second best stun (which would be whatever the longest positionnal style is)

Since shield style only ever stun, you'll only ever use the most practical one, so nerfing the 9 sec anytime will not fix the issue you are pointing out.

What are you talking about?

lvl 35 side 8s stun
lvl 29 block 7s stun
lvl 23 behind 6s stun

You will used lvl 35 style most of the time. But in 1vX, you will used 29 style and if you ran behind a target who try to flied, you will used 23.
So you will used 3 styles VS 1 for now = a little more skill or brain (Pick what you like =) ).

Plus, if you get only 35 on shield VS 42, you will gain 273 specialisation's points who you can spend an others lines = more character building possibilities.
Sat 24 Nov 2018 7:00 PM by Druth
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 23 Nov 2018 7:21 PM
Nerfing Slam across the board to 4 or 5 seconds would have one of two outcomes in a fight:

1) you get stunned for 4 or 5 seconds
2) they try to get a positional stun on you which you can defend against

Yeah, I also wish that avoiding being stunned was more than praying to the random gods.
Sat 24 Nov 2018 9:07 PM by cortexqc
Ninefingers wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Nov 2018 11:07 PM
I agree that something needs to be done to make pure tanks more desirable, because under this patch and with /switch there really is no reason for them in a group for peels, may as well have another merc/bm, they do the job just as well if not better with Prevent flight because of more chances for proc.

no need change to make tank more desirable.
Dashing Defense = up to 60 second block and parry for all the group / CD 10mn with block parry bonus up to +15%.
a tank with near 60% + 50% parry...

but why not making slam a front style ?
this way you don't nerf/affect the style in pve for light tank with only 42 shield (champion/reaver/thane can't go 50 shield cause they have spell cpec line to up) but add a small difficulty in rvr.
they can't rush someone from side or behind and put easy slam 9s, plus if someone fear run a light tank he can't be slammed by light tank from behind, they have to use lvl 23 behind stun 6s.

Or maybe switch 42 and 50 style. this way light tank in pve can have a 10s stun on block vs monster but loose slam in rvr and need to use positional.

another question, since new RA arrived and since purge can be 5mn timer, stun is really an issue?
i read on other post since new RA are here inf or scout stun are easy countered and now are not a problem cause of 5mn purge.
Mon 26 Nov 2018 5:23 PM by Kralin
This discussion has gone in circles since its onset and as everyone can see there isn't one solution. In fact, the problem isn't even clear. Is the problem /switch making light tanks too easy, that people don't like to be stunned, the new 5 min purge, or that we want incentives for heavy tanks to be more viable?

Due to the difficulty in identifying the problem, let's just cut our losses and not make drastic changes to one of the most iconic abilities in DAOC. Stun should remain as it is: 9 second, anytime shield ability, requires spec of 42.
Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:31 AM by cortexqc
the problem is much person complaining about stun in general or slam don't have in mind stun is exactly the same as root/snare/mezz for caster.
if a melee with slam reach someone and slam and dps is exactly the same as a caster nuking a melee, root/mezz the melee before contact and nuke it again until die...
if BM or Merc invest 42point in shield he loose defense with dual wield (21% parry) make them more vulnerable by other melee while in full dps..
Yes 42 shield is really good and worth the invest, same as other class with 3 spell/skill lines and 3 specs class. like runemaster 47dark/26supp to obtain auto pbt, there is much exemple.
All class loose something to have other advantage, sometime not much notable sometime more.
so even if you don't see it cause lack of defense and is not visible and don't annoys no one, light tank BM/merc loose defense to gain an anytime 9s instead of using a 8s side positional...

really think player forget it's daoc classic server with QoL improvement and little change for some underloved spec.
Don't forget all fundamental change impact other things!
9s slam 42 shield spec is part of 17 years of this game. it's not like limit minstrel charm per second or adjust a little spell or melee damage or make stealth more of less easy to find.
Less melee class able to slam can morph daoc in "dark age of casters".

Damn what i'm saying !! my main for live is a caster without stun spells !! nerf slam !!!!
Tue 27 Nov 2018 7:08 AM by Druth
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:31 AM
the problem is much person complaining about stun in general or slam don't have in mind stun is exactly the same as root/snare/mezz for caster.
if a melee with slam reach someone and slam and dps is exactly the same as a caster nuking a melee, root/mezz the melee before contact and nuke it again until die...
if BM or Merc invest 42point in shield he loose defense with dual wield (21% parry) make them more vulnerable by other melee while in full dps..
Yes 42 shield is really good and worth the invest, same as other class with 3 spell/skill lines and 3 specs class. like runemaster 47dark/26supp to obtain auto pbt, there is much exemple.
All class loose something to have other advantage, sometime not much notable sometime more.
so even if you don't see it cause lack of defense and is not visible and don't annoys no one, light tank BM/merc loose defense to gain an anytime 9s instead of using a 8s side positional...

really think player forget it's daoc classic server with QoL improvement and little change for some underloved spec.
Don't forget all fundamental change impact other things!
9s slam 42 shield spec is part of 17 years of this game. it's not like limit minstrel charm per second or adjust a little spell or melee damage or make stealth more of less easy to find.
Less melee class able to slam can morph daoc in "dark age of casters".

Damn what i'm saying !! my main for live is a caster without stun spells !! nerf slam !!!!

Or maybe the people who complain just think a 9 sec melee stun that takes no skill but button mashing is not a good design?

And before you say "but but castabla stun???" I say: Magic resist, stoicism, and det. And 1 full minute immunity after, no matter how long you were stunned (vs. 54 secs of slam).

9 sec stun got nerfed around 2011, so 10 years before they finally understood that a 9 sec anytime melee stun is poor balance and bad design.
Balance because it makes shield users so far superior to those who can not spec it, and have to actually land positional stuns (with worse result).
Design because the best result should also require the most skill/technique/timing (lets ignore 50 shield spec, because it requires people attacking you or someone you guard). Like you for example don't have 1 class that has highest spec nukes that also debuffs res, no if you want highest spell damage you need to both debuff and use highest nukes.


And sorry, but no clue why you think being dual wielder with 42 shield as option is somehow a defence sacrifice.
Nothing stops you from going sword/shield the whole fight. Are armsmen sacrificing to when going polearm???
Baffled... every class that can swap to shield has a ton more defence than any other class, and add to this that 9 secs where your opponent can't hit you is reactive defence.

It's like saying casters looses defence when casting, because they have to stand still and be vulnerable to melee reaching them.
Tue 27 Nov 2018 7:23 AM by Schamalow
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:31 AM
the problem is much person complaining about stun in general or slam don't have in mind stun is exactly the same as root/snare/mezz for caster.
if a melee with slam reach someone and slam and dps is exactly the same as a caster nuking a melee, root/mezz the melee before contact and nuke it again until die...
Not true. A caster can be interrupt by a instant spell.
If you are root/snare, you can use spell.
If you are meez, you can be demezz.
And the most important point, if you are hittted when you are root/snare/mezz, you can do something.

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:31 AM
if BM or Merc invest 42point in shield he loose defense with dual wield (21% parry) make them more vulnerable by other melee while in full dps..
Yes 42 shield is really good and worth the invest, same as other class with 3 spell/skill lines and 3 specs class. like runemaster 47dark/26supp to obtain auto pbt, there is much exemple.
All class loose something to have other advantage, sometime not much notable sometime more.
so even if you don't see it cause lack of defense and is not visible and don't annoys no one, light tank BM/merc loose defense to gain an anytime 9s instead of using a 8s side positional...

I agree and disagree.
I agree that if a BM/Merc go 42 shield, they lose defense (parry) but let me ask you something.

Example of character builder Merc with Realm Rank 5:

Classic 42 Shield
Parry : 22
Composite weapon : 37
Shield : 42
DW : 50

No Shield:
Parry : 47
Composite weapon : 37
Shield : 0
DW : 50

2 Composite Weapon:
Parry : 29
2 Composite weapon : 37
Shield : 0
DW : 50

35 Shield:
Parry : 32
Composite weapon : 37
Shield : 35
DW : 50

So what do you take with you?
1 - I have Slam!
2 - I'm not shield spec but I have about +12.5% Parry bonus!
3 - I'm not shield spec but I have 2 weapons spec!
4 - I don't have Slam but I have about +5% Parry bonus and positional stun!

Personnaly, I prefer use the 4.
But let's be honest. I think 99% of people will take the 1 & I can't say they are wrong. It's the real issue of the Slam. It's too strong and others specialisations aren't worth it.
And I already say that but Slam is an anytime opening who make all other previous style of shield useless.

cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Nov 2018 2:31 AM
really think player forget it's daoc classic server with QoL improvement and little change for some underloved spec.
Don't forget all fundamental change impact other things!
9s slam 42 shield spec is part of 17 years of this game. it's not like limit minstrel charm per second or adjust a little spell or melee damage or make stealth more of less easy to find.
Less melee class able to slam can morph daoc in "dark age of casters".

Damn what i'm saying !! my main for live is a caster without stun spells !! nerf slam !!!!

Classic daoc? So what do you think about NF RA? bonus xp grp? Pal with 2.5 spec? PvE/PvP tasks? etc...
The devs here are open to some change and this is why we have this topic/forum, no?
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:06 PM by Fk_
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:14 AM
magical have better resist than physical cause caster can debuff up to 50%. this is gameplay mechanic of the game...
You have resist ? your stun is only 5s ? it's a cast "1500 range 2s cast" baseline (you don't have to spend 1 point) ... where melee spend 42 spec point, have to reach the target "attempt" to hit (if he's not killed before contact) and can be blocked, evade, parry, miss or hit the bubble!!
If melee stun don't have resist is for a reason...
if the shield line are one of the spec never nerfed on live there is a reason...
if you really want to put slam at 50 to avoid BM/merc to reach slam withou big impact on their build devs have to give 2.5 spec point to some hybrid classes (thane,champ,reaver) if they don't want to broke the classes.
And make slam 5s stun is really a joke for 42 spec point in a spec useless when you see the cost and all fail possibility ...

IIRC they gave 5s slam to hybrids and light tanks back in the day, right?
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:36 PM by Cadebrennus
Fk_ wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Nov 2018 10:06 PM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Oct 2018 3:14 AM
magical have better resist than physical cause caster can debuff up to 50%. this is gameplay mechanic of the game...
You have resist ? your stun is only 5s ? it's a cast "1500 range 2s cast" baseline (you don't have to spend 1 point) ... where melee spend 42 spec point, have to reach the target "attempt" to hit (if he's not killed before contact) and can be blocked, evade, parry, miss or hit the bubble!!
If melee stun don't have resist is for a reason...
if the shield line are one of the spec never nerfed on live there is a reason...
if you really want to put slam at 50 to avoid BM/merc to reach slam withou big impact on their build devs have to give 2.5 spec point to some hybrid classes (thane,champ,reaver) if they don't want to broke the classes.
And make slam 5s stun is really a joke for 42 spec point in a spec useless when you see the cost and all fail possibility ...

IIRC they gave 5s slam to hybrids and light tanks back in the day, right?

Everyone except Heavy Tanks. That includes Scouts with a 5 second Slam if I remember correctly.
Wed 28 Nov 2018 11:01 PM by cortexqc
yes that correct but this change arrived with much hybrid light tank other change on spec/skills/spells and gears with newest patch.
what about TOA gears bonus and ML and other CL. all melee styles are all revamped and all hybrid have good anytimes but some don't have good on 1.65. much hybrid have short chain styles on live but again "not in 1.65".
not all live change are good on a 1.65 server...
i don't say nothing can be done, just take care with this kind of change ! pretty sure change like this on actual 1.65 is the start of much other change to balance the game with melee hybrid class.
Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:07 PM by BaldEagle
Why hasn't this change been made?? lmao... shouldn't even of had to be a discussion.
Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:47 PM by Kralin
BaldEagle wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:07 PM
Why hasn't this change been made?? lmao... shouldn't even of had to be a discussion.

Because just as many people don't want it changed. It's a decision that has consequences either way and if you read through some of the less-hyperbolic replies in this thread, you'll see the reasons why we don't want it changed.

If you truly "lmao" and don't see a reason for civil discourse, then you sir, have a great sense of humor.
Fri 30 Nov 2018 11:46 PM by cortexqc
BaldEagle wrote: ↑
Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:07 PM
Why hasn't this change been made?? lmao... shouldn't even of had to be a discussion.

change not made cause we have all different opinions.
Some don't want the change
other are not against the change but think about all other impact on balance.
and other like you ! think just the change is needed and that all !!

exemple of impact :
Reaver :
Actually : gameplay based on stun(slam 9s) and try to chain 3 or 4 lev (in 1.65 other skill are weak anytime really weak) with short add damage to burst.
on live : stun (slam 5s) levi skill proc less powerfull but they balanced the gameplay revamping and giving more power to Constrictor (Anytime) with proc 45 spirit or
lifedrain cd 20s/160delve instead of 30s/128 in 1.65. and 15mn damage add self buff to up all melee attacks.

champion :
Valor line damage buffed new buff too

thane :
melee weapons line revamped with procs
stormcalling line buffed.

paladin :
chant line revamped multi chant+ heals weapons lines more powerfull (for the damage table the paladin actually buffed on phoenix)

i don't want to put the light on all boost change to hybrid with the lost of 9s stun but all shield hybrid are revamped to be less dependent of the stun and be more desirable in rvr so yes maybe my other post are little extreme but i'm not against a change but if slam nerf happen he need to come with really big other change for actual hybrids to be fair.
Sat 1 Dec 2018 4:20 PM by Druth
It's true there were to many opinions of how to "fix" slam, so fully understand why nothing fruitfull came of the suggestions.

I wanted to reduce slam to 5sec across the board, for everyone. And let people rely on 8 sec sidestun, go 50 shield for 10 sec of-block, or use their normal weapon styles for stuns. I don't think this hurts hybrids, light tanks or heavies in any harsh way.
It does make it harder to land stuns though, which I think was a good idea.
Sat 1 Dec 2018 6:29 PM by cortexqc
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 4:20 PM
It's true there were to many opinions of how to "fix" slam, so fully understand why nothing fruitfull came of the suggestions.

I wanted to reduce slam to 5sec across the board, for everyone. And let people rely on 8 sec sidestun, go 50 shield for 10 sec of-block, or use their normal weapon styles for stuns. I don't think this hurts hybrids, light tanks or heavies in any harsh way.
It does make it harder to land stuns though, which I think was a good idea.

hybrid don't have enough point to reach 50 shield to have a good stun in pve without big loss in "non weapon/shield line"
you don't "think" it hurt gameplay but the gameplay for this classes is based on stun and hit with powerfull positionnal if they want to make correct damage 1.65 .
on live all melee hybrid class are less dependent of stuns and positionnal with "good anytimes" and all chains "reactive/positionnal are short" to lower the chance to fail skill chain with miss/parry/block.

other exemple :
Reaver again cause is one of the most impacted gameplay:
no correct anytime +
1.65 good skills "cobra" 150 spirit delve (chain after parry viper + copperhead + taipan and finally cobra)
on live : taipan (side skill) chain to cobra (130 delve)

again :
1.65 : kingsnake(after parry) + tigersnake + and Anaconda (stun 9s)
on live : tigersnake (after parry) + Anaconda (stun 8s)

i'm repeating but there is thousands exemples on all hybrids.
1.65 gameplay skills and live is not balanced to "just nerf slam"

other point to live slam nerf : more class able to slam make the game a slamfest (warden , heretic, valk, maybe list is not full)
you can't take a 2011 nerf (after TOA + new class and revamp) and push it on 1.65 without really big impact. i don't say it's not possible to implant this change but he need big other adjustment.
Sat 1 Dec 2018 6:32 PM by Cadebrennus
(also posted in another thread about Slam)

If Slam is reduced to 5 seconds or less and the longer Shield stuns are positionals the only people who are going to whine about no longer having an easy 9 second stun are the keyboard face-mashers.


Sat 1 Dec 2018 8:57 PM by Druth
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 6:29 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 4:20 PM
It's true there were to many opinions of how to "fix" slam, so fully understand why nothing fruitfull came of the suggestions.

I wanted to reduce slam to 5sec across the board, for everyone. And let people rely on 8 sec sidestun, go 50 shield for 10 sec of-block, or use their normal weapon styles for stuns. I don't think this hurts hybrids, light tanks or heavies in any harsh way.
It does make it harder to land stuns though, which I think was a good idea.

hybrid don't have enough point to reach 50 shield to have a good stun in pve without big loss in "non weapon/shield line"
you don't "think" it hurt gameplay but the gameplay for this classes is based on stun and hit with powerfull positionnal if they want to make correct damage 1.65 .
on live all melee hybrid class are less dependent of stuns and positionnal with "good anytimes" and all chains "reactive/positionnal are short" to lower the chance to fail skill chain with miss/parry/block.

other exemple :
Reaver again cause is one of the most impacted gameplay:
no correct anytime +
1.65 good skills "cobra" 150 spirit delve (chain after parry viper + copperhead + taipan and finally cobra)
on live : taipan (side skill) chain to cobra (130 delve)

again :
1.65 : kingsnake(after parry) + tigersnake + and Anaconda (stun 9s)
on live : tigersnake (after parry) + Anaconda (stun 8s)

i'm repeating but there is thousands exemples on all hybrids.
1.65 gameplay skills and live is not balanced to "just nerf slam"

other point to live slam nerf : more class able to slam make the game a slamfest (warden , heretic, valk, maybe list is not full)
you can't take a 2011 nerf (after TOA + new class and revamp) and push it on 1.65 without really big impact. i don't say it's not possible to implant this change but he need big other adjustment.

In PvE reaver has no issues.
You block in shield has a 7 sec stun.
And flex has a 5 sec stun that has a whole chain of styles which ends in a high damage style.
Also a 3 in chain 9 sec stun off parry.

There is no reason to keep 9 sec slam stun, the game has a wiiiide range of alternatives that requires more than relying on 1 style.
Sat 1 Dec 2018 9:15 PM by Cadebrennus
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 8:57 PM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 6:29 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Dec 2018 4:20 PM
It's true there were to many opinions of how to "fix" slam, so fully understand why nothing fruitfull came of the suggestions.

I wanted to reduce slam to 5sec across the board, for everyone. And let people rely on 8 sec sidestun, go 50 shield for 10 sec of-block, or use their normal weapon styles for stuns. I don't think this hurts hybrids, light tanks or heavies in any harsh way.
It does make it harder to land stuns though, which I think was a good idea.

hybrid don't have enough point to reach 50 shield to have a good stun in pve without big loss in "non weapon/shield line"
you don't "think" it hurt gameplay but the gameplay for this classes is based on stun and hit with powerfull positionnal if they want to make correct damage 1.65 .
on live all melee hybrid class are less dependent of stuns and positionnal with "good anytimes" and all chains "reactive/positionnal are short" to lower the chance to fail skill chain with miss/parry/block.

other exemple :
Reaver again cause is one of the most impacted gameplay:
no correct anytime +
1.65 good skills "cobra" 150 spirit delve (chain after parry viper + copperhead + taipan and finally cobra)
on live : taipan (side skill) chain to cobra (130 delve)

again :
1.65 : kingsnake(after parry) + tigersnake + and Anaconda (stun 9s)
on live : tigersnake (after parry) + Anaconda (stun 8s)

i'm repeating but there is thousands exemples on all hybrids.
1.65 gameplay skills and live is not balanced to "just nerf slam"

other point to live slam nerf : more class able to slam make the game a slamfest (warden , heretic, valk, maybe list is not full)
you can't take a 2011 nerf (after TOA + new class and revamp) and push it on 1.65 without really big impact. i don't say it's not possible to implant this change but he need big other adjustment.

In PvE reaver has no issues.
You block in shield has a 7 sec stun.
And flex has a 5 sec stun that has a whole chain of styles which ends in a high damage style.
Also a 3 in chain 9 sec stun off parry.

There is no reason to keep 9 sec slam stun, the game has a wiiiide range of alternatives that requires more than relying on 1 style.

Sun 2 Dec 2018 1:25 AM by Dis
reduce it to 5, 9seconds is just over the top.
Mon 3 Dec 2018 10:43 PM by Vack
Ombrix wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Nov 2018 4:39 PM
Vack wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:34 PM
Thus why nerfing the slam on BM's and Mercs is uncalled for. I get hit with it all the time, it's part of the game. Does it suck, sure, you want to cure it, increase the immunity timers on every form of CC 2 fold. This will, imo, be a better representation of class balance and group dynamic.

Doesn’t matter for imunity timer when you are already dead 🙄

Reaver slam 9 sec = Oh great i will got 1mins imunity stun timer. Oh crap i’m dead.

Nice balance 🤷‍♂️

Is your healer asleep? You don’t balance this game based on soloing. That’s a mistake.
Mon 3 Dec 2018 10:47 PM by Vack
It’s easy to Fox this in group play. Make the immunity timers much longer across the board for mezz and stun. Let the fights pan out.
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:30 PM by cortexqc
Vack wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 10:43 PM
Ombrix wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Nov 2018 4:39 PM
Vack wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Nov 2018 11:34 PM
Thus why nerfing the slam on BM's and Mercs is uncalled for. I get hit with it all the time, it's part of the game. Does it suck, sure, you want to cure it, increase the immunity timers on every form of CC 2 fold. This will, imo, be a better representation of class balance and group dynamic.

Doesn’t matter for imunity timer when you are already dead 🙄

Reaver slam 9 sec = Oh great i will got 1mins imunity stun timer. Oh crap i’m dead.

Nice balance 🤷‍♂️

Is your healer asleep? You don’t balance this game based on soloing. That’s a mistake.

yes exactly what i already say when you are focus call burst heal and def RA.
if you can't survive time of the stun it's the game ! stuned or not you are dead cause if you are not stun sure you are snare the burst continue even if you try to run.
but much player complaining about slam here are stealth and solo or bad group players...

but ok go nerf slam and give to hybrid all change about spells and melee line revamp OK maybe hybrid can be more desirable in group by the same way...
Tue 4 Dec 2018 3:30 AM by Lawdawg
5 second slam for BM and Merc...That is all...
Tue 4 Dec 2018 6:00 AM by Druth
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Dec 2018 11:30 PM
but much player complaining about slam here are stealth and solo or bad group players...


You never commented on my reply about reavers having plenty of stun options, also in PvE.

My guess is that it's just bad players who wants to keep a 9 sec anytime stun.
Tue 4 Dec 2018 1:56 PM by cortexqc
yes in pve reaver have other options.
9 s on parry when not enough point to up parry is useless and you can't count on it + parry useless in rvr
7s after block is not other option is a nerf of 2 s stun for 42+ pve gameplay is 1 leviathan skill less on a monster in 1.65 where reaver don't have correct anytime and useless in rvr.

you have really good arguments. only bad player want to keep 9s stun!
good player don't say to keep it, good players says you can live with it play well and call assist when you see 2 trolls and a norseman with a enormous shield rushing you!
other answer of good player and player loving daoc is you want to make this change like on live so do it but be sure this change on 1.65 skill environment have a big impact on hybrid shield class.

i'm going to play a caster on live so yes i'm looking about frustating slam but look beyond my nose. you want to make a brainstorm about nerfing slam so do it correctly think about side impacts.
Tue 4 Dec 2018 8:29 PM by Cadebrennus
The best balance would be to make Slam for EVERYONE 4 or 5 seconds and change the level 50 style to a rear positional 10 second stun. It would still punish runners heavily but give Shield users a backup if they don't fire off the rear positional. I'm saying this as someone whose main was a Merc for years.
Tue 4 Dec 2018 9:12 PM by Kralin
Cade, if you're not going to consider the arguments against a wide-ranging nerf to slam, then that's another reason to close this topic and lock it up. Nothing new is being said by the anti-slam camp. This is going in circles.
Wed 5 Dec 2018 12:10 AM by cortexqc
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 8:29 PM
The best balance would be to make Slam for EVERYONE 4 or 5 seconds and change the level 50 style to a rear positional 10 second stun. It would still punish runners heavily but give Shield users a backup if they don't fire off the rear positional. I'm saying this as someone whose main was a Merc for years.

i see in another post you are someone claiming a up of ranger "melee damage table" cause they are not on same table as scout and hunter but don't thinking dev have build damage table taking on considerations buff line to balance the 3 archers classes...

do you really think hybrid class can go 50 shield spec?? they can't without making their char broken cause of lack of point in their class specific spell line, they don't have enough point to reach 50 even if 50 be a rear positionnal needing more player skill than an anytime.
much users wanting nerf of the slam are only looking about their own pleasure and not about global impact on "ALL CLASSES" including hybrid with a shield base gameplay...
you are someone have played merc for years? ok good argument loool since the problem is not about BM/merc but about other hybrids depending more on positionnal/reactive to dps...

like Kralin say the question about the nerf is going circle, the only arguments for anti slam is
- slam is too powerfull ! (all CC are powerfull, learn to play with and if you play solo choose you target, daoc is a rock paper scissors game on 1v1 !!)
- slam is nerfed on non tank on live !! (but all class, spells, skills are revamped on live to be less dependant and more powerfull without positionnals !)
- slam is for weak player only and easy skill button ! (and what? yes it's easy and powerfull in 1 vs 1 or 2 v 2 but... Daoc is a group RvR game, group balanced ! if you want a 1v1 balanced game there is much other games.)
- slam need to be nerf for all, there is no impact! ( i have no answer to this arguments other than "LOL" !!! )

The point of pro slam are :
- Don't touch anything we can live with it, learn to play with, groupmate, purge etc... !
- You want to nerf for BM/Merc only but not tank and hybrid ? maybe we can try this impact only 2 class not dependent of stun...
- You want to nerf it for BM/Merc and hybrids ? this change clairly need a fundamental revamp of hybrids.

give me counter arguments of my 3 points other than "slam is for unskilled player" "i think there is no impact" or "hybrid have much other option to stun and dps"
Wed 5 Dec 2018 12:18 AM by Cadebrennus
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 12:10 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Dec 2018 8:29 PM
The best balance would be to make Slam for EVERYONE 4 or 5 seconds and change the level 50 style to a rear positional 10 second stun. It would still punish runners heavily but give Shield users a backup if they don't fire off the rear positional. I'm saying this as someone whose main was a Merc for years.

i see in another post you are someone claiming a up of ranger "melee damage table" cause they are not on same table as scout and hunter but don't thinking dev have build damage table taking on considerations buff line to balance the 3 archers classes...

do you really think hybrid class can go 50 shield spec?? they can't without making their char broken cause of lack of point in their class specific spell line, they don't have enough point to reach 50 even if 50 be a rear positionnal needing more player skill than an anytime.
much users wanting nerf of the slam are only looking about their own pleasure and not about global impact on "ALL CLASSES" including hybrid with a shield base gameplay...
you are someone have played merc for years? ok good argument loool since the problem is not about BM/merc but about other hybrids depending more on positionnal/reactive to dps...

like Kralin say the question about the nerf is going circle, the only arguments for anti slam is
- slam is too powerfull ! (all CC are powerfull, learn to play with and if you play solo choose you target, daoc is a rock paper scissors game on 1v1 !!)
- slam is nerfed on non tank on live !! (but all class, spells, skills are revamped on live to be less dependant and more powerfull without positionnals !)
- slam is for weak player only and easy skill button ! (and what? yes it's easy and powerfull in 1 vs 1 or 2 v 2 but... Daoc is a group RvR game, group balanced ! if you want a 1v1 balanced game there is much other games.)
- slam need to be nerf for all, there is no impact! ( i have no answer to this arguments other than "LOL" !!! )

The point of pro slam are :
- Don't touch anything we can live with it, learn to play with, groupmate, purge etc... !
- You want to nerf for BM/Merc only but not tank and hybrid ? maybe we can try this impact only 2 class not dependent of stun...
- You want to nerf it for BM/Merc and hybrids ? this change clairly need a fundamental revamp of hybrids.

give me counter arguments of my 3 points other than "slam is for unskilled player" "i think there is no impact" or "hybrid have much other option to stun and dps"

I've never made those claims so someone else will have to argue those points with you. Don't you dare put words in my mouth. Right now you are this guy:

Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:07 AM by cortexqc
You and your pics... You are just a troll. Between us I don't have to proove I'm the most open minded about changes but done correctly. This subject is close for me cause all is already say on the 10 other pages.
Wed 5 Dec 2018 8:48 AM by Druth
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 12:10 AM
like Kralin say the question about the nerf is going circle, the only arguments for anti slam is
- slam is too powerfull ! (all CC are powerfull, learn to play with and if you play solo choose you target, daoc is a rock paper scissors game on 1v1 !!)
- slam is nerfed on non tank on live !! (but all class, spells, skills are revamped on live to be less dependant and more powerfull without positionnals !)
- slam is for weak player only and easy skill button ! (and what? yes it's easy and powerfull in 1 vs 1 or 2 v 2 but... Daoc is a group RvR game, group balanced ! if you want a 1v1 balanced game there is much other games.)
- slam need to be nerf for all, there is no impact! ( i have no answer to this arguments other than "LOL" !!! )

The point of pro slam are :
- Don't touch anything we can live with it, learn to play with, groupmate, purge etc... !
- You want to nerf for BM/Merc only but not tank and hybrid ? maybe we can try this impact only 2 class not dependent of stun...
- You want to nerf it for BM/Merc and hybrids ? this change clairly need a fundamental revamp of hybrids.

give me counter arguments of my 3 points other than "slam is for unskilled player" "i think there is no impact" or "hybrid have much other option to stun and dps"

Okay, thanks for trying to keep it constructive
And don't worry, we are theorizing, they are too close to launch to do anything now.

My main problem with slam is that contrary to any other anytime style in the game, you get near perfect result with slam.
I think this is a very bad design, and I think best result should also come from conditional effort (effort=result), the typical anytime style are taunt styles and they all have around 0.5 growth rate, while positionals have 0.8+ thats a huge difference, compared to going from 9 sec anytime to 10 sec of block.
You say, well you need 42 spec for it? Sure, but going from 35 to 42 gives you a 1 sec better stun, that is anytime, and if any melee class had a 42 anytime style at 1.0 growth rate, people would be yelling nerf.
So my main problem is bad design.


My 3 mains right now are: Reaver, VW and paladin.
My reaver would do sidestun (8sec) for groups, or parry/block chain (9 sec/5sec combined with high damage style) for solo. Keep in mind dodger is gone, so easier to hit assassins.
My paladin is already not shield specced, because... fun? And I learned to live without it even in groups I get a sidesnare+9stun, or backsnare+7sec stun, and it works.
Is slam better? Of course it would be, but I fully understand that to have the best result be anytime is a bad design.

I do not think hybrids would be hurt much more by this than other melee, because all melee relies on positionals for max damage output, and all retains the option of 8+ sec conditional/positional stuns, just with more effort (effort=result). And one reason why hybrids have a hard time is lack of survival+stoicism, both would be helped if they didn't have to keep purge for slam and/or could survive the shorter stun, and then could use purge for root.
I do think bm/merc would be hurt the most, because they have very very weak stuns in their melee styles, and having to stay with shield longer while trying to land sidestun would hurt their dps a lot. Contra example paladin+champ+vw which has high dps stun styles.


My second problem is balance, and I mean in melee dominance, and as you can see from my mains only VW would even come close to being a basis for me being biased and wanting casters buffed.
Melee rules, they have massive damage, they have det+stoic, they have 9 sec anytime stuns unaffected by det/stoic, they have snares making escape impossible unless you have melee to stop them, and then why not just go all melee?
So to me nerfing slam would be a minor boost to caster groups, which I think is needed.
Thu 6 Dec 2018 8:46 PM by Schamalow
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 12:10 AM
The point of pro slam are :
- Don't touch anything we can live with it, learn to play with, groupmate, purge etc... !
- You want to nerf for BM/Merc only but not tank and hybrid ? maybe we can try this impact only 2 class not dependent of stun...
- You want to nerf it for BM/Merc and hybrids ? this change clairly need a fundamental revamp of hybrids.

give me counter arguments of my 3 points other than "slam is for unskilled player" "i think there is no impact" or "hybrid have much other option to stun and dps"

My post page 9.

"slam is for unskilled player" = Slam + /switch command is unskilled not the player.
"i think there is no impact" = BM / Merc would have multiple spec. I believe it's a good point. Right now, can you give me an example how you spec without 42 in shield line who is worth it in RvR?
"hybrid have much other option to stun and dps" = Off topic but true. Hybrid shouldn't be main slammer anyway.
Thu 6 Dec 2018 11:39 PM by NoExit
Don´t chase for the presently most annoying utility and call for a nerf.
There will be always a "next one" which is proper to cry for a nerf/adjustment,
this will never come to an end.

I´m mostly play duo/solo and if i miss the initial slam to other tanks i have to deal with it
for 9 seconds or purge. Nothing else.

Off Topic: Changing slam will have most impact on small man, solo and alb 8-man. Merc and maybe BM will vanish from fields.
Fri 7 Dec 2018 3:45 AM by Cadebrennus
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:07 AM
You and your pics... You are just a troll. Between us I don't have to proove I'm the most open minded about changes but done correctly. This subject is close for me cause all is already say on the 10 other pages.

And yet you still misunderstand and mis-quote everything. At this point I really don't care much for the Phoenix server but I'll be damned if I'll let some keyboard warrior misrepresent me.

Show me one place where I claimed Rangers are or should be on a higher melee damage table on the Phoenix forms and I'll leave DAOC forever regardless of server. Btw here's where you claimed I said that:

"i see in another post you are someone claiming a up of ranger "melee damage table" cause they are not on same table as scout and hunter but don't thinking dev have build damage table taking on considerations buff line to balance the 3 archers classes..."
Fri 7 Dec 2018 4:26 AM by cortexqc
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Dec 2018 3:45 AM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:07 AM
You and your pics... You are just a troll. Between us I don't have to proove I'm the most open minded about changes but done correctly. This subject is close for me cause all is already say on the 10 other pages.

And yet you still misunderstand and mis-quote everything. At this point I really don't care much for the Phoenix server but I'll be damned if I'll let some keyboard warrior misrepresent me.

Show me one place where I claimed Rangers are or should be on a higher melee damage table on the Phoenix forms and I'll leave DAOC forever regardless of server. Btw here's where you claimed I said that:

"i see in another post you are someone claiming a up of ranger "melee damage table" cause they are not on same table as scout and hunter but don't thinking dev have build damage table taking on considerations buff line to balance the 3 archers classes..."

maybe i misunderstanded some post, you have my public apologizes, that correct for you? you give me the absolution ? i'm not En or US and sometime i make mistake about the meaning of certains word/sentences. and maybe i'm little vindicative vs some suggestions about nerf when i see all the lasts changes making the server so far from just classic server with QoL.
Fri 7 Dec 2018 8:17 AM by Cadebrennus
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Dec 2018 4:26 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Dec 2018 3:45 AM
cortexqc wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Dec 2018 2:07 AM
You and your pics... You are just a troll. Between us I don't have to proove I'm the most open minded about changes but done correctly. This subject is close for me cause all is already say on the 10 other pages.

And yet you still misunderstand and mis-quote everything. At this point I really don't care much for the Phoenix server but I'll be damned if I'll let some keyboard warrior misrepresent me.

Show me one place where I claimed Rangers are or should be on a higher melee damage table on the Phoenix forms and I'll leave DAOC forever regardless of server. Btw here's where you claimed I said that:

"i see in another post you are someone claiming a up of ranger "melee damage table" cause they are not on same table as scout and hunter but don't thinking dev have build damage table taking on considerations buff line to balance the 3 archers classes..."

maybe i misunderstanded some post, you have my public apologizes, that correct for you? you give me the absolution ? i'm not En or US and sometime i make mistake about the meaning of certains word/sentences. and maybe i'm little vindicative vs some suggestions about nerf when i see all the lasts changes making the server so far from just classic server with QoL.

I figured that language was the issue so no worries. I wanted to confirm with you that it was the issue. I know that many of the people who post in the forums most often are passionate people, myself included.
Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:35 AM by Steelhead23rus
Ombrix wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 10:52 PM
Doesn’t matter about the spec.

Just be honest. 9sec slam by a light tank, you die. So anyway this have to be change. That’s it.

« I win button » need to be nerf. Doesn’t matter wich class got it.

And tank need to be more tanky i swear. My team mate play BM, you know what he do to armsman / warrior ? Really, why play tank when you die like that. Useless.

Take a look at BD's then. 1 button class who are already freely can kill any melee in the game. And people are complaining about their BD compared to live bla bla. That is Classic server and it has to be Classic. Nobody needs such toa changes here. Acting like that will kill the server.
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:21 AM by Steelhead23rus
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 7:50 AM
My second problem is balance, and I mean in melee dominance


What kind of melee dominance we are talking about ? Just look at the groups, its full caster setups with probably 1 melee for peeling. All the mercs/reaver/pallys and all other hibrids/lighttanks from other realms are forced to go solo by current changes, to do at least something in rvr. And for example of a slam solo its purged all the way so only players above rr2 with no purge can be triggered by being slammed and killed. Another example that BD's freely running and killing every melee and even with slam i wont do anything to him as a merc(even if he doesnt purge). So help me to see where is the melee dominance please ?
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:43 AM by Druth
Steelhead23rus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:21 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Oct 2018 7:50 AM
My second problem is balance, and I mean in melee dominance


What kind of melee dominance we are talking about ? Just look at the groups, its full caster setups with probably 1 melee for peeling. All the mercs/reaver/pallys and all other hibrids/lighttanks from other realms are forced to go solo by current changes, to do at least something in rvr. And for example of a slam solo its purged all the way so only players above rr2 with no purge can be triggered by being slammed and killed. Another example that BD's freely running and killing every melee and even with slam i wont do anything to him as a merc(even if he doesnt purge). So help me to see where is the melee dominance please ?

You grabbed a 4½ month old post...?

If you go back to vnboard archives you can prob dig up something I said there that no longer has value.
Mon 18 Feb 2019 1:57 PM by Steelhead23rus
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:43 AM
You grabbed a 4½ month old post...?

If you go back to vnboard archives you can prob dig up something I said there that no longer has value.

Who cares about post time. Answer the question
Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:08 PM by Druth
Steelhead23rus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 1:57 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:43 AM
You grabbed a 4½ month old post...?

If you go back to vnboard archives you can prob dig up something I said there that no longer has value.

Who cares about post time. Answer the question

Don't necro peoples posts, it was made back in Beta when RvR looked very different.

We have zerg v zerg fights now, so obviously casters are better.
And I care about RvR balance.
Tue 19 Feb 2019 7:57 PM by Steelhead23rus
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:08 PM
Don't necro peoples posts, it was made back in Beta when RvR looked very different.

We have zerg v zerg fights now, so obviously casters are better.
And I care about RvR balance.

There is no balance since no melee is in rvr groups and you want to make their life even harder. Nice vision of a balance)
Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:59 PM by Druth
Steelhead23rus wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 7:57 PM
There is no balance since no melee is in rvr groups and you want to make their life even harder. Nice vision of a balance)

That is not true.

And slam favours only a group of melee, that doesn't have to worry about positionals when stunning.
Bad design.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 12:25 AM by razzim
change slam to 5s on light tanks
Fri 12 Apr 2019 5:25 AM by Arla
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 6:32 AM
Currently with the easy switch-macro you see every merc/BM spec 42 Shield for Slam. Slam target, switch to DW/CD and goto town on the victim. And while I understand Shield-spec is an investment, it feels like it reduces the usefulness of heavy-tanks.

There is currently almost no reason to run Hero over a BM in any scenario. BM does better DPS, has Advanced Evade which causes him to be harder to peel, has the same 9 sec stun, etc. Even the reduced RA-costs for heavy-tanks went to light-tanks too.

I think a lot of people aren't happy with the 9 sec stun on light-tanks, perhaps it is an idea to reduce Slam for light-tanks (and light-tanks only!) to ~5 seconds?

NO
Tue 23 Apr 2019 9:26 AM by Jarkheld
I'd reduce slam duration even for thane/champ
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:38 AM by Lillebror
Slam is a killer vs none det classes.
VS high det classes it last shorter than a manuel weapon swap.

Stun is one of the worst ways to die, that and slow disease kited kills. you feel so helpless
Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:04 PM by Yzeron
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:38 AM
Slam is a killer vs none det classes.
VS high det classes it last shorter than a manuel weapon swap.

Stun is one of the worst ways to die, that and slow disease kited kills. you feel so helpless

DET reduces melee stun duration here? Sure doesn't feel that way
Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:14 PM by Lillebror
Oh my bad, i only have my Insta stun that is just a waste of power
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:53 PM by Sepplord
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:14 PM
Oh my bad, i only have my Insta stun that is just a waste of power

yeah....slam on average is even better on DET-classes...as they often have a lesser purge or no purge at all


but a casted stun? Nothing more than a slight FPS-lag ^^
Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:41 AM by Cadebrennus
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:38 AM
Slam is a killer vs none det classes.
VS high det classes it last shorter than a manuel weapon swap.

Stun is one of the worst ways to die, that and slow disease kited kills. you feel so helpless

Melee stuns are not affected by Det.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 3:47 PM by qq6
add reaver to this topic plz, more fun to be had in melee fights

///hides from doppler
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:49 AM by HtGeist
Could just set slam stun duration after shield size large 9 sec medium 7 sec small 5 sec. ofc..that would hurt scouts unintendedly...could agree with a custom phoenix full tanks armsman,warrior,hero 9 sec thane,reaver,champ 7 sec merc,bm 5 sec and leave the scouts their 1 merit.

Edit: could even accept champs and thanes on 5 sec slam,cos ST cheese.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:22 AM by Cadebrennus
HtGeist wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:49 AM
Could just set slam stun duration after shield size large 9 sec medium 7 sec small 5 sec. ofc..that would hurt scouts unintendedly...could agree with a custom phoenix full tanks armsman,warrior,hero 9 sec thane,reaver,champ 7 sec merc,bm 5 sec and leave the scouts their 1 merit.

Edit: could even accept champs and thanes on 5 sec slam,cos ST cheese.

That's probably the best idea I've ever seen regarding shields. Phoenix Devs have already adjusted shield block % for arrows based on size, why not set it for Slam duration too? I
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:49 AM by Muse
I am playin a Champ and i Would Love to See Slam durstion tewaked down to 5 Second
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:59 AM by Strays
Signed.. Hybrid slam was 5 seconds on live during this time line due to the overwhelming dominance slam brings.

Melee fights should be decided by more than 42 points in shield.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 3:38 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Strays wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 10:59 AM
Signed.. Hybrid slam was 5 seconds on live during this time line due to the overwhelming dominance slam brings.

Melee fights should be decided by more than 42 points in shield.

Agree'd. This would also be a buff to heavy tanks as slam should be their bread and butter. There are far too many classes with access to 9s slam that don't need it. Hybrids and light tanks should be depending on their weapon reactionary stuns for longer duration and shield stuns for short duration if absolutely necessary (Phoenix Dev's should look into implementing 4s duration side stun in DW and LA with reducing slam duration).
Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:48 PM by Dindelion
This was one of the best change mythic did, I agree. It will help making heavy tanks more appealing too, light tanks do a lot of the same work with better dps. Only at very high RR a heavy tank becomes "specialized" with its RAs, which is kind of a huge mountain to climb.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:47 PM by kmark101
Agree with this. Light tanks should have max 5s slam stun.
Hybrids I think are ok with the 9s, they are suffering on the lower WS table as a compensation.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:23 PM by Amp_Phetamine
kmark101 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:47 PM
Agree with this. Light tanks should have max 5s slam stun.
Hybrids I think are ok with the 9s, they are suffering on the lower WS table as a compensation.

Disagree.

The only 3 classes that should have access to 9s slam are the Warrior, Hero and Armsman.

Hybrids get access to at least one realm ability to aid them in dealing with multiple attackers and their lower WS (static tempest). They also have lower weaponskill due to their magical abilities (which more than make up for what they lack in raw offensive output).
Thu 9 May 2019 4:54 AM by Aidereh
No change in stun is needed, they are losing a lot of damage potential specing shields.
And you should have purge for this.


On a personal note: Melee DPS such as these shouldn't be able to spec shields.

A
Thu 9 May 2019 8:27 AM by teiloh
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:23 PM
Disagree.

The only 3 classes that should have access to 9s slam are the Warrior, Hero and Armsman.

Hybrids get access to at least one realm ability to aid them in dealing with multiple attackers and their lower WS (static tempest). They also have lower weaponskill due to their magical abilities (which more than make up for what they lack in raw offensive output).

This would hit Scouts/Reavers/Paladins hard and they're not doing great atm.

Champions would barely be affected as they already have Anni.
Thu 9 May 2019 1:30 PM by Amp_Phetamine
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:27 AM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:23 PM
Disagree.

The only 3 classes that should have access to 9s slam are the Warrior, Hero and Armsman.

Hybrids get access to at least one realm ability to aid them in dealing with multiple attackers and their lower WS (static tempest). They also have lower weaponskill due to their magical abilities (which more than make up for what they lack in raw offensive output).

This would hit Scouts/Reavers/Paladins hard and they're not doing great atm.

Champions would barely be affected as they already have Anni.

Yeah it certainly crossed my mind how certain hybrids and scouts would handle the change if it ever comes. Reavers would be okay because they still have their parry 9s stun option, Paladins would be okay if they had celerity chant, scouts would be bitch slapped into the ground (as they are on Live).

I still stand by the concept that only Heavy Tanks should have access to slam; however, those three classes would need compensation (obviously the scout and paladin far more so than the reaver - yet all three qualify).
Fri 10 May 2019 2:16 PM by Peppar
No change in bm/merc slam plz
Wed 15 May 2019 11:37 AM by Nefcait
Lower Slam to 5s for Bm/Merc, I agree. Hybrids are not in such a great spot that they need a slam nerf
Fri 17 May 2019 3:49 PM by metaljames
NO CHANGE. you jokers calling for 5s slam must not be playing light tank. its already unbalanced because mercs have better armor, and on this server hit harder than bm. elf pierce bm hits a af buffed merc for around 120mainhand. yeah that's chain armor. tri-wield is a more of a joke than the players calling for 5s slam, it wont hit for more than 30 on mainhand. as you can imagine my ras are group spec which means 1v1 I am at a disadvantage from all the low lifes that come down to cg. now you want to take away 3s for the slim chance this solo specced person doesn't have purge up. do you guys even think before you post stuff like this or just think EA did it, it must be a good change?
Fri 17 May 2019 10:07 PM by Isavyr
metaljames wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 3:49 PM
its already unbalanced because mercs have better armor, and on this server hit harder than bm.

Meanwhile BM has better dodge by 10%, so it's a non-issue.

metaljames wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 3:49 PM
elf pierce bm hits an af buffed merc for around 120mainhand. yeah that's chain armor.

Ok what is the point? Is that too low for you? The DPS is pretty similar between BM and Merc, which sucks for merc because their peeling ability is comparatively awful.

metaljames wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 3:49 PM
tri-wield is a more of a joke than the players calling for 5s slam, it wont hit for more than 30 on mainhand.

Use a slower weapon and it'll look bigger--I'm not sure why you dislike triple wield but it's considered amazing by most players--there's no downside like Berserking. It sounds like you don't appreciate what you play. You should--the BM has great styles (back, side snare, side stun, high DPS side-style chain) and is probably overall the best light-tank.
Sat 18 May 2019 2:46 AM by Shmoopie
As long as we have gimped charge then leave it alone
Mon 20 May 2019 7:04 AM by Sepplord
...120mainhand hits, boosted by 30 with TW...

...25% Dmg boost called a joke by the BM player...

...asks others to think before they post...

Wed 22 May 2019 9:10 AM by lbrillault
Just adjust slam time with shield sizes and increase speed recovery as well.
Large for 9s with longer recovery, medium for 5s with the same as today's large recovery and small for 3s with today's medium.

I don't know if I'm really clear...?
Thu 23 May 2019 1:38 AM by Cadebrennus
lbrillault wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 9:10 AM
Just adjust slam time with shield sizes and increase speed recovery as well.
Large for 9s with longer recovery, medium for 5s with the same as today's large recovery and small for 3s with today's medium.

I don't know if I'm really clear...?

Excellent idea
Fri 24 May 2019 6:30 AM by trawetsnivek
Mercenaries are already one of the least played classes in the game. Routinely in the bottom 5 when you type /serverinfo.

Boosting heavy tanks by nerfing light tanks isn't the solution to get more people to play heavy tanks. You do realize that not many people play mercs right? Nerfing mercs will just make the game more caster-centric. It's already hard enough to get a group in alb as a tank and by nerfing slam, it will just make it that much harder to get a group.

If you want to boost heavy tank numbers give them something that doesn't involve nerfing another class.
Mon 27 May 2019 5:31 AM by jelzinga_EU
metaljames wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 3:49 PM
NO CHANGE. you jokers calling for 5s slam must not be playing light tank. its already unbalanced because mercs have better armor, and on this server hit harder than bm. elf pierce bm hits a af buffed merc for around 120mainhand. yeah that's chain armor. tri-wield is a more of a joke than the players calling for 5s slam, it wont hit for more than 30 on mainhand. as you can imagine my ras are group spec which means 1v1 I am at a disadvantage from all the low lifes that come down to cg. now you want to take away 3s for the slim chance this solo specced person doesn't have purge up. do you guys even think before you post stuff like this or just think EA did it, it must be a good change?

Not sure if serious - but originally I made this topic >half a year ago in beta when we still had OF-RA's (meaning: 30 mins Purge). This is less of an issue now, but the fact the topic is still active shows there is still some discussion about it.

If you do 120 MH as Pierce on a Merc as a Blademaster I would probably check my weapons, templates and buffs.
Mon 27 May 2019 6:25 PM by tweedledumb99
I dont see why light tanks need nerfed slam. Dont see what problem that will solve.
Fri 7 Jun 2019 2:16 PM by boing1
9sec slam is the classic setup. i loved it .. other tanks got det to reduce the down time.. so no prob from them. most ppl already got rr4+ tank-chars soo they should have no problem going det 5000+ ^^ and having no probems with 9sec stun
Fri 7 Jun 2019 2:49 PM by vxr
boing1 wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 2:16 PM
9sec slam is the classic setup. i loved it .. other tanks got det to reduce the down time.. so no prob from them. most ppl already got rr4+ tank-chars soo they should have no problem going det 5000+ ^^ and having no probems with 9sec stun

Melee stuns are unaffected by det,.
Tue 11 Jun 2019 9:46 AM by Sepplord
boing1 wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 2:16 PM
9sec slam is the classic setup. i loved it .. other tanks got det to reduce the down time.. so no prob from them. most ppl already got rr4+ tank-chars soo they should have no problem going det 5000+ ^^ and having no probems with 9sec stun

det doesn't do anything VS meleestuns

thanks for your "valuable" opinion
Thu 13 Jun 2019 5:52 AM by Fames
All you see running around are caster groups. But sure, nerf light tanks even more , after not giving them charge ,and make the last of them vanish.

Welcome to Dark Age of Castalot
Sat 15 Jun 2019 4:33 AM by buffalo1010
Nerf light tanks and say goodbye to the last few. No!
Sat 15 Jun 2019 12:08 PM by Killaloth
We have 16 pages of complaint about a class with 2 max 3 active players over RR8? It has to be an OP class.

Want something to change? I'd like to see bonedancers use the same mana they use on Uthgard, i.e. you need a good rank only to keep your mana up. We all know which are the OP classes in need of a nerf - I don't think BM is one of them.

PS: I can die to any rr4+ capable stealther with my OP class.
Mon 17 Jun 2019 9:55 AM by Caemma
Yeah sure.
They lost charge already, which is quite a nerf, let's not QQ even more please.

Switch macro is just a QoL for a tedious mechanic that has really low impact on slamming for BM/Merc.. It does help more shield switch for solo tanks and weapon swap for assassins.
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 AM by Muse
While everyone only Sees the negative side of the Reduktion, how about take a Look at the Pros u idiots.

If You Slam a Target, it gets purged 90% of the Time. That causes a 45sek immunity. While a 5s Slam gices a 25 sek immunity. U can stun more often, and purge doesnt have such an impact.
Also There is the Benefit of a splitspec, which causes more Benefit to the Most Classes. The stupidity of Slamming random targets Takes Away tsctics to Punish Instant stun purges. But Go on, its all the way negative, no Pros for it. sure if 90% of the Server have Slam on the quickbar from 1-10
Mon 17 Jun 2019 12:21 PM by Sepplord
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 AM
While everyone only Sees the negative side of the Reduktion, how about take a Look at the Pros u idiots.

If You Slam a Target, it gets purged 90% of the Time. That causes a 45sek immunity. While a 5s Slam gices a 25 sek immunity. U can stun more often, and purge doesnt have such an impact.
Also There is the Benefit of a splitspec, which causes more Benefit to the Most Classes. The stupidity of Slamming random targets Takes Away tsctics to Punish Instant stun purges. But Go on, its all the way negative, no Pros for it. sure if 90% of the Server have Slam on the quickbar from 1-10

you could have sounded so reasonable, if you had just refrained from calling everyone an idiot as opening statement
Mon 17 Jun 2019 12:23 PM by IamKaia
i agree with that suggested change. I think it would help make heavy tanks more attractive.
Mon 17 Jun 2019 4:34 PM by Muse
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 12:21 PM
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 AM
While everyone only Sees the negative side of the Reduktion, how about take a Look at the Pros u idiots.

If You Slam a Target, it gets purged 90% of the Time. That causes a 45sek immunity. While a 5s Slam gices a 25 sek immunity. U can stun more often, and purge doesnt have such an impact.
Also There is the Benefit of a splitspec, which causes more Benefit to the Most Classes. The stupidity of Slamming random targets Takes Away tsctics to Punish Instant stun purges. But Go on, its all the way negative, no Pros for it. sure if 90% of the Server have Slam on the quickbar from 1-10

you could have sounded so reasonable, if you had just refrained from calling everyone an idiot as opening statement

i know, just doesnt change anything if your nice or rude. fact is, people only see the negative sides of a change
Mon 17 Jun 2019 9:39 PM by Sepplord
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 4:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 12:21 PM
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 AM
While everyone only Sees the negative side of the Reduktion, how about take a Look at the Pros u idiots.

If You Slam a Target, it gets purged 90% of the Time. That causes a 45sek immunity. While a 5s Slam gices a 25 sek immunity. U can stun more often, and purge doesnt have such an impact.
Also There is the Benefit of a splitspec, which causes more Benefit to the Most Classes. The stupidity of Slamming random targets Takes Away tsctics to Punish Instant stun purges. But Go on, its all the way negative, no Pros for it. sure if 90% of the Server have Slam on the quickbar from 1-10

you could have sounded so reasonable, if you had just refrained from calling everyone an idiot as opening statement

i know, just doesnt change anything if your nice or rude. fact is, people only see the negative sides of a change

If you believe it doesnt change anything, why do you choose to be rude instead of nice?

I doubt that it doesnt change anything, but if you are right it is even more mindboggling why you would be rude...
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:00 PM by Hwatever
As a warrior, a heavy tank from the melee realm, getting slammed by all these DPS classes from other realms, I was annoyed.

Then I realized their shield doesn't gain their DW penetration, they significantly reduce their weaponskill or best style spec/style growth to do this, and that I can only be slammed by one tank anyway.

Now I just say "meh."
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 PM by gotwqqd
Hwatever wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:00 PM
As a warrior, a heavy tank from the melee realm, getting slammed by all these DPS classes from other realms, I was annoyed.

Then I realized their shield doesn't gain their DW penetration, they significantly reduce their weaponskill or best style spec/style growth to do this, and that I can only be slammed by one tank anyway.

Now I just say "meh."
They can always slam then swap to another weapon for DW
Tue 18 Jun 2019 12:40 AM by Killaloth
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 11:39 AM
While everyone only Sees the negative side of the Reduktion, how about take a Look at the Pros u idiots.

If You Slam a Target, it gets purged 90% of the Time. That causes a 45sek immunity. While a 5s Slam gices a 25 sek immunity. U can stun more often, and purge doesnt have such an impact.
Also There is the Benefit of a splitspec, which causes more Benefit to the Most Classes. The stupidity of Slamming random targets Takes Away tsctics to Punish Instant stun purges. But Go on, its all the way negative, no Pros for it. sure if 90% of the Server have Slam on the quickbar from 1-10

?

If a BM wants a shorter stun duration to be able to slam for 9 secs later the options are:

Numb - 2 secs anytime shield
CD side stun - 4 secs
Paralyze - 6 secs back shield stun

Adding a 5secs anytime stun to these 3 already existing options and losing a 9secs stun is not an advantage at all.

Again, there are 2-3 active BMs over RR8 on this server, but we are so OP that we will soon outnumber bonedancers and necromancers. BMs everywhere! We shred ministrels throwing purple finliaths at us because we rule the server man, we so much need a nerf!

For instance Mythic knew that BMs are the most OP class out there so had to nerf us with 40 seconds bleeding on our sidechain that breaks all cc's.

I used to play a savage and had some fun to 2-shot casters but it was too gimp for me so I decided to roll a BM, now I 1-shot all casters and it feels good.

I am so sorry to ruin your 8vs8 with my OP class, as you know the setup with chant/eldritch/mentalist and one random slammer is a thing of the past. Once pro groups realised that the BMs were making more damage than mentalists on heat debuffed targets everything changed.

Hib tank groups are now ruling the server and the abundance of BMs makes them the pillar of the strongest setup out there.

Mid tank groups with celerity: get your /rel macros ready, BMs are coming to destroy you and rule the frontiers forevah.
Tue 18 Jun 2019 5:12 AM by Muse
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 9:39 PM
Muse wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 4:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Jun 2019 12:21 PM
you could have sounded so reasonable, if you had just refrained from calling everyone an idiot as opening statement

i know, just doesnt change anything if your nice or rude. fact is, people only see the negative sides of a change

If you believe it doesnt change anything, why do you choose to be rude instead of nice?

I doubt that it doesnt change anything, but if you are right it is even more mindboggling why you would be rude...

See the post above from killaloth, cant be nice with People like that
Tue 18 Jun 2019 7:58 AM by Kampfar
Loved to read it and i dont even play bm nor hib 😅
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