GTAE - Should the way GTAOE works be changed?

Started 27 Apr 2020
by Uthred
in Open Community Votes
From now on for the next up to 7 days (ends 4th of May), there is a new ingame voting active.

We would simple like to know, if you think the way how GTAOE is working currently is fine as it is or if you would like to have it changed, so that targets require LoS to the ground target to be hit (can still cast it without los).

You need to log in to the game and you need to have a level 50 toon on your account which is at least realm rank 3. You only have one vote per account. Type ingame /vote and you will see the different options to choose from.


Vote Results:

380 - Keep it as is
1568 - Targets require LoS to the Ground target
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:46 PM by LikeaBoss
Thanks Uthred. Personally I don't see an issue with GTAoE - even in the largest keep/tower fights it's not terribly hard to find a safe area to cast. Lazy people just don't wanna move.

The biggest frustration I have with tower/keep defense is stacking of static tempest. It's no fun being a defender and being put in lock-down for 20+ seconds and bombed into oblivion with no chance to fight back. GTAoE you can avoid mostly - ST can go through floors and stack together to stunlock everyone for 25 seconds. I'd like to see a LoS check and/or remove the stacking mechanic. Just my 2 copper!
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:51 PM by Razur Ur
LikeaBoss wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:46 PM
Thanks Uthred. Personally I don't see an issue with GTAoE - even in the largest keep/tower fights it's not terribly hard to find a safe area to cast. Lazy people just don't wanna move.

The biggest frustration I have with tower/keep defense is stacking of static tempest. It's no fun being a defender and being put in lock-down for 20+ seconds and bombed into oblivion with no chance to fight back. GTAoE you can avoid mostly - ST can go through floors and stack together to stunlock everyone for 25 seconds. I'd like to see a LoS check and/or remove the stacking mechanic. Just my 2 copper!

plz stop whining over static tempest!!!!
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:55 PM by palidian
An other issue is necromancers wondering around immune to damage, setting up ground targets for people to assist off of. How would this change effect that?
Mon 27 Apr 2020 4:08 PM by Simon73
LikeaBoss wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:46 PM
Thanks Uthred. Personally I don't see an issue with GTAoE - even in the largest keep/tower fights it's not terribly hard to find a safe area to cast. Lazy people just don't wanna move.

The biggest frustration I have with tower/keep defense is stacking of static tempest. It's no fun being a defender and being put in lock-down for 20+ seconds and bombed into oblivion with no chance to fight back. GTAoE you can avoid mostly - ST can go through floors and stack together to stunlock everyone for 25 seconds. I'd like to see a LoS check and/or remove the stacking mechanic. Just my 2 copper!

What?
ahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:05 PM by Tubby
I honestly feel the los to the ground target will change nothing. What I would love to see is the removal of highering or lowering the ground target. As a wizard I use this ability alot. I feel if your in a keep or tower with less numbers you should be at an advantage but when the enemy zerg is attacking you has more numbers and the gtaoe cover most floors if not every you cant defend at all your a sitting duck. Bringing in the gtaoe can only be casted level with your character would fix all problems I feel. I'm suprised this has not been a vote or even thought of.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:08 PM by VypirX504
palidian wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:55 PM
An other issue is necromancers wondering around immune to damage, setting up ground targets for people to assist off of. How would this change effect that?

If the GTAOE is changed to where you must see the target to get the nuke even with a necro dropping a GT the wizard will have to come out where they are exposed to actually utilize this. As much as i would like to see this take Hibernia down a notch it'll end up working in their favor by exposing more casters to the stun nuke nuke. It will honestly just make defending more bearable for healers seeing as they are usually the ones hiding on the 2nd floor base floor etc.

All in all, im for the change. Entirely to many Earth wizzies and Elds just afk against the towers spamming 1 button for tags and interrupts.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:28 PM by gotwqqd
Tubby wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:05 PM
I honestly feel the los to the ground target will change nothing. What I would love to see is the removal of highering or lowering the ground target. As a wizard I use this ability alot. I feel if your in a keep or tower with less numbers you should be at an advantage but when the enemy zerg is attacking you has more numbers and the gtaoe cover most floors if not every you cant defend at all your a sitting duck. Bringing in the gtaoe can only be casted level with your character would fix all problems I feel. I'm suprised this has not been a vote or even thought of.
So you ruin the ability of a defensive positioned caster on a wall from using it?
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:49 PM by Freudinio
LikeaBoss wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 3:46 PM
Thanks Uthred. Personally I don't see an issue with GTAoE - even in the largest keep/tower fights it's not terribly hard to find a safe area to cast. Lazy people just don't wanna move.

The biggest frustration I have with tower/keep defense is stacking of static tempest. It's no fun being a defender and being put in lock-down for 20+ seconds and bombed into oblivion with no chance to fight back. GTAoE you can avoid mostly - ST can go through floors and stack together to stunlock everyone for 25 seconds. I'd like to see a LoS check and/or remove the stacking mechanic. Just my 2 copper!

What? I'm going to disregard the ST comment, because.. lol.

I tried to defend two keeps yesterday and several towers against an alb zerg. I believe we found one spot in one tower where we did not get hit.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 6:42 PM by Strikejk
Hi Uthred. I personall don't mind GTAoE as it is, but I would also not mind it having LoS requirement. Either way I can work with it, however the DPS is already very low on GTAoE and you have a severe range restriction which is both enough to make GTAoE less effective imo. You can easily outheal GTAoE with basic heal pots (or any healer for that matter) or simply just run out of the impact zone due to quick damage drop off.

That being said, the biggest problem I see is that Static Tempest is already incredible powerful in tower/keep fights and almost always the deciding factor when it comes to these fights. Weakening a different tactic like with GTAoE will subsequently increase the effectivness of the Static Tempest tactic even further, and it is already way too strong as it is.
Static Tempest goes through walls/ceiling without any LoS requirement making avoiding it impossible as you often don't even see it as player. Furthermore it destroys any strategy as a permanent lockdown for 25s or more + the remove of stun immunity is basically an auto-lose for the victim.
Static Tempest is so powerful that the only proper counterplay in the game is a Static Tempest from your own.
This subsequently means that the realm / Battlegroup with the most STs wins. Basically an I-Win button.

With that being said we come to a second problem, the uneven distribution fo static tempest in the realms.
The raw numbers of available chars with ST in each realm:
Hibernia: 2
Albion: 1
Midgard: 1

As you can see Hibernia has already 50% more static tempests in raw numbers.
Now if you factor in the distribution of each class it gets even worse. As there are plenty of Mentalists out there, easily as many as Friar and Thanes if not more, with also having the Champions on top of that.
Furthermore we have to look at the distribution of classes per average group and the Mentalist is a stable in Hibernian groups, while Thanes are not and neither are Friar who are often replaced by double clerics instead. And ofc the Champion comes on top of it again as decent melee for the average group.
Another point is the effectiveness in delivery as you need to target an enemy and be in range to use it, you need especially for tower fights a class with good survivability and yes you guessed right Hibernia is on top of the ladder again with their champion who has the easiest time delivering his payload, with Thane being a close second then Friar and lastly Mentalist.
Sadly we aint over yet, cause now we have to look at the severity of losing a character to the group in case he dies in the act of delivering his payload and as you can probably already tell Hibernia wins again with their Champion, followed by Thane, Mentalist and lastly with a big gap inbetween the Friar who has by far the biggest consequence to the group if he dies due to providing buffs, resistances and heals.
But we can't stop yet , cause now we come to the distribution of RP for each class to find out how likely it is for each char to put the RPs into Static Tempest. How do we do that? Simply, we look at what other RAs that char has to choose from and how much that char can make use of static tempest by himself, for example via slam.
And I'm certain people will see me as Hibernian haters at this point but once again the leading pack is Hibernia:
1. Champion, he can make use of the ST himself by having slam available which allows him to perma lockdown an opponent for 25s while also not having numerous other big impact RAs to spec into compared to other classes.
2. Thane is a close second to the champion for the same reason.
3. Mentalist is only on #3 because they have other good RAs to choose from but they also can make use of it via a stun combo
4. Friar with a big gap inbetween because not only can they not make use of the ST by themself due to lack of any stun available but they also need plenty of RPs for the healing and buff RAs as it is the only class of these 4 who is also a healer on top the regular damage dealing abilities.

As you can see, there are plenty of factors that go into the distribution and likelyhood of having ST in each group and subsequently BG, which then is the deciding factor in battles.
In a nutshell by my estimate Hibernia as roughly a 3 times as many ST as the other realms. 2 times from the raw number advantage when it comes to classes and another 1 time due to classes with high availability and high likelihood of putting RPs into static tempest. With Albion being at the lowest end of the spectrum.
That being said the devs can probably check the availability of ST for each realm directly in the server.

TLDR; GTAoE isn't as horrible as it is made out to be, but I wouldn't cry if it gets nerfed. However the real culprit and balance breaker in this game is static tempest which will be even stronger in comparison if all other tactics get nerfed. Static Tempest leads to a boring autowin where you cant use any tactic against it except for using static tempest yourself. This however leads to autowins for certain realms due to the very uneven distribution of the realm ability.

Sorry for the wall of text but there was a lot to the issue that needed to be clarified so people who are less familiar with this topic understand it properly.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 6:51 PM by Nachtfee
Nerf this, Nerf that plz stop whining and plz go play another game. So what next ? Range of AE Mezz of Sorc ? Charm orange red Pets from Mincer and Mentas ? may u should Nerf Stealther an rip there Stealth as well. The game mechanic work fine since 2002 so why u will kill the game with all that not necessary changes
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:14 PM by Furyan1234
Strikejk wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 6:42 PM
Hi Uthred. I personall don't mind GTAoE as it is, but I would also not mind it having LoS requirement. Either way I can work with it, however the DPS is already very low on GTAoE and you have a severe range restriction which is both enough to make GTAoE less effective imo. You can easily outheal GTAoE with basic heal pots (or any healer for that matter) or simply just run out of the impact zone due to quick damage drop off.

That being said, the biggest problem I see is that Static Tempest is already incredible powerful in tower/keep fights and almost always the deciding factor when it comes to these fights. Weakening a different tactic like with GTAoE will subsequently increase the effectivness of the Static Tempest tactic even further, and it is already way too strong as it is.
Static Tempest goes through walls/ceiling without any LoS requirement making avoiding it impossible as you often don't even see it as player. Furthermore it destroys any strategy as a permanent lockdown for 25s or more + the remove of stun immunity is basically an auto-lose for the victim.
Static Tempest is so powerful that the only proper counterplay in the game is a Static Tempest from your own.
This subsequently means that the realm / Battlegroup with the most STs wins. Basically an I-Win button.

With that being said we come to a second problem, the uneven distribution fo static tempest in the realms.
The raw numbers of available chars with ST in each realm:
Hibernia: 2
Albion: 1
Midgard: 1

As you can see Hibernia has already 50% more static tempests in raw numbers.
Now if you factor in the distribution of each class it gets even worse. As there are plenty of Mentalists out there, easily as many as Friar and Thanes if not more, with also having the Champions on top of that.
Furthermore we have to look at the distribution of classes per average group and the Mentalist is a stable in Hibernian groups, while Thanes are not and neither are Friar who are often replaced by double clerics instead. And ofc the Champion comes on top of it again as decent melee for the average group.
Another point is the effectiveness in delivery as you need to target an enemy and be in range to use it, you need especially for tower fights a class with good survivability and yes you guessed right Hibernia is on top of the ladder again with their champion who has the easiest time delivering his payload, with Thane being a close second then Friar and lastly Mentalist.
Sadly we aint over yet, cause now we have to look at the severity of losing a character to the group in case he dies in the act of delivering his payload and as you can probably already tell Hibernia wins again with their Champion, followed by Thane, Mentalist and lastly with a big gap inbetween the Friar who has by far the biggest consequence to the group if he dies due to providing buffs, resistances and heals.
But we can't stop yet , cause now we come to the distribution of RP for each class to find out how likely it is for each char to put the RPs into Static Tempest. How do we do that? Simply, we look at what other RAs that char has to choose from and how much that char can make use of static tempest by himself, for example via slam.
And I'm certain people will see me as Hibernian haters at this point but once again the leading pack is Hibernia:
1. Champion, he can make use of the ST himself by having slam available which allows him to perma lockdown an opponent for 25s while also not having numerous other big impact RAs to spec into compared to other classes.
2. Thane is a close second to the champion for the same reason.
3. Mentalist is only on #3 because they have other good RAs to choose from but they also can make use of it via a stun combo
4. Friar with a big gap inbetween because not only can they not make use of the ST by themself due to lack of any stun available but they also need plenty of RPs for the healing and buff RAs as it is the only class of these 4 who is also a healer on top the regular damage dealing abilities.

As you can see, there are plenty of factors that go into the distribution and likelyhood of having ST in each group and subsequently BG, which then is the deciding factor in battles.
In a nutshell by my estimate Hibernia as roughly a 3 times as many ST as the other realms. 2 times from the raw number advantage when it comes to classes and another 1 time due to classes with high availability and high likelihood of putting RPs into static tempest. With Albion being at the lowest end of the spectrum.
That being said the devs can probably check the availability of ST for each realm directly in the server.

TLDR; GTAoE isn't as horrible as it is made out to be, but I wouldn't cry if it gets nerfed. However the real culprit and balance breaker in this game is static tempest which will be even stronger in comparison if all other tactics get nerfed. Static Tempest leads to a boring autowin where you cant use any tactic against it except for using static tempest yourself. This however leads to autowins for certain realms due to the very uneven distribution of the realm ability.

Sorry for the wall of text but there was a lot to the issue that needed to be clarified so people who are less familiar with this topic understand it properly.

IT is not about the Damage Gtaoe does, its all about having EVERYONE inside the tower/Keep PERMANENTLY rupted.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:29 PM by Quik
How about everyone just vote in game and see what the majority wants to do?

I am always seeing people post on the forums saying "Most of us don't want this!" when in fact this is the only way to truly find out what "most" of us want.
Mon 27 Apr 2020 9:01 PM by Vkejai
Honestly I wouldn't change anything, server seems healthy , everyone has access to gt aoe and is only a real pain when theres a massive zerg on the tower.

Already been to many changes here for my liking.
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:19 AM by Jeterix
I don't know what it means when you say that people will need to have los but it can still be cast without los.

I don't think that requiring people to have los is a good fix because that pretty much guts the ability.

I do seem to remember a time when people couldn't cast GTAE in enemy keeps unless it had first been treb'd to 0%. This would fix the problem because then the attacking realm can't just GTAE spam everyone to death unless they first spend a while trebbing down the keep to 0%.
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:34 AM by Azrael
Quik wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:29 PM
How about everyone just vote in game and see what the majority wants to do?

I am always seeing people post on the forums saying "Most of us don't want this!" when in fact this is the only way to truly find out what "most" of us want.

I am pretty sure if you let ppl vote for every (dumb) idea people came up it takes a week or two and you have same settings as on on live servers.
Tue 28 Apr 2020 2:42 AM by gotwqqd
Jeterix wrote:
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:19 AM
I don't know what it means when you say that people will need to have los but it can still be cast without los.

I don't think that requiring people to have los is a good fix because that pretty much guts the ability.

I do seem to remember a time when people couldn't cast GTAE in enemy keeps unless it had first been treb'd to 0%. This would fix the problem because then the attacking realm can't just GTAE spam everyone to death unless they first spend a while trebbing down the keep to 0%.
Epicenter/splash of gtaoe will not hit enemies(targets) without LoS
The target(ground target) will remain as before
No LoS needed for casting only distance check
Tue 28 Apr 2020 6:11 AM by Sepplord
Tubby wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 5:05 PM
I honestly feel the los to the ground target will change nothing. What I would love to see is the removal of highering or lowering the ground target. As a wizard I use this ability alot. I feel if your in a keep or tower with less numbers you should be at an advantage but when the enemy zerg is attacking you has more numbers and the gtaoe cover most floors if not every you cant defend at all your a sitting duck. Bringing in the gtaoe can only be casted level with your character would fix all problems I feel. I'm suprised this has not been a vote or even thought of.

Two misconceptions i want to clear up:

a) LOS is not needed from the caster to the groundtarget, so casters do not need to change their position for casting
b) the LOS restriction is planned to do a LOS-Check from the GT to the surrounding targets. So a GTAE would not cover multiple floors anymore, by placing the GT in midair between the floors. Which already halves the area one GTAE covers. If you then account for walls/obstructions in the same plane as the GT the affected area further shrinks in comparison to the status quo
Tue 28 Apr 2020 12:39 PM by Wakanidoo
Instead of nerf GTAOE, make it working correctly. On other servers, GTAOE works fine, we never heard about problems with that.
Only bugged on Phoenix: the GTAOE should damage only the floor where the yellow center is positionned, not the whole tower.
Tue 28 Apr 2020 3:31 PM by Quik
Azrael wrote:
Tue 28 Apr 2020 1:34 AM
Quik wrote:
Mon 27 Apr 2020 8:29 PM
How about everyone just vote in game and see what the majority wants to do?

I am always seeing people post on the forums saying "Most of us don't want this!" when in fact this is the only way to truly find out what "most" of us want.

I am pretty sure if you let ppl vote for every (dumb) idea people came up it takes a week or two and you have same settings as on on live servers.

This could easily be the case...but everyone that is not a dev deserves equal say without fear of being ridiculed for how they personally would like the game.

If the dev's have a system in place they are good with, that should be the end of it. If the dev's are on the fence about something, asking for a vote from everyone equally is a fair idea.
Tue 28 Apr 2020 4:09 PM by HtGeist
should not be able to elevate the gtaoe spot,move along ground only,in my opinion it is called Groundtargetting,so the moving it inside a keep and elevating till hit something like sink the battleship i feel has no place.
Wed 29 Apr 2020 8:55 AM by Messerjockel
Hello,

Which realm has the most advantage from the current system of GTAOE?

BR
Roteflut, Albion
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:12 AM by Centenario
Just imagine GTAOE has the equivalent of Volley for Archers:
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows in volley on top of a castle keep, maybe but from very close, cause its very high.
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows inside a keep -> no lol
etc...
GTAOE are just things being thrown from the sky like arrows, spears, thunder, etc...
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:15 AM by Sepplord
Centenario wrote:
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:12 AM
Just imagine GTAOE has the equivalent of Volley for Archers:
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows in volley on top of a castle keep, maybe but from very close, cause its very high.
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows inside a keep -> no lol
etc...
GTAOE are just things being thrown from the sky like arrows, spears, thunder, etc...

with arrows we know how they work and can make comparisons to realism...

How you come to those conclusions about magic though is something you need to explain more clearly
Wed 29 Apr 2020 11:49 AM by Centenario
Sepplord wrote:
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:15 AM
Centenario wrote:
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:12 AM
Just imagine GTAOE has the equivalent of Volley for Archers:
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows in volley on top of a castle keep, maybe but from very close, cause its very high.
- Should archers be able to shoot arrows inside a keep -> no lol
etc...
GTAOE are just things being thrown from the sky like arrows, spears, thunder, etc...
with arrows we know how they work and can make comparisons to realism...
How you come to those conclusions about magic though is something you need to explain more clearly

OMG, because I said its the magic equivalent of Volley for archery.
For sure if you want to trigger our imagination I could say:
Magic is the manipulation of atoms with the use of energy, which is similar to lightning, the further you get the higher the energy consumption.
If a spell cost X mana then the range is limited to that kinda range.
Also if you create spear dropping from the sky, once created they just drop down.
If you create an Energy bubble that burst, then it bursts out from its center point, but the bubble once created does not go through walls.

Energy creates matter, matter which is more easily understandable.
Wed 29 Apr 2020 1:09 PM by Sepplord
Centenario wrote:
Wed 29 Apr 2020 11:49 AM
OMG, because I said its the magic equivalent of Volley for archery.

That's just circular logic though...basically a "because i said so"-explanation
"Just imagine XXX" doesn't mean that XXX is true or that it should be the base for balance changes

It sounded as if you were trying to make it a reason for why GTAOE should work that way...
If you were just making a suggestion, it was a misunderstanding
Wed 29 Apr 2020 3:18 PM by Centenario
Well then describe what is GTAOE for you if magic would exist.
Wed 29 Apr 2020 10:02 PM by Sepplord
It could be a ton of different things...i dont roleplay, but I am not the one recommending gamechanges based on my personal RP imagination...

And while it makes sense (to a small degree), to have believable (not necessarily realistic) mechanics for stuff that also exists in real life (like archery) i just don't see how to do that for something like magic that is made up and exists in various different forms ingame
Thu 30 Apr 2020 1:06 PM by gruenesschaf
Given the rather conclusive vote result the change will come in the next update today already.

Vote Results:

380 - Keep it as is
1568 - Targets require LoS to the Ground target


The next update will include the following changes related to this:
1) For normal ground target spells only those targets that have line of sight to the ground target will be hit, this affects players and npcs
2) A placed static tempest will work the same as a placed TWF, NM already work: when in keep / tower areas player can only be hit when they have line of sight to the effect location
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