Scout Root. Why no immunity? - Phoenix Freeshard

First up.. this isn't a QQ. Scout root as a style is a nice idea, but the lack of immunity is weird as hell.

In what way is giving no root immunity for their anytime style at all balanced? Video evidence of the abuse that's possible. I had to just sit and watch the whole bit of nonsense unfold.

https://youtu.be/RPH5M0hCcaM

https://youtu.be/RPH5M0hCcaM

This is basically an anytime style that has the same effect as Ichor. It's bizarre. Actively encourages a really frustrating and boring playstyle for both the scout and their opponent, whom if the opponent is a tank of any flavour is **** out of luck.

*Yes im aware the counter play is rupt and shoot etc, but then a smart scout can just run outta range and shoot you, its manageable but incredibly boring for both sides, and more often than not ends in either the individual running and escaping, or the scout disengaging.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:18 AM by Centenario

Maybe propose a solution to make scout viable.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:29 AM by chois

make the 45 style on timer one use every 5 or 10 min, like an escape tool, and scout was and is fine, just garbage with low rr, of course if all scout spec 50 bow 45 shield it will be like a ranger or a hunter spec 50 bow ,it s not the smart idea at all

Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:14 PM by Sepplord

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:18 AM
Maybe propose a solution to make scout viable.

pointing at a problem is much easier than creating the solution...

that said, it isn't wrong to point at a problem if you identify one, even if you have no idea about the solution

last but not least, did the root style fix the scout? because i have heard that it didn't

Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM by Taniquetil

Centenario wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:18 AM
Maybe propose a solution to make scout viable.

I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

Thu 2 Jul 2020 2:07 PM by Blitze

The archery change has made archers do a little more damage but still not enough damage to kill targets quick enough for them to either get out of range or rupt the archer. I think this is a good thing and increasing archers damage soon reaches a tipping point when they become absurdly powerful (think initial archery buff when hib had relics).

Therefore, what do you do?... add utility things, like the scout root shield style. Good idea?, However, this root makes for an awful playstyle to play against, its so frustrating for one reason, repetition. Please add an immunity timer.

So following those two things, archers need spice not damage, they need fun stuff in their bow line.

Examples
Arrows that:
increase your melee damage for 20s.
A 350 range insta arrow on cooldown.
A bleed arrow.
A confuse arrow.
A amnesia arrow.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 2:19 PM by ularewolf

Blitze wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 2:07 PM
The archery change has made archers do a little more damage but still not enough damage to kill targets quick enough for them to either get out of range or rupt the archer. I think this is a good thing and increasing archers damage soon reaches a tipping point when they become absurdly powerful (think initial archery buff when hib had relics).

Therefore, what do you do?... add utility things, like the scout root shield style. Good idea?, However, this root makes for an awful playstyle to play against, its so frustrating for one reason, repetition. Please add an immunity timer.

So following those two things, archers need spice not damage, they need fun stuff in their bow line.

Examples
Arrows that:
increase your melee damage for 20s.
A 350 range insta arrow on cooldown.
A bleed arrow.
A confuse arrow.
A amnesia arrow.

I like the first two archery ideas. I already play my scout as a hybrid because focusing on just bow is not a good playstyle, you lose too much imo. But this would definitely spice up the hybrid style.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 2:38 PM by Horus

Right now Bow+Shield Spec is >> Bow+PF spec which is the standard for most bow archer builds.

The PF line needs to have some kind of survivability skill in it. I would say a short range insta cast stun or root on a timer.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM by

gruenesschaf

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:45 PM by idget575

How about garrote with crippling poison? Snare style isn’t the problem here.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:04 PM by protege

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

Agreed. 60% Melee snare at 45 shield is more than sufficient, imho.

Thu 2 Jul 2020 9:18 PM by Saroi

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

If I compare to live the shield root is similar to the ranger front style root. It roots the target for a short duration and has an immunity timer.
So could be arguable if the shield root should get one too.

I play a Sin and I have enough tools against scout but I can understand that others are struggling. I think an overall good change would be to change the anytime and make it infront of target only.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:24 AM by gromet12

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

It needs 2-part requirement, no other "melee" has an anytime snare other than Sins, its even worse on a class that already has an anytime 9sec stun coming from the realm that stealth zergs to abuse it even more.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 4:06 AM by protege

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:24 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

It needs 2-part requirement, no other "melee" has an anytime snare other than Sins, its even worse on a class that already has an anytime 9sec stun coming from the realm that stealth zergs to abuse it even more.

Armsman.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 6:09 AM by Razur Ur

shild snare style with 49% snare would absolutely suffice or double the endu cost!

Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:06 AM by Centenario

I can identify a few issues with scout:
- 50% block rate reduction from dual wield (sb/ns/ranger)
- Unfair spec AF buff of Ranger/Hunter (while he has the same armor, so 5 armor level difference (51 for scout and 56 for hunter/ranger))
- Unfair DA buff of Ranger
- Unfair D/Q buff of Ranger/Hunter (50 vs 93 so 43 dex bonus equivalent to around 30 RA points)
- Unfair Str buff of Ranger (for increased weaponskill)
- No special to-hit bonus except when going 29 or 50 slash (str based...)
- Poor thrust line (Puncture+Lunge, usually time only for puncture)
- Hunter granted custom Evade 3
- No special defense bonus except when using detaunt styles as filler with 0 growth rate
- Nothing special gained from Longbow (no heavy weapon bonus, increased range is almost useless, no exclusivity on 5.5 bow)
- Between 50 and 60 starting quickness (mid has 50-75 and hib 60-80)
- Not enough bonus damage granted from going high bow due to not having 5 lines to spec (like ranger)
- No more dodger RA to go high defenses

So I can agree that the shield root style is an issue, for this kiting mechanic, but it brings it a little bit more inside the competition.
I don't know how to improve the scout, its seems impossible with just tweaks, the class would have to change somewhere, and this shield style is a core change so I support it.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:09 AM by Lollie

If you reduce the snare then it'll have to be moved down to 30's for spec, wouldn't be worth the spec points at lvl45 for it.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:45 AM by Saroi

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:06 AM
I can identify a few issues with scout:
- 50% block rate reduction from dual wield (sb/ns/ranger)

The reduction for Block and Evade isn't 50% (1/2), it has been reduced to 1/4 in Beta.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:45 AM by inoeth

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:06 AM
I can identify a few issues with scout:
- 50% block rate reduction from dual wield (sb/ns/ranger)
- Unfair spec AF buff of Ranger/Hunter (while he has the same armor, so 5 armor level difference (51 for scout and 56 for hunter/ranger))
- Unfair DA buff of Ranger
- Unfair D/Q buff of Ranger/Hunter (50 vs 93 so 43 dex bonus equivalent to around 30 RA points)
- Unfair Str buff of Ranger (for increased weaponskill)
- No special to-hit bonus except when going 29 or 50 slash (str based...)
- Poor thrust line (Puncture+Lunge, usually time only for puncture)
- Hunter granted custom Evade 3
- No special defense bonus except when using detaunt styles as filler with 0 growth rate
- Nothing special gained from Longbow (no heavy weapon bonus, increased range is almost useless, no exclusivity on 5.5 bow)
- Between 50 and 60 starting quickness (mid has 50-75 and hib 60-80)
- Not enough bonus damage granted from going high bow due to not having 5 lines to spec (like ranger)
- No more dodger RA to go high defenses

So I can agree that the shield root style is an issue, for this kiting mechanic, but it brings it a little bit more inside the competition.
I don't know how to improve the scout, its seems impossible with just tweaks, the class would have to change somewhere, and this shield style is a core change so I support it.

god so much wrong here:

- its 1/3 reduction, not 1/2
- hunter evade 3 is not custom
- the "unfair" AF-buff is just lol because scout has shield which reduces dmg by alot more than some more AF
- all the bow stuff is similar to alle archers, no penalty for scouts

the scouts problem is the disadvantage in melee dmg, you have to decide slash or thrust and then you will do okish dmg to one realm and poor dmg to the other realm, where you over all deal not so much dmg anyway... legendary weapons would help here!

Fri 3 Jul 2020 9:15 AM by gotwqqd

Scouts damage table should be raised

Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM by dbeattie71

I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:07 PM by Taniquetil

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

But, no one can purge BOTH the root AND the slam? managing these two combined gives them a counter play to purge, but doesnt open it up to abuse as seen in the vid. Think of the poor paladin.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:16 PM by Taniquetil

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM
I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Do you think that the video you watched is all ok? and the Pally just needs to suck it up? I felt bad just watching it personally. Happy to debate why my opinion might be misplaced though. What could the pally do better? was there something missing that couldve made the fight fun and fair for both?

Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:17 PM by Noashakra

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM
I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Did you read? Most people want to trade the snare for something else. Most people agree the scout is sub par and needs a up. But this snare is not the solution. Remove it and buff the melee damage or give self buffs.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:29 PM by dbeattie71

Was the fight ok? It’s really hard to balance classes based on how they 1v1 each other, so if a class doesn’t have range to rupt they’re probably screwed just like a Scout is vs classes that can rupt.

Compared to my 2 rangers, Scout is meh even with the root. If you want to see the effect of nerfing the root, do it and see how many scouts are being played, there aren’t many now.

You can build a better sniper with a ranger and a better melee than some sins. I made my Shar ranger back when there were maybe 4 or 5. It has +15 str, all capped stats and IP2, built for hunting sins. So strong most of the time IP isn’t needed.

Not sure what the fix is for Scout. 😀

Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:32 PM by dbeattie71

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:17 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM
I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Did you read? Most people want to trade the snare for something else. Most people agree the scout is sub par and needs a up. But this snare is not the solution. Remove it and buff the melee damage or give self buffs.

I didn’t read much, I’m just giving my 2 cents from someone that has both Scout and Ranger. Most of the time I use root to gtfo.

Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:40 PM by Noashakra

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:32 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:17 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM
I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Did you read? Most people want to trade the snare for something else. Most people agree the scout is sub par and needs a up. But this snare is not the solution. Remove it and buff the melee damage or give self buffs.

I didn’t read much, I’m just giving my 2 cents from someone that has both Scout and Ranger. Most of the time I use root to gtfo.

This is the problem, it's not helping the scout to kill people

Fri 3 Jul 2020 3:50 PM by gromet12

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 2:16 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 12:00 PM
I wonder if the nerf criers have played a Scout? I have a Scout and a Ranger and if Scout is nerfed there will be even more Rangers.

Do you think that the video you watched is all ok? and the Pally just needs to suck it up? I felt bad just watching it personally. Happy to debate why my opinion might be misplaced though. What could the pally do better? was there something missing that couldve made the fight fun and fair for both?

I'm glad actually......My scout will be 50 shortly, and I think the only 2 styles on my tool bar will be root/slam. The root is already OP in PVE, taking grapes down is no trouble tbh

Fri 3 Jul 2020 4:09 PM by gromet12

Centenario wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Jul 2020 8:06 AM
I can identify a few issues with scout:
- 50% block rate reduction from dual wield (sb/ns/ranger)
- Unfair spec AF buff of Ranger/Hunter (while he has the same armor, so 5 armor level difference (51 for scout and 56 for hunter/ranger))
- Unfair DA buff of Ranger
- Unfair D/Q buff of Ranger/Hunter (50 vs 93 so 43 dex bonus equivalent to around 30 RA points)
- Unfair Str buff of Ranger (for increased weaponskill)
- No special to-hit bonus except when going 29 or 50 slash (str based...)
- Poor thrust line (Puncture+Lunge, usually time only for puncture)
- Hunter granted custom Evade 3
- No special defense bonus except when using detaunt styles as filler with 0 growth rate
- Nothing special gained from Longbow (no heavy weapon bonus, increased range is almost useless, no exclusivity on 5.5 bow)
- Between 50 and 60 starting quickness (mid has 50-75 and hib 60-80)
- Not enough bonus damage granted from going high bow due to not having 5 lines to spec (like ranger)
- No more dodger RA to go high defenses

So I can agree that the shield root style is an issue, for this kiting mechanic, but it brings it a little bit more inside the competition.
I don't know how to improve the scout, its seems impossible with just tweaks, the class would have to change somewhere, and this shield style is a core change so I support it.

**25% is the reduction and 1 in 4 is still better than an AF buff, you think blocking 1 hit in 4 while the ranger/hunter takes all those hits is better vs a sin?
**read above...Seriously (2 defenses vs the other archers having 1)
**DA is crap yes
**Yep, but then again pot buffs are close and hunter does not get the highest since its at 50 which is a lot of spec points for little gain
**So you want a special to hit bonus (which only affects the last check of hit/miss, hit-miss isn't the problem, you blocking 50%+ is an issue, my hit/miss is meh)
**Thrust has good styles, beartooth, 2-part 40 something snare, I spec 29 weapons and hit like blah, cry cry cry....I spec 50 weapons and hit like blah
**True...Hunters didn't get evade3 until sometime in Toa/cata, I think Mythic's response was OOPS, didn't realize that of course hunters where at the bottom for a while due to archery patch making slow weapons better with RF. Pot buffed a scout hits much harder than a hunter with all being equal and the hunter's OP dex/quick buff on the hunter, weapon speed makes all the difference of which you have 5.5.....Also, there are larger issues with certain classes (minstrels for example) as harps didn't exist in this patch point either, don't see you calling that stuff out which affects gameplay more than 5% evade on the hunter
**Defense bonus does nothing for you other than the HIT/MISS check, again a 1hander is going against you with evade3 and high shield and you worry about a +hit
**Nothing special gained from CB, it sucks in fact, does way less dmg (due to weapon speed), and has the lowest range
**Those races with high quick have something wrong with them as well, like low str & low con. You can get a base 60/60/60 which is something the mids cannot
**What 5 lines? (bow,shield,weapon,stealth.....what am I missing here? You want parry added to your class or you want to dual spec slash/thrust? How about add crush since your realm is so special already?
**That is gone for everyone, and those that benefitted the most relied on evade for the only defense and received no compensation, REMEMBER YOU HAVE TWO Defenses while the rest have 1 and you can still get MOB, while the rest are stuck doing aug dex/quick to increase evade, which is cut 50% by DW (shields are not).

Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM by Siouxsie

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:21 PM by gromet12

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM
Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

Melee styles don’t cause immunity, however, they typically don’t root either

Anyways he is not off, that is how the game works except for this one style since it is a root and not a snare. If the target gets a casted snare/root, they then get immunity to snare/roots for a time. If you spam conqueror or any melee style with a snare; they don’t get immunity which is why melee is regulated to peel bots.

Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:38 PM by Noashakra

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 1:24 PM
I think a good scout can already make the single anytime root viable when combined with shield styles (not slam...) and snares. That's why I didnt ask for it to be removed entirely.

Lack of any immunity is a similar issue to animist tanglers early days before the patch.

Unless i'm going mad, and perma CCing someone to run away and shoot them is 'fine'

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

That's why peelers are not happy when you root tanks, because the spell gives them immunity. But you can chain the style without one.

Mon 6 Jul 2020 12:02 PM by

gruenesschaf

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

Again to repeat it, melee snares do not cause root immunity, however, just like the pet stuns that do not cause stun immunity, they are affected by existing immunity.

Tue 7 Jul 2020 10:59 AM by Taniquetil

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.
Again to repeat it, melee snares do not cause root immunity, however, just like the pet stuns that do not cause stun immunity, they are affected by existing immunity.

Not arguing over mechanics. Melee snares and pet stuns, understand and accept that those are chainable and dont give immunity, but the issue is that this is for al intents and purposes a root that doesnt provide immunity. The only difference being it's a root that comes from a melee style and is therefore called a 99% snare (a root by any other name). A snare can be counterplayed, this anytime reusable root cant be.

Options

1. Give it immunity. This doesnt completely butcher the Scout, it gives them 2 methods of putting distance between them and their opponent (only 1 of which can be purged0 rather than UNLIMITED free re-use. The opponent could purge one but then be weak to the other, and therefore have the distance built up again. A scout can then kite and wait out some timers, or use the 2x opportunities to land 700x damage critshots on the opponent to hope that's enough to give them the upper hand.

2. Make it a snare, like other styles, that way a counter play can be to counter snare the scout and then some skill/luck/positioning comes in to it, and that can be done infinitely. The scout has infinite chances to put distance between them, but at a cost if they misplay, or with the potential to be countered.

Tue 7 Jul 2020 1:53 PM by inoeth

even though i think this shield style is really lame, scouts do not have much more in their tool kit.

vs assassins its the only way to at least have a tiny chance
vs tanks its easymode but also would be with some kiting and restealthing
vs casters useless
vs any ranged useless

changing it to a 60% snare will result in it being completely useless vs anyone, especially vs assassins with their also anytime snare.

Tue 7 Jul 2020 7:18 PM by ularewolf

I don't care if the shield style was changed, but don't mention what the nerf should be without following it up with a buff to some other aspect of the Scout. Scouts DO NOT need a NERF, they need something to balance it out. Otherwise just don't even touch Scout.

Wed 8 Jul 2020 1:01 AM by jhaerik

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Jul 2020 12:02 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

Again to repeat it, melee snares do not cause root immunity, however, just like the pet stuns that do not cause stun immunity, they are affected by existing immunity.

So why doesn't anyone else get a 99% melee snare? We don't get charge, we already insta lose to anything with disease and half a brain, melee is already reduced to being a peel bot on the server... I'll call it fair when all melee snares go from 60% to 99%. It's not like many stealth even runs solo...

Wed 8 Jul 2020 2:12 AM by gromet12

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Jul 2020 1:01 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Jul 2020 12:02 PM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Jul 2020 4:05 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Jul 2020 7:07 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Gruneschaf - not true. Conquer hammer style, if you try it on a target that has snare immunity, you get a big pink message saying: "That target cannot have that effect again yet". Conquer IS a melee snare style and yet it cannot be chained. I think you need to check the game's code again.

Again to repeat it, melee snares do not cause root immunity, however, just like the pet stuns that do not cause stun immunity, they are affected by existing immunity.

So why doesn't anyone else get a 99% melee snare? We don't get charge, we already insta lose to anything with disease and half a brain, melee is already reduced to being a peel bot on the server... I'll call it fair when all melee snares go from 60% to 99%. It's not like many stealth even runs solo...

Especially the realm that gets the 99% snare, also has the anytime stun, insta stun, single/aoe mez, abs absorb

The other realms have....

Wed 8 Jul 2020 9:13 AM by Taniquetil

Alright, never mind, that video is clearly balanced and fine and I'm the crazy one. All good. No skin off my back, i dont play a tank, I just find the justification bizarre.

Agree to disagree.

Wed 8 Jul 2020 11:45 PM by Nephamael

A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

The problem is a root style doesn't make scout viable in melee, it just gives him another tool to kite.

My suggestions:

1) give scout selfbuffs = no difference in zerg but stronger 1v1 + 1a)remove root style or make it a root with immunity or reduce the snare value to 60% like every
other snare
and or
2) buff scouts melee weaponskill - here is why: 2h or Dual Wield reduce the enemies defense, 1h does not, so to be able to land some hits scout rly need more melee weaponskill (just like warden needs it) +1a)
and or
3)Give Scouts 2h spec +1a)

Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:18 AM by inoeth

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Jul 2020 11:45 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

The problem is a root style doesn't make scout viable in melee, it just gives him another tool to kite.

My suggestions:

1) give scout selfbuffs = no difference in zerg but stronger 1v1 + 1a)remove root style or make it a root with immunity or reduce the snare value to 60% like every
other snare
and or
2) buff scouts melee weaponskill - here is why: 2h or Dual Wield reduce the enemies defense, 1h does not, so to be able to land some hits scout rly need more melee weaponskill (just like warden needs it) +1a)
and or
3)Give Scouts 2h spec +1a)

yes and give pet!

lol

really?

i mean seriously scouts below rr8 are easy rp for everyone, something needs to be done, but changing the whole class would be far too much.
imo the main reason why scouts suck is that thrust is a bad dmg type for scouts but slash does not offer any good styles... hopefully the upcoming style change will help there.... or simply introduce legendary weapons

Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:02 AM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:18 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Jul 2020 11:45 PM
A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.

Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease.

The problem is a root style doesn't make scout viable in melee, it just gives him another tool to kite.

My suggestions:

1) give scout selfbuffs = no difference in zerg but stronger 1v1 + 1a)remove root style or make it a root with immunity or reduce the snare value to 60% like every
other snare
and or
2) buff scouts melee weaponskill - here is why: 2h or Dual Wield reduce the enemies defense, 1h does not, so to be able to land some hits scout rly need more melee weaponskill (just like warden needs it) +1a)
and or
3)Give Scouts 2h spec +1a)

yes and give pet!

lol

really?

i mean seriously scouts below rr8 are easy rp for everyone, something needs to be done, but changing the whole class would be far too much.
imo the main reason why scouts suck is that thrust is a bad dmg type for scouts but slash does not offer any good styles... hopefully the upcoming style change will help there.... or simply introduce legendary weapons

Amethyst is a good anytime for damage and the follow-up at 50 is excellent for damage, but that's pretty much all that Slash has going for it. Side Slicer (side snare) is good, but not great.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:37 AM by jhaerik

I mean this isn't a hard one to figure out.... make it a proc effect that casts an actual root. That way they can't keep doing it over and over and over...

Thu 9 Jul 2020 1:10 PM by inoeth

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 7:37 AM
I mean this isn't a hard one to figure out.... make it a proc effect that casts an actual root. That way they can't keep doing it over and over and over...

that could actually be an option, a specable proc like reaver lt proc, and maybe tie it to high bow spec and maybe also increase the duration slightly so the scout can run out of cast range.

still scouts would be bound to bow builds, which is sad

Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:22 PM by Parole

Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:30 PM by Kwall0311

Parole wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:22 PM
Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

No, you only see these posts pop up every few days when some rr4 zerk chases a rr10 scout in open field and gets frustrated, or when someone clips a video of the perfect 1v1 non add scenario where kiting for 2+ minutes is possible.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:57 PM by Nephamael

Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

That is why you would have to actually use stun and snare well timed together to kite, or finish in melee, where you can only survive with higher weaponskill+selfbuffs.

Balancing scout vs assassin seems to me almost impossible tho, basically because scouts HPpool is small and viper dots destroy him, root or not. So you kinda have to accept assassins as a counter to the scout class...

But 60% snare would give u a great tool to kite around tanks, that is not broken and can be counterplayed against (tank applying snares too).

If the style went to 60% snare the enducost would have to be dramatically reduced btw.

Thu 9 Jul 2020 6:27 PM by inoeth

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 5:57 PM
Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

That is why you would have to actually use stun and snare well timed together to kite, or finish in melee, where you can only survive with higher weaponskill+selfbuffs.

Balancing scout vs assassin seems to me almost impossible tho, basically because scouts HPpool is small and viper dots destroy him, root or not. So you kinda have to accept assassins as a counter to the scout class...

But 60% snare would give u a great tool to kite around tanks, that is not broken and can be counterplayed against (tank applying snares too).

If the style went to 60% snare the enducost would have to be dramatically reduced btw.

or hunter or ranger or thane or champ or you name it.....

scouts used to be very hard opponents on live servers when melee speced, somehow they suck here. and i think it is because of no legendary weapons!

Mon 13 Jul 2020 5:05 AM by jhaerik

Parole wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:22 PM
Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

The problem is not everyone plays an assassin.

I'm seeing more and more scouts show up in small man visi groups lately. Not exactly fun as a BM/Hero/Savage/Zerker/Warrior to be endlessly root peeled into uselessness.
Root spam should not be a thing. It's ToA levels of bad game design.

Mon 13 Jul 2020 5:10 AM by gotwqqd

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Mon 13 Jul 2020 5:05 AM
Parole wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Jul 2020 2:22 PM
Problem with making the scout snare 60% is now sins can just garrote, cripple disease and laugh until scout dies. If the scout has no ability to get away and doesn't have the tools to fight in melee then it's not a fix.

A good sin can usually still kill a kiting scout by just using this tactic already. Are there really that many scout out there destroying everybody? How about we nerf Champs?

The problem is not everyone plays an assassin.

I'm seeing more and more scouts show up in small man visi groups lately. Not exactly fun as a BM/Hero/Savage/Zerker/Warrior to be endlessly root peeled into uselessness.
Root spam should not be a thing. It's ToA levels of bad game design.

I’d like to see the skill removed and some things added in scout line archery only

Increase range by 75units @46 bow
Skill Long Bow Master(get +.2 DPS from bow)@48 bow
Increase range 200 units @50 bow