I just came back after a fairly long break, I see now that there doesn't seem to be any penalty to speed while you're swimming. I think this is stupid. The whole point of swimming slower than you run is it puts a strategic element in play, if you move the same in the water as you do on land, then might as well not even have water.
Water movement speed change, why
Started 20 Jun 2019
by
lolhisup
Thu 20 Jun 2019 6:40 PM
by
ExcretusMaximus
This proves it; people will cry about anything.
EDIT: I did not understand the implications of these changes when I posted this; now I find water to be broken. "Hey, let's hold the backward key and move as fast backward as we do forward, making melee use anytime styles while my three other caster friends melt him!"
EDIT: I did not understand the implications of these changes when I posted this; now I find water to be broken. "Hey, let's hold the backward key and move as fast backward as we do forward, making melee use anytime styles while my three other caster friends melt him!"
Thu 20 Jun 2019 6:52 PM
by
lolhisup
*So I figured it doesn't help my cause to be rude so I will add in kind of why I take the stance I do about swimming speed and water.
Basically, imo, water is like a barrier. It used to be you look across the water, see an enemy troop, and then you would kind of dance around a little bit. It would be a risky move to just go swim and move towards them, because when you do that, you are moving at a slow speed and the enemy can just wait for you at the other end of the shore and nuke you while you're in the water or something. So you have to think of a different plan. Maybe, you try to run and cross the river at a point further down where hopefully no enemies see you and then you try to get behind your opponents on their side of the water. Or maybe you split your group up and send some people to the water and lure the enemy troops into the water, then your group pops out from behind a tree and nukes them.
Since you move so fast in water now, all these strategic plays that I used to do very often, aren't that great. There is still some advantages to being in the water, for example, unless you are aware of it or are actively looking, lurikeens are difficult to spot while they are swimming, depending on the color of their armor and some other things. Water still holds some concealment, but it isn't that great because you will get jumped pretty quick if you do get spotted. It used to be if you did get spotted, you would have a chance to get away, because if they tried to get to where you were in the water, they would have to swim across, but since they swim pretty slow compared to running, you could still get away.
Water is a barrier, water is protection but the swim movement change kind of ruins it. I prefer the old swimming speed so then you can use water more as a strategic element.
Also, I think with fast swim speed, people are more likely to swim instead of using bridges, and I think bridges are supposed to be choke points but with fast swim speed you can just avoid the bridge.
Basically, imo, water is like a barrier. It used to be you look across the water, see an enemy troop, and then you would kind of dance around a little bit. It would be a risky move to just go swim and move towards them, because when you do that, you are moving at a slow speed and the enemy can just wait for you at the other end of the shore and nuke you while you're in the water or something. So you have to think of a different plan. Maybe, you try to run and cross the river at a point further down where hopefully no enemies see you and then you try to get behind your opponents on their side of the water. Or maybe you split your group up and send some people to the water and lure the enemy troops into the water, then your group pops out from behind a tree and nukes them.
Since you move so fast in water now, all these strategic plays that I used to do very often, aren't that great. There is still some advantages to being in the water, for example, unless you are aware of it or are actively looking, lurikeens are difficult to spot while they are swimming, depending on the color of their armor and some other things. Water still holds some concealment, but it isn't that great because you will get jumped pretty quick if you do get spotted. It used to be if you did get spotted, you would have a chance to get away, because if they tried to get to where you were in the water, they would have to swim across, but since they swim pretty slow compared to running, you could still get away.
Water is a barrier, water is protection but the swim movement change kind of ruins it. I prefer the old swimming speed so then you can use water more as a strategic element.
Also, I think with fast swim speed, people are more likely to swim instead of using bridges, and I think bridges are supposed to be choke points but with fast swim speed you can just avoid the bridge.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 6:19 PM
by
Fribrand
Dude... If you have played here long enough... you would know what happened.
The speed was changed because one of the Devs had their Assassin actually killed by an Archer class!!!
It was one of those rare times when he was impatience and crossed water un-stealthed while both Vanish and Heal-pots were down.
The Archer got in perfect position and executed with perfect timing.
The Assassin was too far away to close the gap before getting knocked down to 20% by being shot 3-4 times.
The Assassin was too close to simply turn and run out of range before being shot 3 times, run down and shot again & run down and shot again.
The Dev VOWED to NEVER let THAT happen AGAIN!!! So they increased the movement speed in water so that ALL people would be able to run away from Archer classes without ever dying to one. So... basically they through out the logic of people swimming slower than they could run so that they could weaken Archers...
It is completely OK for an Assassin to be able to one-shot some people from stealth and slow those who live so they can not ever run away... but NEVER acceptable for an Archer to be able to actually kill someone from range without any awake target simply being able to run out of range.
They would NERF Archers even more if they thought they could get away with it... but their BIAS is obvious to anyone who has actually played.
They thought people wouldn't even recognize this as a steath-nerf to Archers...
BTW... The insta-drowning was another stealth-nerf to Archers.
There were some Archers who shot someone for zero damage (or were able to get off 2 shots and do 25% damage to someone before they noticed) and were able to run away without getting killed.
Archers who dove underwater to try and get away had to actually be ran down to be killed.
That was considered too much work needed to kill an Archer... So they changed those rules in another disregard of logic.
There were some LOS issues with water but in the message where they announced the insta-drowning they also announced that those were fixed.
Sorry Dude...
The speed was changed because one of the Devs had their Assassin actually killed by an Archer class!!!
It was one of those rare times when he was impatience and crossed water un-stealthed while both Vanish and Heal-pots were down.
The Archer got in perfect position and executed with perfect timing.
The Assassin was too far away to close the gap before getting knocked down to 20% by being shot 3-4 times.
The Assassin was too close to simply turn and run out of range before being shot 3 times, run down and shot again & run down and shot again.
The Dev VOWED to NEVER let THAT happen AGAIN!!! So they increased the movement speed in water so that ALL people would be able to run away from Archer classes without ever dying to one. So... basically they through out the logic of people swimming slower than they could run so that they could weaken Archers...
It is completely OK for an Assassin to be able to one-shot some people from stealth and slow those who live so they can not ever run away... but NEVER acceptable for an Archer to be able to actually kill someone from range without any awake target simply being able to run out of range.
They would NERF Archers even more if they thought they could get away with it... but their BIAS is obvious to anyone who has actually played.
They thought people wouldn't even recognize this as a steath-nerf to Archers...
BTW... The insta-drowning was another stealth-nerf to Archers.
There were some Archers who shot someone for zero damage (or were able to get off 2 shots and do 25% damage to someone before they noticed) and were able to run away without getting killed.
Archers who dove underwater to try and get away had to actually be ran down to be killed.
That was considered too much work needed to kill an Archer... So they changed those rules in another disregard of logic.
There were some LOS issues with water but in the message where they announced the insta-drowning they also announced that those were fixed.
Sorry Dude...
Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:59 PM
by
Sepplord
On topic: i kind of agree with lolhisups second comment where he explains it thoroughly BUT weren't there always potions that gave you runspeed while swimming?
If i remember that wrong, please correct me, but if i am not...are we complaining about free pot-effects instead of having another use-items that we have to stack and use all the time?
Tue 9 Jul 2019 8:29 PM
by
lurker
IKR ^^
Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:59 PMOn topic: i kind of agree with lolhisups second comment where he explains it thoroughly BUT weren't there always potions that gave you runspeed while swimming?
If i remember that wrong, please correct me, but if i am not...are we complaining about free pot-effects instead of having another use-items that we have to stack and use all the time?
Waters pots came with the release of ToA. Prior to that water always slowed you and you could not dive. So not always, certainly not in any 'classic' period.
Obviously water pots were always a thing as far as NF was concerned and I guess that's where the issue arises here, we have a mix of both worlds.
Wed 10 Jul 2019 11:07 AM
by
Kampfar
Fribrand Made my day 😂
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:08 PM
by
ialocin
You spoke my mind. Waterspeed currently ruins so many tactical elements that it's almost sad.
It's especially visible in Thid and now that we have NF also in 50 rvr.
Please fix this.
It's especially visible in Thid and now that we have NF also in 50 rvr.
Please fix this.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 9:25 PM
by
Lollie
Didn't they change the water speed to stop some form of abuse by sprinting and walking backwards or something?
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:37 PM
by
kiectred
Fribrand wrote: ↑Tue 9 Jul 2019 6:19 PMDude... If you have played here long enough... you would know what happened.
The speed was changed because one of the Devs had their Assassin actually killed by an Archer class!!!
It was one of those rare times when he was impatience and crossed water un-stealthed while both Vanish and Heal-pots were down.
The Archer got in perfect position and executed with perfect timing.
The Assassin was too far away to close the gap before getting knocked down to 20% by being shot 3-4 times.
The Assassin was too close to simply turn and run out of range before being shot 3 times, run down and shot again & run down and shot again.
The Dev VOWED to NEVER let THAT happen AGAIN!!! So they increased the movement speed in water so that ALL people would be able to run away from Archer classes without ever dying to one. So... basically they through out the logic of people swimming slower than they could run so that they could weaken Archers...
It is completely OK for an Assassin to be able to one-shot some people from stealth and slow those who live so they can not ever run away... but NEVER acceptable for an Archer to be able to actually kill someone from range without any awake target simply being able to run out of range.
They would NERF Archers even more if they thought they could get away with it... but their BIAS is obvious to anyone who has actually played.
They thought people wouldn't even recognize this as a steath-nerf to Archers...
BTW... The insta-drowning was another stealth-nerf to Archers.
There were some Archers who shot someone for zero damage (or were able to get off 2 shots and do 25% damage to someone before they noticed) and were able to run away without getting killed.
Archers who dove underwater to try and get away had to actually be ran down to be killed.
That was considered too much work needed to kill an Archer... So they changed those rules in another disregard of logic.
There were some LOS issues with water but in the message where they announced the insta-drowning they also announced that those were fixed.
Sorry Dude...
Fucking beautiful. This is now my bible, and you're my Pope.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 2:25 AM
by
Isavyr
I also didn't understand the implications of this when it was first posted. I liked it in combination with the no-diving rule and no water pots/RAs, because it effectively killed water PvP, which I found to be really poorly implemented in DAOC.
However, it also killed a tactical situation which created bridge choke-points. I think the original water speed penalty was too severe, but it was undesirable to kill choke-points altogether. I think the best mix would be something like a 20-30% water speed penalty, with still no-diving, no water pots, no water RAs.
Speaking of which, NF in general has too few choke-points and I think they should remedy this by adding mobs on land to create somewhat predictable corridors.
However, it also killed a tactical situation which created bridge choke-points. I think the original water speed penalty was too severe, but it was undesirable to kill choke-points altogether. I think the best mix would be something like a 20-30% water speed penalty, with still no-diving, no water pots, no water RAs.
Speaking of which, NF in general has too few choke-points and I think they should remedy this by adding mobs on land to create somewhat predictable corridors.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:50 AM
by
ExcretusMaximus
I'd be fine with it remaining the way it is if they just stopped you from moving at full sprint when holding your backward move key...
Wed 18 Sep 2019 3:41 AM
by
Fribrand
Bump...
Just because my previous post is close enough to the truth to make me laugh... and cry.
Just because my previous post is close enough to the truth to make me laugh... and cry.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 9:51 AM
by
Caemma
Just leave the water swim speed as it was supposed to be in the first place, easy peasy.
If you cross the water, you know you could be potentially in danger.
If you cross the water, you know you could be potentially in danger.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 10:18 AM
by
Sepplord
i wouldn't like slow swimspeed, but backpedaling shouldn't be as fast as swimming forward, that is too anti-melee in waterfights
Tue 24 Sep 2019 11:02 AM
by
Cadebrennus
Slow forward, slow backwards. Water should be a barrier, not an exploitable resource.
Tue 24 Sep 2019 12:47 PM
by
Razur Ur
PLZ with RA Master of Swimming 5 :-D
Wed 2 Oct 2019 3:12 PM
by
Cadebrennus
Wed 15 Apr 2020 7:02 PM
by
stewbeedoo
Making some good sense here!
Underwater fights on LIve were dumb and I'm glad we don't have them here.
As well as reducing swim movement speed (especially backwards), I would also like smaller char models changed so they are visible in water. They are effectively underwater and invisible currently, which is unfair since the larger char models cannot go underwater.
Underwater fights on LIve were dumb and I'm glad we don't have them here.
As well as reducing swim movement speed (especially backwards), I would also like smaller char models changed so they are visible in water. They are effectively underwater and invisible currently, which is unfair since the larger char models cannot go underwater.
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