Merc DW Sytles with wrong growth rates

Started 16 Aug 2018
by Gwendolein
in Resolved Issues
Hello I did some testing with my lvl 50 Merc on mobs as well as in pvp and identified that the damage seems to be odd.

For the Merc (spec Thrust 39+ 12, DW 50 +12) the higest hitting styles should be flank and shadow rain, however the damage from flank is significant lower than the damage from dual shadows (around 25%). Dual shadow even outperforms shadows rain. It seems like flank and shadow rain damage is by far to low. It is infact compareable with the taunt style (inflame).

Please check the grwoth rate - if there is more testsing needed, I am happy to support.
Please find enclosed the overview of the grwoth rates as per patch 1.65d

Dual Shadows 0.80
Flank 0.85
Shadow's Rain 1.05

As I said, at the moment flank dies nearly the same damage as inflame wich should be around 0.60

8 Inflame 0.60


Style Line: Dual Wield
Level Name Growth Prerequisite Attack Defense Fatigue Damage Effect
2 Twin Spikes 0.05 M L-
4 Twin Return 0.90 You evade M L L M Bleed 20s 3h/4s, 18 total
6 Shadow's Edge 0.65 Behind foe M M H
8 Inflame 0.60 M- M L Taunt
10 Orbit 0.90 Twin Return M M M Hindered 100% for 12s
12 Eclipse 0.90 Shadow's Edge M M H Slowed 20s
15 Misty Gloom 0.45 L H M
18 Obscure 0.00 H M Detaunt
21 Penumbra 0.90 Shadow's Edge H M H
25 Reflection 0.90 You parry L L L M
29 Flank 0.85 Beside foe M M H Hindered 100% for 12s
34 Dark Tendrils 0.90 Merc=parry, Inf=evade M L M Bleed 40s 15h/4s, 165 total
39 Shadow's Rain 1.05 Flank M L M H Slowed 20s
44 Hypnotic Darkness 0.90 Reflection H M M Stun 7s
50 Dual Shadows 0.80 Facing foe M M- M M Bleed 40s 25h/4s, 275 total

Issue Timeline

16 Aug 2018 Gwendolein created this issue
16 Aug 2018 gruenesschaf triaged this issue
16 Aug 2018 Arctic triaged this issue
16 Aug 2018 cdc triaged this issue
17 Aug 2018 Maxim triaged this issue
17 Aug 2018 Eileithyia assigned this issue from Nobody to Eileithyia
17 Aug 2018 Eileithyia assigned this issue from Eileithyia to Nobody
17 Aug 2018 Eileithyia assigned this issue from Nobody to Eileithyia
17 Aug 2018 Eileithyia assigned this issue from Eileithyia to Nobody
17 Aug 2018 zeph assigned this issue from Nobody to zeph
19 Aug 2018 zeph changed the status of this issue from in_progress to feedback
22 Sep 2018 zeph assigned this issue from zeph to Nobody
22 Sep 2018 zeph assigned this issue from Nobody to zeph
22 Sep 2018 zeph changed the status of this issue from in_progress to resolved
Thu 16 Aug 2018 2:14 PM by Gwendolein
Testet again vs lvl 50 Arms with 50 shild:
Dual Shadow: between 130 and 140 damage main hand
Flank: between 105 - 115 damage main hand
Shadow Rain: between 115 and 30 damage main hand.
Clearly wrong
Sun 19 Aug 2018 9:40 AM by zeph
Many styles have now been reviewd

Melee damage uses this formulas: https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
* SWING_SPEED
* DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
+ BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUS

https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Dual_Wield
Flank: STYLE_BASE 90, STYLE_GROWTH 2
Shadow's Rain: STYLE_BASE 130, STYLE_GROWTH 3
Dual Shadows: STYLE_BASE 170, STYLE_GROWTH 3
Tue 21 Aug 2018 6:16 AM by Gwendolein
Hello, how do you calculate the damage modifier - based on the information on your link to dual wield, the damage type is "Damage modification: 100% Strength". This kind of odd and would make Saracen Merc absolutly useless. The Dual WIeld Damage modifier was to my knowlegde always based on the weapon you are using (slash / crush = str, Thrust = 50% dex/%50% str=)
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:30 AM by gruenesschaf
What the damage stat says for non weapon type lines, like dw / cd / la, can be ignored. The proper 1h dmg stat is used, in case of thrust weapons 50/50, in case of slashing or crushing 100% str.
Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:25 AM by Gwendolein
In my understanding the damage of low level styles is much higher as it should be.



Melee damage uses this formulas: https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)

SWING_SPEED
DAMAGE_MODIFIER / 10
BASE_DAMAGE * TOA_STYLE_BONUS
https://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Dual_Wield
Flank: STYLE_BASE 90, STYLE_GROWTH 2
Shadow’s Rain: STYLE_BASE 130, STYLE_GROWTH 3
Dual Shadows: STYLE_BASE 170, STYLE_GROWTH 3

The issue is based on the following factor in the formula:
STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)

meaning if the style level is low but the spec is quite high e.g. 50 + 16 and youe use a lvl 6 style- the damage boost is great.

It can be demonstrated with the following example:
Style Level 8: Inflame Style Base Damage 16, Style Growth 2 —> Damage 196
vs
Style Level: 29 Amethyst Slash Style Base 75, Style Grwoth 2 ----> Damage 204

This only 4 % different between one of the highest hitting anytimer in the game and a weak lvl 8 taunt.
If Amethyst Slash would be lvl 50 style instead of a lvl 29 the damge would be only 183 and therfore lower as the Inflame damage.

I build a spredsheet with all formulas provided for meele damage and calculated it with some style. It feels just wrong since higher level styles are just weaker as they should be and low level styles like the BM backsnare are way to stong.

I am happy to provide the spreadsheet to the team to test it. But I would higly recommed to use grwoth rates otherwise the meele damage feels broken.
Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:45 AM by Gwendolein
Additional Comment - I tested the results from the spreadsheet with my Merc as well. The Damage numbers are not the same (i guess because I used 25 in my spreadsheet for the the random (50) command to have a fix value - but it comes very near to the real damage numbers + the % difference between the styles are identical between the server test results and my calculations.

Therfore the formulars under meele damage seems to be implemented in the game as stated on the link. But as I said, it just feels wrong and overpowers low level styles. On top of it, it is actually influnances the spec of a merc. It was always known to skill only 52 combined spec in weapon and after this the damge will not increase anymore. But if you now spec 50 weapon, due to the formular stated in the last comment the damage will increase. Damage with 39 + 14 and Amethyst Slash (29) = 204, Damage with 50 + 14 and Amethyst Slash (29) = 217 ->>> 5,6% more damage per swing. One additional releam rank would lead to roughly 0,5% damage increase. The funny think is, that as lower the style is that you are using, as more the style damage benefits from higher specs… again due to the following part of the formula: STYLE_DAMAGE = (STYLE_BASE + (SPEC - STYLE_LEVEL) * STYLE_GROWTH)
Sun 2 Sep 2018 7:59 AM by Skylaar
I confirm that flank and Sr do less dmg
On paper :
Flank 0.85
SR 1.02

On training Dummy :
Flank 0.62
SR 0.80
Sun 2 Sep 2018 8:10 AM by Skylaar
well whatever formula you are using the side chain sucks and has no point, same as back chain
Thu 6 Sep 2018 6:39 PM by Nehm
This really needs to be looked over and fixed. At the moment the anytime styles with "Low" or "Medium" damage does the same damage, sometimes even more(!), than the side and back chains with "High" damage.
Fri 7 Sep 2018 2:41 AM by Skylaar
I just tested Celtic Dual and it works as intended. Only dual wield seems to be nerfed
Wed 19 Sep 2018 6:52 AM by Skylaar
so after the recent changes now we have :
inflame 0.52 should be 0.54
flank 0.76 should be 0.85
SR 0.95 should be 1.02
DS 0.72 should be 0.79

Just to understand, is this part of the balancing ? because in case I won't bother anymore
Wed 19 Sep 2018 4:21 PM by zeph
https://imgur.com/a/UZT4Dlv
maybe you are not accounting for haste effect
Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:04 PM by Skylaar
now i tried with 2 weapons of the same speed, same result.
Should i zero quickness?
Thu 20 Sep 2018 12:23 PM by Skylaar
now also celtic dual seems weaker
Thu 20 Sep 2018 1:11 PM by zeph
Here is a good write up on how growth rate works:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041209204800/http://daoc.nisrv.com:80/modules.php?name=Weapon_Style_Faq
Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:17 AM by zeph
Just fyi. I will resolve this issue since it is about the growth rates and those have been corrected.
That being said, if you find any problems with how the damage formulas works please open a ticket about it or drop a PM in discord.
Mon 24 Sep 2018 6:53 AM by Skylaar
thank you.
you were right!

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