Buffshears - Why yes? Why not?

As per the title,
I've been really curious about the staff choice of not adding the buffshears among the current tweaks, especially because lots of other stuffs.. lets say.. are more bold changes than shears.
In my opinion, buffshear gives more tactical importance to buff classes and let those players better express their skill level during the fights (And they do need some love on this part, imho..).
Especially since buff classes are often tied to heal bots (cleric, druids) or mindless spamming of the same spell all fight (shaman).
With shears instead, they would have more tools to put into play to finally vary a little their gameplay.

Pros:

More stuff = less repetitivity = more fun
A deeper way to express your skill
An interesting mechanic that extend in combat buffing useful not just upon rez
More interruption tools (longer range, faster cast, less mana waste)

Cons:

Requires more skill vs higher groups since it requires more cooperation during the fights (assisting / rebuffing)
Requires more decision making since you will have to use more than 4~ in combat abilities

In my opinion almost all of the cons are kinda good things since i'm a competitive player, but I understand that might worry people who aren't.
Honestly this shard is trying to create a more fast paced daoc, therefore I see shears fitting perfectly for that vision.

What do you say?

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM by jsx

Pros: Only thing shears do is make the cleric an enjoyable class. Druid and shaman already have a fun kit with out shears.

Cons:
Forces annoying rebuffs.
Forces extra inventory spaces dedicated to rebuff pots
Creates a bigger Gap between the experienced 8v8 players vs the casual (eventually leads to less groups.)

I'm impartial though. I'm fine if their in, fine if their out. It really benefits alb extend more than any other group.

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM by Enrighteous

I personally don't mind shears, they introduce a reasonable mechanic for quicker more dynamic 8v8 fights and can also help small groups and shouldn't affect solo'ers at all considering they are not buffed. Seems to be a win win and rewards the more organized groups.

Another alternative is you could also turn shears into a stat de-buff with a set duration, after duration has expired the user would still retain his/her buffs. This could counteract the fact that their is not uninterruptible buffs.

Buff shears with a small range seems ideal to me, sort of a risk vs reward on your positioning as your groups "healer." Either way i'm cool with either or honestly.

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:37 PM by Caemma

jsx wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM
[..]
Forces extra inventory spaces dedicated to rebuff pots
[..]

Buff shears doesn't remove timed buffs, but only concentration buffs (think of it as a way to "break" the enemy buffer connection with the buffed target).
Therefore, potions, selfbuffs, pet buffs, wouldn't be affected by such mechanic (for example, thanes, champions str/con or friar dex/q self buff can't be sheared).

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:43 PM by Caemma

jsx wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM
[..]
Forces annoying rebuffs.
Creates a bigger Gap between the experienced 8v8 players vs the casual (eventually leads to less groups.)
[..]

Well, annoying is a bit out of scope in the fact that even a mezz requires an annoying demez.. we should examinate the whole mechanic from both friendly and enemy point of view.
About the Gap, yes it does, since it requires more skill to play a buffer rather than the current classic gameplay that doesn't require much efforts on playing a buffer (with cleric being probably the easiest of the three)

Enrighteous wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM
[..]
Another alternative is you could also turn shears into a stat de-buff with a set duration, after duration has expired the user would still retain his/her buffs. This could counteract the fact that their is not uninterruptible buffs.
Buff shears with a small range seems ideal to me, sort of a risk vs reward on your positioning as your groups "healer."
[..]

That could be a middleground solution, since the risk vs reward is good and balanced approach (and would solve the objections regarding cleric/albs getting more advantage by it, since they wouldn't be able to do them while kiting at long distance - aka Risk vs Reward)

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:46 PM by Zergos

Hello
Personally I am against, there has already been a lot of controversy around the buffbot. We will always need shaman, druid and cleric spec buff for debuff and buff after a
Rez. I play the shaman, the NPC will change nothing because if I remove 2 points in spec aug to put in abysmal.I win nothing that brings to the group

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:50 PM by Isavyr

jsx wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM
Cons:
Forces annoying rebuffs.
Creates a bigger Gap between the experienced 8v8 players vs the casual (eventually leads to less groups.)

I agree with the above two points. If they only temporarily removed the buff, or the system was more thought-out, I might go for it. However, it tends to divide experienced groups from casual groups, which is a negative, seeing how far DAoC is already here.

A more logical solution to fix specifically Cleric would be to make their DDs cheaper power, and 1500 range. While the damage is still negligible, they can more effectively rupt in a push situation.

Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:52 PM by Caemma

Zergos wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:46 PM
Hello
Personally I am against, there has already been a lot of controversy around the buffbot. We will always need shaman, druid and cleric spec buff for debuff and buff after a
Rez. I play the shaman, the NPC will change nothing because if I remove 2 points in spec aug to put in abysmal.I win nothing that brings to the group

Sorry, I think I don't really undestand your point.. are you talking about buffbots (which is NOT about this thread!) or you think that Buffshears are from a secondary spec line (and not Augmentation for example?).

Buff shears are from the SAME spec line of buffs, so nothing much would change on how to train classes, don't worry

Thu 5 Apr 2018 2:00 PM by Zergos

Details a little more your idea.

For example :
what would you like to add to the shaman for example?
because for me it is already complete (Debuff, root, disease, ((dot)) and support heal)

Thu 5 Apr 2018 2:18 PM by Caemma

Zergos wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 2:00 PM
Details a little more your idea.

For example :
what would you like to add to the shaman for example?
because for me it is already complete (Debuff, root, disease, ((dot)) and support heal)

Well, basically, the buffshears are spells that negate the enemy concentration based buffs.
There are several buffshears, each one is designed to remove a single type of buff (Spec S/c, Spec D/q, Str, Con, Dex, AF, Acuity).

As a shaman, you will most likely going to use:
- Root
- Disease
- Heals
(Dot is normally a really bad idea in group play since it would break CCs and ruin other people work - same as bleeding styles)

With this change, other than just those 3 main abilities, you would have also Buff Shear, which are the spells that I've described above, which in practice would remove the target enemy buff (IF he has it, if he has not that buff your spell won't do anything at all! While Debuff instead would do always a negative effect whenever the target has or not a buff, and whenever the buff is a concentration based or a self buff - which CAN'T be sheared by the way).

I hope you understood what Buff Shears are, otherwise feel free to ask

Thu 5 Apr 2018 3:10 PM by Zergos

it already exists on the server

Thu 5 Apr 2018 5:25 PM by

gruenesschaf

Zergos wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 3:10 PM
it already exists on the server

Buffshears are currently not on the server.

Thu 5 Apr 2018 6:53 PM by amoz

Would say no initially for two reasons:
1) Rebuffing is already a pain (on Uthgard) with 1k range and interruptible buffs.
2) Balance - big buff to alb, slight buff to mid, nerf to hib.

Thu 5 Apr 2018 7:12 PM by Caemma

amoz wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 6:53 PM
Would say no initially for two reasons:
1) Rebuffing is already a pain (on Uthgard) with 1k range and interruptible buffs.
2) Balance - big buff to alb, slight buff to mid, nerf to hib.

Both points are valid in general, but, what if they would be adjusted so:
- Make buffs 1500 range instead of 1000 (like a common spell)
- Make shear 1500 range instead of 1875 (like a common spell)
That would mitigate the two issues you've pointed out?

Fri 6 Apr 2018 4:39 AM by amoz

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 7:12 PM
amoz wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 6:53 PM
Would say no initially for two reasons:
1) Rebuffing is already a pain (on Uthgard) with 1k range and interruptible buffs.
2) Balance - big buff to alb, slight buff to mid, nerf to hib.
Both points are valid in general, but, what if they would be adjusted so:
- Make buffs 1500 range instead of 1000 (like a common spell)
- Make shear 1500 range instead of 1875 (like a common spell)
That would mitigate the two issues you've pointed out?

I'd say it might mitigate the first point

Second one I'm not so sure.

Fri 6 Apr 2018 3:44 PM by Ashman

while youre at it add toa plz

Sun 8 Apr 2018 12:22 AM by Caemma

amoz wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Apr 2018 4:39 AM
Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 7:12 PM
amoz wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 6:53 PM
Would say no initially for two reasons:
1) Rebuffing is already a pain (on Uthgard) with 1k range and interruptible buffs.
2) Balance - big buff to alb, slight buff to mid, nerf to hib.
Both points are valid in general, but, what if they would be adjusted so:
- Make buffs 1500 range instead of 1000 (like a common spell)
- Make shear 1500 range instead of 1875 (like a common spell)
That would mitigate the two issues you've pointed out?
I'd say it might mitigate the first point Second one I'm not so sure.

Well, but lowering their range (shear) to 1500 yard, clerics are forced to kite less and be more in range for other spells since they wouldn't stay in 2000 range from casters (for heals) but rather 1500 range from enemies (for shears).
That might end up getting caught more often by either mezz or root than the usual cleric behavior were you usually can't reach them if they're smart enough.

In this way, I believe it would mitigate your second point

Sun 8 Apr 2018 12:23 AM by Caemma

Ashman wrote: ↑
Fri 6 Apr 2018 3:44 PM
while youre at it add toa plz

..or not?!

Mon 9 Apr 2018 8:49 AM by cptstoni

Definition of sarcasm
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
b : the use or language of sarcasm

ps. no shears, it gives those buffclasses the option to leech 90% of the rps from a fight without healing or damaging.

Mon 9 Apr 2018 7:23 PM by Kralin

No shears. It deviates too far from OF/1.65-ish era gameplay. Changing features is always a slippery slope and we are getting some changes, but in my opinion, shearing goes too far.

Mon 9 Apr 2018 8:12 PM by Soukou

I am not a fan of shears. Deviates too far from my favorite time in DaoC.

If buff bots we allowed I would be pro shears however.

Wed 18 Apr 2018 7:21 PM by Tree

Soukou wrote: ↑
Mon 9 Apr 2018 8:12 PM
I am not a fan of shears. Deviates too far from my favorite time in DaoC.

If buff bots we allowed I would be pro shears however.

Exactly.

Thu 19 Apr 2018 2:18 PM by daocgod

jsx wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 1:29 PM
Creates a bigger Gap between the experienced 8v8 players vs the casual (eventually leads to less groups.)

Casual groups cannot and should not be able to compete anyways. I know you personally don't care either way but there are others with this unspoken opinion and its just plain wrong.

Thu 19 Apr 2018 5:21 PM by dabri0n

No shears is sad! Don't dumb down RvR as done on Uthgard..

Fri 20 Apr 2018 6:29 AM by Six

i feel same as above poster, i only like shears to combat the fact that everybody had full buff 24/7 due to buffbots. i dont think its needed for classic/no bots/freeshard setting

Sat 21 Apr 2018 3:13 AM by garrith

I liked buffshears because it gave shaman, clerics, druids more purpose. The caveat is, as long as the buffers can do so without being interrupted, like on live.

Sat 28 Apr 2018 5:27 AM by Bebop86

Shears on classic sounds really aids, and the casual fodder will quit so no. I'd rather not be forced to deal with the most annoying thing ever added to the game again.

Wed 2 May 2018 10:54 PM by dabri0n

Mostly it a (custom-) 1.65 ish patch level shears just mean an even stronger Midgard. Alb can prolly run two buff clerics too since there is not point going 40+ in rej in a 1.65 setting. So it hit Hibs, where nurture druid is also the backline/heal druid most of the time.

I guess the real problem was the moc1 shear everything that shamans used to do.. there is no real cure for that.. unless you want to make healers spec buffers and move shamans in the pac role..

to move this further: the setups most impacted by buffs are caster groups too.. tanks just have to connect, on casters (even!) missing base buffs costs the figth 1/3 of the time.

Me playing supps most of the time i like shears QQ but there is reason not to have them..

Wed 8 Aug 2018 8:31 PM by Niix

Please please no...
for one I don’t think Albs need a buff to their 8v8 superiority given how people have learned how to play extend groups

Very much changes the dynamic of the game and fights and I always disliked that part during the origin live servers... totally unnecessary for any class other than cleric boredom.... would rather you add Something to cleric kit if that’s a big problem.

Wed 8 Aug 2018 10:36 PM by Falken

Most of the people that play this game are of the casual mindset, and not the hardcore 8v8 mindset. Adding one more "thing" that would be expected of people would just make it that much more intimidating for newer people to pick it up or casual players to even be able to compete.

Against it for the simple fact that it would further the gap between hardcore and casual to be competitive.

Wed 8 Aug 2018 11:07 PM by Danaeh

Yes because it makes classes from all three realm more enjoyable.

Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:10 AM by Niix

Danaeh wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Aug 2018 11:07 PM
Yes because it makes classes from all three realm more enjoyable.

How so? It’s nothing but an annoyance to constantly rebuff people, essentially are shearing and buffing all fight instead of being engaged in the fight with roots and dots and heals
I mean it’s just so unnecessary, people played and enjoyed clerics before shears.... maybe a cleric just isn’t class for you?? It’s kinda nice they have a class that is fairly simple to play without a headache of buttons

Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:41 AM by rubaduck

Technically, buff shear is a part of the game already. You just need to kill the druid/shaman/cleric and the ones who do the base buffs, problem solved.

Thu 9 Aug 2018 10:57 AM by Danaeh

Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:10 AM
Danaeh wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Aug 2018 11:07 PM
Yes because it makes classes from all three realm more enjoyable.

How so? It’s nothing but an annoyance to constantly rebuff people, essentially are shearing and buffing all fight instead of being engaged in the fight with roots and dots and heals
I mean it’s just so unnecessary, people played and enjoyed clerics before shears.... maybe a cleric just isn’t class for you?? It’s kinda nice they have a class that is fairly simple to play without a headache of buttons

Well for you it's nice to play without them, for me it's funnier with them. I chose to play a tri spec healer here because it's one of the most difficult characters. For example cleric (IMO) is absolutely boring without shears, If you kite back you don't even use your stun. But anyways, I'm not rolling any of those classes for now, just sharing my opinion, but I tell you, I would never play cleric the way It is now. Atleast druids got pet and root and shaman is nice to be played right now but would still love shears on them.
Excuse me for my poor english dude, /cheers

Thu 9 Aug 2018 11:55 AM by Takii

Caemma wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 7:12 PM
amoz wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Apr 2018 6:53 PM
Would say no initially for two reasons:
1) Rebuffing is already a pain (on Uthgard) with 1k range and interruptible buffs.
2) Balance - big buff to alb, slight buff to mid, nerf to hib.
Both points are valid in general, but, what if they would be adjusted so:
- Make buffs 1500 range instead of 1000 (like a common spell)
- Make shear 1500 range instead of 1875 (like a common spell)
That would mitigate the two issues you've pointed out?

Wait what? Buff shears are bolt range? If so, hell no. There are already plenty of ways to interrupt in the game.

This really is only a problem for Clerics as other people have mentioned. The Druids and Shamans don't need this in their kit.

Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:44 PM by heardstheword

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:41 AM
Technically, buff shear is a part of the game already. You just need to kill the druid/shaman/cleric and the ones who do the base buffs, problem solved.

Nerf the group-wide buff shear. It's too OP
/s

Thu 9 Aug 2018 7:04 PM by Niix

Danaeh wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 10:57 AM
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 12:10 AM
Danaeh wrote: ↑
Wed 8 Aug 2018 11:07 PM
Yes because it makes classes from all three realm more enjoyable.

How so? It’s nothing but an annoyance to constantly rebuff people, essentially are shearing and buffing all fight instead of being engaged in the fight with roots and dots and heals
I mean it’s just so unnecessary, people played and enjoyed clerics before shears.... maybe a cleric just isn’t class for you?? It’s kinda nice they have a class that is fairly simple to play without a headache of buttons

Well for you it's nice to play without them, for me it's funnier with them. I chose to play a tri spec healer here because it's one of the most difficult characters. For example cleric (IMO) is absolutely boring without shears, If you kite back you don't even use your stun. But anyways, I'm not rolling any of those classes for now, just sharing my opinion, but I tell you, I would never play cleric the way It is now. Atleast druids got pet and root and shaman is nice to be played right now but would still love shears on them.
Excuse me for my poor english dude, /cheers

I hear you, but you’re proving my point. Just don’t play a cleric, I actually think it’s quite nice that this game allows that simple play style that lots of people enjoy. Not everyone can or enjoys playing true spec healers with 3 full bars of important usable skills.... it’s one reason I hate what other games have become, just ADD ADD ADD ADD buttons for the sake of adding something in the game just becomes nauseating.

I think one of the greatest aspects of this game is the strong uniqueness each class and realm contains, all within a fairly simple and understandable system. I just read a bit on CU and the complexity to their stat system is just stupid over complicated... adds nothing to game for 99%.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:59 AM by rubaduck

Buff shearing was a necessity on live because of the buff bot situation, which is a non factor on freeshards like Uthgard and Phoenix. Support / healer classes could pvp without any investment in their buff lines, and go split heal/offensive and completely neglect aug/nurt/enhancement for pvp all together.

While I do understand that the complexity of the classes increased tenfolds and that this is appealable to a certain group of players, it is still a nuisance when it is a mechanic that was added to combat the use of buffbots (without targeting their economy), which again is a non-factor here.

In this case, take it or leave it I guess.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 9:44 AM by Jaegaer

If you ever soloed a Shaman in PvP you know why there are buffshears. They are the main, even the only viable source of RP's for such a character.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 11:46 AM by Takii

Jaegaer wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 9:44 AM
If you ever soloed a Shaman in PvP you know why there are buffshears. They are the main, even the only viable source of RP's for such a character.

I'm pretty sure Solo Shamans were quite far down the list of factors involved in buff shears being added to the game...

Mon 13 Aug 2018 9:36 PM by Caemma

I'm happy to see that this discussion continued a lot since 4 months ago

I see that most of people are pointing fingers towards the increase of skill required for buffers.
While some other people rightfully point out that this mechanic was probably introduced to counter buffbots, interesting theory indeed

Probably I would love those skills in the game because I like to have more way to express my skill, and on top of that I also had experienced them in a "sort-of-classic" Uthgard 1.0 settings, where they have been there for around 10 years without causing the death of pugs.

Would be wonderful to hear some opinions from the staff on the matter ^^

Keep going.

Tue 14 Aug 2018 6:38 AM by Galahad

We already did answer this in the other thread on the same topic.

We currently do not plan to add buff shears. Maybe this is something we will look at again some time after the server has launched.

Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:22 PM by phixion

I vote no, buff shears might be fun to throw out, but being buff sheared is extremely frustrating, especially if you’re a soloer/duoer or run in a small man without a buffer. It just means your buff pot charges are wasted.

Being sheared in an 8 man is a minor inconvenience as you just get rebuffed.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:41 AM by Enevi

phixion wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:22 PM
I vote no, buff shears might be fun to throw out, but being buff sheared is extremely frustrating, especially if you’re a soloer/duoer or run in a small man without a buffer. It just means your buff pot charges are wasted.

Being sheared in an 8 man is a minor inconvenience as you just get rebuffed.

Hi Phixion,

I hope that when participating in elections you normally inform yourself a bit better before taking a vote.

https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/grab-bag-may-15-2009

For the reading lazy ones:
"Any buff that is placed upon a character and originates from that same character (be it through spell or item) is unshearable by the cleric/druid/shaman buff shears ... This includes regular concentration buffs, self buffs, concentration buffs from CLs, buff charges, and buff pots."

Regards,
Enevi

Wed 15 Aug 2018 3:30 PM by phixion

Enevi wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:41 AM
Hi Phixion,

I hope that when participating in elections you normally inform yourself a bit better before taking a vote.

https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/grab-bag-may-15-2009

For the reading lazy ones:
"Any buff that is placed upon a character and originates from that same character (be it through spell or item) is unshearable by the cleric/druid/shaman buff shears ... This includes regular concentration buffs, self buffs, concentration buffs from CLs, buff charges, and buff pots."

Regards,
Enevi

Admittedly, I haven't read every grab bag ever, so excuse my ignorance. But my memory of buff shears goes back to the days of soloing on my NS with buffbot buffs, it was extremely annoying having to go back to the portal keep to rebuff after being sheared.

Upon learning this new information, my vote remains. Beyond being an annoyance, I believe they are far too detrimental to fights. Such a huge debuff for such a throwaway, fast cast skill... It's just too much, in my opinion.