Can we fix paladins to make them viable for RvR groups?

Day after day I watch group after group run by running longwind and tireless and endurance potions and either a shield merc or occasionally an armsmen. Despite the zerg there are paladins by the handfuls standing around at pks and bks. Albion is being further narrowed down into about 5 classes that can RvR (Cleric, Sorc, Minstrel, Cabalist, Armsman or merc, occasionally a wizard).

Albion tank groups are pretty shit. The utility gap is still quite wide, as warned about pre live. 2 RA points and a potion render paladins obsolete (yes, yes, I know, you gave them determination but that's useless without further help, as is the damage table move an the extra spec points, it's all useless). Utility is the concern.

Paladins need more utility to fix them in general, and theurgists need better mezz to fix albion tank groups in general (that way don't have to waste a spot on a sorc).

Until some needed changes are made, I don't see alb being much of a factor until everyone has a caster/cleric main.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 6:46 PM by chryso

Clearly, it can not be done. I understand that you love your paladin. But make something else for rvr.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:03 PM by daocgod

Can we fix mercenaries to make them viable for RVR groups?

Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:13 PM by Ashenspire

No one groups friars, so Paladins resist chants that cover what clerics can't are amazing.

Any alb group with a melee train wants a paladin, as end 3, sprinting, and styling isn't enough. They will run out of endurance quickly and become useless.

Albion has room for 3 melee in every group. One should be a paladin, and the other two any other fighter.

I honestly think that Albion, even though they have the least "useful" classes, has one of the best group makeups in the game with cleric cleric minstrel sorc theurg paladin mercenary reaver/armsman. Reavers can replace armsmen now with Det9. Their DPS on a train is monstrous. They also have a ranged attack to pop bubble (at least they did on live).

Fri 1 Feb 2019 8:58 PM by Salviati

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:13 PM
No one groups friars, so Paladins resist chants that cover what clerics can't are amazing.

Any alb group with a melee train wants a paladin, as end 3, sprinting, and styling isn't enough. They will run out of endurance quickly and become useless.

Albion has room for 3 melee in every group. One should be a paladin, and the other two any other fighter.

I honestly think that Albion, even though they have the least "useful" classes, has one of the best group makeups in the game with cleric cleric minstrel sorc theurg paladin mercenary reaver/armsman. Reavers can replace armsmen now with Det9. Their DPS on a train is monstrous. They also have a ranged attack to pop bubble (at least they did on live).

Absolutely untrue. And if you haven't noticed, melee groups aren't even being run. There's plenty of data to back this up. Their DPS train is not monstrous. Now mids running 3-4 savage setups is monstrous. [Sprint -> Stick -> rub face and delete character -> collect rps] x 8. That's monstrous. As simplified and dumbed down as it gets.

8 really good players with great communication and familiarity with each other may be able to be competitive with albion melee groups when fighting inferior skill level players.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:04 PM by Salviati

daocgod wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:03 PM
Can we fix mercenaries to make them viable for RVR groups?

Mercenaries are likely fine, they just suffer from a greater issue of albion melee setups being inferior due to the missing man syndrom/utility disparity of 8 man compositions.

As I proposed in another thread, a great indirect fix to the Albion melee group issue would be to buff theurgist mezz range and duration to be comparable to sorcs. That way sorcs can be run in caster groups and theurgists in melee groups. Sorcs are inefficient for melee groups and an improved theurgist would be similar to caster setups. The problem with alb is having to take 5 classes to equal 3 or 4 in utility of others.

Alb caster groups are still good and... that's all you see.

Paladins are not fine. The state of albion melee group is not fine. And albion tank groups were further weakened by giving everyone else SoS so albion had its toys trivialized, unfortunately they came via RAs. Meanwhile hibs keep their baseline stuns and other antics an mids still get their aoe stun and celerity. Outside of caster groups, alb comps here are weaker than any patch level I can recall playing Albion. The changes they made to the paladins did literally nothing to address these issues, and then they declared paladins to be "in a good place."

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by slunky45

I'd guess the staffs decision was to lightly starve groups of endo unless they group a bard/sham/pally...

/shrug

Seems like designing in problems and then forcing the solution on you. . .bleh, it's that kind of stuff that makes a RPG lame...when you see the trail the designers want you to go down.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:57 PM by Salviati

slunky45 wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 10:22 PM
I'd guess the staffs decision was to lightly starve groups of endo unless they group a bard/sham/pally...

/shrug

Seems like designing in problems and then forcing the solution on you. . .bleh, it's that kind of stuff that makes a RPG lame...when you see the trail the designers want you to go down.

I can accept that and work with it. I like the trinity and defined roles. I have no problem forcing a bard/shaman/pally into groups, just like healers. But again, like in just about everything else, the only realm this hurts is Albion. Shamans and Bards vastly improve the groups in other ways. Paladins are otherwise detrimental, further handicapping Alb groups.

It makes no sense to be like this. This server obviously intended to address some problems of the patch level which never made sense in the first place, and modernize it a bit and remove a lot of the tedium. But in the process, it made one realm, the realm that was already worse off, more worse off. Albion is undeniably worse in this vision than it would have been in a raw 1.65 state, at least in an 8v8 competitive state. Giving SoS away may be one of the largest factors, too. But there is always the utility gap.

Sat 2 Feb 2019 2:42 PM by daocgod

I agree, give Paladins Stoicism.

Sun 3 Feb 2019 6:58 PM by Salviati

daocgod wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
I agree, give Paladins Stoicism.

This is painting a mountain with a paintball.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:17 AM by Sei

Albion tank grp are more than fine 8v8 wise, the main reasons you don t see many runing are :
- very demanding to play, require alot of coordination about rupt/ control
- the zerg meta that encourage caster grp, and alb tank grp are not designed to facetank like 5supp hib or 3healer mid, cause the optimal tank grp on alb is running only 2sup.

Getting back to OP, armsman is easier to play (anytime snare, no chant management) and you dont give a penny about endu chat in caster grp, yes your armsman will be ooe but still a better option than pala here.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:22 AM by Ceen

Sei wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Feb 2019 9:17 AM
Albion tank grp are more than fine 8v8 wise, the main reasons you don t see many runing are :
- very demanding to play, require alot of coordination about rupt/ control
- the zerg meta that encourage caster grp, and alb tank grp are not designed to facetank like 5supp hib or 3healer mid, cause the optimal tank grp on alb is running only 2sup.

Getting back to OP, armsman is easier to play (anytime snare, no chant management) and you dont give a penny about endu chat in caster grp, yes your armsman will be ooe but still a better option than pala here.

Well people should change their grp setup.
I see all those caster pugs leaving atk and wiping within seconds vs any tank grp since caster grp is not pug friendly.
If they would run melee grp as a pug it would be much easier. But the insta wipes are fun to watch though ^^

Mon 4 Feb 2019 3:59 PM by Salviati

Sei wrote: Albion tank grp are more than fine 8v8 wise, the main reasons you don t see many runing are :
- very demanding to play, require alot of coordination about rupt/ control
- the zerg meta that encourage caster grp, and alb tank grp are not designed to facetank like 5supp hib or 3healer mid, cause the optimal tank grp on alb is running only 2sup.

Getting back to OP, armsman is easier to play (anytime snare, no chant management) and you dont give a penny about endu chat in caster grp, yes your armsman will be ooe but still a better option than pala here.

So albion tank groups are fine but not really because they're not designed to take on standard mid or hib groups because of the aforementioned missing man/utility gap? Strong argument. Did you even read what I wrote? You just say "they're fine" then list some of the reasons I already have for why they're not.

Mon 4 Feb 2019 5:28 PM by Ashenspire

This isn't just an Albion problem.

Caster groups are stronger at low realm ranks.

Melee groups are stronger at high realm ranks.

I see wizards and cabalists all over in alb groups. That was practically unheard of on live servers.

Once Albion starts getting some higher rr groups, their melee trains are going to be devastating.

Merc/Pal/Reaver train decimates everything they touch.

Wed 6 Feb 2019 4:45 PM by Ardri

Paladins are very viable now. But like any other semi-hybrid, especially one with chants, it takes a good player to really make it shine. That coupled the fact that they only fit in very specific alb setups makes it hard to run. Plus Alb leans caster group because their CC class, sorc, is a caster.

Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:35 PM by secrain

Every 8 man I ever ran with had a Paladin and they were good at their jobs and this was without all the custom changes on Phoenix. Even our caster extend group ran a Paladin. It's all about who you run with... that's all it boils down to.

Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:16 PM by xunxhyne

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 7:13 PM
No one groups friars, so Paladins resist chants that cover what clerics can't are amazing.

Any alb group with a melee train wants a paladin, as end 3, sprinting, and styling isn't enough. They will run out of endurance quickly and become useless.

Albion has room for 3 melee in every group. One should be a paladin, and the other two any other fighter.

I honestly think that Albion, even though they have the least "useful" classes, has one of the best group makeups in the game with cleric cleric minstrel sorc theurg paladin mercenary reaver/armsman. Reavers can replace armsmen now with Det9. Their DPS on a train is monstrous. They also have a ranged attack to pop bubble (at least they did on live).

Why do people not group friars? I love the friar and was hoping too raise one up to rvr with...

Mon 11 Feb 2019 9:22 PM by Ashenspire

Because they're a mix of a cleric and a tank that doesn't heal as well as a cleric or deal as much damage as a tank. Albion rvr groups are very tight with what classes they can bring. Friar doesn't make the cut.