missing a guiding thread

Started 10 Nov 2018
by Hibble
in Ask the Team
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64
I think that with the implementation of the Live-RA-System you are far away from "Using Patch 1.65 as a basis".
It doesn't matter to to me (because I like this patch), but I would like to know where this ends in order to plan my start.
Do you plan line changes because of the RA switch?
I understand that you try to built up a balanced server where casuals get a chance to be competitve - but if you ask 3 different people about balancing, you will get 3 answers. Casuals with less time will not be amused about getting dramatic changes to their class after release - especialy if they aren't comunicated before - because they don't have the time to switch the char.
And I'm afraid of people reading the welcome page beeing disappointed when they start playing after release without having taken part in Beta.
Would it be possible to update the OoL http://playphoenix.wiki/ and tell the reader of the welcome side your view of "balanced Server" with old frontiers maps + SI in simple words. I don't think that a new potential player or casuals should have to read all threads in all boards in order to understand the difference between welcome side/wiki and the patch ig.
Anyway - many thx for your fantastic work
Sat 10 Nov 2018 6:45 PM by Sepplord
Yes, i agree...the wiki needs updating.
The parts about XP-Items seem also wrong (according to some forum threads)


but i guess they have a lot todo, and documentation isnt the highest priority, which i agree on
Sun 11 Nov 2018 3:33 PM by Hibble
Sepplord wrote:
Sat 10 Nov 2018 6:45 PM
but i guess they have a lot todo, and documentation isnt the highest priority, which i agree on
sry, I think you missunderstood me - I requested to see the main purpose and a line which leads to it.
The official main purpose - shown on the welcome side - is 1.65.
Right now we have modified live RA+1.65 skill lines +of+si+custom input
My question is: Is there a target which could be put in phrases or is the way the target?
A Beta is used to test - to do so, you have to know against what.
You need a definition against what you test.
Yesterday you think live RA - then today it's live RA with custom changes - what will be tomorrow - rollback 1.65 or ML?
My problem is that I can't see this definition right now.
Balance has too many individual definitions so that you can't take that target without a leading frame and definition.
From my point of view now the character skills can change day by day after release and you can't plan anything because of the missing frame.
Sun 11 Nov 2018 10:57 PM by Sepplord
afaik they said class/skill changes are mostly done and they are working on RA balance...

during that they had an internal vote oldRAs and new RAs, and new RAs won.

MLs are not planned



But i guess if something is found to be too strong you could always get a skill or class change, i don't think they will put anything in stone. And i agree, putting stuff in stone only makes people even more upset when you "have" to change something that came up unexpectedly (or maybe even was known but not an issue since it wasn't overly used/exploited/etc....)




all is completely hearsay and from forum posts, i have no affiliation or personal contact with any of the staff
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:15 AM by gruenesschaf
The wiki needs some updates that's true, however the very first post that announced the project contains this phrasing: Using Patch 1.65 as a basis for our development, we have already implemented some changes and a big chunk of QoL’s and we are discussing many more internally.

We have no plans to completely change classes or lines, that's still the 1.65 basis, we also have no plans to implement master levels, artifacts or anything of that note. While many may consider NNF RAs to be a big departure of 1.65 almost everyone recognizes that many RAs in 1.65 were just garbage and some were just over the top, sure we could have tried just rebalancing those but just as a couple examples, how do you rebalance the garbage RA styles in a way that they are worth the points while not oneshotting? What should you do with Shadow Run? It's the same for many many abilities, some are by design just completely useless and once you're done with this, how much "1.65 of ras" is actually still left?. Then you have the "issue" of not having the portal ceremony and hence faster time to action, are 30 minute cooldowns still appropriate, are those long cooldowns factored into the balance of those abilities. If people agree that long cooldowns should mean the abilities have huge impact should there even be long cooldowns? And so the decision was made to adopt NNF RAs, they obviously aren't perfect and would also require some changes but the required changes there are basically just numbers and backfilling some passives while it solves a whole load of other issues and opens up a lot more viable playstyles.

From the start of the alpha we said we are focusing on making it a playable thing with most class and balancing changes happening in the i50. We are now in the i50 and so some class changes happened / are happening (hybrid stuff) and balancing changes are happening / happened (RAs, heals).

What people were testing since the alpha is just the normal gameplay. New RAs, Old RAs, even the character skills don't matter much in any of that and is just a tiny fraction of the work required / stuff that has / had to be tested. To give a sense of perspective, NNF RA implementation started on the 2nd and was mostly done by the 4th, sure there were / are still some bugs but that's how little stuff like that matters compared to all the things that had to be redone, tested and fixed that have nothing to do with skills or ras but are still part of daoc / a daoc server.

We will ofc try to limit the impact of changes that happen once the server is live, I wouldn't expect anything "exciting" when it comes to class changes for a rather long time after it goes live as people want and need a sense of stability but there also should not necessarily be a complete stagnation. Metas shift and such shifts can make problems visible that never occurred throughout the beta and might or might not require some changes, however I'd expect those changes be number related and not adding or removing abilities, that's what the i50 phase is for.
Mon 12 Nov 2018 2:48 PM by Thinal
Thank you! I don't have the perspective of playing through Live's various changes over the years, so I'm not going to get into a debate on whether the NNF RAs were the right target to go towards, but the OF RAs were definitely something to move away from. It also certainly makes sense to move to an existing completed system rather than spending years trying to cook up one of your own. You've made custom changes and are open to further tweaks, so this is definitely the right move.
Tue 13 Nov 2018 5:50 PM by Hibble
Many thx for your detailed answer gruenesschaf
It's the right direction for me even thought I'm a worrying with the point of time and the resulting risks ops:
I hope to be wrong with worrying
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