Why not bring Camo back for archers ?!? Gms please tell me

I would like to know what the thought is about CAMO. The only benefit I can find for having it atm is I can actually get somewhere without being ganked by Assassins. Its on a timer so if I engage in battle its gone for ( cant remember how long). Right now i'm sure we archers feel like free RPs to ALL ASSASSINS and full groups that roam all over. The only one who would cry about this are all the Assassins who cant get as many free Rps but they have a lot of other targets to kill anyways

The other day I am stealthed and I see two Luri's come into my monitor screen, I immediately unstealth and sprint but before I can get away they have already hit me from behind with weapons ( FROM LIKE 10 FEET AWAY). + spells. I bet I have been killed 90%+ when we see each other at the same time. Their melee reach is almost the same as my Stealth detection.

So please bring back Camo so I have a chance to walk by an Assassin and not /release

Thank you

Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by Expfighter

Bobbahunter wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:29 PM
I would like to know what the thought is about CAMO. The only benefit I can find for having it atm is I can actually get somewhere without being ganked by Assassins. Its on a timer so if I engage in battle its gone for ( cant remember how long). Right now i'm sure we archers feel like free RPs to ALL ASSASSINS and full groups that roam all over. The only one who would cry about this are all the Assassins who cant get as many free Rps but they have a lot of other targets to kill anyways

The other day I am stealthed and I see two Luri's come into my monitor screen, I immediately unstealth and sprint but before I can get away they have already hit me from behind with weapons ( FROM LIKE 10 FEET AWAY). + spells. I bet I have been killed 90%+ when we see each other at the same time. Their melee reach is almost the same as my Stealth detection.

So please bring back Camo so I have a chance to walk by an Assassin and not /release

Thank you

i've been saying this for a while now, in the archer thread this is one of the points i brought up!

Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM by Cadebrennus

The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:32 PM by Expfighter

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM
The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

yes PLEASE!

Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM by semadin

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM
The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM by Cadebrennus

semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM
The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:12 AM by Durgrim

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM
The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

why not if the output of custom detecting capabilities remain as it is on this server?

I do get killed very rarely on my Hunter. Try to hunt elsewhere then, adapt your behavior to the capabilities / drawbacks of your toon you have chosen to play.
As it is now, go hunting in XP/Farm areas..there is plenty to do. Camp unpopular highways or choke points.
Assassins will stick where the most traffic is, the most RP.....this AINT your place. By choosing an archer, especially when solo, you have chosen another path and already accepted slower RP gain, lesser fighting.
Im fine with that, because I like the class

Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM by Stoertebecker

Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:04 AM by inoeth

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

he doesnt even realize that something must bebroken with the class when you have to rely on killing pre 50s lol

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:22 AM by Sepplord

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

Looking for superior challenge
Whines because a single class can find them in stealth better than the other way around

I disagree with his points though, archers have many more opportunities to get RP, from my experience they aren't slower than assassin.
He is correct though on the chosen path...i don't believe anyone who made an archer that they created the character completely without ganking and easy-fightadding from safe positions in mind.
I know that there are probably exceptions, but those also don't whine on the forum. Archers have so many situations they can take advantage. Being an opportunist is so much easier on archers.

It is also mindboggling why so many want MOS detection back. In Solo-stealthwars MOS-detection will just take away 2-3RRs from every stealther and not change a thing. What becomes available though is going max-MOS and play destealth-bot for the stealth or normal zerg. I wonder why people find that attractive, but scoff at someone mentioning that archers are the best adder-class in existance.

PS: i am all for giving archers camoflage back though

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM by Durgrim

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - would you not agree?

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:34 AM by Sepplord

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM
wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - wouldn't you not agree?

I disagree, killing a necro is much harder

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:40 AM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:04 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

he doesnt even realize that something must bebroken with the class when you have to rely on killing pre 50s lol

No, I don't rely on killing pre-50...I also happily camp highways and kill Assasins that just jumped a pre50toon
I do attack 50ish casters if alone on highways as well and hope they just don't /face quick enough

I don't think that anything is broken with this class. I just refuse (personally) to play it as a melee. So I needed to adapt to its capabilities and enjoy it for the skills they have. Sure, I think the dmg rate should be increased the more points you spec into archery, yes, but I am happy with the class how it is. Yep, I am 50 Stealth and 49 Archery - for what I want to do with the class, my perfect spec: I outrun every assassin stealthed and can change positions very quickly unseen, especially when re-stealthed after being tracked.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:41 AM by Durgrim

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:34 AM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM
wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - wouldn't you not agree?

I disagree, killing a necro is much harder

all you need to have is patience.....

after 1-2 careful pulls @ sprites he will pull 2 spawns

and that's it then. Kill Abo, enjoy RP

Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:45 AM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:22 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

Looking for superior challenge
Whines because a single class can find them in stealth better than the other way around

I disagree with his points though, archers have many more opportunities to get RP, from my experience they aren't slower than assassin.
He is correct though on the chosen path...i don't believe anyone who made an archer that they created the character completely without ganking and easy-fightadding from safe positions in mind.
I know that there are probably exceptions, but those also don't whine on the forum. Archers have so many situations they can take advantage. Being an opportunist is so much easier on archers.

It is also mindboggling why so many want MOS detection back. In Solo-stealthwars MOS-detection will just take away 2-3RRs from every stealther and not change a thing. What becomes available though is going max-MOS and play destealth-bot for the stealth or normal zerg. I wonder why people find that attractive, but scoff at someone mentioning that archers are the best adder-class in existance.

PS: i am all for giving archers camoflage back though

you never played archer huh?
i would be glad to give away 20 ra points to get mos back
getting mos with nf was mindblowing back in the days and i really loved it
only because you dont want to spend ra points, doesnt mean everybody else dosnt want it too
i didnt create an archer for adding and ganking

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:20 AM by Sepplord

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:45 AM
you never played archer huh?
i would be glad to give away 20 ra points to get mos back
getting mos with nf was mindblowing back in the days and i really loved it
i didnt create an archer for adding and ganking

I played mainly archer back in classic, and yes MOS was funny at first, i used up quite an amount of respeccs basically having different MOS every day for a few weeks and then quit. Don't see the relevance though, attack the argument not the person.

i would be glad to give away 20 ra points to get mos back

Have i claimed somewhere that noone wants it? I have layed out pretty well what archers like to do with it and which playstyle the RA is good for.

i didnt create an archer for adding and ganking

I would like to stress that i didnt claim every archer to be created FOR adding and ganking, i consciously said "created the character completely without ganking and easy-fightadding from safe positions in mind. And even if you are the snowflake that did. The way of argumentation is akin to a sorcerer asking for buffs because they didn't "make their Sorcerer for MEzzing or having a Pet". Archer have the best adding/ganking capabilities in the current metagame, and just because you chose to neglect those strengths, doesn't mean they should be disregarded

But let's hear it, what exactly did you create the archer for? If you cared to elaborate we might find out if just our definition of the word ganking is differing or if there is a different problem

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:27 AM by Stoertebecker

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - would you not agree?

I´m pretty sure that you`re not able to kill a necro 1v1 as an archer if the necro is on the same skill and ra level like you, and not afk.

If killing poorly templated toons that are leveling or farming with mobs on their butts is your path...go on, no prob.
But that isn`t rvr, that is kinda like shooting blue mobs, a very skill based job.

Paìng casters is an assassins job, not jumping on full tanks, winning the fight with ease while reapplying poison like mad.

But ok, changes are on the way, Maybe it`s getting a bit better for archers then.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:38 PM by Bobbahunter

Guys, I only want to have a chance to sneak past them.

There are so many other thing that I could ask for, more dmg for Bow spec. Pet Snare, longer speed spell, .......... I'm fine playing a Kite/Sniper Hunter. I know the risks when I draw on my target.

I'm sure if you removed Vanish (get of of death) ability you would have Assassins asking for it back. All I want is the (stay away from Death) ability we once had.

I don't think its overpowering and it is not in any way going to help me kill people easier or help me do more dmg.

Thanks for all the replies but id still like to know why it was taken out ??? What was the thought process on its mechanics? Do they think its OPed?

Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:53 PM by Durgrim

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:27 AM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Shooting ppl that are leveling or pveìng some stuff, what a superior challenge

wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - would you not agree?

I´m pretty sure that you`re not able to kill a necro 1v1 as an archer if the necro is on the same skill and ra level like you, and not afk.
If killing poorly templated toons that are leveling or farming with mobs on their butts is your path...go on, no prob.
But that isn`t rvr, that is kinda like shooting blue mobs, a very skill based job.

Paìng casters is an assassins job, not jumping on full tanks, winning the fight with ease while reapplying poison like mad.

But ok, changes are on the way, Maybe it`s getting a bit better for archers then.

I am always under the impression that in the eyes of some ppl every class is only RvRing whenever they win 1on1 fights against others and only when against temp'd 50s....yes, it might be a bigger challenge but this is not the sense of battle and not the sense of war neither for open world PvP like here.

Here we do have the situation that those, who spend more time, will be the highest RR. Those who bring the most ppl will win. You can bring it down to exactly these two things.

Like it or not, it is like that. The RR6+ Hib groups mean NOTHING, when encountering 20 Albs/Mids..their names do not count, nor their RR...they will just bite the dust. This is war. This is the principle of 'the strongest wins'.

Other classes are meant to CC, others are meant to Heal. They are not in competition - about those classes nobody looses a word. But as soon as you are at least a bit meant to do damage, you are thrown into the pot of the elitist 1on1 comparison.

Even when they increase the archer dmg, I will not change my playstyle. My chosen targets may differ a bit, hence will I find it amusing and satisfying, killing a farming 50ish necro on his way from 578 plat to 579 plat and just let him know, that entering Danger Zone may result in real death (compared to his shade form...).

I often sit beneath grey Albs, yesterday I even saved a young Alb while he was accidently overpulling/standing in the spawn @ Forest Sauvage. When I was done killing these (yellow con) Kaba's and Necro's there I took off my armor and sat in front of a player called Nimue since I wanted to blood gate back anyway (I think he/she dinged on me

)

It is like I want to play the Hunter. Don't try to take this off me or put me in a box, tagged 'LowBob' just because I do not spec Spear/BC and engage Melee for earning someones virtual applause. Just let people play how they want to do it without judging(!)

You stated that
Paìng casters is an assassins job, not jumping on full tanks, winning the fight with ease while reapplying poison like mad
Well, based on this, you put the assassin into a certain role.
What makes you think that the Archer is meant to do 1on1? Ever seen a movie or read a story, where the archer was in front line, engaging/charging like mad? Not me. Second line, assisting fire, or drawing attention/distracting. Or even guerilla tactics and this works brilliantly here on Phoenix

I am happily luring and waiting for my target or adding. This is how I see the Archer. Basically, you stated the same with Assassins. They are engaging only fights they can win - so do I. If, with the current setup and dmg output, the archer can only win by adding, or duoing, or killing undergeared, farming, etc....be it. Lets do this then.

M.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:05 PM by Durgrim

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:20 AM
Archer have the best adding/ganking capabilities in the current metagame, and just because you chose to neglect those strengths, doesn't mean they should be disregarded
But let's hear it, what exactly did you create the archer for? If you cared to elaborate we might find out if just our definition of the word ganking is differing or if there is a different problem

couldn't have put it better. Interested in Inoeth's answer.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:35 PM by inoeth

well if i wanted to gank someone i would have rolled infiltrator/ns.
i was a melee hunter which is specificly not able to gank, thats why i wanted to play one, like i did 10 years on live.
but hunter on live had the tools to kill "gankers" ... that was my sport.
here hunter is nothing more than a max range adder who can sit down if found by assassins. all the tools that made hunters strong were taken away here.
i accept that some ppl like the adder style, there where plenty of them back on live ofc too (camping DC tower near bridge just shooting if someone ran by), but thats not the full potential of the class and im very sad that archers are so gimp here. also adding is no "strengh" its a sign that something is broken with the class if that the only thing you can do with it. mos would help alot, also would camu.

yes there will be "gank squads" that critshot solo stealthers, but at least you can see them and if camu up you just run by and emote them. also you can just go somewhere else since gank squads normally camp the same spots. i find it ridiculous to argument against mos because you actually have to put ra points into it? wtf! you could say that to any other RA. if you dont like it just go to thidranki lol.

i really dont get why you guys fighting so hard for a whole archetype to be gimped as hell. the relevance is that you dont seem to have any clue about how archers have been on live servers and claim ridiculous things how it "should" be.....
there has NEVER been a time archers were so gimped like they are right now on phoenix, even in very classic daoc.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:03 PM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:35 PM
the relevance is that you dont seem to have any clue about how archers have been on live servers

Which is not of any relevance here. We are 2019 and on Phoenix. No experience from the past decade is been taken into account resulting in Staff decisions and this is good. Only what they think of the classes is of importance - how Staff thinks it should be. No whining, not living in the past, no arguments. If they decide on deleting a class from the table, what are you going to do then? Hang yourself? Live in desperate vain? xD

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:09 PM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:35 PM
also adding is no "strengh" its a sign that something is broken with the class if that the only thing you can do with it.

So, healing and cc classes are broken because they cannot win 1on1 and need to be in group to get RP? This is the conclusion of your above written....

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:18 PM by inoeth

its 2019 lets make archers as gimp as they were never before? do you even believe what you say? please join another game where you can screw up thing lol.
btw this is a classic daoc freeshard which wants to bring a classic daoc experiance. if i follow your argument it would also totally be ok to give everyone insta lifetap because who cares about how the game was designed.

what is this strawman argument with healers? have i ever said anything about healers to win 1on1? and btw i think atm healers are much more suited to win a 1on1 than a hunter... at least aug speced healers.

please dont answer me when you only bring stupid claims and nonesense to the table

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:18 PM
its 2019 lets make archers as gimp as they were never before? do you even believe what you say? please join another game where you can screw up thing lol.
btw this is a classic daoc freeshard which wants to bring a classic daoc experiance.

what is this strawman argument with healers? have i ever said anything about healers to win 1on1? and btw i think atm healers are much more suited to win a 1on1 than a hunter... at least aug speced healers.

please dont answer me when you only bring stupid claims and nonesense to the table

And again your tone...as usual Inoeth. You outrage very quickly. Fight the arguments, not the person.

Okay, I will do that for you in detail..only once because it is really mindboggling to even explain that step by step.
You told us:
also adding is no "strengh" its a sign that something is broken with the class if that the only thing you can do with it.
You state here that instead of engaging a fight alone, the class is 'adding' and that this is no 'strength' and a sign that something is broken with this class, correct?

So in your words, when the hunter is forced to add fights because he sucks alone (in your eyes compared to the past), he is broken.
So when a cleric used to smite FG to death back in 2002 and cant do it now and thus he is forced to heal, is it broken now? fictive example
And when a Minstrel used to tame level 200 mobs and have them kill a FG back in 2002 and cant do it now and thus is forced to speed6 groups, is it broken now? fictive example
The Hunter class is not forced to add fights only. A lot of Hunters will happily tell you different. The class is not broken. It is broken in your mind because of your perceived, situational experience from the past, which again, is not of any relevance here.
Do you want me to continue the list or do you understand this now? Should I explain you in German via PM?
So, this aint a strawman argument from my side, it is a legit conclusion I draw from your misplaced statements.
And maybe you return to a polite way of discussing.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:47 PM by qq6

I play a ranger, and what they have done with stealth here is amazing. I almost never get popped first, the range difference between us and assassins is so small it makes it really fun to play. 90% of the time when i am in stealth, i get my attack first on assassins in stealth and win the fight. So, i am really not sure how you are playing it, but i am destroying almost every assassin i meet 1v1. So its just down to your playstyle, but i think you are doing something wrong.

One of the posts was about hunters not being able to do anything vs other assassins, are you sure its not your spec, cos i do meet hunters from time to time, and they hit really really hard in melee, yes its going to be hard to get away vs 2 ns, that can cast, but really if you expect to get away from 2 assassins every time, not a chance.

Overall its a welcome change for me, i thought it would be bad, but i do really enjoy it atm.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:00 PM by inoeth

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:18 PM
its 2019 lets make archers as gimp as they were never before? do you even believe what you say? please join another game where you can screw up thing lol.
btw this is a classic daoc freeshard which wants to bring a classic daoc experiance.

what is this strawman argument with healers? have i ever said anything about healers to win 1on1? and btw i think atm healers are much more suited to win a 1on1 than a hunter... at least aug speced healers.

please dont answer me when you only bring stupid claims and nonesense to the table
And again your tone...as usual Inoeth. You outrage very quickly. Fight the arguments, not the person.

Okay, I will do that for you in detail..only once because it is really mindboggling to even explain that step by step.
You told us:
also adding is no "strengh" its a sign that something is broken with the class if that the only thing you can do with it.
You state here that instead of engaging a fight alone, the class is 'adding' and that this is no 'strength' and a sign that something is broken with this class, correct?

So in your words, when the hunter is forced to add fights because he sucks alone (in your eyes compared to the past), he is broken.
So when a cleric used to smite FG to death back in 2002 and cant do it now and thus he is forced to heal, is it broken now? fictive example
And when a Minstrel used to tame level 200 mobs and have them kill a FG back in 2002 and cant do it now and thus is forced to speed6 groups, is it broken now? fictive example
The Hunter class is not forced to add fights only. A lot of Hunters will happily tell you different. The class is not broken. It is broken in your mind because of your perceived, situational experience from the past, which again, is not of any relevance here.
Do you want me to continue the list or do you understand this now? Should I explain you in German via PM?
So, this aint a strawman argument from my side, it is a legit conclusion I draw from your misplaced statements.
And maybe you return to a polite way of discussing.

this is so stupid i really dont know what to say...

clerics have never been able to smite down FGs nor have minstrels been able to charm lvl 200 mobs.... your ficitve examples are so over the top
what is this, are you kidding me? all i ask for is giving back the abilities archers always had the whole daoc time.... and those abilities where not over the top like your, again, strawman arguments.
why is it not relevant how the classes were ment to play in the past? ahh i know its 2019 right? so fuck it lets change all classes.
what do you think, why are ppl coming to phoenix? imo the want to play dark age of camelot, like they did the last 18 years and guess what, they want to play their classes how they remember it. and now there are ppl like you who did not play daoc for 15 years and claim everything is right when in fact it is not. please, if you know better than me, show me a time in daoc where archers have been gimp like this. or tell me why archers have been op and needed a nerf.
but the only thing you always say is:

its 2019
everything is right
archer archetype is ment to be like this

all of this is just your personal opinion but have nothing to do with the reality of daoc
and i dont get why you fighting so hard for this when in fact you dont care at all about the status of archers. there are many people who actually care about this, if you have read the archers threads.

und nein du brauchst mir nicht auf deutsch schreiben, auch nicht per pm. jeder soll wissen was für einen unsinn du hier schreibst.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:01 PM by inoeth

qq6 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:47 PM
I play a ranger, and what they have done with stealth here is amazing. I almost never get popped first, the range difference between us and assassins is so small it makes it really fun to play. 90% of the time when i am in stealth, i get my attack first on assassins in stealth and win the fight. So, i am really not sure how you are playing it, but i am destroying almost every assassin i meet 1v1. So its just down to your playstyle, but i think you are doing something wrong.

One of the posts was about hunters not being able to do anything vs other assassins, are you sure its not your spec, cos i do meet hunters from time to time, and they hit really really hard in melee, yes its going to be hard to get away vs 2 ns, that can cast, but really if you expect to get away from 2 assassins every time, not a chance.

Overall its a welcome change for me, i thought it would be bad, but i do really enjoy it atm.

you need to mark satire

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:10 PM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
clerics have never been able to smite down FGs nor have minstrels been able to charm lvl 200 mobs....

Okay, I give way for the strongest argument on earth. I need to accept that you just cannot connect.
You are right and I am wrong. Have a splendid evening.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:21 PM by qq6

Ye, when the only thing u can do is say, mark your post satire, it shows where the problem is

... hf out there melee hunter

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:53 PM by Stoertebecker

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:53 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:27 AM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:31 AM
wouldn't this go for ANY class NOT picking a fight? like an Assassin never attacking a tank or warden? Where is the superior challenge here? To me no difference.
Killing farming level 50 necro has the same challenge like PA-ing a caster - would you not agree?

I´m pretty sure that you`re not able to kill a necro 1v1 as an archer if the necro is on the same skill and ra level like you, and not afk.
If killing poorly templated toons that are leveling or farming with mobs on their butts is your path...go on, no prob.
But that isn`t rvr, that is kinda like shooting blue mobs, a very skill based job.

Paìng casters is an assassins job, not jumping on full tanks, winning the fight with ease while reapplying poison like mad.

But ok, changes are on the way, Maybe it`s getting a bit better for archers then.

I am always under the impression that in the eyes of some ppl every class is only RvRing whenever they win 1on1 fights against others and only when against temp'd 50s....yes, it might be a bigger challenge but this is not the sense of battle and not the sense of war neither for open world PvP like here.

Are you the same coward in RL?

Maybe it`s just me, but like it if my opponent has at least a bit of a chance. You don`t die in RL if you die ingame.

Adding ppl that are already in combat with mobs is like killing cliff beatles near Mag Mell with level 50 while wearing a *i`m a hero* shirt.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:10 PM by inoeth

qq6 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:21 PM
Ye, when the only thing u can do is say, mark your post satire, it shows where the problem is ... hf out there melee hunter

its because i dont believe you saying you beat every assassin you meet and on the other hand saying hunter hits very hard.... there is something wrong

Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:25 PM by qq6

Well, am really not here to make you believe, cos, thats just your problem. I am winning my fights, cos i am a melee ranger, if you have an sb, come out, i will let you perf me, and i will put you on the floor. There are maybe 2-3 sbs on mid who win fights vs me more than 50% of the time. Ask some sb's around, ask about them fighting hib melee rangers, top 3, and see what they say.
Done debating, problem is not going to be resolved on the forums, its just in your head.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:29 PM by Tillbeast

Most important part of your statement is ..."I play a melee ranger". Rangers are infinitely better than both hunters and scouts at fighting assassins as dual wield is better than both spear and shield. I also imagine you are high rr (6+) which helps a lot. I use to play a hunter but stopped as class is not really viable with phoenix ruleset which is completely different from the classic ruleset I thought it was. A slow 2 handed spear vs an assassin is pretty much suicide. I will hit (admittedly hit hard) once every 3 or 4 swings and the last thing you want vs an inf or ns is for them to evade as you know whats coming next. You have to purge the initial PA stun and if the assassin has got half a brain he then switches weapons and applies the weaponskill debuff and its game over there. Admittedly when you have the realm ranks behind you to have IP5, Toughness 5 and Augmented Constitution 9 plus the compulsory purge 2(min) and have a full template with 1100 alchemy you can outlast them. Trying to match them with offensive ra's your miss rate and the amount of times an assassin will evade a 2 handed weapon makes the fight impossible.

If I return to my hunter I will try get him to rr6 zerg humping so I will have the necessary realm abilities to have a chance solo.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:57 PM by qq6

Alright i give, spear vs ass is suicide, and yes dw is way better. How is sword on hunter here? has any1 tried? I see you get 7 sec stun after evade, i only get 4 (i play blades). Granted i wasnt always rr6, only 1 week, i went p2 ip3 rest mop, so i wouldnt say i have all those survivability RAs you mention, yes its easier now cos i hit for more, but even at rr4 it was decent vs the 99% of assassins i met.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:03 PM by semadin

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:17 PM
The way to balance it out is to bring back MOS (including the bonus to seeing other Stealthers) as an RA

that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

Why not let Archers be food for Assassins, and boost archers so that dynamic is justified?

Although I do like Archers being Assassin hunters - and especially with the potency of poisons on this server, that might be a prudent balance move in the stealth wars. Buuut, i'm biased.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:22 PM by Tillbeast

qq6 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:57 PM
Alright i give, spear vs ass is suicide, and yes dw is way better. How is sword on hunter here? has any1 tried? I see you get 7 sec stun after evade, i only get 4 (i play blades). Granted i wasnt always rr6, only 1 week, i went p2 ip3 rest mop, so i wouldnt say i have all those survivability RAs you mention, yes its easier now cos i hit for more, but even at rr4 it was decent vs the 99% of assassins i met.

Not tried sword to be honest but again it would prob be a 2 hander as 1h and shield lack the dps and any 2 hander is at a disadvantage vs a class with high evade skills although its always funny to land a big crit in lol. I was being a little sarcastic sorry with those ra choices but I think any archer who prefers melee needs to get ip5 asap.
I have seen you about and have died a few times to you lol and you know your stuff but the average player will struggle vs an assassin with all the natural advantages this ruleset gives them over archers. Rangers are probably the best all rounder of the 3 archer classes although scout will always be best pure sniper 50 bow spec and in my opinion the best archer class for melee is the ranger. Hunters just don't seem to have the outright dps with either bow or melee and our high evade rate with spear hinders melee although anything without evasion abilities (clothies) die very quickly once in melee (I have 45 spear) due to how hard it can hit when a strike lands.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:41 PM by Tillbeast

semadin wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM
that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

Why not let Archers be food for Assassins, and boost archers so that dynamic is justified?

Although I do like Archers being Assassin hunters - and especially with the potency of poisons on this server, that might be a prudent balance move in the stealth wars. Buuut, i'm biased.

Archers at low rr always avoided assassins and were given the option to take RA's that helped them (not garauntee them) to do so. Low RR archers then and now on phoenix don't need to take the RA's that boost dps to kill low rr cloth casters and visible stealthers, there preferred targets of choice. Those targets don't have the pain in the neck RA's that prevent a low rr archer from killing them although they have natural defences against the archer that help them like bladeturn, quick cast and vanish (if unstealthed assassin). High RR casters had lots of tools to beat the archer so were generally avoided. A low RR archer was not a match for any assassin but once an archer gained some RR and could afford the key RA's to go alongside his MoS they had the option of speccing out of bow and into melee and became an assassin hunter. This is not possible on phoenix with the way stealth detection works so archers are confined to killing low rr cloth casters and unstealthed stealthers. Back when MoS was an RA a melee hunter was not garaunteed to beat an assassin but he had as much of a chance as the assassin and quite often it came down to player decisions. We just want our class back and a simple change to how stealth detection works (make assassins and archers equal) and reverting MoS back to how it was and giving us back our missing RA's. There is no real need to boost dps, although improving how bow damage scales between levels 35 and 50 is much needed.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:45 PM by semadin

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:41 PM
semadin wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM
I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

Why not let Archers be food for Assassins, and boost archers so that dynamic is justified?

Although I do like Archers being Assassin hunters - and especially with the potency of poisons on this server, that might be a prudent balance move in the stealth wars. Buuut, i'm biased.

Archers at low rr always avoided assassins and were given the option to take RA's that helped them (not garauntee them) to do so. Low RR archers then and now on phoenix don't need to take the RA's that boost dps to kill low rr cloth casters and visible stealthers, there preferred targets of choice. Those targets don't have the pain in the neck RA's that prevent a low rr archer from killing them although they have natural defences against the archer that help them like bladeturn, quick cast and vanish (if unstealthed assassin). High RR casters had lots of tools to beat the archer so were generally avoided. A low RR archer was not a match for any assassin but once an archer gained some RR and could afford the key RA's to go alongside his MoS they had the option of speccing out of bow and into melee and became an assassin hunter. This is not possible on phoenix with the way stealth detection works so archers are confined to killing low rr cloth casters and unstealthed stealthers. Back when MoS was an RA a melee hunter was not garaunteed to beat an assassin but he had as much of a chance as the assassin and quite often it came down to player decisions. We just want our class back and a simple change to how stealth detection works (make assassins and archers equal) and reverting MoS back to how it was and giving us back our missing RA's. There is no real need to boost dps, although improving how bow damage scales between levels 35 and 50 is much needed.

But now you're in the business of using RA's to accomplish base class balance.

Bandaids on bandaids.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:34 AM by Cadebrennus

semadin wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:03 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:25 AM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:12 PM
that just results in pretty much forcing RA points spending down a specific path

I'm well aware of this and was disappointed with this very thing on live, but at least with the MOS RA you're not food for Assassins.

Why not let Archers be food for Assassins, and boost archers so that dynamic is justified?

Although I do like Archers being Assassin hunters - and especially with the potency of poisons on this server, that might be a prudent balance move in the stealth wars. Buuut, i'm biased.

The problem is that no one is food for Archers. It used to be Casters (they were food for Archers and Assassins) but then there were a bunch of Archer nerfs. This happened because solo botted Scouts were obliterating non-botted players and even small man groups. That's why we now have the following:

/face
Nearsight
Bladeturn
Brittle Guards (not on Phoenix)
Lower Archery damage

Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:53 AM by Durgrim

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:53 PM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:53 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:27 AM
I´m pretty sure that you`re not able to kill a necro 1v1 as an archer if the necro is on the same skill and ra level like you, and not afk.
If killing poorly templated toons that are leveling or farming with mobs on their butts is your path...go on, no prob.
But that isn`t rvr, that is kinda like shooting blue mobs, a very skill based job.

Paìng casters is an assassins job, not jumping on full tanks, winning the fight with ease while reapplying poison like mad.

But ok, changes are on the way, Maybe it`s getting a bit better for archers then.

I am always under the impression that in the eyes of some ppl every class is only RvRing whenever they win 1on1 fights against others and only when against temp'd 50s....yes, it might be a bigger challenge but this is not the sense of battle and not the sense of war neither for open world PvP like here.

Are you the same coward in RL?

Maybe it`s just me, but like it if my opponent has at least a bit of a chance. You don`t die in RL if you die ingame.
Adding ppl that are already in combat with mobs is like killing cliff beatles near Mag Mell with level 50 while wearing a *i`m a hero* shirt.

so what is the key takeaway from your post? Nothing? Okay

Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:53 PM by Thinal

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:22 PM
Not tried sword to be honest but again it would prob be a 2 hander as 1h and shield lack the dps and any 2 hander is at a disadvantage vs a class with high evade skills although its always funny to land a big crit in lol.

It probably won't solve all of your problems, but with current dynamics your slower 2H weapon is an *advantage* over dual-wielded fast weapons, when it comes to reactionary styles.

In original 1.65, Uthgard, and early Phoenix beta, in order to get a reactionary style you had to land it between your reaction and your opponent's next swing. Phoenix nerfed that hard early on, because if your reaction is a stun, you can keep spamming your high-growth reactionary styles for the full stun duration, as you're still between the reaction and your opponent's next attack.

Phoenix is using what I'm told is a later Live mechanic (I haven't played Live since not long after 1.65) where you get a 3-second window to respond. As long as your next attack after your reaction is your reactionary style AND it's within the 3-second window, your style will execute perfectly.

This removed an advantage that fast weapons had over slow. Now, the slow 2H has the advantage, and the best place to be is as close as possible to a 3-second attack delay. Your opponent might hit you 4 times in that interval if he's swinging 2 weapons at cap. He therefore has given YOU 4x as many opportunities to evade / block / parry as you're giving him.

Well hey, his double wield reduces your evade, right? Yes! But not as much. Phoenix lowered the penalty substantially, and instead of reducing your evade by 1/2, it reduced by 1/3.

So doing some math, your base evade rate should be roughly 27%, an assassin's 47%. Your evade gets cut to 18% with his double wield. Assuming you swing every 3 seconds and he swings twice every 1.5 seconds, he has a 47% chance every three seconds to evade, and you have 1-((1-82%)^4) = 54.8% chance to evade at least one of his swings every three seconds.

So with a 2H at roughly 3 second delay, your chance to use an evasion style is *higher* than an assassin with 1.5 second delay. (It will be substantially higher than a ranger's.) In reality, the assassin is swinging slower than speed cap, is not swinging the offhand every combat round (since you aren't facing SBs), and is probably getting (slightly) more evade reactionary opportunities than you are as a result, but you're still allowing him to get evade reactionary style opportunities at a substantially lower pace with a 2H than if you were swinging two weapons.