det9+aom is stacking, could u guys change that?

i just read that thread and we tested it...thats just ridiculous.

an 1.20min single mezz of a sorc is gettin denied to like 8seconds. its a huge love for tanks in general.

50% det? 25% stoicism, 15% aom = 90% mez/stun/root duration
+resists in general

can u guys seperate these RA´s in terms of CC durations?

i know there are many ways to control tanks (root/mezz/slam/snare/desease) but if you think about the setups who can abuse kind of that, thats not that easy.

Hibsetups with 5 Nats+ 3Tanks are nuts anyways, but thats even more a huge love for them.

Hope u guys really think about some changes u made now and in the i50 phase.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:52 PM by

gruenesschaf

80 seconds cc, assuming 50% resist and det 9 and stoicism:

80 * 0.25 (det + stoicism) = 20
20 * 0.5 (resists) = 10

with aom having an impact:
10 * 0.9 = 9

Tue 28 Aug 2018 4:13 PM by Dis

I dont understand your math.

but u can test it with people online. what ur telling me is that they should stand in a single mezz for 40 sec or how should i understand your post @gruenesschaf?

mezz instantly fading when they get it. then there must be something really wrong.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 4:47 PM by

gruenesschaf

How is it hard to understand?

80 second start time, substract det + stoicism (aka det 9 here + stoicisim or det 5 in 1.65, in both cases 75%): 80 * 0.25 = 20 seconds remaining.
Substract what gets reduced by resist, assuming 50% (26% from items, 24% from buffs): 20 * 0.5 = 10 seconds remaining
If aom is affecting it, and you have aom 5/9 here that's 10% -> 10 * 0.9 = 9 seconds remaining.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 5:08 PM by Dis

yeah and for my understanding 80- 39 = 41sec remaining.
whats the math behind, if a bm get singlemezzed, instantly fading the mezz? he never ever stands for that duration.

thats all i wanna know, how can that be?

Tue 28 Aug 2018 5:11 PM by

Uthred

What Schaf tries to say:

Det9 + Stoicism = 10 sec mezz

Det9 + Stoicism + AOM = 9 sec mezz

I dont know if 34 Ra-points are worth being one second less mezzed.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 5:27 PM by Dis

ok i get it. thx uth, sorry grunesschaf, i stand on my brain^^

Tue 28 Aug 2018 5:42 PM by

Uthred

To be honest, when I saw his first post, I instantly PMed him and asked if he could explain his math to me.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 6:45 PM by Dis

anyways, back to the topic.

giving tanks a RA to reduce both cc+dmg with 1ra shouldnt be possible.

i want to point out some specific things here:
casters cant spec dmg reduce from tanks/cc reduce with 1 RA.
give tanks the opportunity to reduce cast dmg combined with better healing mechanics, faster heals with less mana + shorter instant heals durations
aom will reduce cast dmg + cc duration lowered means = more dmg overall because of lower downtimes of cc´s on tanks.
1 tank kills a caster pretty fast tbh, but u need at least 2 or 3 caster to kill a tank (if you nuke with debuff)

overall this is a pretty huge buff in genenal for tanks...

please just think about that and give casters the opportunity to spec pd to counter that in some way.

i dont know if you guys play 8vs8 or who you gonna talk about the situation and balance in general but that should be discussed.
there are more points of balancing and i think you guys are doing a great job so far, but please sometimes its not just paper daoc, reality seams a bit different.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 7:53 PM by Mesmer

The current behavior is accurate to the 1.65 baseline. It's conceivable that a caster attacks another caster, they also benefit from both AOM bonuses. Casters take damage and are healed; they benefit from heal changes.

If you have an issue with 5 naturalist setups, I'd suggest offering more targeted suggestions.

Also — there's a few groups running (or have ran) the 5 naturalist setup. My guess is that your post is directed at one of them. One of the regular tanks in that group has AOM 0, unsure about the others.

Tue 28 Aug 2018 8:03 PM by Dis

nothing to do with the 5 nat setups, its just nuts in general and now tell me which caster on this planet is taking aom xD ?
dude please...do you ever have a bm on you as caster? u cant even get away from him.
u need 3 caster free to kill a tank in exchange of 1 tank is killing your caster easy.

stop the black and white talk

Tue 28 Aug 2018 10:54 PM by Niix

Dis wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 8:03 PM
nothing to do with the 5 nat setups, its just nuts in general and now tell me which caster on this planet is taking aom xD ?
dude please...do you ever have a bm on you as caster? u cant even get away from him.
u need 3 caster free to kill a tank in exchange of 1 tank is killing your caster easy.

stop the black and white talk

Not sure BM's getting AoM CC reduction is the core of the problem with BM's...

Wed 29 Aug 2018 12:52 AM by Jokerall

Bm's problem is that they are currently the highest dmg dealer among the light tanks and that is wrong since they have the highest utility. Should be Zerker/Bm/Merc (merc being the 3rd since they are the tankiest) but right now its Bm/Zerker/Merc. A Zerker having almost 0 utility should be the highest dmg dealer and a bm should never outdamage a zerker. Devs need to start looking into bm.

And yes, 1.20 mezzes shouldnt be reduced to 9 seconds, thats just Dark Age of Tankalot....

Wed 29 Aug 2018 7:49 AM by Kampfar

10 sec is ok, but 9 Not !

Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:21 AM by Dis

sometimes even 2 sec are the differnt between a dead enemy and not...but its the overall thing about that.

bm´s have the highest utility and the most dmg of the light tanks, agree and the backsnare peel has wrong growth i think, u cant get away form him and the dmg is absurd. it should be a backpeel but not the highest util style+dmgstyle. am i wrong?

and i agree with your points @Jokerall

devs should look at that issue and start balancing things like that.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 10:33 AM by Ceen

Thats the problem with custom balancing, once you started people want everything changed which wiped them once.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 12:37 PM by jelzinga_EU

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:52 PM
80 seconds cc, assuming 50% resist and det 9 and stoicism:

80 * 0.25 (det + stoicism) = 20
20 * 0.5 (resists) = 10

with aom having an impact:
10 * 0.9 = 9

The problem with this mechanic is that an unlucky person (Purge down, no Det+Stoicism, only 34% magic-resists) can sit in a mezz for 50+ seconds where others sit for 9 seconds.

The real problem isn't AoM stacking, the real problem is Det+Stoicism is too strong. On a class with "secondary mezz" (e.g. Air Theurgist, Skald, Eldritch etc etc) those mezzes will last for 4~ seconds, making them not even worth casting.

Surely that is ridicilous ?

Wed 29 Aug 2018 2:09 PM by Kampfar

This is daoc

Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:32 PM by Niix

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 12:37 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:52 PM
80 seconds cc, assuming 50% resist and det 9 and stoicism:

80 * 0.25 (det + stoicism) = 20
20 * 0.5 (resists) = 10

with aom having an impact:
10 * 0.9 = 9

The problem with this mechanic is that an unlucky person (Purge down, no Det+Stoicism, only 34% magic-resists) can sit in a mezz for 50+ seconds where others sit for 9 seconds.

The real problem isn't AoM stacking, the real problem is Det+Stoicism is too strong. On a class with "secondary mezz" (e.g. Air Theurgist, Skald, Eldritch etc etc) those mezzes will last for 4~ seconds, making them not even worth casting.

Surely that is ridicilous ?

Non-tanks rely on positioning and team members to demezz them... they deserve that because they don't need to be in melee range to DO ANYTHING, all you people complaining don't understand all you need to do is smack a tank once with a snare and run away and they're 100% useless. You can add up all the useless snare duration and mezz time of tank and I guarantee it is more time not doing anything that any caster/support/ranged class that gets mezzed once or twice a fight.

AoM stacking with mezz does more for non tanks than tanks based on the posted math, it's quite simple... stop complaining

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:35 PM by jelzinga_EU

Niix wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:32 PM
Non-tanks rely on positioning and team members to demezz them... they deserve that because they don't need to be in melee range to DO ANYTHING, all you people complaining don't understand all you need to do is smack a tank once with a snare and run away and they're 100% useless. You can add up all the useless snare duration and mezz time of tank and I guarantee it is more time not doing anything that any caster/support/ranged class that gets mezzed once or twice a fight.

AoM stacking with mezz does more for non tanks than tanks based on the posted math, it's quite simple... stop complaining

That is all quite irrelevant to the discussion. The entire point I tried to make is that Determ+Stoic is not only way too strong from the caster his/her PoV, it is therefore also a complete must-have for anyone who will be engaged in a mDPS/peel-roll. don't have it? You're essentially useless.

There are lots of advantages and disadvantages to the different roles (caster vs melee) - the problem is that these abilities not only make certain secondary CC-spells completely useless, it also makes Determ+Stoicism a must-have for any melee. If it was not having it and ur mezzed for 20 seconds and with it ur down to 10 seconds it would already be quite strong (50% reduction in CC). As it is now, it is completely over the top and therefore also a must-have.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:37 PM by Niix

It would be a must have regardless of the CC reduction... 80 reduced to 10 or 20 or 25.... as a tank/melee you would max that no matter what.

Are you trying to say that the amount of CC reduction Tanks get with stoi+det is over powered and too much? Cuz my post above was a direct response to why that is not the case.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 5:17 PM by jelzinga_EU

Niix wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:37 PM
It would be a must have regardless of the CC reduction... 80 reduced to 10 or 20 or 25.... as a tank/melee you would max that no matter what.

Are you trying to say that the amount of CC reduction Tanks get with stoi+det is over powered and too much? Cuz my post above was a direct response to why that is not the case.

My point was a bit more subtle, but perhaps not very clear: I'm saying that a mezz without any of those RA's is (way) too long - but adding Determ/Stoicism makes it too short. The baseline for mezz is too long but all the mezz-reduction stuff makes it too short. This causes 2 problems:

a) You truly need Stoicism+Determination in order to be viable
b) Because of a) a secondary mezz is completely useless; because it lasts about 4 seconds

This is not about "damn tanks are OP with Determ+Stoicism, nerf please" - this is about how CC is implemented on DAOC and how a set of passives makes anything but a top mezz useless while the top mezz is, stricly speaking, too long.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 7:18 PM by Niix

Changing how CC works will open a rats nest of complaints I think.... I could get behind a static reduction in all CC duration by 20-25% but anymore and its too much.

I think the best part of this game is trying to manage CC and out maneuver your opponents.